中国的歼-20能在近距离缠斗中击败美国的F-35吗？

Jesuan Wu：
Chinese J-20 has no gun, Chinese J-35 and J-50 prototypes seem to have no short range missile bays. I don’t feel secure at all with this Chinese emphasis on taking down enemy planes from 100 kilometers away and beyond, especially with stealth fighters and bombers, but I can only assume that they know what they’re doing and Chinese radars really have become so good.

中国的歼-20没有机炮，歼-35和歼-50的原型机似乎也没有近程导弹舱。我对这种强调从100公里甚至更远距离击落敌机的做法感到很不踏实，特别是考虑到隐身战斗机和轰炸机的情况，但我只能假设他们知道自己在做什么，而且中国的雷达确实已经变得非常出色了。

Nicolas：
China’s main concern is to protect themselves from the US. So they will operate with ground radar that can detect the rough location of stealth fighters. Most likely they will keep their manned fighters at longer distance and then send in the accompanying drones possibly carrying short range missiles to find and track enemy fighters.

中国的主要关注点是自我防御以对抗美国。因此，他们会利用地面雷达来探测隐身战斗机的大致位置。最有可能的情况是，他们会让载人战斗机保持在较远距离，然后派遣携带近程导弹的伴随无人机去寻找并追踪敌方战斗机。

Frédéric：
“So they will operate with ground radar that can detect the rough location of stealth fighters” → Don’t you know that China now has best AWACS planes in the world? Ground radar do help as well, but I’m sure that Chinese pilots won’t fly their fighter jets without their KJ-500, KJ-600, KJ-700 and even KJ-3000 behind them.

“因此，他们会利用地面雷达来探测隐身战斗机的大致位置”——难道你不知道中国现在拥有世界上最好的预警机吗？地面雷达确实有帮助，但我敢肯定，如果没有空警-500、空警-600、空警-700甚至空警-3000在后方支援，中国飞行员是不会驾驶战斗机升空的。

Yael Kok：
China has made remarkable progress in developing advanced airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft—often called AWACS—and today ranks among the global leaders in this field. Its modern platforms, such as the KJ-500 and the newer KJ-3000, demonstrate impressive technological maturity... However, while these achievements highlight China’s rapid progress, it would be premature to describe its AWACS fleet as the best in the world.

中国在研制先进的预警机（AEW&C，通常称为AWACS）方面取得了显著进展，如今已跻身该领域的全球领导者行列。其空警-500和较新的空警-3000等现代平台展示了令人印象深刻的技术成熟度……然而，虽然这些成就突显了中国的快速进步，但现在就称其预警机机队为世界最强还为时过早。

John Kirlin：
China’s main concern has shifted to how to invade and conquer Taiwan.

中国的主要关注点已经转向了如何收复台湾（地区）。
佳慧 解：

China has never paid attention to how to invade and conquer Taiwan, because Taiwan is an inseparable part of China. China protects its territory and improves the lives of its people, that's all.

中国从未关注过如何入Qin和征服台湾（地区），因为台湾（地区）是中国不可分割的一部分。中国保护自己的领土并改善人民的生活，仅此而已。

W. T.：
To be fair, the U.S. is also moving away from short-range engagements. So if it’s the wrong move, both countries are in the same boat.

公平地说，美国也在逐渐远离近距离交战。所以如果这一步走错了，两国都处在同一条船上。

Peter Chan：
If you look at most kills in modern US air force or navy, they are 99% BVR kills. It’s been like this since the 80s.

如果你观察现代美国空军或海军的大多数击落记录，99%都是超视距（BVR）击落。自80年代以来一直如此。

Iwan Fals：
sadly we didn’t learn our lesson from the f4 and vietnam.

遗憾的是，我们没有从F-4和越南战争中吸取教训。

Kevin Seetoh：
its a system… satellites, ground radars, awacs and lastly fighter jets to launch the missiles… all these operate as an entire system…

这是一个体系……卫星、地面雷达、预警机，最后才是发射导弹的战斗机……所有这些都是作为一个整体系统运行的。

Peter Chan：
I have to disagree with you on this one. The stuff you see in Top Gun is actually not realistic. They borrowed from WW2 aerial combat to craft their actions, and perhaps some of Vietnam war era dogfights.


在这一点上我不得不反驳你。《壮志凌云》里看到的东西其实并不现实。他们的动作设计借鉴了二战时期的空战，或许还有一些越战时期的缠斗。

Peter Chan：
Mig 17, don’t let the low number fools you, it was the most agile aircraft in Vietnam war. With 3 machine guns, it is literately a WW2 dogfighter with Jet engine. American F5E Tiger or F4 Phantom would be at disadvantage if they try to dog fight this one. (even after they re-arm F4 with machine gun).

不要被米格-17那较小的编号给骗了，它是越战中最灵活的飞机。它配备三门机炮，本质上就是一台装了喷气发动机的二战格斗机。美国的F-5E“虎”式或F-4“幽灵”如果试图与之缠斗，都会处于劣势（即便是在F-4重新加装了机炮之后也是如此）。

Peter Chan：
F15 had overwhelmingly awesome kill ratio. But if you look at the fine print, you will learn that 99% of their kills are …. BVR. F15 relied heavily on radar, jamming and other avionics. If a Mig-29 catches F15 at close range, F15 is likely done for.

F-15拥有压倒性的出色击杀率。但如果你仔细查看细节，你会发现其99%的击杀都是……超视距完成的。F-15严重依赖雷达、干扰和其他航空电子设备。如果米格-29在近距离捕捉到F-15，F-15很可能就完蛋了。

Peter Chan：
J20 in reality is a very big interceptor (like the old Mig25). It integrates well with theater movements. It gets into position very quickly (and stealthily), then launch the payload, and run home. F15 or F22 can taunt a duel…. J20 will laugh and fly off.

歼-20实际上是一个非常大的截击机（类似于旧款的米格-25）。它能很好地融入战区行动。它能非常迅速（且隐蔽地）进入位置，投射火力，然后返航。F-15或F-22可以挑衅要求决斗……歼-20会一笑了之并飞走。

John Kirlin：
China’s definition of stealth does not equal US or European definition of stealth. Not even the Russian definition. Also, don’t overlook Israeli F15 gun kills. Israeli pilots will make gun kills for fun, when a missile kill would have been quicker and easier.

中国对隐身的定义不等于美国或欧洲的定义。甚至不等于俄罗斯的定义。此外，不要忽视以色列F-15的机炮击杀。以色列飞行员有时为了好玩会使用机炮击杀，即便使用导弹本可以更快更简单。

C.l. Barrie：
Yet, every war game shows China losing (with US taking considerable losses in aircraft and multiple ships). China still loses.

然而，每一次兵棋推演都显示中国会输（尽管美国也会损失大量的飞机和多艘舰船）。中国最终还是会输。

Metal Videos：
There is something the Chinese fighter jets can that no US jet can. and that is being equipped with Hypersonic missiles.

中国战斗机能做一件美国战机做不到的事，那就是装备高超音速导弹。

C.l. Barrie：
Meaningless

毫无意义。

Chris Kerwin：
China does not have any hypersonic missiles that are air launched from a fighter nor do they have plans to procure one.

中国没有任何可以由战斗机空射的高超音速导弹，也没有采购计划。

Metal Videos：
HAHAHAHA keep believing that. ever read the Art Of War? never underestimate your enemy. China possesses a diverse arsenal of hypersonic missiles, primarily boost-glide vehicles (HGVs) like the DF-17 (carrying the DF-ZF glider) and advanced anti-ship missiles such as the YJ-17, YJ-19, YJ-20, and YJ-21...

哈哈哈哈，接着信你的吧。读过《孙子兵法》吗？永远不要低估你的敌人。中国拥有多样化的高超音速导弹库，主要是像东风-17（携带DF-ZF滑翔体）这样的助推滑翔载具（HGV），以及像鹰击-17、鹰击-19、鹰击-20和鹰击-21这样先进的反舰导弹……

Chris Kerwin：
The claim you made was that China can air launch a hypersonic missile from a fighter. None of the missiles you just mentioned can be carried by a J-11, J-16 or J-20 which are largest fighters in the Chinese inventory. The missiles you’re talking about weight in excess of two metric tons which is a tremendous amount of weight to put on a single hardpoint of a fighter.

你声称的是中国可以从战斗机上空射高超音速导弹。你刚才提到的那些导弹，没有一种是歼-11、歼-16或歼-20能挂载的，而这些已经是中国库存中最大的战斗机了。你所说的导弹重量超过两公吨，对于战斗机的单个外挂点来说，这个重量太惊人了。

Chris Kerwin：
Some of those missiles can be air launched from the H-6 bomber which is 37 metric ton subsonic bomber with a radar signature the size of a football field. Comparable US bombers can be detected on radar at distances in excess of 400 miles. The B-52, B-1B and B-21 can carry exactly the same kinds of weapons and the B-21 is also highly stealthy.

其中一些导弹可以由轰-6轰炸机空射，那是一架37公吨级的亚音速轰炸机，雷达反射面积像足球场那么大。类似的美国轰炸机在400英里外就能被雷达探测到。B-52、B-1B和B-21也可以携带完全相同种类的武器，而且B-21还具有高度隐身性。
Adrian Qiu(秋霞)：

I don't remember modern submachine guns still needing bayonets. I also don't remember aircraft carriers needing to use rams to sink the other side.

我不记得现代冲锋枪还需要刺刀。我也不记得航空母舰需要靠撞角来撞沉对方。

Ryan Crawford：
What do you think is meant by “close dogfight”?

你认为“近距离缠斗”是指什么？
凛冬将至：

The J-20S can carry 1 to 6 loyal wingmen. Close-range dogfights would mean a potential 7-on-1 scenario, which is clearly highly unfavorable to the F-35...

歼-20S可以携带1到6架“忠诚僚机”。近距离缠斗可能意味着出现7对1的局面，这对F-35显然非常不利……
Adrian Qiu(秋霞)：

I think that’s something that should never happen to even a fifth-generation fighter.

我认为这种情况即使是对第五代战斗机来说也绝不该发生。

Kevin Seetoh：
have no idea why ppl are so obsessed with dogfights… ohhhh i know…these ppl watch too much TOPGUN…and think every pilot is tom cruise.. LOL

搞不懂为什么人们对近战格斗这么痴迷……噢我知道了……这些人《壮志凌云》看多了，觉得每个飞行员都是汤姆·克鲁斯。哈哈。

W. T.：
One version of the F35 also doesn't have an integrated gun. Imagine two pilots dancing through the skies to line up shots… only to realize that neither one of them has weapons.

F-35的一个型号也没有内置机炮。想象一下两名飞行员在空中盘旋对峙，试图锁定对方……结果却发现谁都没带武器。

Tim Chin：
American pilots during Vietnam War thought missiles would do all the shooting and so a mini gun wasn’t even included on certain fighter jets. They soon found out that missiles can be evaded or failing to hit and needed a backup once you are out of them.

越战期间，美国飞行员以为导弹能解决所有战斗，所以某些战斗机甚至没装机炮。他们很快发现导弹会被躲掉或打不中，一旦打光了就需要备用手段。

Otto Chen：
That was right at the beginning of radars and radar missiles though.

不过，那毕竟是雷达和雷达导弹刚刚起步的时代。

John Kirlin：
But what if the revolver’s six rounds were already spent!! better be equipped for and know how to dogfight.

但如果左轮手枪的六发子弹已经打光了呢！！最好还是做好格斗准备并掌握格斗技巧。

RS Rex：
Think of it this way: equipping for a dogfight is like fitting a bayonet on a modern rifle. It's a weight from the past, taking up space that could be used for more ammo or a better optic. The J-20 is a sniper rifle, not a musket. And if I fire all my long-range rounds and haven't disengaged to reload... well, charging in with a bayonet isn't a tactic, it's a museum exhibit.

这样想吧：为缠斗做准备就像给现代步枪装刺刀。它是过时的包袱，占用了本可以用来装更多弹药或更好光学瞄具的空间。歼-20是狙击步枪，不是火枪。如果我打光了所有远程弹药还没撤离去补给……那么，拿着刺刀冲锋不是战术，而是博物馆里的陈列品。

KC135BOOMER：
You said it yourself that dog fights will be a thing of the past up close so why are you saying that the j20 doesn't even have a minigun it doesn't need one. Today's air-to-air missiles strike from beyond their horizon That's where the fighting is going to happen.

你自己都说了近距离格斗将成为过去，那为什么还要纠结歼-20连机枪都没有呢，它根本不需要。今天的空对空导弹是在地平线以外发起打击的，那才是战斗发生的地方。

John Kirlin：
At some point, every fighter (and drone) runs out of missles…

在某些时刻，每架战斗机（和无人机）都会耗尽导弹……

Otto Chen：
At that point you fucking return and dont engage in dogfights.

到那个时候你就该立马撤回，而不是去打什么缠斗。

WCKK：
From the recent incidence, one J-16 already locked on 2 unit of J-22! What else we need to say?

根据最近的事件，一架歼-16已经锁定了两架歼-22（注：应指F-22）！还有什么好说的？

Chris Bean：
The “recent incident” with “unnamed” stealth fighters a) certainly didn't happen. The pilot described performing the opening screen of Top Gun lol. b) definitely was not an F-22 if it was “off the coast of China”. The F-22’s primary weakness is its limited range.

关于“无名”隐身战机的“最近事件”：a) 肯定没发生过，那个飞行员描述得像《壮志凌云》开场画面似的；b) 如果是在“中国沿海”，那绝对不是F-22。F-22的主要弱点就是航程有限。

Felix Yu：
The 2025 PAF shoot-down of an Indian jet with PL-15 was born of a simple scxt: a stealthy J-20 slips forward, an AWACS 400 km away cues the shot... Once the kill ratio of 108:0 was demonstrated in exercises. Then they thought, why not copy the same tactic onto J-16s and J-10Cs by giving them radar-absorbent coatings.

2025年巴基斯坦空军用霹雳-15击落印度战机的剧本很简单：隐身的歼-20向前摸排，400公里外的预警机引导射击……演习中曾证明过108:0的战损比。于是他们想，为什么不给歼-16和歼-10C涂上吸波材料，把这些战机当作可消耗的发射架来复刻这种战术呢？

Felix Yu：
Lengthen the fist: PL-17, 350–400 km range... Jam the jammer: the RCT-158B EW suite can break into U.S. communications, and play Children’s cartoon show Pleasant Goat and Big Big Wolf on your screen... To our opponents: we hope you possess a will of steel—after all, our steel already has a will of its own now.

延长拳头：霹雳-17，射程350-400公里……干扰干扰机：RCT-158B电子战套件能入侵美国通讯，然后在你的屏幕上播放动画片《喜羊羊与灰太狼》……致我们的对手：希望你们拥有钢铁般的意志——毕竟，我们的钢铁现在已经有了它自己的意志。

Sunway：
Haha, their "will of steel" is manifested in the weed enthusiasts on the streets.
​

哈哈，他们的钢铁意志体现在街头的叶子爱好者

Malcolm Hardy：
F4 phantom Vietnam had no gun big mistake. You don’t know what you don’t know until you know. How do you do close Air support without guns?

越战时的F-4幽灵没有机炮是个大错误。在事情发生前你永远不知道缺什么。没有机炮你怎么做近距离空中支援？

Otto Chen：
The J-20 isnt meant for close air support.

歼-20本就不是为了近距离空中支援而设计的。

Robert Tanoni：
dogfight GOOD until 1973 war after that in lebanon war, iran iraq war Phoenix, Sparrow, AA-6 Acrid, Matra 530 became sky ruler.

近战缠斗在1973年战争之前还行，在那之后的黎巴嫩战争、两伊战争中，“不死鸟”、“麻雀”、AA-6、马特拉530等导弹成为了天空的主宰。

John Kirlin：
Israeli pilots still make gun kills for fun. Even when missile kills would have been easier and quicker.

以色列飞行员现在仍会为了好玩用机炮击杀。即便使用导弹本可以更简单快捷。

TSZtomson：
Perhaps encountering a fifth generation piloted aircraft in aerial combat is a luxury. The overwhelming drones are the nightmare. I hope the entire NATO industrial capability can provide us with enough aircraft to counter China.

或许在空战中遇到第五代载人战机已经是一种奢侈了，铺天盖地的无人机才是噩梦。我希望整个北约的工业能力能为我们提供足够的飞机来对抗中国。

Diego Yu：
It is difficult. The 155mm shells produced in Europe each month are only enough for the Ukrainian battlefield for one week. The amount of gunpowder used in fireworks during the Spring Festival in China every year even exceeds the total amount used in World War II.

这很难。欧洲每月生产的155毫米炮弹仅够乌克兰战场使用一周。而中国每年春节燃放烟花所消耗的火药量甚至超过了二战的总消耗量。

Sunway：
Brother, why counter China? What has China done to you? Did they steal your house or money? As far as I know, China has provided you with many daily necessities.

兄弟，为什么要对抗中国呢？中国对你们做了什么？难道抢了你们的房子、钱？据我所知，中国为你们提供了很多生活必需品

Jackson Haslam：
One thing you missed: the US still trains its pilots to dogfight in case they get into such a situation. China doesn’t train as much as the US in dogfighting. So, in a close in fight. I’d always bet on a US pilot.

你错过了一点：美国仍在训练飞行员进行缠斗以防万一。中国在缠斗训练上不像美国那么多。所以如果是近身肉搏，我永远赌美国飞行员赢。

Sunway：
By the time an F-22 or F-35 is shot down, it’ll be over before they even know what happened.

当f22或者f35被击落的时候，都不知道发生了什么就结束了

Sayeed Azam：
Are you that confident your radar will detect the enemy aicraft that far ahead... What if the enemy aircraft is an F-35 and your radar would have difficulties detecting it even in ideal conditions?

你真的那么自信雷达能在那么远就发现敌机吗？如果敌机是F-35，即使在理想条件下你的雷达也很难探测到它，那该怎么办？

Alberto Salazar：
Yes a J-20 can win in a dog fight with an F-35. It already happened in playStation and Nintendo.

是的，歼-20能在缠斗中赢过F-35。这已经在索尼playStation和任天堂游戏里发生过了。

Ziwu Gan：
China J-20 can one shot, one kill，Dont you know? Many F-35s have already crashed.

中国歼-20可以一击必杀，你不知道吗？许多F-35已经坠毁了。

Ciying：
Modern air combat doesn't need within-visual-range duels at all. Do you think it's still the 20th century? In modern air combat, we have KJ-800 and KJ-2000 to lock onto enemy targets from long range...

现代空战跟不需要视距内决斗，以为还是20世纪吗？现在空战我们直接有空警-800和空警-2000远距离锁定敌方目标单位...

Ed Lam：
Folks need to be remember US fighters even use medium ranged AIM-120 in dogfight range.

大家需要记住，美国战斗机甚至在格斗距离内使用中程的AIM-120导弹。

Klaus Schlussler：
Just look at the Chinese Japan J15 vs F15 drama and how Japan pulled there tail in.

看看中日之间歼-15对阵F-15的那场戏码吧，看日本是怎么夹着尾巴逃跑的。