当俄罗斯工程师测试中国的苏-27仿制品时 - 他们拒绝将其飞回莫斯科

@SlenderGhost23
Russia got cash and political survival; China got the blueprints. Both sides knew exactly what the deal was

俄罗斯得到了现金和政治生存；中国得到了蓝图。双方都清楚交易的内容。

@lagrangewei
this is a false narrative. China has no reason to order more Russian electronic after they refuse to integrate Chinese weapon to them, without the ability to use Chinese weapon, those part were useless to China. if Russia really believe the deal is broken, why would they continue to sell engine to build those J11? this bias narrative assume the Russia are idiot.

这是一个错误的叙述。中国没有理由在俄罗斯拒绝将中国武器整合到他们的电子设备后继续订购更多俄罗斯电子部件。如果无法使用中国武器，这些部件对中国来说毫无用处。如果俄罗斯真的认为交易破裂了，为什么还要继续出售发动机来制造那些J11呢？这种偏见的叙述假设俄罗斯人是傻瓜。

@ravigukathasan4867
Best compliment for anyone is when someone you respect and value copy you. So Chinese engineers were complimenting the Russian brilliance in designing aeroplan

对任何人的最佳赞美就是被你尊重和重视的人模仿你。所以中国工程师是在赞美俄罗斯在飞机设计方面的才华。

@cloudbuilder74
The key point is that China established its technology standard and talent team through absorbing SU27's technologies. India can not reach China's achievements. Meanwhile, Chengdu Aircraft Company Limited produced the indigenous J10.

关键是中国通过吸收苏-27的技术建立了自己的技术标准和人才团队。印度无法达到中国的成就。同时，成都飞机工业公司生产了国产的J10。

@spankythemonkey9828
Since 1998 the export Su-27SK has been produced as the Shenyang J-11 in China under licence. The first licensed-production plane, assembled in Shenyang from Russian supplied kits, was flight tested on 16 December 1998. These licence-built versions, which numbered 100, were designated J-11A. The next model, the J-11B made extensive use of Chinese developed systems within the Su-27SK airfrx.

自1998年以来，出口版苏-27SK在中国以沈阳J-11的名义进行许可生产。第一架由俄罗斯提供组件在沈阳组装的许可生产飞机于1998年12月16日进行了飞行测试。这些许可建造的版本总共有100架，被指定为J-11A。下一个型号J-11B在苏-27SK机身内广泛使用了中国开发的系统。

@rustymiller194
As a American I have to admit that the SU 27 and its later version are good looking aircraft.

作为一名美国人，我不得不承认苏-27及其后续版本是外形优美的飞机。

@lostinspain66
That's an old well known issue. However, I won't underestimate the Russians. They always find a way around.

这是一个众所周知的老问题。然而，我不会低估俄罗斯人。他们总能找到解决办法。

@SIEUTU-c8x
It is very difficult for us outsiders to adjudicate on this issue because details of the contract between China and Russia have never been made public.

对我们这些外部人士来说，很难对这个问题做出判断，因为中俄之间的合同细节从未公开。

@scienceguo
Only Two crash of J11 and that were not caused by airplane but by engine. December 7, 2017: A J-11B from the 111th Aviation Brigade (Western Theater Command) crashed during a high-intensity training exercise.
Early 2007-2009 Groundings: During the initial rollout of the J-11B (the variant with Chinese WS-10 engines), an entire regiment's worth of aircraft was reportedly grounded for an extended period.

仅有两起J-11的坠毁事件，这些事故并不是由飞机本身造成的，而是由于发动机问题。2017年12月7日：一架来自第111航空旅（西部战区指挥部）的J-11B在一次高强度训练演习中坠毁。 2007-2009年早期停飞：在J-11B（配备中国WS-10发动机的变种）首次投入使用期间，据报道整个一个团的飞机被停飞了很长一段时间。

@AMOUREDD
When the Russia took their SU-27 to the Chinese airshow it was there we saw that the aircraft are still of the same size from nose to tail.

当俄罗斯将他们的苏-27带到中国航展时，我们看到这些飞机从机头到机尾的尺寸依然相同。

@Rock-hi5lo
The story might have missed a few details. When the Su27 contract reached half way, Su27 was already way inferior compared to other modern fighters. The Chinese did not want another 100 Su27s with old designs. China asked Russians for technology upgrades, including engine, radar, avionics, controls, etc. But Russians refused to modify anything. Both sides had their valid reasons, I think. After years of struggling, J11 eventually became a better aircraft than the original Su27SK. But still, it was a contract violation even though China had a good reason. I think China should compensate Russia for their losses (later China kept purchasing many AL31 engines from Russia, could it be part of the deal?)

这个故事可能遗漏了一些细节。当苏-27合同进行到一半时，苏-27已经远远比其他现代战斗机逊色。中国不想要另一批100架老旧设计的苏-27。中国要求俄罗斯进行技术升级，包括发动机、雷达、 avionics（航空电子设备）、控制系统等，但俄罗斯拒绝修改任何东西。我认为双方都有合理的理由。经过多年的努力，J-11最终成为比原版苏-27SK更好的飞机。但这仍然是违反合同的行为，尽管中国有充分的理由。我认为中国应该补偿俄罗斯的损失（后来中国继续从俄罗斯购买许多AL31发动机，这是否可以算作交易的一部分？）

@TC-3ntrep
The early batch of J-11 aircraft is a really bad Chinese modification that was early years for China fast forward today there J-16 is the pinnacle of the flanker family.

早期批次的J-11飞机是中国早期不成熟的改装，现在快进到今天，J-16已经成为“侧卫”系列的巅峰之作。

@shumingtan6885
On the way to industrialization, nations take this short cut to catch up, especially with importance of defense industry, generational gap means live or death. China wasted almost twenty years in development.

在工业化的道路上，各国采取这样的捷径以追赶，尤其是在国防工业的重要性上，代际差距意味着生死存亡。中国在发展上浪费了近二十年。

@mikejezo
We don't believe nothing anymore. Why? Because every time the west is the one writing the history. The truth is altered or modified. So thank you. Let the Russian, the Chinese, the African, the Indian tell their own stories in their own way. Not superiority agenda in mind. Thank you.

我们不再相信任何事情。为什么？因为每次都是西方在书写历史。真相被篡改或修改。所以谢谢你。让俄罗斯人、中国人、非洲人、印度人用自己的方式讲述自己的故事，而不是带着优越感的议程。谢谢。

@randall1959
If you're smart and you're selling something that can be used by a potential adversary you should always design an off switch into the software so you can turn it off at will

如果你聪明，而且你正在销售某种可能被潜在对手使用的东西，你应该始终在软件中设计一个关闭开关，这样你就可以随意关闭它。

@firstlast-pt5pp
The contract allows upgrades/fixes which were available but requests were rejected without a satisfactory agreement - therefore the contract is nulled without 3rd party judgement

合同允许升级/修复，虽然这些请求是可行的，但却在没有达成满意协议的情况下被拒绝——因此合同在没有第三方判断的情况下无效。

@scottlarson8422
What did Russia expect China was going to do? The Chinese have become experts in industrial espionage , figuring why spend the time and money to develop something, when you can just steal it!

俄罗斯期望中国会怎么做？中国人已经成为工业间D方面的专家，想想看，为何要花时间和金钱去开发某样东西，当你可以直接Tou取它时！

@Paladin1873
When I worked USAF foreign sales, the general consensus was the Russians delivered their customers hardware at a good price, but then screwed them to the wall with very subpar training and support packages. Meanwhile, the Chinese were busy making cheaper clones of all the technology they had stolen, meaning they remain perpetually a generation behind the West. I hope it stays this way.

当我在美国空军从事外销工作时，一般共识是俄罗斯以合理的价格向客户提供硬件，但随后却以非常低劣的培训和支持方案让他们陷入麻烦。与此同时，中国人忙于制造他们所Qie取的所有技术的廉价克隆，这意味着他们始终落后于西方一代。我希望这种情况能保持下去。

@whitescar2
When Russian engineers came to verify Finnish nuclear power plants built to Soviet specifications, the Finns had built them with micrometers and the Russian oversight team checked everything was fine with wooden rulers.

当俄罗斯工程师来验证根据苏联规格建造的芬兰核电站时，芬兰人用微米尺建造，而俄罗斯的监督团队则用木尺检查一切是否正常。

@jameszhou162
It was a transaction beneficial to both sides. Unlike India, the Chinese were crazy folks determined for weapon system independence

这是一笔对双方都有利的交易。与印度不同，中国人是疯狂的人，决心实现武器系统独立。

@igorvasin6960
It's always amazing how Western bloggers revel in nonsense about the problems of Soviet aircraft development! No Western blogger hasn't described the problems of American designs so vividly! Despite the fact that several times more American aircraft have crashed during testing! The vaunted F-35 is the leader in losses, yet everyone remains silent!

西方博主们总是喜欢在关于苏联航空器开发问题上大肆渲染！没有哪个西方博主会如此生动地描述美国设计的问题！尽管在测试中，美国飞机坠毁的次数是几倍于苏联飞机的！被誉为“F-35”的飞机损失最多，但大家却对此沉默不语！

@chadkarr7394
China took a lot of things, and made them better. It saved them boat-loads on R&D at a time, when China was less economically-developed. They grew by leaps and bounds, in merely 30 yrs. Today, it's absolutely nothing like it was in 1990s. They now create their own tech & wpns, and have gone from copycats to innovators (leading now in technology patents, literally with more patents than the USA, Japan, and Germany combined). I found that out recently, and it really surprised me. I knew they were beginning to lead in various types of technologies, but I didnt know it was at that sort of level. I'm ABSOLUTELY NO FAN of their regime, but I respect what they've achieved in such a relatively short time.

中国吸收了很多技术，并使其变得更好。这在中国经济相对不发达的时候为他们节省了大量研发费用。在短短30年内，他们飞速成长。今天的中国与1990年代完全不同。他们现在创造自己的技术和武器，从模仿者变成了创新者（在技术专利方面领先，专利数量甚至超过美国、日本和德国的总和）。我最近发现这一点，真的很震惊。我知道他们在各种技术上开始领先，但没想到已经达到这样的水平。我绝对不是他们政权的支持者，但我尊重他们在相对较短的时间内取得的成就。

@AZAGATHOTH
China is a country built by engineers. Reverse enginnering is widely recognized as an important methodology and learning tool in engineering education. It is used in almost all key-industries like automotive, software, aerospace, industrial equipemtns, consumer products. A country lead by Lawyers will never be able to apprehend that.

中国是一个由工程师建立的国家。逆向工程被广泛认可为一种重要的方法论和学习工具，尤其是在工程教育中。它几乎在所有关键行业中使用，如汽车、软件、航空航天、工业设备和消费产品。一个由律师主导的国家永远无法理解这一点。
@理高

The initial sale was signed in 1991 with Soviet unx. The Su 27 sale was almost sabotaged by Yeltin’s government. Thanks to Yeltsin who personally pushed aside his proUS oligarchs and started to execute the Soviet era contract.

最初的销售合同是在1991年与苏联签署的。苏-27的销售几乎被叶利钦政府破坏。多亏了叶利钦，他亲自推翻了支持美国的寡头们，开始执行苏联时期的合同。

@felixsu375
What tech espionage. It was licensed by the Russians. You can't steal something you bought. The Russians just didn't like the fact that China was moving ahead of Russia using Russia's tech. The Chinese put money into R&D while Russia's money ended up in people's pockets.

什么技术间谍？这是俄罗斯授权的。你不能偷窃你已经购买的东西。俄罗斯人只是不喜欢中国利用俄罗斯的技术超越俄罗斯这一事实。中国在研发上投入了资金，而俄罗斯的钱则落入了人们的口袋。

@foxfire5235
J11 already stop production in 2015, China didn't sold a single J11 to the international market. They already proof to Russia that they urgently needed it for their own defend at that time when USSR sudden collapse and China are alone to face rising pressure from the west. As for the dependent to Russia defend technology, I think there won't be any large country similar to China will allow that to happen.

J-11在2015年已停止生产，中国没有向国际市场出售过一架J-11。当时苏联突然崩溃，中国迫切需要它来保卫自己，以面对来自西方日益增长的压力。至于对俄罗斯防御技术的依赖，我认为不会有类似中国的大国允许这种情况发生。

@zachbase1124
While they were putting out the SU-27, USA was in the first steps of making the F-22 raptor. Lol... we are literally 30 - 70 years ahead of everyone else in the world. Our allies even get nerfed F-35s. No one can touch the USA.

当他们推出苏-27时，美国正在进行F-22猛禽的初步开发。哈哈……我们在世界上确实领先其他国家30到70年。我们的盟友甚至得到的是削弱版的F-35。没有人能触及美国。

@shroom9033
Honestly, the russians are more intertwined with European's tham Asians. They would rather be allies with nato than Asians but we have pushed them away

老实说，俄罗斯与欧洲的关系比与亚洲的关系更为紧密。他们宁愿与北约结盟，也不愿与亚洲国家合作，但我们却将他们推开了。

@barriocubalindo
The logical and diplomatic thing to do for Mother Russia would have been to fly the Chinese copy with a Russian escort all the way back to Moscow to fully analyse it. It might have given Russia more knowledge about China's mindsets in relation to air force thinking.

对母亲俄罗斯来说，合乎逻辑和外交的做法是让中国的复制品在俄罗斯护航下飞回莫斯科进行全面分析。这可能会让俄罗斯更多地了解中国在空军思维方面的心态。

@ronaldb1656
Seems the Chinese would have been better off pressing Russia for enough planes and spare parts for an independent force while developing their own aircraft from scratch without reverse engineering. The Chinese engineers had to develop independent manufacturing and design techniques anyway. Seems to me copying technology and developing technology require two different skill sets. The Chinese wasted a lot of time and money developing reverse engineering techniques when they could have been growing their independent development techniques.

看来，中国人应该向俄罗斯施压，争取足够的飞机和备件以建立独立的空军，同时从零开始开发自己的飞机，而不是进行逆向工程。中国工程师无论如何都需要开发独立的制造和设计技术。在我看来，复制技术和开发技术需要两种不同的技能。中国在开发逆向工程技术上浪费了大量时间和金钱，而本可以专注于提升独立开发的技术。

@Naginc
Its funny listening to a white man blame China for "stealing tech thats was better than what they accuse them of stealing" make it make sense. How about give them full credit and btw they're 50 times for formidable than Russia and thats a fact.

听到一个白人指责中国“偷取比他们指责的更好的技术”真是有趣，让这说得通。要不给他们充分的认可，顺便说一下，他们比俄罗斯强大50倍，这是一种事实。

@MarcusAurelius-j9m
China will always try to steal anything not nailed down. They have no respect for intellectual property. However, today, Russia is a client state of China.

C总是试图窃取任何没有钉牢的东西。他们对知识产权毫无尊重。然而，今天，俄罗斯已经成为C的附属国。

@troybockhop1351
China engaging in industrial espionage? HMMm. Who would have thought.

中国参与工业间谍活动？嗯，谁会想到呢。

@polduseri909
Coping an old and ineffective soviet platform is better than nothing, at least fulfilled C’s propaganda to terrified their own people if one day they decide to be free and to go against the *** party, they know that their own government can bomb them with this type of plane, made in C to destroy C pro freedom people

复制一个老旧且无效的苏联平台总比什么都没有好，至少满足了C的宣传，恐吓自己的人民，如果有一天他们决定追求自由，反对***，他们知道自己的政府可以用这种飞机轰炸他们，制造出来自C的武器来打压支持自由的人。(***政党或名字 上下同)

@Bob-r6q4r
When one conman conned the other conman. I would'nt trust both Russia and China a moment with even one of my dollars. I do hope the U.S. and other Western nations remind themselves of this case when they are dealing with countries like Pakistan and Turkey, they may be even worse than China.

当一个骗子欺骗另一个骗子时。我连一美元都不会信任俄罗斯和中国。我希望美国和其他西方国家在与像巴基斯坦和土耳其这样的国家打交道时能记住这个案例，它们可能比中国更糟糕。

@kgraf777
From an American stand point i look at the russians as of similar intelligence and manufacturing abilities but maybe slighly behind though not far, China thought was light years behind without the Russian imput . im sure they regett their trust of China but thats hind sight
Weirdly Chinas lack of quality and advanced knowledge would be its undoing the planes produced since have all been duds

从美国的角度来看，我认为俄罗斯在智力和制造能力上与中国相似，但可能稍微落后一些，而中国在没有俄罗斯的帮助下则远远落后。我相信他们现在后悔对中国的信任，但这是一种事后诸葛亮。奇怪的是，中国缺乏的质量和先进知识将是它的致命伤，生产的飞机都成了废物。

@TurboChicken_1
Funny how the more you squeeze your population into compliance, the more incompetent they become, to the point that you have to rip off other's designs.

有趣的是，越是强迫你的人民顺从，他们就变得越无能，以至于你不得不剽窃别人的设计。

@ForTheFLOL
The U.S. will always stay ahead of Russia and China for three reasons: natural allies, wealthy partners, and co-developed advanced weapons. U.S. systems aren’t built alone, they’re jointly developed with NATO, the EU, Japan, Australia, and South Korea. Shared costs and shared security interests make cutting-edge weapons economically viable. Russia and China don’t have that ecosystem. Let’s be honest: an oil-rich dictator doesn’t need fifth-gen stealth fighters to kill civilians.

美国将始终在俄罗斯和中国之上，原因有三：天然盟友、富裕伙伴和共同开发的先进武器。美国的系统不是单独建造的，而是与北约、欧盟、日本、澳大利亚和韩国共同开发的。共同的成本和安全利益使得尖端武器在经济上可行。俄罗斯和中国没有这样的生态系统。坦诚地说，一个富有石油的独裁者并不需要第五代隐形战斗机来杀戮平民。

@canvasartful
During the 12-day conflict with Iran, Israel demonstrated that Chinese-made systems are no match for Western and specifically Israeli technological superiority. The destruction Israel inflicted on Chinese technology was so severe that it’s unlikely they will recover in the near future

在与伊朗的12天冲突中，以色列展示了中国制造的系统无法与西方，特别是以色列的技术优势相匹敌。以色列对中国技术造成的破坏如此严重，以至于在不久的将来不太可能恢复。

@markkozell4817
China needs clean water and airable land as there water and land is polluted look for China to invade Russia with of course the blessings of the EU as they would sell there mother to retain power in the EU

C需要清洁的水和可耕作的土地，因为他们的水和土地都被污染。可以预见，C会在欧盟的祝福下入侵俄罗斯，因为欧盟为了维持权力会出卖自己的母亲。

@CrackejakGinger-r6l
China is not supposed to have any sukhoi. Dey bout MiG after ussr collapse & sukhoi is part state owned.

中国本不应该拥有任何苏霍伊飞机。他们是在苏联解体后购买米格，而苏霍伊是部分国有的。

@lig
The Chinese provided a life saving cash injection to the Russian defense industry for the valuable Soviet engineering knowledge. Without the qualified Chinese engineers,no one can copy or improve the SU27.

中国为俄罗斯防务工业提供了救命的现金注入，以换取有价值的苏联工程知识。没有合格的中国工程师，就没有人能够复制或改进苏-27。

@enochprophet2794
The United States would have been intelligent to have prevented this deal from going through at all. Either buy the aircraft intended for China from Russia or just pay them a sum to prevent any of the Su-27 from ever reaching China. This single deal advanced Chinese aerospace engineering by at least 2 decades.

美国本应该聪明地阻止这笔交易的进行。要么从俄罗斯购买原本打算卖给中国的飞机，要么支付一笔费用以防止任何苏-27飞机进入中国。这笔交易使中国的航空航天工程至少提前了20年。

@albertchu7926
Willing sellers and willing buyers so nothing to complain. Russia needs the money and China needs the knowledge and technology so it’s a clear cut transaction. Secondly it’s China rights to modify, upgrade and add any higher technology they needed so this got nothing on any illegal action on respect intellectual property as claimed. Until today China have moved way ahead in their technology in their jets fighters and have even manufactured their 6 generation that most countries yet to have.

愿意出售和愿意购买，所以没有什么好抱怨的。俄罗斯需要钱，中国需要知识和技术，这是一笔明确的交易。其次，中国有权对其进行修改、升级和添加所需的任何更先进的技术，因此这与任何关于侵犯知识产权的非法行为无关。直到今天，中国在战斗机技术上已经走在前面，甚至制造出了第六代战斗机，而大多数国家尚未拥有。

@Lucysdad66
There is not a foreign plane that can compete with the F15 and that's not even the united states best plane. The F15 has a perfect score 104 to 0 that is 104 kills to zero losses...

没有任何外国飞机能与F-15竞争，而这还不是美国最好的飞机。F-15的战绩是完美的104比0，也就是104次击杀而零次失利……

@XMG-z6p
Did the Chinese agree to allow the Russians to fly one of their J11B to Russia at all? The blogger insinuated so without any evidence and reason! Based on what has transipred since the early 2000s, the Chinese has apparently perfected their own replacement engines that have far surpassed the original Russian engines largely due to the advances the Chinese made in materials science, electronics, and engine technology! This video needs a serious upxe!

中国是否同意让俄罗斯飞一架他们的J-11B到俄罗斯？这位博主暗示了这一点，但没有任何证据和理由！根据自2000年代初以来的发展情况，中国显然已经完善了自己的替代发动机，这些发动机在材料科学、电子技术和发动机技术方面大幅超过了原来的俄罗斯发动机！这个视频需要认真更新！

@pradeepchopra7919
What about USA copying German technology wholesale and capturing and coopting German engineers after WW2 . NASA'S space programme built by Oberth and his team and blue prints from Peenumunde. This does not mean that USA does not have competence but to make fun of Russians is not palatable. Russians are very good and original designers.

美国在二战后大规模复制德国技术并捕获和挖走德国工程师，这又如何呢？NASA的太空计划是由奥伯特及其团队以及佩努姆德的蓝图建成的。这并不意味着美国没有能力，但嘲笑俄罗斯人是不合适的。俄罗斯人在设计方面非常出色和独创。

@patrickanderson4602
China has always been sneaky little thieves. Why can’t they design and build their own fighter jets and not send thieves? Not just jets but everything.

中国一直是狡猾的小Tou。为什么他们不能自己设计和制造战斗机，而要发掘小Tou？不仅是战斗机，所有东西都是如此。

@rustusandroid
Chinese stole fom Russia too... I don't know why I never assumed that since I am used to them copying everything Americans made in China. Makes sense.

中国也从俄罗斯那里偷东西……我不知道为什么我从未想到这一点，因为我习惯了他们复制所有在中国制造的美国产品。这很有道理。

@brettgiles9000
America should have helped Russia more during their collapse!! If we had done more to help I feel like they’d be an ally now instead of another Cold War atmosphere. I know we helped but not nearly enough I think due to our decades of hatred and distrust of Russia.

美国在俄罗斯崩溃期间应该给予更多的帮助！如果我们做得更多，我觉得他们现在会是盟友，而不是另一种冷战氛围。我知道我们提供了帮助，但我认为远远不够，这源于我们对俄罗斯数十年的仇恨和不信任。