苏霍伊-57成为印度首款第五代战机“首选”以对抗中国龙

Fourier_Unrequited
Likes: 27
"Emerges" What is the source for this procurement ?
 
“浮现”？这次采购的消息来源是什么？
 
nukleabomb
Likes: 32
Bad news from HAL -> Import rumors
PM visits any country -> Import rumors
Although this one is not unlikely, its basically just for clicks.
 
HAL（印度斯坦航空）传来坏消息 -> 进口谣言四起
总理出访任何国家 -> 进口谣言四起
虽然这事儿不是没可能，但这基本上就是为了博眼球骗点击的。
 
Top-Helicopter-7997
Likes: 8
Exactly. These are unconfirmed rumours, it’s likely clickbait.
 
没错。这些都是未经证实的谣言，很可能是标题党。
 
Whole-Difficulty4327
Likes: 11
Never believe any defense story published in Indian Media unless it's published by trusted journalists such as Shishir Gupta, Snehesh Alex Philip, or Ajit Dubey.
 
永远不要相信印度媒体发表的任何国防报道，除非是由 Shishir Gupta、Snehesh Alex Philip 或 Ajit Dubey 这样值得信赖的记者发表的。
 
ReasonableKale9996
Likes: 3
Snehesh has just reported on this
 
Snehesh 刚刚报道了这件事。
 
Connect_Visit5516
Likes: 5
U misunderstood him. Here is what he said:
On the Su57, it will be a political decision. The Su57 is not a stealth fighter. It has the capability to carry more lethal weapons.
But Su57 is a political decision when taken. To know about where Su57 stands, read
As I said, political decision. Any new deal with Russia can happen only after the war ends and it’s relations with the West and the US improves.
https://x.com/i/status/2025807329158209896
This is basically saying this deal has any chance of happening only if russia enters the market normally
 
你误解他的意思了。他是这么说的：
关于苏-57，这将是一个政治决定。苏-57不是隐身战机。它有能力携带更致命的武器。
但在做决定时，苏-57将是一个政治筹码。想了解苏-57的处境，请阅读……
正如我所说，这是政治决定。与俄罗斯的任何新协议，只有在战争结束且其与西方及美国关系改善后才可能达成。
这基本上是说，只有俄罗斯正常重返国际市场，这笔交易才有可能发生。
 
ReasonableKale9996
Likes: 4
But that does mean it is being considered. Also he is full of it if he thinks he can decide what a stealth fighter is. I have a dislike for his style of reporting which mixes in his opinion with what was told from sources which most people then misconstrue
 
但这确实意味着它正在被考虑之中。另外，如果他觉得他能定义什么是隐身战机，那他真是满嘴跑火车。我不喜欢他的报道风格，他总是把自己的观点和消息来源的内容混在一起，导致大多数人误解。
 
Whole-Difficulty4327
Likes: 3
You might've misinterpreted Snehesh's tweet.
 
你可能误解了 Snehesh 的推文。
 
Whole-Difficulty4327
Likes: 6
Any Foreign leader visits -> Import rumors
Any summit occurs -> Import rumors
Any Foreign official gives a press briefing -> Import rumors
 
任何外国领导人来访 -> 进口谣言
任何峰会召开 -> 进口谣言
任何外国官员举行新闻发布会 -> 进口谣言
 
LazyFalcon-7639
Likes: 21
i remember dhanoa saheb was claiming that J20 isnt 5th gen because it has canards and Rafale is enough for it.
edit: this is a jibe at him, i do not agree with what he said.
 
我记得 Dhanoa Saheb 曾声称 J-20 不是第五代战机，因为它有鸭翼，还说“阵风”足以对付它。
编辑：这是在嘲讽他，我并不赞同他的说法。
 
Low_Concentrate7168
Likes: 13
We lack critical , strategic and long term thinking as evident in many programs.
 
我们缺乏批判性、战略性和长远的思维，这一点在许多项目中都显而易见。
 
JGGarfield
Likes: 12
J-20 is absolutely 5th gen but I think its questionable how 5th gen the SU-57 is. I don't believe this story.
 
J-20 绝对是第五代战机，但我认为苏-57 到底算不算第五代还值得商榷。我不相信这篇报道。
 
LazyFalcon-7639
Likes: 5
I obviously dont agree with him, it was a jibe at this new "SU57 to counter the dragon".
 
我显然不同意他的观点，我是在嘲讽这个所谓的“苏-57 对抗中国龙”的新说法。
 
ReasonableKale9996
Likes: 1
Why is the the su 57 not fifth gen again?
 
为什么苏-57 又被说成不是第五代了？
 
iSaurabhSri
Likes: 2
A common theory that floats on different platforms is that SU-57 is not stealthy enough, it has a higher RCS signature than other 5th gen jets, it has some exposed screws that compromise with its stealth.
I don't know how true those theories are, verifying them is beyond my capabilities.
 
各个平台上流传的一个普遍理论是苏-57 的隐身性能不够，它的雷达散射截面特征比其他第五代战机要高，而且有一些裸露的螺丝破坏了其隐身性。
我不知道这些理论真实性如何，核实它们超出了我的能力范围。
 
Top-Helicopter-7997
Likes: 12
The most bs thing ever
J-20A, especially with it’s latest radar is imo the deadliest BVR fighter in the world
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, DO NOT underestimate the Chinese.
 
简直是史上最扯淡的说法。
J-20A，尤其是配备了最新雷达的型号，在我看来是世界上最致命的超视距战斗机。
我以前说过，现在再说一遍：千万不要低估中国人。
 
LazyFalcon-7639
Likes: 6
I obviously dont agree with him, it was a jibe at this new "SU57 to counter the dragon".
 
我显然不同意他的观点，我是在嘲讽这个所谓的“苏-57 对抗中国龙”的新说法。
 
Top-Helicopter-7997
Likes: 1
I see. I didn’t mean to target you, just saying this general phrase spreading across the Internet is incorrect that’s all.
 
我明白了。我没想针对你，我只是说网上流传的这种普遍说法是不正确的，仅此而已。
 
LazyFalcon-7639
Likes: 3
no worries. but its concerning that until recently (this was said in 2019 iirc), IAF did underestimate them.
 
没关系。但令人担忧的是，直到最近（如果我没记错的话是在 2019 年说的），印度空军确实低估了他们。
 
docsaro
Likes: 2
Chinese will fight India through Pakis only. It’s very expensive to fight directly.History says it. They r not even able to touch the minuscule Taiwan.
 
中国只会通过巴基斯坦人来打印度。直接开战代价太高了，历史已经证明了这一点。他们甚至连小小的台湾（地区）都不敢碰。
 
VettiMuruku
Likes: 7
They are not touching Taiwan since the US + it's ALLIES will retaliate. While they might not want direct confrontation with us now, however it's clear we are the target after Taiwan.
 
他们不碰台湾（地区）是因为美国及其盟友会进行报复。虽然他们现在可能不想与我们直接对抗，但很明显，台湾（地区）之后的目标就是我们。
 
hsting61292
Likes: 1
Forget common people, even upper echelons of Armed forces need to learn basics of fighter jets production process and power of iteration.
 
别说普通人了，就连武装部队的高层也需要学习战斗机生产流程和迭代力量的基础知识。
 
docsaro
Likes: 1
India should put all the resources in AMCA . Pvt production parter is all that’s going to make sense
. They can certainly meet the deadlines with necessary human resources and technology needed for prototyping . If we are able to create a working prototype on certain timelines, then there is no reason to go down in front of Russians again .
 
印度应该把所有资源都投入到 AMCA（先进中型战斗机）项目上。私营生产合作伙伴才是唯一合理的出路。
只要有必要的人力资源和原型机所需的技术，他们肯定能按时完成任务。如果我们能在特定时间内造出可运行的原型机，就没有理由再向俄罗斯人低头了。
 
ReasonableKale9996
Likes: 2
Dont think this is clickbait. This was always going to happen once IAF got the Rafales approved. They need a fifth gen asap to counter the Chinese threat especially since the super sukhoi and AMCA programs are now delayed. It's a shame really how slow we are. They need to make sure this is thoroughly Mkized with our radar and sdr for this to make any sense
 
别以为这是标题党。一旦印度空军批准了“阵风”战机，这事儿迟早会发生。他们需要尽快获得第五代战机来应对中国威胁，特别是考虑到“超级苏霍伊”和 AMCA 项目现在都延期了。我们的速度之慢真的很丢人。他们需要确保这架飞机彻底“MKI化”（印度化），配备我们的雷达和软件无线电（SDR），这样才有意义。
 
SignSilly7350
Likes: 2
Bs, This is article is probably funded by the Russians they have down bad.
 
扯淡，这篇文章很可能是俄罗斯人资助的，他们现在处境很惨。
 
Cyphh3rR_FI
Likes: 2
Well there were talks about technology transfer. If that happens, it could be a boost for Indian research and advancement efforts. The biggest help would still be the reformation of HAL to produce more frxs per year from a capacity of 10-12 Su30 MKI to around 30. Because of the same series, it might be easier to produce SU57 at home
 
嗯，之前确实有关于技术转让的讨论。如果这能成真，对印度的研究和进步将是一个推动。最大的帮助仍然是改革 HAL（印度斯坦航空），将其年产量从 10-12 架苏-30 MKI 提高到 30 架左右。因为属于同一系列，在国内生产苏-57 可能会更容易些。
 
nukleabomb
Likes: 3
Su-57 is a heavy fighter, just like the Su-30. It is great for air launched missiles, with a potentially good MUMT capability. If they can make a twin seat variant (which is supposedly going to fly this year), then it is a 5th gen Su-30 in essence.
AMCA is a proper medium fighter and will not overlap much with the Su-57.
However, if India gets these Sukhois, they better be an MKI of the best possible export variant (ideally 2 seater).
 
苏-57 是重型战斗机，就像苏-30 一样。它非常适合携带空射导弹，并且具有潜在的良好有人-无人编队（MUMT）能力。如果他们能制造出双座改型（据说今年会试飞），那它本质上就是第五代的苏-30。
AMCA 是正经的中型战斗机，不会与苏-57 有太多重叠。
不过，如果印度真的买了这些苏霍伊战机，最好是 MKI 版本的最佳出口型号（理想情况下是双座）。
 
Cyphh3rR_FI
Likes: 5
You're quite right. It is a heavy multirole air superiority fighter but it also has a high degree of ground striking capabilities. So just like SU30 was a middle ground version of SU34 and SU35, it is just a 5th gen version.
The AMCA project doesn't have much overlap but the engine tech like turbine blades and thrust vectoring, and radar absorption and avoidance will definitely prove to be a massive bridge and compress the development timeline without quality compromise
 
你说得很对。这是一款重型多用途空中优势战斗机，但也具备很强的对地打击能力。就像苏-30 是苏-34 和苏-35 的折中版本一样，它就是第五代版本。
AMCA 项目虽然重叠不多，但涡轮叶片、推力矢量等发动机技术，以及雷达吸波和规避技术，肯定会成为一座巨大的桥梁，在不牺牲质量的情况下压缩开发时间。
 
nukleabomb
Likes: 3
Absolutely. If nothing else, it will keep HAL in touch with 5th gen.
 
绝对的。就算没别的，这也能让 HAL 接触到第五代技术。
 
Cyphh3rR_FI
Likes: 2
Still, HAL reforms would be a much better thing to do. They plan on producing 30 Tejas jets every year but it's been grounded following the latest 3rd crash. They should rather dedicate some capacity to build new SU30 frxs and increase and upxe their production capabilities if SU57 technology transfer actually gains fruition
 
话虽如此，改革 HAL 才是正道。他们计划每年生产 30 架“光辉”战机，但在最近发生第三次坠机事故后，该机型已被停飞。如果苏-57 的技术转让真能实现，他们还不如腾出一些产能来制造新的苏-30 机身，并提升和更新生产能力。
 
nukleabomb
Likes: 1
Both are needed,
 
两者都需要。
 
Cyphh3rR_FI
Likes: 2
That's why I said some capacity, not the entire thing. Even the Tejas program is at the benefit of Russian 5th gen tech actually getting to HAL. SU57 is very stable even after its massive size, lessons for HAL  on airfrx stability.
 
所以我才说是腾出“一些”产能，而不是全部。如果有俄罗斯第五代技术真正进入 HAL，连“光辉”项目也会受益。苏-57 即使体型巨大也非常稳定，这能给 HAL 上一堂关于机身稳定性的课。
 
ReasonableKale9996
Likes: 1
Firstly it was not a crash. It overran the runway tdue to a brake failure. Andthe fleet is not grounded. Pls think before making unchecked claims
 
首先，那不是坠机。那是因刹车失灵冲出了跑道。而且机队并没有停飞。请在发表未经核实的言论前过过脑子。
 
Cyphh3rR_FI
Likes: 1
Bro the place I live at, all the news and sources say that it has been grounded. Literally all of them, I spent like 30 minutes searching it up on multiple places
 
兄弟，我住的地方，所有新闻和消息源都说已经停飞了。真的是所有的，我花了大概 30 分钟在好多地方查证。
 
ReasonableKale9996
Likes: 2
This is going to be the original FGFA we envisioned with MUMT future capabilities. I'm guessing the work share wasn't enough earlier to put as much money in joint dev, neither was the platform mature enough to buy. Now that the platform is mature and we also have a lot of the needed stuff developed it is very much possible to do an Mki. We have the GaN radar tech, maws, rwr, jammer, irst, net centric stuff, lpi , sensor fusion all happening. In fact this and mk2 will provide a great platform for testing out all the tech we have developed so far in a true heavyweight fifth gen airfrx. Btw that airfrx and engine are a thing of beauty. Have always thought Russians are great whenit comes to aero and engine tech. They had fallen behind in engine but they have really seemed to claw back a lot of the gap with he izdeliye 30
 
这将是我们最初设想的具备未来有人-无人编队（MUMT）能力的 FGFA。我猜之前是因为工作份额不足以让我们在联合开发中投入那么多资金，平台也不够成熟，不值得买。现在平台成熟了，我们也开发了很多必要的东西，做一个 MKI 版本是非常可能的。我们有氮化镓（GaN）雷达技术、导弹逼近告警系统（MAWS）、雷达告警接收机（RWR）、干扰机、红外搜索跟踪系统（IRST）、网络中心战能力、低截获概率（LPI）技术、传感器融合等等。
 
事实上，这和 MK2 将提供一个绝佳的平台，让我们在真正的重型第五代机身上测试迄今为止开发的所有技术。顺便说一句，那个机身和引擎真是太美了。我一直认为俄罗斯人在航空和发动机技术方面很棒。他们在发动机方面曾一度落后，但凭借“产品 30”（izdeliye 30），他们似乎真的缩小了很大差距。
 
ReasonableKale9996
Likes: 1
If I hear ToT once more I will tear my already receding hair off. Pls read up on what we have got so far with so called ToT
 
如果我再听到“技术转让”（ToT）这个词，我就要把我那本来就稀疏的头发揪下来了。请去读读我们在所谓的 ToT 方面到底得到了什么。
 
Cyphh3rR_FI
Likes: 1
Bro I said there were talks and if that happens. I'm just hypothesizing
 
兄弟，我说的是“有过会谈”以及“如果发生的话”。我只是在假设。
 
Slashwarrior7
Likes: 3
Idk why we still strive for the silver bullet , if for argument sake we say the J-20 is utter failure for a fifth gen fighter and su57 is one of the best 5th gen fighter their is even better than f22 , we still simply cannot counter 300+ J-20 because of the sheer number the plaAF brings to the table with 40 so what su57 out of which 20 will be stationed near Pakistan
 
我不知道为什么我们还在追求所谓的“杀手锏”。退一万步讲，假设 J-20 作为第五代战机完全失败，而苏-57 是最好的第五代战机之一，甚至比 F-22 还好，我们仍然无法对抗 300 多架 J-20。因为中国空军带来的数量太庞大了，而我们只有 40 架苏-57，其中 20 架还得部署在巴基斯坦附近。
 
TackleRepulsive2237
Likes: 1
Stationed near Pakistan is a very wrong term. IAF jets operate inter theatre, so I do not think there is something as for pakistan if a conflict comes, IAF can use all 40-60 SU57 against China
 
“部署在巴基斯坦附近”这个说法非常错误。印度空军的战机是跨战区作战的，所以如果发生冲突，我不认为会有专门针对巴基斯坦的说法，印度空军可以用全部 40-60 架苏-57 来对抗中国。
 
Slashwarrior7
Likes: 1
Ok you want to put all 40-50 of them in western theatre fine but my point still stands , in a war that will exceed 3-4 days plaAF will walk over iaf and we all know that , they literally build 100+ J-20 every year , their is genuinely no competition, you cannot counter an air force of that scale
 
好吧，你想把所有 40-50 架都放在西部战区也行，但我的观点依然成立。在一场超过 3-4 天的战争中，中国空军将碾压印度空军，这是我们都知道的事实。他们每年真的能造 100 多架 J-20，这根本没有可比性，你无法对抗这种规模的空军。
 
TackleRepulsive2237
Likes: 3
yeah i know, just want to correct a particular point
try with geography if you really want to defend against China. Quantity will not help
 
是的，我知道，我只是想纠正某个具体的点。
如果你真的想防御中国，试着利用地理优势吧。光靠数量是没用的。
 
slayer-00069
Likes: 2
kaveri ko fund kre jhaat bhat, import kare rat bhar
 
给卡佛里（Kaveri）发动机的资金少得可怜（连根毛都不给），搞进口倒是搞得热火朝天。
 
MranonymousSir
Likes: 2
Bhai fund krke aesa nahi hai ki bc kal he engine 90kn thrust nikalne lag jayega..
 
兄弟，给资金也没用啊，又不是说给了钱，明天发动机就能搞出 90kN 推力了……
 
slayer-00069
Likes: 1
baat aaj kl ki nhi hai
ab tk soo rahe the kya, pehle fund kyu nhi kiya bc 1000 cr from 1980 till today isse kya hoga
 
这不是这一两天的事。
以前都在睡觉吗？为什么早不给资金？特么的从 1980 年到现在才给 1000 亿卢比，这能顶个屁用啊？
 
MranonymousSir
Likes: 2
There is no point discussing the past.
Our immediate threat is Pak acquiring 5th gen before us, and trust for that no matter how we do it we need a 5th gen jet to counter it.
Speculation mein thodi bethe rhenge ki abhi toh bahut time hai n all...
Arey future ke liye apni local R&D mein spend krte raho but immediate threat ko toh address karo
 
讨论过去没有意义。
我们面临的直接威胁是巴基斯坦会在我们之前获得第五代战机。相信我，无论如何，我们需要一款第五代战机来对抗它。
我们不能光坐在那儿推测，想着还有很多时间之类的……
哎呀，为了未来继续投资本土研发没问题，但得先把眼前的威胁解决了啊。
 
chayanjit
Likes: 1
I am certain this is a psy-op to make a narrative against Rafale somehow.
 
我确信这就是一次心理战，目的是为了制造某种针对“阵风”战机的叙事。
 
[dexed]
Likes: 1
well we aren't gonna have SU-57MKIs...it's clear that IAF has dumped Russia...
 
好吧，我们不会有苏-57 MKI 的……很明显印度空军已经抛弃俄罗斯了……
 
proudtobebanned
Likes: 1
Until the European FTA is inked, ratified, and active, and the Russia-Ukraine war is over (or terms for its conclusion have been agreed to), no deal for fighter jets will be signed by India with Russia.
This doesn't mean this deal won't happen. The Russia-Ukraine conflict won't be over for another 2-3 years. SU-57 mass production in Russia will need that much time to pick up pace, if not more. And India-EU FTA (as well as the India-US interim trade deal) will need another year or two at minimum to be a part of the legal frxwork.
So, considering a 5 year time frx, a SU-57 MKI deal can certainly happen. Going into mid-2030s, fully functioning domestic production lines of Tejas MK2, Rafale (partial production with localization of armaments), AMCA (this will be the centerpoint), and SU-57 (with promised full ToT) are a good possibility. It will give us both the heft needed to tackle Pakistan and impose heavy cost considerations on Chinese plans.
 
在印欧自由贸易协定签署、批准并生效，以及俄乌战争结束（或达成结束条款）之前，印度不会与俄罗斯签署任何战机协议。
但这并不意味着这笔交易不会发生。俄乌冲突至少还要 2-3 年才会结束。苏-57 在俄罗斯的大规模生产也需要那么多时间才能提速，甚至更久。而印欧自由贸易协定（以及印美临时贸易协议）至少还需要一两年才能成为法律框架的一部分。
 
所以，考虑到 5 年的时间框架，苏-57 MKI 的交易肯定是有可能的。进入 2030 年代中期，拥有功能完备的“光辉”MK2、阵风（部分生产及武器本地化）、AMCA（这将是核心）以及苏-57（承诺完全技术转让）的国内生产线是非常可能的。这将赋予我们对抗巴基斯坦所需的实力，并给中国的计划施加沉重的成本考量。
 
RageBlaze007
Likes: 1
So then what about our 5th gen fighter jet plan?
 
那我们的第五代战机计划怎么办？
 
Schwifty234
Likes: 0
The su 57 isn't really a fighter, it's a bomber. And it's the last dedicated medium supersonic bomber after the US retired the aardvark, so if the IAF decided it needs a dedicated medium fighter bomber, this is the only choice.
 
苏-57 并不是真正的战斗机，它是轰炸机。而且它是美国退役“土豚”（F-111）之后最后一款专用的中型超音速轰炸机。所以如果印度空军决定需要一款专用的中型战斗轰炸机，这就是唯一的选择。
 
New_Chipmunk_8135
Likes: -1
Love it. Buying from a country that operates under Chinese suzerainty. And wholly dependent on Chinese semi conductors for air planes . But look against Pakistan it’s enough. And I actually don’t think Pakistan is gonna get J35s. Too much information will leak to USA. They might get more J10C but that’s about it.
Also 76 IQ people in this sub seem to think I’m Pakistani. Like…that’s the biggest compliment to Pakistan. Have you EVER met a Pakistani with this level of English eloquence? Yeah exactly.
 
爱了。从一个在某种程度上是当中国小弟的国家买东西。飞机用的半导体还完全依赖中国。但这用来对付巴基斯坦倒也够了。而且我其实不认为巴基斯坦会拿到 J-35。那样会泄露太多信息给美国。他们可能会拿到更多 J-10C，但也仅此而已了。
另外，这个板块里那些智商只有 76 的人似乎觉得我是巴基斯坦人。拜托……这是对巴基斯坦最大的赞美了好吧。你们见过英语口才这么好的巴基斯坦人吗？就是说啊。
 
Both-Manufacturer419
Likes: 3
Pakistan will receive the J-35A the day after India receives its fifth-generation fighter jet.
 
就在印度接收其第五代战机的第二天，巴基斯坦就会收到 J-35A。
 
New_Chipmunk_8135
Likes: 0
Only if J36 and J50 are inducted in decent numbers. Then yes. All fifth gen will be an open sale. Even J20 won’t be off the table.
 
除非 J-36 和 J-50 已经大量列装了，那才有可能。到时候所有第五代战机都会公开销售。甚至 J-20 都不会是非卖品。