为什么美国在美墨战争期间没有占领下加利福尼亚（今墨西哥领土）?（二）
Why didn''t the US also take Baja California during the Mexican-American War?
译文简介
我想知道这个条约是否需要参议院批准。如此重大的决定似乎不应该由一个人来决定。
正文翻译
Why didn't the US also take Baja California during the Mexican-American War?
为什么美国在美墨战争期间没有占领下加利福尼亚（今墨西哥领土）?
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I’d like to know if this treaty required Senate ratification. It would seem that a decision of this magnitude should not be left to one man. We are reaping the consequences with an expanded border because of this one man. Was he not vetted as to his views? What became of him after this disobedience? Why did Polk choose him?
id like to learn more on this.
我想知道这个条约是否需要参议院批准。如此重大的决定似乎不应该由一个人来决定。就因为这个人，我们的边界没能进一步扩张。难道他的观点没有经过审查吗?
这次不服从之后他怎么样了?波尔克为什么选择他?我想在这方面多了解一些。
Of course, the treaty between the USA and the Republic Of Mexico required Senate ratification, as did the Gadsden Purchase, and every treaty made with American Indian tribes.
当然，美国和墨西哥共和国之间的条约需要参议院的批准，就像加斯登购买案，包括与美国印第安部落签订的每一个条约一样。
I suppose the point of my question was to try and understand what prompted the senate to ratify a treaty that the president was furious about. Was it his party? Was it a political dig? Was there no popular support? Such a betrayal of national interest should have been opposed by someone. The senate could have and should have refused. Why didn’t it?
我想我问这个问题的目的是试图理解是什么促使参议院批准了一个令总统感到愤怒的条约。是他的党派吗?这是政治讽刺吗?没有民众的支持吗?
这种背叛国家利益的行为应该遭到反对。参议院本来可以也应该拒绝。为什么不呢?
The war was never popular, and reopening negotiations would have in effect required restarting the war. It would have taken months for a new treaty, and badly damaged US international reputation.
In that era, envoys had large leeway, because of communication delays. The British negotiator at the end of the first Opium War was similarly sacked, as he took as little from China as he could get away with (among other things, some fishing village on an island called Hong Kong). The British kept the treaty.
Personally, I take it as a matter of national pride that even in the era of slavery and imperialism, so many Americans were willing to risk their freedom and careers to oppose wanton expansionism.
这场战争从来就不受欢迎，重开谈判实际上需要重新开始战争。签订新条约需要数月时间，而且严重损害了美国的国际声誉。在那个时代，由于通信的延迟，使节有很大的回旋余地。第一次鸦片战争结束时的英国谈判代表也同样被解雇了，因为他从中国拿走的东西少得不能再少了(其中包括一个叫香港岛的一个渔村)。英国人遵守了条约。
我个人认为，即使在奴隶制和帝国主义的时代，也有许多美国人愿意冒着失去自由和事业的风险来反对肆意的扩张主义，这是关乎民族自豪感的问题。
One of the problems with Mexican territorial annexation was that the Federal Government had to pay for it, somehow.
Besides compensation for the land that was officially taken, the Federal Government also assumed all of the Mexican Government’s debt as well and taking more territory would have meant costing more money.
To offset the costs of the Mexican War and the assumption of Mexican national debt, the Federal Government had to sell off a lot of land acquired from both the Treaty of Paris in 1783 and the Louisiana Purchase and in the early-1850s, that land was selling at rock-bottom prices—my mother’s family wound up buying up land in Iowa through that.
兼并墨西哥领土的一个问题是，联邦政府必须以某种方式为此买单。
除了对正式征用的土地进行补偿外，联邦政府还承担了墨西哥政府的所有债务，而获得更多的领土就意味着花费更多的钱。
为了抵消墨西哥战争的成本和墨西哥国债的负担，联邦政府不得不廉价出售从1783年的《巴黎条约》和路易斯安那购买协议中获得的大量土地。在19世纪50年代早期，这些土地以最低价格出售——我母亲的家人最终通过这些条约购买了爱荷华州的土地。
The comments diminishing the U.S. victory are misplaced. Whether or not one agrees with the aims of the war (which were controversial internally), getting all the way to the Mexican capital and forcing a surrender, while essentially cut off from supply lines, was a military accomplishment that resonated through U.S. politics for years. The Duke of Wellington famously said, “[Scott’s] campaign was unsurpassed in military annals. He is the greatest living soldier.”
贬低美国胜利的言论是错误的。不管人们是否认同这场战争的目的(这在美国内部是有争议的)，在切断了补给线的同时，一路到达墨西哥首都并迫使其投降，是一项多年来在美国政治中引起共鸣的军事成就。
威灵顿公爵(Duke of Wellington)有句名言:“(斯科特的)战役在军事史上是无与伦比的。他是世界上最伟大的战士。”
Actually, meh. The Mexican army was in no way a super powerful army back then. There were internal conflicts in Mexico, in fact, some states argued that “it wasn’t their war” and didn’t help to the defense of the country.
A short famous phrase by Mexican General Pedro Maria Anaya told to the Americans when they asked for any remaining ammunition after he surrendered:
“If I had any ammunition, you wouldn’t be here”.
So the merit for the US victory is highly questionable. It was a war against a weaker country: weaker military, weaker logistics, weaker finances, weaker institutions, weaker everything…
实际上，不是这样的。当时的墨西哥军队绝不是一支超级强大的军队。墨西哥有内部冲突，事实上，一些州认为“这不是他们的战争”，并没有帮助国家防御。
当美国人在墨西哥将军佩德罗·玛丽亚·阿纳亚投降后向他索要弹药时，他对美国人说了一句话:
"如果我有弹药，你就不会在这里了"
因此，美国胜利的价值是非常值得怀疑的。这是一场针对一个更弱国家的战争:更弱的军事、更弱的后勤、更弱的财政、更弱的制度，更弱的一切……
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
This is interesting we did basically what Russia id doing to Ukraine. We started a war to get land from Mexico. We won which wasn’t a surprise. We took a lot of their land. Nothing like manifest destiny. Shockingly we wanted more.
这很有趣，我们做了俄罗斯会对乌克兰做的事情。为了从墨西哥得到土地，我们发动了战争。我们赢了，这并不意外。我们侵占了他们的很多土地。。令人震惊的是，我们想要更多。
Frankly, I wish Polk had gotten the settlement he wanted. Mexico would have lost a lot more in territory but hardly anything in term of population. That land would have been developed far better and sooner. I understand that that would not have been in Mexico’s interest but I am not Mexican.
坦白说，我希望波尔克能得到他想要的和解。墨西哥会失去更多的领土，但在人口方面几乎没有任何损失。那片土地本可以开发得更快更好。我明白这样做不符合墨西哥的利益，但我不是墨西哥人。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
I largely concur with this assessment, except that the incorporated Mexicans would have been far better off here than under government of Mexico. I do have family from the state of Chihuahua and it IS a Hellhole. Yeah, without a doubt, we’d all be a lot better off right now. Before those with a sympathy for the states south-of-the-border start crying, Look at Southern Arizona and New Mexico (or even Texas and California for that matter). While no US state is perfect, they are a century more advanced then their neighbors to the south (which is not the case in other places in North America like Canada).
The natural resources in the states of northern Mexico that are available for mining and drilling would have employed and increased the wealth millions of average people since then (not just the “patrones” like today). Large-scale agricultural projects would have increased cropland and yields across the region and fed many more people. Programs would have educated the citizens and electrified cities.
我在很大程度上同意这个评估，只是吞并后的墨西哥人在这里会比在墨西哥政府统治下过得好得多。我有家人来自奇瓦瓦州（墨西哥州，也是吉娃娃原产地），那是个地狱。是啊，毫无疑问，我们现在都会过得更好。
在那些同情南部边境各州的人开始哭泣之前，看看南亚利桑那州和新墨西哥州吧(甚至德克萨斯州和加利福尼亚州)。虽然美国没有一个州是完美的，但他们比他们南边的邻居先进一个世纪。
墨西哥北部各州的自然资源本可用于采矿和钻探，从那时起，这些资源本将雇用数百万普通人，并增加他们的财富。大规模的农业项目本将会增加整个地区的耕地面积和产量，养活更多的人。这些项目本可以使市民受教育，使城市通电。
联邦政府创建的交通基础设施项目，如州际电信、高速公路和铁路，将该地区与港口和美国城市连接起来，拥有强大的交通和通信网络。联邦政府资助的水和下水道基础设施的改善以及垃圾填埋场的建设将使许多人免于生病和死亡，有效的公共卫生服务(如疫苗、营养培训、现代农村卫生保健)也将如此。
环境法规应该被强制执行以消除污染(不，不是国会这些天创造的荒谬和无意义的东西——我指的是“真正的”反污染立法，如《安全饮用水法案》、《清洁水法》、《RCRA》和《清洁空气法案》)。今天，是的，即使是今天，墨西哥各地的农村城镇仍然没有电力供应给所有的居民，没有安全的饮用水，没有卫生的下水道，没有卫生的垃圾填埋场，也没有可靠的通信。
今天，我们所有人都不得不处理来自边境南部的垃圾，如果我们在19世纪或20世纪初吞并这片领土，这些垃圾就会被消除或大幅减少。墨西哥北部现在是21世纪的西部蛮荒，几乎没有法律和秩序。帮派和有组织犯罪几乎支配了整个地区发生的一切活动。这些问题肯定会以非法越境(由于墨西哥人的赤贫和人口贩卖)、毒品、绑架、美国人为解救亲属和贩毒集团持有的设备而支付的赎金等形式蔓延到加州、亚利桑那州、新墨西哥州和得克萨斯州。
美国还必须处理其他入侵事件。这些是我祖母和其他人多年来从墨西哥合法移民到美国的许多原因中的一部分。
You're entitled to your opinion. Let me just ask you three questions. If Mexico is so bad as opposed to the USA, how come one million gringos have moved there and live happily? Second: Why has the US one million homeless people and millions more trapped in lives of addiction and despair? Why is there so much rage and animosity among US citizens, random and senseless shootings, political polarization, etc.? I think that the both Mexico and the US have good and bad. Let's work together to solve the problems instead of blaming each other
你有权发表自己的意见。让我问你三个问题。
1.如果墨西哥比美国更糟糕，为什么有100万外国佬搬到那里快乐地生活?
2.为什么美国有100万无家可归的人，还有数百万人陷入毒瘾和绝望的生活?
3. 为什么美国公民之间会有这么多愤怒和敌意，为什么会有随机和无意义的枪击事件，为什么会有政治两极分化?……
我认为墨西哥和美国都有好的一面和坏的一面。让我们一起努力解决问题，而不是互相指责。
Our gringo friends should be more careful with cynical displays of arrogance (a là Donald Trump) towards the neighbor that is keeping their southern gates safe. At a time when the world's leadership is being increasingly challenged rubbing on old wounds is not a good idea
我们的外国朋友应该更加小心，不要对保护他们南大门安全的邻居表现出愤世嫉俗的傲慢(点名唐纳德·特朗普)。在世界领导地位日益受到挑战的时刻，揭旧伤疤并不是一个好主意。
If the USA had taken more of Mexico, an interesting alternative history line presents itself. The newly annexed areas would have likely been included in the Confederacy when the US Civil War started a few years later. Mexico had abolished slavery in 1829, so there would have been resistance to importing the practice. Benito Juarez likely would ally with Lincoln and lead a reconquest of the seized areas, and given the early desperate years of the war, the unx would probably have been fine with the Juarez going north to help take down the Confederacy. France would not want to support slavery in Mexico, so they likely would not have done their historical intervention. Lincoln was known to be ashamed of Polk’s Mexican War, so there would have been sympathy for Mexican Juarez allies help with the Confederacy, so possible Mexico gets back Texas in the event of a unx victory.
如果美国占领了更多的墨西哥，那么另一条有趣的历史线就会出现。几年后美国内战爆发时，这些新被吞并的地区很可能已经被纳入邦联。墨西哥在1829年废除了奴隶制，因此引进这套制度会受到抵制。
贝尼托·华雷斯很可能会与林肯结盟，并领导重新征服被占领的地区，考虑到战争初期的绝望岁月，联邦政府可能会同意华雷斯人北上，帮助推翻邦联。
法国不会支持墨西哥的奴隶制，所以他们可能不会进行干预。众所周知，林肯对波尔克的墨西哥战争感到羞耻，所以人们会同情墨西哥华雷斯。所以如果联邦获胜，墨西哥就有可能夺回德克萨斯。
Some southerners had long been concerned about growing abolitionist sentiments and increasing economic power in the north, and had advocated acquisition of some or all of Mexico to expand slaveholding territories.
一些南方人长期以来一直关注北方日益增长的废奴主义情绪和日益增长的经济实力，并主张收购部分或全部墨西哥以扩大蓄奴地区。
Which is one reason annexing all of Mexico would never happen. The north would not allow the south to add that much territory and possible states to the unx, thus tipping the balance of power in Congress. The only this would occur is if slavery continued to be outlawed-something the South would not accept. Thus this issue is a non starter.
这也是吞并整个墨西哥永远不会发生的原因之一。北方不允许南方在联邦中增加这么多领土和可能的州，从而打破了国会的权力平衡。
这种情况只有在奴隶制继续被禁止的情况下才会发生——这是南方不会接受的。因此，这个问题是不可能的。
At the conclusion of the Mexican War there were many prominent Mexicans that wanted the US to take all of Mexico. They and others also offered General Scott a dictatorship of Mexico. During Scott’s occupation of Mexico City it was the only real stability Mexico had in decades. Once the US got the land they were after and left Mexico City it was right back to revolutions and turmoil.
在墨西哥战争结束时，许多墨西哥人希望美国占领整个墨西哥。他们和其他一些人还提议让斯科特将军统治墨西哥。在斯科特占领墨西哥城期间，这是几十年来墨西哥唯一一次真正的稳定。一旦美国得到了他们想要的土地，离开了墨西哥城，这里又回到了革命和动乱。
Canada has less violence and poverty than USA. Many poor inhabitants of northern USA would be benefited by incorporation to Canada. If Canada had the necessary military power to annex some of US states, would they be morally justified to do it? By the way, I am not Mexican but Brazilian.
加拿大的暴力和贫困比美国少。许多贫穷的美国北部居民将受益于合并到加拿大。如果加拿大有必要的军事力量来吞并美国的一些州，他们这样做在道德上是合理的吗?顺便说一下，我不是墨西哥人，而是巴西人。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
I imagine in that scenario, Cuba and the Yucatan would be US states today, along with Chihuahua and Sonora. Coahuila, Nuevo León and Tamaulipas could have been bunched into a single state, possibly the ‘State of the Rio Grande’, or admitted individually. Not sure about Baja California, but it could have been admitted as a single state together with the rest of California, or admitted separately. Given what the US did with annexed Mexican territory (excluding Texas) in our timeline, however, they would have been administered as territories first before being admitted. Who knows how many states the US flag would have then?
Also, I think any states admitted from that area could have been made slave states up to the Civil War. Heck, Cuba could have sided with the Confederacy, to give an example!
我想象在这种情况下，古巴和尤卡坦半岛将是今天美国的州，还有奇瓦瓦和索诺拉。科阿韦拉、新莱昂和塔毛利帕斯本可以合并成一个州，可能是“大州”或被单独分出来。下加利福尼亚州不确定，但它可以和加州其他部分一起被承认为一个州，或单独被分出来。然而，考虑到美国在我们的时间轴上对兼并的墨西哥领土(不包括德克萨斯州)所做的，在被接纳之前，它们应该首先作为领土被管理。谁知道那时美国国旗会有多少个星星呢?
此外，我认为任何该地区被承认的州都可能在南北战争之前成为蓄奴州。古巴本可能站在邦联一边，这样的历史线真见鬼!
Certainly the northern tier states of Mexico could have easily been annexed, being, their low, almost, empty infact, populations of that time. Most of Mexico's 7 million people then lived all within a few hundred miles of Mexico City. Even California had only 70,000 people then, which, quickly raised to 650,000 during the gold rush.
当然，墨西哥的北部各州很容易被吞并，因为当时它们的人口很少，几乎是空的。当时，墨西哥700万人口中的大多数都生活在墨西哥城方圆几百英里的范围内。就连加州当时也只有7万人，只是后来在淘金热期间迅速增加到65万人。
Cuba was a different war. Spanish - American war of 1898. Teddy Rosevelt made a name for himself in that one. Why McKinley didn’t immediately annex Cuba is beyond comprehension-a major blunder. And Grant tried to buy the Dominican Republic. Congress refused. Another mistake. The Caribbean could have been an American lake.
古巴战争是另一场战争——1898年的美西战争。泰迪·罗斯维尔特在那部电影中名声大噪。为什么麦金利没有立即吞并古巴，这是一个难以理解的大错误。
格兰特试图买下多米尼加共和国，国会拒绝了。另一个错误。加勒比海本来可以成为美国的一个内海。
There was also a great worry over incorporating Roman Catholics and Spanish speakers into USA. Also, more southern land meant more possible expansion of the southern plantation slavery system. It also may have required continuous fighting to hold these people in thrall to USA.
此外，将罗马天主教徒和说西班牙语的人并入美国也引起了很大的担忧。同时，更多的南方土地意味着南方种植园奴隶制的扩大。
墨西哥北部地区人口更稀少，许多美国人已经生活在加州和犹他州)。
The USA has always been imperial - something American historians were traditionally loathe to admit. Less so now: the book to begin with is Daniel Immerwahr’s “How to Hide an Empire.”
Glad that Polk’s plan did not happen.
美国一直是帝国主义——这是美国历史学家传统上不愿承认的。现在更不愿意了：这可以从丹尼尔·伊莫瓦尔(Daniel Immerwahr)的《如何隐藏一个帝国》(How to Hide a Empire)说起。
很高兴波尔克的计划没有实现。
You might want to spend some time south of the border and ask them the same question. They feel much differently. It would have been a little like being freed from an abusive father and forced to live with a rich aunt. Same with Puerto Rico whose been asking for statehood. Africa? Won’t even go there.
你可能想在边境以南花点时间问他们同样的问题。他们的感觉（跟你）很不一样。这就有点像从一个虐待的父亲那里解放出来，被迫和一个有钱的阿姨住在一起。波多黎各也一样，它一直在寻求独立。非洲?我甚至不会去那里。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
I go to Mexico often enough to know that Mexicans have a variety of sentiments regarding the USA. Lots would like to emigrate, but not a lot would like to see Mexico annexed by the USA.
Meanwhile, History is complex. Santa Anna was a dictator and bad for Mexico, but let’s also not forget that Mexico had abolished slavery by 1830, and that the “freedom fighters” of Texas wanted to reestablish a slave state - which they did.
Now, in saying that the USA has always been imperial I do not mean to say that the USA was worse than the rest of the European powers (and Japan) who were creating vast empires during the course of the 19th century. It was about the same. The by far most populous American imperial possession, the Philippines, though, lobbied for independence from the time it was conquered and annexed and finally got it after 50 years.
我经常去墨西哥，知道墨西哥人对美国有各种各样的看法。很多人想移民，但没有多少人愿意看到墨西哥被美国吞并。与此同时，历史是复杂的。桑塔·安纳是一个独裁者，对墨西哥不利，但我们也不要忘记，墨西哥已经在1830年废除了奴隶制，而德克萨斯的“自由战士”想要重建一个蓄奴州——他们做到了。
现在，在说美国一直是帝国主义的时候，我并不是说美国比其他欧洲列强(和日本)更糟糕，他们在19世纪建立了庞大的帝国。差不多是一样的。菲律宾是迄今为止人口最多的美国帝国属地，从被征服和吞并开始就一直在游说独立，最终在50年后获得了独立。