问中国人：你觉得中国足球为何不如日本和韩国等国家，尽管同属东亚且人口规模远超后者？

Next_Ad_7112
You know the song "fortunate son"

你知道那首歌《幸运之子》吗？

Here are two lines of the lyrics

以下是两句歌词

"I ain't no senator's son, son"

“我不是参议员的儿子，小子”

"I ain't no millionaire's son, no, no"

“我不是百万富翁的儿子，不，不”

This sums up why.

这就是原因所在。

The talented football players are probably busy 美团外卖ing (Doordashing)

有天赋的足球运动员可能正忙着送美团外卖。

npcshow
Doordashing when they were 12?

他们 12 岁时就在送外卖了？

No_Bed_6604
Because their families do not have enough money to bribe the coach to let their sons play important matches and become professional players. As a result, they have to doordash which kind of utilizes their skills.

因为他们的家庭没有足够的钱贿赂教练，让他们的儿子参加重要比赛并成为职业球员。因此，他们不得不从事送外卖的工作，这在一定程度上利用了他们的技能。

No_Bed_6604
Note that Chinese doordashing really requires "dash", because you need to get into a large building, climb multiple floors, and deliver to the door.

请注意，中国的送餐服务确实需要"冲刺"，因为你需要进入大型建筑，爬上多层楼，然后送到门口。

MobileHedgehoga
In terms of raw number of registered players. China has around 980,000 football players. Japan has around 900,000 football players. South Korea has around 100,000 football players.

就注册球员的原始数量而言。中国大约有 98 万名足球运动员。日本大约有 90 万名足球运动员。韩国大约有 10 万名足球运动员。

Weekly_One1388
Football, more than any other sport in the world is downstream from culture and leisure.

足球，相较于世界上任何其他运动，更多地源于文化与休闲。

Football is not the leisure activity of the Chinese, watching nor playing, nor talking about it. Go to any European or South American city and walk into a local cafe, you’ll quickly hear a conversation about football. It’s what we do.

足球并非中国人的休闲活动，无论是观看、参与还是谈论。走进任何一座欧洲或南美城市的当地咖啡馆，你很快就能听到关于足球的对话。这就是我们的日常。

I’m in China since 2008, I think I can count on 1 hand the number of times I have seen kids playing football in the streets. Some may go to a community stadium to play but most are simply a) studying or b) playing something else (video games), badminton or whatever.

自 2008 年以来，我一直在在中国，我想我一只手就能数清在街上看到孩子们踢足球的次数。有些人可能会去社区体育场踢球，但大多数人要么在学习，要么在玩其他东西（电子游戏）、打羽毛球或做其他事情。

Also, what you’re forgetting about Japan and Korea is that the national team is a product of football culture rather than a desired outcome. The national team is good because people care about football not as an end goal in itself. To me, this is where China falls down, the immediate goal shouldn’t be to make the Chinese national team good, the immediate goal should be to improve the standard in schools, the standard of the Chinese league, get local Shenzhen kids watching Shenzhen Peng City games etc.

此外，关于日本和韩国，你忽略的一点是，国家队是足球文化的产物，而非刻意追求的结果。国家队表现出色，是因为人们真正关心足球本身，而不是将其视为终极目标。在我看来，这正是中国的不足之处。当务之急不应是让中国国家队变强，而应是提升学校足球水平、改善中国联赛质量，让深圳本地的孩子们去看深圳鹏城的比赛等等。

In a weird way, the desire to do well for your country is kind of holding the whole thing back.

从某种奇怪的角度来说，为国争光的愿望反而在某种程度上阻碍了整个进程。

It is actually one of the few major areas where China sucks at long term thinking.

这实际上是中国在长远规划方面表现不佳的少数几个主要领域之一。

Remote_Volume_3609
I mean, it sucks at long term thinking in Football because it doesn't care, which is what you said. I wouldn't say it's a "major area" because nobody cares.

我的意思是，中国足球在长远规划方面确实不行，因为根本没人关心，这也正是你所说的。我不会称之为“重点领域”，因为根本没人当回事。

Let's say the government were to get involved and make it a national priority. What's the end benefit? A bit of soft power at the cost of what would almost certainly be billions to make it happen. And another form of Westernisation that puts money mainly into the pockets of Western countries. Even if China were to build up their league, it's increadibly expensive to try and compete with European leagues and it's why outside of very few leagues, most end up being development or retirement leagues for Europe. That's what's starting to happen to Korea right now, which means what will happen is the level of play in Korea will continue to not be as good as the Premier league, or la liga, but their players will increasingly be scouted out to Europe.

假设政府介入并将其列为国家优先事项，最终能带来什么好处呢？无非是花上数十亿换取一点软实力，而且这还是一种主要让西方国家赚钱的西化形式。即使中国要发展自己的联赛，与欧洲联赛竞争的成本也高得惊人，这就是为什么除了极少数联赛外，大多数最终都成了欧洲的人才培养基地或养老院。韩国现在正开始出现这种情况，这意味着韩国联赛的水平将继续不如英超或西甲，但他们的球员会越来越多地被欧洲球探挖走。

That's the opposite of what China would want.

这与中国想要的效果恰恰相反。

LessComputer7927
Yup. If the Olympics were about sepak takraw, badminton, etc (grassroot sports in Asia just like how football and basketball are neighbourhood sports in the West) Asian countries would be smashing it.

是的。如果奥运会项目是藤球、羽毛球等（这些在亚洲是草根运动，就像足球和篮球在西方是社区运动一样），亚洲国家肯定会大放异彩。

I mean there's a push to include Asian and other sports but these are mostly seen from a Eurocentric perspective as novelty inclusions & not real events

我的意思是，虽然有人推动将亚洲和其他地区的运动纳入奥运会，但这些大多是从欧洲中心视角被视为新奇项目，而非真正的赛事。

Carr0t_007
Corruption in the football system.

足球体系中的腐败问题。

But it’s getting better now. U23 already made it to the Asian Cup finals. Let’s just wait

但现在情况正在好转。U23 国家队已经打进了亚洲杯决赛。我们只需耐心等待。

toeknee88125
Can you explain to me what makes the system corrupt?

你能向我解释一下这个系统是如何腐败的吗？

SWAGLORDRTZ
i think its a. sports betting(fixing matches etc.) b. there are cases of teams that look like money laundering

我认为原因在于：a. 体育博彩（操纵比赛等） b. 存在一些看似洗钱的球队案例

Dorigoon
pay to play

花钱才能玩

Vivid_Juggernaut6174
Gambling

赌博

samdweller
U23 will grow up in the same football system.

U23 球员将在同一个足球体系中成长。

Same-World-209
Aren’t half the Super League starting on minus points this season?

本赛季中超联赛不是有一半球队以负分开始吗？

Aggravating-Coast335
Chinese football team is the "national luck balancer"

中国足球队是“国运平衡器”

Simple explanation: if China’s gonna get better in the future, the Chinese national football team has to get way worse

简单来说：如果中国足球未来想要进步，那么中国国家足球队现在就必须变得更差。

That's the answer to all those BBC's "BUT AT WHAT COST" news

这就是对那些 BBC“但代价是什么”新闻的回应。

/s

/讽刺

staysaltylol
Their football system is pretty corrupt. The ones who make it to the national team aren’t always there based on merit.

他们的足球体系相当腐败。那些入选国家队的球员，并不总是凭实力入选的。

toeknee88125
Out of curiosity, what makes the system corrupt?

出于好奇，是什么让这个体系变得腐败？

sinnyD
Rich people bribe the coaches and scouts to get their kid recommended, from local to state, to national team. The real talented ones get left behind in the system.

有钱人贿赂教练和球探，让他们的孩子从地方队到省队，再到国家队一路获得推荐。真正有天赋的人反而在这个体系中被埋没。

staysaltylol
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce8vp2e7p64o
Hard to get elite players out from this system.

在这种体系下，很难培养出顶尖球员。

ThrowThisIntoSol
You have to be well connected to make it to that level of prestige. Rich executives or party members kids, not necessarily the most talented ones.

要想达到那种声望水平，必须要有良好的人脉关系。通常是富有的高管或党员子女，未必是最有才华的人。

random_agency
because the best athletes in China don't play soccer.

因为中国最优秀的运动员并不踢足球。

Remote_Volume_3609
It's also why America sucks at football. And also why would China care? We don't care about football

这也是美国足球水平不高的原因。而且，中国为什么要关心足球呢？我们并不在乎足球。

Peon01
Im on holiday in China rn, while people love watching football you never see goal posts (makeshift or proper ones) anywhere. In terms of popularity i see tons of kids going to basketball courts but I have seen only one person even hold a football and that was a small kid at a train station.

我现在正在中国度假，虽然人们喜欢看足球，但你几乎看不到任何地方有球门（无论是临时的还是正规的）。就受欢迎程度而言，我看到很多孩子去篮球场，但我只见过一个人拿着足球，那是在火车站的一个小孩。

jake72002
Not their main interest?

不是他们的主要兴趣？

Particular-Mongoose4
I don't think there are that many Chinese people who like football. The reason you think Chinese people like football is simply because China has a large population. Even if a small number of people like football, they can make a big impact online, but the overall atmosphere in Chinese society is not that fond of football.

我认为并没有那么多中国人喜欢足球。你觉得中国人喜欢足球，仅仅是因为中国人口基数大。即使一小部分人喜欢足球，他们也能在网上造成很大影响，但中国社会的整体氛围其实并不那么热衷足球。

toeknee88125
I’ll just say every single time I’ve visited China and I’ve struggled for a conversational topic European football and the NBA have always given me easy conversational topics

每次我去中国，当我在寻找聊天话题时，欧洲足球和 NBA 总能轻松打开话匣子。

Zestyclose-Aerie619
Chinese people in Hong Kong are huge on soccer. There are many teams and they do actually pretty well being small teams and leagues.

香港（特区）的中国人对足球非常热衷。那里有许多球队，尽管规模不大、联赛级别有限，但他们的表现相当出色。

Aggravating-Coast335
false

假的

China has a huge casual football population, it’s the biggest sport here

中国拥有庞大的业余足球人口，这是这里最受欢迎的运动

But the number of pro players is tiny, all because of how the professional system is built

但职业球员的数量却极少，这完全归咎于职业体系的构建方式

LessComputer7927
Is that really true? Ive never seen it played organically and naturally everywhere like say badminton. And office uncles meeting on the weekend to play dont count lol

这真的属实吗？我从未见过像羽毛球那样，足球自然而然地遍地开花。周末办公室大叔们聚在一起踢球可不算数哦。

Affectionate-Gap-345
China should just give up on football and focus on baseball, its much more respectable in terms of baseball rankings (#18 in the world) than football rankings (lowly #94) Plus Asia does much better in baseball world competitions than football.

中国应该放弃足球，转而专注于棒球，因为中国在棒球世界排名（第 18 位）上远比足球排名（低至第 94 位）更受尊重。此外，亚洲在棒球世界赛事中的表现也远胜于足球。

elviscostume
Well, baseball has far less countries that are interested in it. It's basically only North/Central America and a couple Asian countries. So China is essentially dead last in that respect. Whereas football is huge basically everywhere, so China is more like middle of the pack.

嗯，棒球感兴趣的国家要少得多。基本上只有北美/中美洲和几个亚洲国家。所以在这方面中国基本上是垫底的。而足球基本上在各地都很受欢迎，所以中国更像是中游水平。

a2zed4
Football is popular, but not in a national pastime way.

足球很受欢迎，但并不是全国性的消遣方式。

Idk anything about corruption, but my understanding is that the Chinese system is very top down in the way it scouts players from a young age and those are the only kids that play. Kids who don’t get scouted early spend their lives in school with no chance to play competitively or get scouted. In other countries, there’s a lot of grassroots development and kids can be picked up at a later age. Any kid can aspire to become a football player, specialized sports academy or not.

我对腐败一无所知，但我的理解是，中国的体系在从小选拔球员方面非常自上而下，只有那些被选中的孩子才能踢球。那些没有被早期选中的孩子一生都在学校里度过，没有机会参加竞技比赛或被选拔。在其他国家，有很多基层发展，孩子们可以在稍大一些的年龄被选中。任何孩子都可以渴望成为一名足球运动员，无论是否进入专门的体育学院。

I always like to think about Jeremy Lin when I think about all the potential talent that China misses out on when it comes to football/basketball. Short and skinny growing up, not overly athletic. Probably wouldn’t have made it into a Chinese sports academy. But his parents let him play in the American school system alongside school, he took it seriously and the rest is history. In China, he never would’ve played ball competitively.

每当想到中国在足球/篮球领域错失的潜在人才时，我总会想起林书豪。他从小身材矮小瘦弱，运动天赋并不突出，很可能无法进入中国的体育学院。但他的父母允许他在美国学校体系中边读书边打球，他认真对待这项运动，于是成就了后来的传奇。在中国，他恐怕永远没有机会参与竞技篮球。

Edit: also, China developed much later than both Japan and Korea. Those two countries have have decades of a head start in terms of figuring out development and coaching while China was still focused on pulling people out of poverty

编辑：此外，中国的发展比日本和韩国都要晚得多。这两个国家在探索发展和教练体系方面领先了几十年，而中国当时仍专注于脱贫工作。

Slime_Jime_Pickens
Football is actually quite popular in the US.

足球在美国其实相当受欢迎。

China is not a unique outlier in the world, as there is a group of reasonably wealthy countries whose national football teams underperform despite widespread casual play or even decent domestic leagues. This group contains countrlies like the USA, Russia, Mexico, Turkey, or Saudi Arabia. Issues of corruption aside, the general problem imo is that these countries have leagues that are wealthier than the actual level of play, and so domestic players don't have a good reason to leave. Subsequently, the only times they face higher levels of competition are in the international tournaments, where they struggle. If you look at the Japanese or Korean national squads you'll see that most of their players play in middle-level European teams, rather than the domestic league.

中国并非世界上的特例，因为有一批相对富裕的国家，尽管民间参与广泛甚至拥有不错的国内联赛，其国家足球队的表现却不尽如人意。这类国家包括美国、俄罗斯、墨西哥、土耳其或沙特阿拉伯等。撇开腐败问题不谈，我认为普遍问题在于这些国家的联赛财力远超实际竞技水平，导致国内球员缺乏出走的动力。因此，他们只有在国际赛事中才会遭遇更高水平的竞争，而这往往让他们举步维艰。如果你观察日本或韩国的国家队阵容，会发现他们大多数球员效力于欧洲中游球队，而非国内联赛。

Dry_Masterpiece_8219
At least until recently, didn't China prohibit players playing abroad from being part of the national team? India have the same problem.

至少直到最近，中国不是还禁止海外球员入选国家队吗？印度也有同样的问题。

Slime_Jime_Pickens
I'm not aware of any policy like that being in place for like, the last 2 decades

据我所知，过去二十年来并没有实施过这样的政策

No-Economist8663
Besides the whole association being corrupt as fuck, a bigger is reason is the lack of incentive.

除了整个协会腐败透顶之外，更大的原因是缺乏动力。

Korean and Japanese football have setup exchange programs with European clubs for decades now where they will send their youth talents to Europe on second league teams and learn. China did that too like 2 decades ago, that was when they had their biggest achievements. However compared to the Japanese and Korean players (with their respective domestic leagues being less financially competitive) they never wanted to stay for a longer extended period because they can easily go back to China make huge bucks by being the biggest fish in the pond, especially at that time sports betting as huuuuge in China. Even nowadays domestic players make a shit ton of money by being mediocre and not being competitive internationally had lead to a very bad loop so much that there isn't even a Chinese player in clubs Europe now.

韩国和日本足球与欧洲俱乐部建立交流项目已有数十年，他们会将青年才俊送到欧洲的二线球队学习。中国大约在二十年前也这样做过，那时他们取得了最大的成就。然而，与日本和韩国球员相比（他们各自的国内联赛在财务上竞争力较弱），中国球员从未愿意长期留在欧洲，因为他们可以轻松回到中国，成为池塘里最大的鱼，赚取巨额收入，尤其是在当时体育博彩在中国非常盛行。即使是现在，国内球员即使表现平庸、在国际上缺乏竞争力，也能赚取巨额收入，这导致了一个非常糟糕的循环，以至于现在欧洲俱乐部中甚至没有中国球员。

Starrylands
It's not just corruption. There simply isn't a focus on soccer as a sport in the mainland. Schools don't foster the arts or sports, unless its an actual arts or PE school. The focus for the 99% are on the Gao Kao, where it decides a person's future.

仅仅是腐败。中国大陆根本没有将足球作为一项运动来重视。学校不培养艺术或体育，除非是真正的艺术或体育学校。99%的人关注的是高考，这决定了一个人的未来。

Accomplished-Mark243
I don't know why so many post about corruption. It isn't corruption.

我不明白为什么这么多帖子都在谈论腐败。这并非腐败问题。

The real issue is a fundamental participation gap at the grassroots level.

真正的问题在于基层参与度存在根本性差距。

​If you walk into any school in China, you won't see kids playing football, you'll see them on the basketball court. Having a population of 1.4 billion people doesn't matter if only a tiny fraction of them actually play the sport. You can't find elite talent when the base of the pyramid is non-existent.

如果你走进中国的任何一所学校，都看不到孩子们在踢足球，只会看到他们在篮球场上。拥有 14 亿人口并不重要，因为真正参与这项运动的人只占极少数。当金字塔的根基不存在时，你无法找到顶尖人才。

​The government’s push for football success was fundamentally flawed because it was top-heavy. Instead of investing in primary schools and community pitches to grow the sport from the bottom up, they poured billions into high-end academies and aging international superstars. By the time players reach those elite academies, it’s often too late to develop the natural technical ability you see in South America or Europe.

政府推动足球成功的做法从根本上就是有缺陷的，因为它头重脚轻。他们没有投资于小学和社区球场，以自下而上的方式发展这项运动，而是将数十亿资金投入高端青训营和年迈的国际巨星。当球员进入这些精英青训营时，往往已经太晚，无法培养出你在南美或欧洲看到的那种天生的技术能力。

Corruption does exist in Chinese football and the recent life sentences for top football officials and national coaches prove that match-fixing and bribery have crippled the system. It is of course not great for Chinese football but with a lack of talented players, corruption or no corruption, China cannot be good at football.

中国足球确实存在腐败问题，最近顶级足球官员和国家队教练被判无期徒刑，证明了假球和贿赂已经严重损害了足球体系。这当然对中国足球不利，但即使没有腐败，由于缺乏有天赋的球员，中国也无法在足球上取得好成绩。

​Until the focus shifts from buying success at the professional level to building interest in primary schools, the national team will continue to struggle, regardless of how many officials they arrest.

除非将重心从职业层面的购买成功转向在小学阶段培养兴趣，否则无论逮捕多少官员，国家队仍将继续挣扎。

hereticjoe1984
The Chinese National Men's Football team is one of the few places where 'pro-China' and 'anti-China' camps actually find common ground.

中国男足是少数能让"亲华"和"反华"阵营真正找到共同点的地方之一。