在雅利安人征服之前，欧洲土著是什么样子的?(下)
What did native Europeans look like before the Aryan people conquered?
译文简介
欧洲的印欧化(或者至少是绝大多数)当时实际上仍在进行，在完全不同的环境和社会文化景观下，当罗马在整个大陆扩张，吸收伊比利亚人、阿基坦人、雷西亚人、伊特鲁里亚人、撒丁人等等。
正文翻译
What did native Europeans look like before the Aryan people conquered?
在雅利安人征服之前，欧洲土著是什么样子的?
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6 - The Proto-Indo-European steppe peoples, who the OP described as “Aryans”, were themselves European people. As it happened in the Near East and elsewhere, what occurred was a process of intermingling of different peoples from the same region, homogeneizing throughout millennia.
So, the Proto-Indo-Europeans weren’t completely unknown outsiders that came from very distant lands to people Europe. They were already in the easternmost areas of Europe and most probably formed their genetic, linguistic and socio-cultural makeup right there, mainly in what is now Ukraine and Southwestern Russia, but soon extending further to neighboring steppe areas in what is now Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary (Yamnaya expansion). As early as the Suvorovo-Novodanilovka cultural group, centuries before the Yamnaya, there was already a demic movement toward the Balkans from the Ukrainian steppes.
（接上篇）
欧洲的印欧化(或者至少是绝大多数)当时实际上仍在进行，在完全不同的环境和社会文化景观下，当罗马在整个大陆扩张，吸收伊比利亚人、阿基坦人、雷西亚人、伊特鲁里亚人、撒丁人等等。
原始印欧语系的草原民族，被提问者称为“雅利安人”，他们本身就是欧洲人。正如在近东和其他地方所发生的一样，发生的是一个来自同一区域的不同民族在数千年里融合在一起的过程。
所以，原始印欧人并不是完全不为人知的外来者，他们并非来自遥远的地方然后来到欧洲。他们已经在欧洲的最东部地区，很可能在那里形成了他们的基因、语言和社会文化组成，主要是在现在的乌克兰和俄罗斯西南部，但很快进一步扩展到现在的罗马尼亚、保加利亚和匈牙利的邻近草原地区(颜那亚人扩张)。
早在苏沃洛沃-新沃达尼洛夫卡文化群体时期，比颜那亚人早了几个世纪，就已经有一场从乌克兰大草原向巴尔干地区的人群流动。
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7 - The Proto-Indo-Europeans certainly looked different from the majority of the other Europeans outside easternmost Europe. But not much in terms of skin, eye and hair color. They were, in their large majority, a brown-eyed, brown-haired and moderately light-skinned (“olive-complexioned”) people just like the majority of other Europeans by the time of their expansion in the late 4th/early 3rd millennium B.C. Just like the other Europeans, they also had a minority of blue and green-eyed as well as blond and red-haired people, but they weren’t part of the typical look in them. The true “boom” of light hair and eye features would happen gradually during the long Indo-Europeanization of Europe, in the last 5,000 yeas. That helps explain why some people, like the Iberians, have as much as ~30% Yamnaya-related admixture, but aren’t even nearly ~30% light-haired and/or light-eyed, and the Irish, who are as much as ~50–55% Yamnaya-related in genetic composition, are mostly brown-haired.
从基因上讲，原印欧人也是一个非常欧洲化的民族，尽管他们与生活在欧洲大陆其他地区的欧洲人属于不同的基因群，但大多数人都是新石器时代安纳托利亚人和西欧狩猎采集者(WHG)的混合，可以追溯到公元前7000年到4500年农业在整个欧洲的传播。
颜那亚和早期绳纹陶器文化的民族在其中的比例很小，但不可忽略(平均约10%)，来自新石器时代的欧洲/安纳托利亚农民的融合。所以很明显他们经常和前者接触。
原始印欧人显然与欧洲最东端以外的大多数欧洲人不同。但在皮肤、眼睛和头发颜色方面没有太多变化。他们绝大多数都是棕色眼睛，棕色头发，中度浅肤色(“橄榄色肤色”)，就像公元前4世纪晚期到公元前3世纪初欧洲扩张时期的大多数欧洲人一样。他们中也有少数蓝眼睛和绿眼睛的人，也有少数金发和红头发的人，但他们不属于典型的长相。真正的浅色头发和眼睛的“大爆炸”是在过去5000年欧洲漫长的印欧化过程中逐渐发生的。这有助于解释为什么一些人，如伊比利亚人，有高达30%的颜那亚相关的融合，但却没有近30%的浅头发和/或浅眼睛，而爱尔兰人，有高达50-55%的颜那亚相关的基因组成，但大部分是棕色头发的原因。
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What did make the Proto-Indo-Europeans different in looks were their skull and facial structure. They were mainly descendants of the Eastern European and Caucasian hunter-gatherers from the Mesolithic era, whereas the majority of other Europeans were mainly descendants of the Anatolian and Western/Central European hunter-gatherers from that same era. In any case, all those populations were, in the large majority of their genetic makeup, West Eurasian all the same, and they shared a lot of deeper levels of ancestry. So, on a broader level, they certainly didn’t look *that* different, certainly not like completely different “races” would be perceived nowadays. Generally, in comparison with those other Europeans descending from the earlier Neolithic agriculturists, the Proto-Indo-Europeans were taller, more robust, with less gracile features, larger and more pronounced jaw line. That goes in line with modern observations that Northern Europeans, who tend to have the most Yamnaya-related admixture (particularly Scandinavians), are less gracile and have “sharper” features than Southern Europeans, who received relatively less Yamnaya-related genetic input.
8 - Genetically as well as physically, the descendants of Neolithic European agriculturists were very much similar to the modern Sardinian people, who are the modern humans that have best preserved their genetic makeup, despite some degree of mixing and, of course, some changes by natural and sexual sextion as well as by genetic drift over the millennia.
真正让原始印欧人在外貌上与众不同的是他们的头骨和面部结构。他们主要是来自中石器时代的东欧和高加索狩猎采集者的后代，而其他大多数欧洲人主要是来自同一时代的安纳托利亚人和西欧/中欧狩猎采集者的后代。在任何情况下，所有这些人口，在他们的基因组成的绝大部分上，都是一样的西欧亚人，他们共享很多更深层次的祖先。所以，在更广泛的层面上，他们看起来并没有那么不同，当然也不像现在人们所认为的完全不同的“种族”。
一般来说，与新石器时代早期农业劳作者的后代相比，原始印欧人更高、更强壮，五官不那么纤细，下颌线更大、更明显。这与现代的观察结果一致，北欧人往往拥有最多的与颜那亚相关的混合基因(尤其是斯堪的纳维亚人)，他们比南欧人更壮实，拥有“更尖锐”的特征，而南欧人接受的与颜那亚相关的基因输入相对较少。
在基因和身体上，现代撒丁岛人与新石器时代欧洲农业劳作者的后代非常相似，撒丁岛人最好地保存了他们的基因组成的现代人，尽管在一定程度上也有融合。当然，由于自然和性别选择以及数千年来的基因漂变，他们有一些变化。
Brian Valerie
Thank you for the clear and excellent explanation, Ygor. You mention that in some cases the Indo-Europeans “…were the ones that ultimately got more linguistically and culturally absorbed by the pre-Indo-European natives.” Is that a question not only of relative percentages, but perhaps also of gradual versus more acute migration, or even the level of civilization, as in the case of the Etruscans?
谢谢你清晰而精彩的解释。
你提到，在某些情况下，印欧人“在语言和文化上最终被原始印欧人的原住民吸收得更多。”这不仅是一个相对比例的问题，也许也是一个渐进、剧烈的迁移的问题，甚至是文明水平的问题，就像伊特鲁里亚人的情况一样?
（注：伊特鲁里亚人后被罗马人吸收）
Both the question and (most of) the answers are unmitigated disasters. Thanks to the recent advent of ancient DNA analysis, we actually have a right answer to this wrong question.
The premise of this question is wrong because “Aryans” never even came to Europe. Unless you’re still stuck on 1930s Nazi science, “Aryans” refers to Indo-Iranians. Where do you think the word “Aryan” even comes from? It’s where we get the word “Iran” (“Persia” is a Greek exonym). Iranians are literally the Aryans you’re looking for, and they didn’t conquer Europe.
As for the “conquest” idea, yes, there was a group that is believed to have conquered most of Europe some 6,000 to 5,000 years ago. They go by a number of names, and we’re still not sure yet if they were one group, or multiple, or if they came in different waves. The most common name for these people(s?) is: “Yamnaya”.
这个问题也好，这里很多的答案也好都是不折不扣的灾难。多亏了古代DNA分析技术的出现，我们实际上对这个错误的问题有了正确的答案。
这个问题的前提是错误的，因为“雅利安人”甚至从未来到欧洲。除非你还纠结于20世纪30年代的纳粹科学，否则“雅利安人”指的是印度-伊朗人。你以为雅利安人这个词是怎么来的? 这就是“伊朗”(Iran)这个词的由来(“Persia”是希腊外来词)。伊朗人就是你要找的雅利安人，他们没有征服欧洲。
至于“征服”的想法，是的，有一个群体被认为在大约6000到5000年前征服了欧洲的大部分地区。它们有很多名字，我们还不确定它们是一个群体，还是多个群体。这些人最常见的名字是:“颜那亚”。链接略
This genetic map shows the distribution of Yamnaya DNA, and it posits, based solely on the concentration, that the Yamnaya originated in northern Europe. The archeological evidence stands against this though, and points towards a Ukrainian steppe origin. This is the current consensus if we assume that the Yamnaya were the Indo-Europeans (or at least related). This assumption is not universally accepted.
Other names that have been associated with the Yamnaya include: “Corded Ware Culture”, and “Bell Beaker Culture”. These two refer to unique archeological specimens found in northeast and northwest Europe respectively. Corded Ware appears to be based around an ethnicity, whereas Bell Beaker seems more cultural, with a greater diversity in genetic lines. This meshes well with the idea that the Yamanya population replacement petered out as it moved westward.
这张基因图显示了颜那亚人DNA的分布，仅根据浓度推测，颜那亚人起源于北欧。然而，考古证据与此相反，并指向乌克兰草原起源。这是目前的共识，如果我们假设颜那亚是印欧人的话(或至少相关)。但这种假设并没有被普遍接受。
其他与颜那亚有关的名字包括:“绳纹陶器文化”，和“贝尔（钟型）大口杯文化”（注：百度查到国内译为“钟杯文化”）。这两个是分别在欧洲东北部和西北部发现的独特的考古标本。绳纹陶器似乎是基于一个种族，而钟杯文化似乎文化水平更高，具有更大的遗传系多样性。这与颜那亚人口更替随着向西迁移而逐渐消失的观点非常吻合。
There are some enclaves where “Old Europeans” held out against Yamnaya influence. In the modern day, it’s just Sardinia which seems to have very low Yamnaya DNA (despite speaking an Indo-European language). Historically, it seems parts of Tuscany, Corsica and Sicily held out as we know from the historical record that that non-Indo-European languages were spoken there (Etruscan & Sicani).
In the modern world, the last linguistic holdouts against Indo-European are Basque and perhaps Finnish. Hungarian came in much later in the 9th century AD.
通常认为是颜那亚人的最后一个话题，可能也是最有争议的，是“印欧语系”或“原印欧语系”。传统上，这两个词指的是一个语系，但随着古代DNA的突破，它现在可以被标记为一个真实的人群。正如前面提到的，这种联系仍然存在争议，尽管考古学和语言学的证据有力地表明，颜那亚人确实是印欧人。
在一些飞地中，“老欧洲人”坚持反对颜那亚的影响。在现代，只有撒丁岛似乎才有非常低的颜那亚 DNA(尽管说一种印欧语言)。历史上，托斯卡纳、科西嘉和西西里岛的部分地区似乎保留了我们从历史记录中知道的非印欧语系(伊特鲁里亚语和西卡尼语)。
在现代世界，对抗印欧语系的最后一种语言是巴斯克语，也许还有芬兰语。匈牙利语是在公元9世纪才传入的。
ONE, Early hunter-gatherersWe have very little genetic evidence of these people. They seem to have interbred with the Neandertals and used rudimentary stone tools.
TWO, Neolithic farmersThese people seem to have come from the Near East (where farming was first invented) and their most genetically pure descendants survive in Sardinia. In terms of languages, it’s just Basque. They used only stone tools, and do not seem to have caught on with the Copper Age of the Near East. They’re sometimes referred to as the “Old Europeans”.
THREE, Bronze age steppe peoples, the YamnayaThe Yamnaya arrived in Europe with a few key innovations: bronze, the domesticated horse, and the wheel. These technological innovations gave the Yamnaya a massive competitive advantage over the “Old Europeans”. Whom they either displaced entirely or subsumed through intermarriage.
The spread of bronze is one of the key ways that Yamnaya migrations have been tracked. It seems that only the Near East and Indus Valley experienced the Copper Age, and elsewhere farmers jumped straight from stone tools to bronze, suggesting that there was outside influence, likely from the Yamnaya.
让我们退一步，把它放在接下来要谈论的背景中。
一般来说，根据最新的古代DNA分析，欧洲似乎经历了三次主要的移民浪潮:
1. 早期的狩猎
我们几乎没有这些人的基因证据。他们似乎与尼安德特人杂交并使用原始石器。
2. 新石器时代的农民
这些人似乎来自近东(农业最早发明的地方)，他们基因最纯正的后代生活在撒丁岛。就语言而言，只有巴斯克语。他们只使用石器，似乎没有在近东的铜器时代流行起来。他们有时被称为“老欧洲人”。
3. 青铜器时代的草原民族，颜那亚人
颜那亚人抵达欧洲时，带来了一些关键的创新：青铜、驯养的马和轮子。这些技术创新给了颜那亚相对于“老欧洲人”巨大的竞争优势。他们要么完全取代了这些人，要么通过异族通婚将他们收归己有。
青铜的传播是追踪颜那亚迁徙的关键途径之一。似乎只有近东和印度河流域经历了青铜器时代，其他地方的农民直接从石器过渡到青铜，这表明有外界的影响，很可能来自颜那亚。
The hunter gatherers are the Children of the Forest
The Neolithic farmers are the First Men
The Yamnaya are the Andals
So what did the “Old Europeans” look like?
The short of it is that they looked like the people of the modern Near East. Dark eyed, dark haired, and tanned complexion. Given that they migrated to Europe from the Near East, this is not difficult to believe, and is supported by DNA analysis on their remains.
Of more controversy is what the hunter-gatherers that these Neolithic farmers replaced looked like. DNA reconstructions of these people is far shakier, and suggestions have been made of light colored eyes with darker skin tones. But this is hotly debated, and I don’t want to get into it, because it seems to be more a political issue now than anything scientific.
I won’t post any lixs to bias your own research. If you’re interested, there’s plenty out there. But I’d stick to JSTOR.
对于《权力的游戏》的粉丝们来说:
采猎者是森林之子；
新石器时代的农民是先民；
颜那亚是安达尔人
那么“老欧洲人”长什么样呢?
简而言之，他们看起来像现代近东人。黑眼睛，黑头发，皮肤黝黑。考虑到他们是从近东迁移到欧洲的，这一点不难相信，而且他们遗骸上的DNA分析也支持这一点。链接略
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更有争议的是这些新石器时代的农民所取代的狩猎采集者长什么样。对这些人的DNA重建就不那么可靠了，有人认为是浅色眼睛和深色肤色的人。但这是一个激烈的争论，我不想深入讨论它，因为它现在看起来更像是一个政治问题，而不是任何科学问题。
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Since this is Quora, and a certain nationality loves to chime in whenever the topic of Indo-European origins comes up with claims that the the Indo-Europeans / Yamnaya originated in their country and not on the Ukrainian steppe. I will just post this rather comprehensive video debunking this claim:
It’s rather long, but TL;DR: the claim that the Yamnaya originated in this country and then migrated westward to sex up the white European women of Old Europe is complete garbage and goes against the genetic, archeological, and historical evidence (the historical evidence being the Rigveda, which comes from their country to begin with).
This is not to say that everyone in this country subscribes to the “our ancestors shagged your hot white mom” school, only that if you hear people making this claim, you know where to shove it.
最后一点
因为这是Quora，每当印欧起源的话题被提出时，某个民族就喜欢插话，声称印欧人/ 颜那亚起源于他们的国家，而不是乌克兰草原。我将发布一段相当全面的视频来驳斥这种说法:视频略
这部视频相当长，但注意：声称颜那亚人起源于这个国家，然后向西迁移，与旧欧洲的欧洲白人女性交配，这完全是无稽之谈，与基因、考古学和历史证据相悖(历史证据是梨俱吠陀，它最初来自他们的国家)。
这并不是说这个国家的每个人都赞同“我们的祖先和你性感的白人妈妈上过床”的说法，只是说如果你听到有人这样说，你就知道该往哪推了。
Wow. People actually confuse the Aryan movement into India with Europe. That’s scary.
哇，人们事实上混淆了雅利安人进入印度和欧洲的运动。这是可怕的。
Well, misunderstanding of the Aryan migration caused a world war.
It was why Himmler sent an expedition to Tibet in 1939 to see if remnants of the “Aryans” (who he believed originated in Germany) existed there. He had his researchers measure Tibetan faces and skulls (phrenology) to see if they had “Aryan blood”.
Needless to say, they didn’t.
对雅利安人移民的误解导致了世界大战。
这就是为什么希姆莱在1939年派遣了一支远征队到西藏，看看“雅利安人”(他认为雅利安人起源于德国)的残余是否存在于那里。他让他的研究人员测量西藏人的脸和头骨(颅相学)，看他们是否有“雅利安人的血统”。
不用说，他们没有。
There was more to the cause of war than a “simple” misunderstanding of Aryan migration. That is putting the cart in front of the horse. I’d argue it’s more accurate to say the misunderstanding of Aryan migration was one of the excuses for war.
Also, more generally, at least from modern mainstream western anthropology (I don’t have knowledge of eastern) has ceased trying to group peoples by race. Now they’re moving to group them by linguistics only. Due to the intermingling of the groups it’s often difficult to pinpoint both geographical and true genetic origins.
战争的起因不仅仅是对雅利安人移民的“简单”误解。那是本末倒置。我认为更准确的说法是对雅利安人移民的误解是发动战争的借口之一。
而且，更普遍地说，至少从现代主流西方人类学(我不了解东方人类学)来看，已经不再试图按种族将人们分组。现在他们只根据语言来进行分类。由于这些群体的混杂，通常很难确定地理和真正的基因起源。
Another great post! It always puzzles me when people try to equate linguistic heritage with genetics, as it should be pretty obvious that they move in different ways, and that human history is so much longer than just the few thousand years that we can trace (and guesstimate) the roots of our current languages.
另一篇优秀的答案！
当人们试图将语言遗产等同于基因时，我总是感到困惑，因为很明显，它们以不同的方式移动，而且人类历史比我们可以追溯(并猜测)当前语言的起源的几千年要长得多。
The relation between linguistics and genetic heritage is an extremely close one, so it’s not unusual to use the two together in analysis.
The fact is, adults are very bad at learning a second language, especially in an era without writing or public education. So if a population speaks the same language as their forefathers from millennia ago, then there’s very likely a genetic connection as well. And this is the case with the Yamnaya as far as we can discern.
There are a few exceptions to this. Some peoples have managed to learn a completely foreign language over the span of centuries, but this is almost always the result of imperial management, and is limited to literate societies. Having a written language makes it easier to teach.
Good examples of imperial languages overcoming genetic barriers is the spread of Latin as the Romance languages, or the spread of Old and Middle Chinese. Both of these languages converted over people who previously spoke an unrelated language, and the process took centuries.
语言学和基因遗传之间的关系极其密切，所以在分析中把两者结合起来使用并不罕见。
事实上，成年人非常不擅长学习第二语言，尤其是在一个没有文字和公共教育的时代。所以，如果一个种群和他们几千年前的祖先说着同样的语言，那么它们很可能也有基因联系。据我们所知，这就是颜那亚的情况。
但也有一些例外。有些民族在几个世纪的时间里学会了一门完全不同的外语，但这几乎都是帝国管理的结果，而且仅限于有文化的社会。有了一种书面语言，教起来更容易。
帝国语言克服遗传障碍的好例子是拉丁语作为罗曼语的传播，或者古汉语和中古汉语的传播。这两种语言都是在之前说一种不相关语言的人身上转换的，这个过程花费了几个世纪。
What is the primary purpose of the end note?
The evidence I have seen would suggest the reverse, that there was a considerable migration of peoples from the Eurasian steppe into India and a subsequent intermingling that led to considerable Eurasian DNA entering the population, highest in North Indians and Brahmins, lowest in isolated tribal peoples in the South East and untouchables.
This also makes sense, there is a skin colour gradient in the caste system, and genetic compositions within castes tend to be preserved since castes almost ever inter-marry.
This seems to be the conclusion of the video you cited.
This makes sense for several reasons, the lands of India are fertile and attractive for any group, especially those living in mountainous, cold, inarable Central Asia.
There is an obvious distinction in both genetic heritage, language and culture between North and South Indians, this must come from somewhere. The use of the Devanagari scxt in the North and the Tamil scxt in the far south is the most obvious example.
结尾注的主要目的是什么?
我所看到的证据恰恰相反，当时有大量来自欧亚大草原的民族迁移到印度，随后的混合导致大量欧亚DNA进入人南亚，在北印度人和婆罗门人中比例最高，在东南部孤立的部落和贱民中最低。
这也说得通，种姓制度中有肤色梯度，种姓内部的基因组成往往被保留下来，因为种姓几乎从不通婚。
这似乎是你引用的视频的结论。
There is an obvious distinction in both genetic heritage, language and culture between North and South Indians, this must come from somewhere. The use of the Devanagari scxt in the North and the Tamil scxt in the far south is the most obvious example.
这有几个原因，印度土地肥沃，对任何群体都有吸引力，特别是那些生活在多山、寒冷、不可耕的中亚地区的人。
南印度人和北印度人在基因遗传、语言和文化上都有明显的区别，这肯定是有原因的。北方的Devanagari文字和遥远南方的泰米尔文字是最明显的例子。
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Yes, mainstream Western scholarship 100% supports the “into India” migration. However, Indian scholarship, even at official academic levels, insists on either a “out of India” theory, despite the total weight of evidence suggesting otherwise.
But if you casually Google the topic, you’ll likely get hit with some of these Indian claims, so I wanted to debunk them before they get raised in the comments.
主流西方学者100%支持“进入印度”的说法。然而，印度学者，即使是在官方学术层面，也坚持一种“印度以外”的理论，尽管大量证据表明事实并非如此。
但如果你漫不经心地谈论这个话题，你可能会被这些印度人的说法难住，所以我想在他们在评论中提出之前揭穿他们。