在地球和月球完全形成之前，金星在更小的太阳的适居带存在了几十亿年，这是真的吗?
Is it true that before the Earth was fully completed, with an orbiting Moon, Venus had several billion years in our younger smaller Sun''s Goldilocks Zone?
译文简介
是的，金星表面一半以上的温度足以融化铅，基本上地球上所有的深海底部都是如此。然而，就像地球一样，金星有几座大陆板块，其边缘比死海底部高出2000多米。
正文翻译
Is it true that before the Earth was fully completed, with an orbiting Moon, Venus had several billion years in our younger smaller Sun's Goldilocks Zone?
在地球和月球完全形成之前，金星在更小的太阳的适居带存在了几十亿年，这是真的吗?
评论翻译
相关链接
-
- 铁路上的阳光：太阳能火车能使铁路运输更加环保 2022/12/29 4817 9 2
-
- 如果我们用核武器攻击太阳会发生什么？ 2022/09/03 8246 32 2
-
- 除了英国，欧洲各地对太阳能的需求激增 2022/09/01 6590 10 2
-
- 大家真的认为我们在1969年登上了月球，哈哈哈哈 2022/08/29 13740 87 2
-
- 近期袭击地球的可能性大，最大规模的太阳耀斑及其可能造成的巨大损 2022/08/26 6143 5 2
-
- 月球上居然有水？！嫦娥五号带来最新研究成果！ 2022/06/22 20742 32 2
-
- 话题讨论：为什么除了美国以外，其他国家没有把人送上月球？ 2022/06/12 18289 49 2
-
- 木星真的大到没有绕太阳运转吗? 2022/06/04 11394 17 2
Yes, and it still is.
The habitable zone, also known as the "Goldilocks Zone", is the region around a star where the average temperature on a planet allows for liquid water with which to make porridge. After all, Earth isn't the only planet in the Sun's Goldilocks Zone - Venus is actually in the habitable zone, however, its thick atmosphere prevents temperatures for life as we know it to exist. "Venus is Earth's sister planet, both are about the same size and in the same region of the solar system, and Venus once also had water," Professor Webb said.
Venus may have had a shallow liquid-water ocean and habitable surface temperatures for up to 2 billion years of its early history, according to computer modeling of the planet's ancient climate by scientists at NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) in New York.
是的，现在依然如此。
宜居带，是一颗恒星周围的区域，在那里行星的平均温度允许液态水“煮粥”。毕竟，地球并不是太阳适居带中唯一的行星——金星实际上也是在宜居带中。然而，正如我们所知，它厚厚的大气层阻止了适宜生命存在的温度。
韦伯教授说:“金星是地球的姐妹行星，两颗行星的大小相同，在太阳系的同一区域，金星曾经也有水。”
根据美国国家航空航天局戈达德空间研究所(GISS)的科学家对金星古代气候的计算机建模，在其早期历史中，金星可能有一个浅水海洋和适宜居住的表面温度，时间长达20亿年。
Actually there is a region within Venus’ atmosphere where temperatures and pressure are pretty decent. Only its surface is hell…
实际上，在金星的大气层中有一个区域的温度和压力都相当不错。只是它的表面是地狱。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
We should build a “Cloud City” like in Empire Strikes Back.
A human-compatible atmosphere of 80% N2 and 20% O2 would provide plenty of buoyancy in the dense Venetian atmosphere.
我们应该像《帝国反击战》那样建造一座“云城”。
在与人类兼容的大气中，80%的N2和20%的O2可以为人类提供充足的浮力。
“Why bother when mars exists”: I think is the main argument against that.
“既然火星存在，为什么要这么麻烦”。
我认为这是反对这一观点的主要论据。
I think the main response is “because mars has 1/3 the gravity, which makes moving and building easier, but living there - both due to gravity’s effect on the human body and being able to retain an atmosphere - harder.”
It’s a fascinating debate overall, and one that usually gets oversimplified. I’m not qualified to say that one is obxtively better than the other, but it won’t do to ignore Venus entirely just because cultural inertia has pointed us at Mars for so long.
我认为主要的回应是“因为火星的重力只有地球的1/3，这使得移动和建造更容易，但生活在那里，由于重力对人体的影响和保持大气的能力，会更难。”
总的来说，这是一场引人入胜的辩论，而且通常会被过分简化。我没有资格说一个在客观上比另一个好，但不能仅仅因为文化惯性把就我们指向火星而完全忽略金星。
There is one other place in the solar system where you could walk around with just a breathing mask - about 35 miles (56 km) above the surface of Venus. You’re shielded from radiation, the air pressure is about half of Earth’s at sea level (uncomfortable but you’d get used to it), you’re above the sulfuric acid clouds and the temperature is about 80 F (27 c). The atmosphere is carbon dioxide so you’d just need a backpack with air to breathe. And something to stand on, like this:
在太阳系中还有一个地方，你可以戴着呼吸罩四处走动——在金星表面上空约35英里(56公里)处。你不会受到辐射，气压大约是地球海平面的一半(不舒服，但你会习惯的)，你在硫酸云的上方，温度约为80华氏度(27摄氏度)。大气中是二氧化碳，所以你只需要一个携带空气的背包就可以呼吸。还有可以站在上面的东西，就像这样:
Saul Martino
Sssshhhh don't tell Elon.
嘘……别告诉埃隆马斯克。
Head down to your local safety supply store for an acid hazmat suit, cause of the sulfuric acid clouds! But you’re quite right, totally survivable if you can keep the rain off you.
去你当地的安全用品商店买一件酸性危险防护服，因为那里有硫酸云!但你说得很对，如果你不被雨淋到，你完全可以生存。
At 35 miles, you’re above the sulfuric acid clouds. Sulfuric acid is about twice as heavy as water and Venus’s strong gravity pulls it close (and that helps explain the high atmospheric pressure). I’ll amend my answer to clarify that.
在35英里处，你在硫酸云之上。硫酸的重量大约是水的两倍，而金星的强大引力将其拉近(这有助于解释为什么会有高气压)。我将修改我的回答来澄清这一点。
The reason Venus had liquid water is that about 2–3 billion years ago the Sun luminosity was 40% dimmer than now. When the luminosity increased, Venus entered a runaway greenhouse effect that turned it to a hellish world.
金星上有液态水的原因是大约20 - 30亿年前，当时太阳的光度比现在低40%。当光度增加时，金星进入了失控的温室效应，把它变成了一个地狱般的世界。
No, the major reason Venus no longer has water, is its magnetic field weakened. Venus actually spins “backwards” (the opposite direction of the other planets) and it rotates very slowly (for a body the same size as the Earth a Venutian day is 116 days 18hr). Most likely a collision much like the one that created the Earth’s moon, hit Venus and messed up its rotation.
Without a rapid rotation, Venus’ magnetic dynamo slowed, and without a strong magnetic field the Sun’s UVs (and other radiation) ionized the atmosphere, and caused the hydrogen in water and methane molecules to be stripped away, they then formed sulfuric compounds and carbon dioxide starting a runaway greenhouse effect.
But even worse without surface water, Venus’ tectonic action stopped (scientist are just starting to understand how ocean’s water “lubricates” tectonic action) and instead overpowered volcanism on the planet adding even more carbon monoxide and sulfuric acid to the atmosphere, over-thickening it and adding to both the greenhouse effect, but also the “hot blanket” of a thick atmosphere.
Bottom line the same kind of collision that created the moon and likely helped make the Earth more habitable (waves, moon helps shield the Earth from some asteroids, etc.) made Venus a hellscape.
不，金星不再有水的主要原因是它的磁场减弱了。金星实际上是“反向”旋转的(与其他行星的方向相反)，而且它旋转得非常慢(对于一个与地球相同大小的天体来说，金星一天是116天18小时)。最有可能是爆发了一次就像地球和月球一样的碰撞，撞击了金星，扰乱了它的旋转。
如果没有快速的旋转，金星的磁发就会减弱，如果没有强磁场，太阳的紫外线(和其他辐射)就会电离大气，导致水中的氢和甲烷分子被剥离。然后它们形成了硫化物和二氧化碳，开始了失控的温室效应。
但更糟糕的是，由于没有地表水，金星的构造活动停止了(科学家刚刚开始了解海水是如何“润滑”构造活动的)，相反，金星强大的火山活动向大气中添加了更多的一氧化碳和硫酸，使其过度增厚，不仅增加了温室效应，还进一步增厚了大气层的“热毯”。
最重要的是，同样的碰撞创造了月球，并可能帮助使地球更适合居住(海浪、月球帮助保护地球免受一些小行星的影响等等)，使金星成为一个地狱。
Great comment. But wouldn’t such a collision have left a moon around Venus? Venus has no moon. Does it have any remnants of this collision left orbiting it?
优秀的评论。但这样的碰撞不会在金星周围留下一个卫星吗?
金星没有月亮。它的轨道上有碰撞的残留物吗?
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
It takes a hit with a specific range of angles to form a moon like Earth (we’ve actually calculated the angle) a few degrees out of that range and it wouldn’t have happened. Same thing with Venus, it took a hit with a planetoid at a specific angle to cause the planet to rotate “backwards”.
它需要一个特定角度的撞击才能形成一个像地球一样的月球(我们实际上已经计算过角度)，在这个角度之外几度的撞击是不会发生的。金星也是一样，它被小行星以特定的角度撞击，导致行星“向后”旋转。
The theory is when a planet hit Venus, it fucked up the rotation backwards which means when the debris from the collision formed a moon but as the Venus moon orbits the correct way while Venus was the other way round which causes gravitational drag which pulled the moon to Venus when (Earth is actually pushing the moon away by 3.8cm per year) and collided again causing the irregular rotation and day/year cycle. This probably what stopped tectonic plates as well when the water evaporated.
理论认为，当一颗行星撞击金星时，它破坏了向后的旋转，这意味着碰撞产生的碎片形成了一个（金星的）月球。但由于金星的月球轨道是正确的，而金星的轨道是相反的，这导致了引力拖曳，把月球拉到金星上(地球实际上每年把月球外推3.8厘米)。再次碰撞，造成了不规则旋转和日/年循环。这可能也是当水蒸发时地壳板块停止运动的原因。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Thar may be so but you must understand that Venus is at 0.83 AU which means as the Sun's luminosity increased over time it added more energy to Venus and accelerated the runaway greenhouse effect along with all those you mentioned
这可能是这样，但你必须明白，金星位处0.83天文单位，这意味着随着时间的推移，太阳的光度增加，它为金星增加了更多的能量，加速了失控的温室效应，再加上你提到的所有这些原因（导致了今天的样子）。
No. Venus would have been much warmer than the Earth, but that’s wildly different from a runaway greenhouse effect. Earth itself has had periods when it was much warmer. With a magnetic field roughly equally to Earth, tectonic plates, etc. Venus would be a warm Earth, not a hellish landscape.
不。金星的温度会比地球高得多，但这与失控的温室效应大不相同。地球本身也有温暖得多的时期。
如果磁场、构造板块等与地球大致相等。金星将是一个温暖的“地球”，而不是地狱般的景象。
Yes if but as the solar luminosity had increased from 0.60 to 1L now which means Venus is no longer in the habitable zone, just outside the edge. This just made the greenhouse effect worsen.
如果太阳光度从0.60增加到1L，这意味着金星不再在宜居带，而是处于边缘外。
这只会使温室效应恶化。
Thats one factor, there may have been others such an event which caused an imbalance of the Methane and CO2 content in the atmosphere causing a runaway greenhouse effect.
Some say that Venus is a preview of the Earth's state given certain climatic imbalances (e.g. the melting of the Siberian permafrost, which scientists have calimed holds massive amounts of Methane deposits captive).
这是一个因素，可能还有其他这样的事件，造成大气中甲烷和二氧化碳含量的失衡，最终导致失控的温室效应。
有人说，考虑到某些气候不平衡，金星是地球状态的一个未来预警。
4 billion years ago the Sun was only 80% as bright as it is now. However, Venus being closer to the Sun and the intensity of sunlight varying with the square of the distance, 4 billion years ago Venus was still getting about 50% more solar energy than the Earth does now. Venus was never in the Goldilocks zone. It is highly unlikely that there was ever, any liquid water on the surface of Venus. With no magnetosphere and all water in the vapor form Venus quickly lost all water that was not locked up in sulfuric acid molecules.
40亿年前太阳的亮度只有现在的80%。然而，由于金星离太阳更近，阳光强度也随着距离的变化而变化，40亿年前金星获得的太阳光照能仍然比现在的地球多50%。
金星从来不在适居带。金星表面曾经有液态水的可能性非常小。由于没有磁层和水蒸气中的所有水，金星很快失去了所有没有被锁在硫酸分子中的水。
There are a lot of comments that really need correcting (though some are good). But first, Venus was NOT formed billions of years earlier than earth. Jupiter was first, and the inner planets, well frankly, all the rest of the planets accreted with what was left over, which was less than half of what there was before Jupiter.
Second, VENUS NEVER HAD AN OCEAN. Throw out that image above. Newest research using a new three-dimensional model as reported in a very recent article in Nature journal shows how a team of astronomers calculated the degree to which both Earth and Venus would need to cool down from their initial high accretion temperatures for liquid water to condense out from their atmospheres to form surface liquid water. The surface of Venus would need to receive no more than 325 W/m2 of warming and Earth no more than 312.5 W/m2.
Venus attained a minimum surface warming of 500 W/m2 about 4 billion years ago. This minimum is 54% greater than what is needed for liquid water to condense out from Venus’s primordial atmosphere. Consequently, astronomers are now certain that Venus has never possessed any surface liquid water. [Martin Turbet et al., “Day-Night Cloud Asymmetry Prevents Early Oceans on Venus But Not on Earth,” Nature 598, no. 7880 (October 14, 2021): 276–280, doi:10.1038/s41586-021-03873-w]. This means that prior one-dimensional models are OUT OF DATE. The astronomers are also certain that, at best, only minuscule quantities of water vapor remained in Venus’s atmosphere. The planet’s atmospheric temperature and its atmospheric electric field operated to quickly desiccate Venus’s atmosphere. The “electric field” of a planet is now considered another new habitable factor, and Venus does not pass—no life chances AT ALL.
BTW, 2–3 billion years ago, the sun was NOT 40% dimmer, try about 15–20%.
答主有很多注释确实需要修改(尽管有些是好的)。
但首先，金星并不比地球早数十亿年形成。木星是第一个，而内行星，坦白地说，所有其他行星都是由剩下的物质积累起来的，这还不到木星之前的一半。
第二，金星从来没有海洋。扔掉上面的图片。《自然》杂志最近的一篇文章报道了一项使用新的三维模型的最新研究表明，一组天文学家计算出地球和金星需要在多大程度上从它们最初的高温中冷却下来，液态水才能从它们的大气层中凝结出来，形成表面液态水。金星表面的升温不能超过325瓦/平方米，地球的升温不能超过312.5瓦/平方米。
大约40亿年前，金星的表面温度达到了500 瓦/平方米，这还是最低水平。这个最小值比液态水从金星原始大气中凝结出来所需要的数值大54%。因此，天文学家现在确定，金星表面从未有过液态水。链接略。
这意味着以前的一维模型已经过时了。天文学家还确定，充其量，只有极少量的水蒸气留在金星的大气层中。金星的大气温度和电场使金星的大气层迅速变干。行星的“电场”现在被认为是另一个新的宜居因素，而金星根本没有出现生命的机会。
顺便说一下，20 - 30亿年前，太阳的亮度不是（低了）40%，而是15-20%。
And for what it’s worth, technically the Earth is NOT in the Goldilocks Zone. If you take the size of the earth and calculate the energy from the sun which falls on it, then calculate the resulting temperature (black body), you come up with an average temperature below freezing (about -10 F). No liquid water.
In practice, the water vapor in the atmosphere produces a greenhouse effect which raises the earth’s temperature about 65 degrees F.
There has apparently been not one but two episodes called Snowball Earth, when all or almost all of the earth was covered in ice. The last one was 600 to 700 million years ago. The global ice sheet prevented the ocean from absorbing CO2 from volcanic eruptions, which built up in the atmosphere until the temporary greenhouse effect warmed things up enough to melt the ice.
不管怎样，严格来说地球并不在适居带。如果你计算地球的大小，然后计算太阳落在地球上的能量，然后计算得到的温度(黑体)，你会得到冰点以下的平均温度(约-10华氏度)。
实际上，大气中的水蒸气会产生温室效应，使地球温度升高65华氏度。很明显，有两段时间被称为“雪球地球”，当时地球全部或几乎全部被冰覆盖。最后一次发生在6到7亿年前。全球冰盖阻止了海洋从火山喷发中吸收二氧化碳，而火山喷发在大气中积累，直到临时的温室效应使事物升温，足以融化冰。
Technically, there is NO official definition of the habitable zone [HZ] (and even less so for “Goldilocks Zone”), so it doesn’t make sense to say that the Earth is not technically in it.
The HZ is normally defined (or rather, conceived of) as the zone around a star in which a terrestrial planet (or “Earth-like world”) could potentially have liquid water at its surface - and thus have the potential to host life (as we know it). That’s a bit vague, isn’t it?
The black body temperature that you mention is not adequate to meet this definition. It IS a useful PART of how it it determined. So why doesn’t it work by itself? Many reasons, but consider the most obvious: it doesn’t take into account the effects of having an atmosphere. And you NEED an atmosphere, both to allow life as we know it, and even more broadly to allow liquid surface water. No atmosphere, and regardless of temperature, surface water will either be frozen, or boil off into space. But if there’s an atmosphere and liquid water, there will be some degree of greenhouse effect from water vapor in that atmosphere. Which means we must take that into account. Doing so gets messy, but the immediate upshot is this: black body temperature is insufficient for defining HZ.
从技术上讲，“宜居带”并没有官方定义，所以说地球从技术上讲不属于宜居带是没有道理的。
宜居带通常被定义为(或者更确切地说，被设想为)一颗恒星周围的区域，其中有一颗类地行星(或“类地世界”)表面可能有液态水——因此有可能存在生命(正如我们所知)。这挺模糊的，不是吗?
原因有很多，但考虑一下最明显的:它没有考虑到有大气层的影响。你需要一个大气层，既能让我们知道的生命存在，更广泛地说，也能让液态水存在。没有大气层，无论温度如何，地表水要么被冻结，要么被蒸发到太空中。但如果存在大气和液态水，那么大气中的水蒸气就会产生某种程度的温室效应。这意味着我们必须考虑到这一点。这样做会很麻烦，但直接的结果是：这不足以定义宜居带。
Venus is still in habitable zone and actually more suitable than Mars for colonisation. Its size and gravity are both comparable with Earth. Gravity is a big issue with Mars.
Problem with Venus is its highly dense atmosphere which consists of green house gases. It makes Venus’ surface extremely hot with super high atmospheric pressure.
But, if you go high enough in the atmosphere, temperature and pressure become comparable with those of Earth. Here we can build floating cities or tower cities on which we can live without astronaut suit. Star Wars’ cloud city was inspired from this concept.
金星仍然处于宜居地带，实际上比火星更适合殖民。它的大小和引力都与地球相当。火星的重力是个大问题。金星的问题在于其由温室气体组成的高密度大气层。它使金星表面极热，大气压力超高。
但是，如果你到达大气层足够高的地方，温度和压力就可以和地球上的相当。在这里，我们可以建造漂浮城市或塔式城市，在上面我们可以不穿太空服生活。《星球大战》的云城市就是从这个概念中获得灵感的。
Until all possible scenarios are worked out with quadruple redundancy in the safety features of the floating ship, I would not be super excited about hovering above a 900 degree blast furnace
除非所有可能的情况都能在浮船的安全特性上实现四倍冗余，否则我不会对在900度的高炉上盘旋感到超级兴奋。
LOL!
哈哈哈哈
Yes, this.
Its one of the immediate “shut downs” with minor comic value to argue when anyone asks why we haven’t yet invented flying cars for the masses just like in The Jetsons. Car breaks down on the road… you just pull into the side and change the wheel. Flying car breaks down…ooooops!
Whats that part of Newton’s Law that wasn’t really part of Newton’s Law but everyone remembers? What goes up must come down?
Oh crap the floatation engines are faulty, Venus seems to be getting bigger, hey getting a bit hot in here isn’t it
我们仍然需要戴上氧气/空气面罩带上氧气罐，才能在建议的高度走出栖息地。
Yes, but not full pressure suits: which take HOURS to don or doff, *with* the assistance of other people, and weigh over 100 lbs.
是，但不用穿包裹全身的压力服，这种衣服需要几个小时才能穿上/脱下，还要在别人的帮助下才能脱下，重量超过100磅。
And don’t forget a full-body hazmat suit.
Although not pressurized, you still need to be fully covered. The air is laced with sulphuric acid. Doesn’t do the body any good.
别忘了穿上防护服。
虽然没有加压，但你仍然需要被完全覆盖。空气中含有硫酸，对身体没有任何好处。
No, sulfuric acid clouds are quite a bit further down. That’s actually part of this idea’s attractiveness.
(The “con” of course is that I am yet to see a convincing explanation what this cloud city would be for)
不，硫酸云在更低的地方。这（没有硫酸）实际上是这个想法的吸引力的一部分。
当然，“缺点”是我还没有看到一个令人信服的解释，这座云城市将用于干什么。
Could you obtain carbon-fibre building materials using solar energy and all that CO2 in the atmosphere?
你能利用太阳能和大气中的二氧化碳来获得碳纤维建筑材料吗?
That can be game-changer.
这可能会改变游戏规则。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
So, a blimp city. It's a nice concept. The next thing to figure out is how to effectively and efficiently keep the baloons safe from puncture damage.
所以，这是一座飞艇城市。
这是个不错的概念，接下来要弄清楚的是如何有效地保护气球不被刺伤。
Since the surface temperature can melt lead, and all of the probes that have landed there have lasted less than two hours, I seriously doubt we could build any kind of tower city.
因为它的表面温度可以融化铅，而且所有在那里着陆的探测器都只持续了不到两个小时，我严重怀疑我们能否建造任何形式的塔城。
If you drop something over the edge, forget about getting it back.
如果你掉了什么东西，就别想把它捡回来了。
On the upside, dump a bag of trash over the edge and its a small black lump before it hits the ground.
从高处看，把一袋垃圾从边上丢下去，在它落到地面之前，它会变成一小块黑色的东西。
You are overstating the case by quite a bit. Yes over half of Venus surface is hot enough to melt lead, basically all the area that would be deep sea bottoms on Earth. However like Earth Venus has several continental lad masses that at the edge are over 2,000 meters higher in altitude than the dead sea bottoms. In addition to that many mountains are found on those continents and at least Skadi Mons extends upward far enough to have silvery-white caps of precipitated bismuth and lead that fell like metal snow. These are the lowest heat and pressure of anywhere on the surface of Venus and if you built your “surface city” here your equipment has only half the pressure and about 65% of the temperature you find as the Venus average.
你把情况夸大了不少。
是的，金星表面一半以上的温度足以融化铅，基本上地球上所有的深海底部都是如此。然而，就像地球一样，金星有几座大陆板块，其边缘比死海底部高出2000多米。
除此之外，在这些大陆上还发现了许多山脉，至少斯卡迪山向上延伸到足够高的地方，有沉淀的铋和铅形成的银白色帽子，像金属雪一样落下。
这些地方是金星表面热量和气压最低的地方，如果你在这里建造“地面城市”，你的设备只有金星平均水平的一半压力和65%的温度。