韩国KF-21价格公布。网友：KF-21吸引的是那些买不起真正5代机的人，但它。。反而更贵。出口还需要美法英德瑞典同意

@HotelFoxtrot87
Alright, I'll start saving up.

好吧，那我得开始攒钱了。


@DungeonDefense
We’re going to need everyone to contribute $341 each to buy a block 1. I’ll start the gofundme

我们得每人凑341美元才够买一架Block 1。我先去开个GoFundMe。(网络集资)


@rakgitarmen
Ouch. Cool looking bird but I doubt it'll find a lot of buyers. It's stuck in a weird place between gen 4.5 and 5.

唉。外形挺酷的一架飞机，但我怀疑它找不到多少买家。定位很尴尬，卡在4.5代和5代之间。



@OP
That's right. The price may fall further as production volume increases, but developed countries that can afford the F-35 will have no reason to buy the KF-21.
So I think the KF-21's selling points can be found on the Mig-31.
In 8 to 12 years, very exotic air-launched missiles, such as hypersonic anti-ship missiles, will appear in Korea. The US does not sell these weapons to foreign countries. And the KF-21 has also been confirmed for production in an electronic warfare version, similar to the EA-18G Growler. This is something the US sells only to WASP countries.
So, rather than simply obsessing over the aircraft's own performance, I think we should focus on capabilities that the United States and Europe do not offer.

没错。随着产量提升，价格可能还会继续下降，但那些买得起F-35的发达国家，其实没什么理由去买KF-21。
所以我觉得，KF-21的卖点应该去别的地方找，比如类似米格-31那种定位。
再过8到12年，韩国很可能会推出一些非常“变态”的空射武器，比如高超音速反舰导弹。这类武器美国是不会卖给外国的。而且KF-21也已经确认会生产电子战版本，类似EA-18G“咆哮者”，这种东西美国基本只卖给所谓的WASP国家。(注： White Anglo-Saxon Protestant  昂萨白人新教徒国家)  
所以，与其死盯着飞机本身的性能，我认为更应该把重点放在那些美国和欧洲不愿意提供的能力上。


@sheytanelkebir
There are countries like Iraq who are not cleared to buy f35 that have been thinking of an upgrade for their rather underwhelming f16s. 
They already operate the fa50 variant called t50iq as well as surion helicopters and most recently the km-sam2... They are interested in the Kf21

有些国家比如伊拉克，拿不到购买 F‑35 的许可，一直在考虑给自己性能有点一般的 F‑16 做升级。
他们已经在使用 FA‑50 的一个型号 T‑50IQ，还有“苏里昂”直升机，最近也刚引进了 KM‑SAM2 防空系统……现在他们对 KF‑21 也表现出了兴趣。


@raven00x
So, rather than simply obsessing over the aircraft's own performance, I think we should focus on capabilities that the United States and Europe do not offer.
To put the jerk aside for a second I think this is the important thing here. Not everyone gets to buy the f-35, this is an alternative for everyone else who isn't on the favored trading partners list. With the way things are going now the list of countries that can't buy an f-35 even if they want to and can afford it is probably going to grow, making a niche for the kf-21 to exist in.
I want to see some concepts of what the next Korean gen 4.5.5 fighter will look like. If it looks more like a yf-23(beloved<3) I may have to take out a loan.

所以，与其一味纠结这飞机本身性能有多强，我觉得更该关注的是那些美国和欧洲不卖给你的能力。
先把情绪放一边说句实在的，这才是关键点。不是所有国家都有资格买 F-35，KF-21 对那些不在“优先贸易伙伴名单”里的国家来说，就是一个现实的替代方案。照现在这形势发展，哪怕你有钱、也想买，但**买不了 F-35**的国家只会越来越多，这就正好给 KF-21 留出了生存空间和市场定位。
我挺想看看下一代韩国 4.5/5 代战机的概念设计会是什么样。如果外形更像 YF-23（心头好 <3），那我可能真要考虑贷款支持一波了。


@H_cranky
Lets pool in $5 each

咱们每人凑 5 美元吧


@Tompster_
With 59.2k people on this sub, we’d need to contribute $1,569 each for the block 1, or $2,117.20 each for the block 2.

这个版块有5.92万人，如果大家一起凑钱的话，买Block 1的话每人要出1569美元，买Block 2的话每人要出2117.20美元。


@H_cranky
Alright ill pay $5, you pay $1564

好吧，我出5美元，你出1564美元


@dmh2693
Can I get the plane on Saturdays between 2-3pm if I pitch in $10?

如果我出10刀的话，周六下午2点到3点能让我用这架飞机吗？


@Eminymin
It’s like f18 and f35 had a baby

就像 F/A-18 和 F-35 生了个孩子一样。


@noxondor_gorgonax
From that angle my first thought was it looks like an F-15 :)

从这个角度看，我第一反应是它看起来像一架 F-15 :)


@madmoz2018
same

同感


@BarbatosJaegar
I imagine that's the actual pitch of the engineers

我想这大概就是工程师们真正的推销说辞吧。


@Cippledtimmy
Let me think about it

让我想想吧


@notmyrealname8823
We'll do $82 mil or $111 mil.
That's the bottom line though. Don't miss this deal.

8200万美元或者 1.11 亿美元。
这就是最终价了，别错过这笔好交易。


@testercheong
Where can I pre order it ?

我在哪里可以预订？


@usesidedoor
Just contact KAI on Kakao Talk.

直接在 KakaoTalk 上联系 KAI 就行。


@Fluffy-Oil-9968
How does the price compare to other fighter jets?

这个价格和其他战斗机比起来怎么样？


@__Gripen__
It can’t be compared. The “flyaway cost” is usually not particularly meaningful.
For export, the actual acquisition cost must also comprise the whole support package (maintenance, logistics, training, weapons…). For the nation itself, the flyaway cost is often unrelated to actual developmental and industrial costs already sustained before the start of series production.

没法直接拿来比。“裸机价”本身通常就没太大参考意义。
对外出口的话，真实的采购成本还得把整套支持算进去，比如维护、后勤、培训、武器等等。对本国来说，裸机价也往往和前期已经投入的大量研发和工业成本没什么直接关系。


@jimi_nemesis
It's kind of the lower end of F-35 money. For brand new it's not terrible.

价格大概算是F-35里偏便宜的一档。作为全新的来说，也不算太糟。


@WORSTbestclone
The vaguely comparable F-35A is down to $82.5mil for lots 15-17, so slightly cheaper than KF-21 Block-1, with the fancier B and C closer to the Block 2 prices (but also offering carrier capabilities).

大致可比的 F-35A，在第15-17批的单价已经降到8250万美元，比 KF-21 Block-1 还稍微便宜一点；而更高端的 B 和 C 型价格接近 Block-2，不过它们还提供了航母作战能力。


@CyberSoldat21
But for that price you can have a fully stealth aircraft and not this. I wonder what the block 3 prices will be

但这个价钱都能买到一款完全隐身的战机而不是这个。我也挺好奇 Block 3 型号的价格会是多少。


@WORSTbestclone
Honestly the more interesting comparison is not F-35 (if you’re in the market for a 5th gen you aren’t going for external stores only) and more how it compares to the more expensive 4th gen options (F-15EX, Typhoon etc) either as a main aircraft or as a complement to a 5th gen

说实话，更有意思的对比不是F-35（如果你打算买五代机，就不可能只用外挂），而是看看它和那些更贵的四代机选项（比如F-15EX、台风）之间的差距——不管是作为主力机型，还是作为五代机的补充。


@CyberSoldat21
The KF-21 appeals to those who can’t afford a full on stealth fighter but want a lot of the capabilities you get from said aircraft. I wouldn’t put it in the same category as the Eagle II or Typhoon. It’s sort of in a weird outlier category especially since block 3 will have an internal weapons bay.
Outside of high threat missions most stealth aircraft would carry external weapons. The F-35 needs to carry sidewinders externally if you want them to work correctly but they also carry a lot of their bomb loads externally of the mission isn’t a high threat risk for them.

KF-21 对那些买不起真正的隐身战斗机、但又想要接近其性能的人来说还是挺有吸引力的。我不会把它和 F-15EX（Eagle II）或台风放在同一档，它更像是个有点尴尬但独特的存在，尤其是等到 Block 3 上线后还会有内置弹舱。
另外，在非高威胁任务中，大多数隐身战机其实都会外挂武器。比如 F-35，如果想让响尾蛇导弹正常使用，就必须外挂；而且只要任务威胁不高，它们也经常把炸弹外挂来带。


@homer-price
Can an F35 carry a bomb load externally for a mission, drop said bomb as well as the hard points the bombs mount to in order to clean up its stealthiness?

F‑35 能不能在任务中外挂炸弹出动，把炸弹投下后，再把挂载炸弹的挂架也一起抛掉，从而恢复隐身性能？


@CyberSoldat21
Unless you can drop the pylons with it then perhaps, I know the F-22s external fuel tanks can be released with their pylons iirc to keep the stealth shape clean but I’m not 100% on that.

除非挂架也能一起扔掉，那或许还行。我记得 F-22 的外部油箱是可以连同挂架一起抛弃的，用来保持隐身外形干净，不过我也不是百分百确定。


@SnackyMcGeeeeeeeee
The KF-21 appeals to those who can’t afford a full on stealth fighter
But... it costs more

KF-21 吸引的是那些买不起真正隐身战机的人。
但是……它反而更贵 


@SraminiElMejorBeaver
Slightly higher or equal compared to rafale/gripen, lower than typhoon, for having a real stealth jet f-35 is cheaper and better, but weapons integrated are eh (mostly koreans one), maintenance won't be that amazing for a while for sure same as production rate and there isn't much of an advantage of buying it if the country wants to work alongside other, nor it's clear if there will be lot of upgrades to it.

价格和阵风/鹰狮差不多或略高，但低于台风。要是真正想要隐身战机，F‑35 更便宜也更好，不过它的武器整合一般（主要是韩国自家的）。KF‑21 的维护在短期内肯定不会太理想，产量也是。同样，如果一个国家想和其他国家协同作战，买它优势也不大，而且未来会不会有大量升级也不太清楚。


@Maker0fManyThings
F35 looksmaxxed HARD

F-35 的颜值直接拉满。


@Obsever117
I like this angle. Looks like a F-22 and a F-15 had a baby, love it!

我很喜欢这个角度，看起来像是 F-22 和 F-15 生了个娃，我喜欢！





@DestoryDerEchte
Kleine Jägerin Me 109
Were so back

小猎手 Me 109
我们又回来了


@Prestigious_Screen44
almost as much as a su-57 or j35a, still cheaper than a eurofighter variant or rafale f4.
su-75 is the direct competitor but on average 2 years away from accepting orders, su-75 is meant to be easily managed and modified for weapon system integration and air frx modifications while the kf-21 seems more locked down with mods and foreign weapons more difficult integrate.
if the fa-50 is anything to go by than this might be a absolute beast in sheep’s clothing, specially with mdba natively integrating their weapons from day 1.
it seems like by 2040s it’ll become a korean f-35 or j35 equivalent making the initial cost proposition questionable for future operators, I wonder if they’ll maintain multiple versions of different blocks to cover a wider market segment like a block 4 and block 1 existing simultaneously.
another consideration is that it’s partially owned by Lockheed Martin and uses a lot of euro cooperation weapons, needs us congress approval and countries like france germany uk and sweden to accept the sell.

价格几乎和苏‑57或J‑35A差不多了，但还是比台风战机或“阵风”F4型便宜。
真正的直接竞争对手其实是苏‑75，不过那款飞机平均还要两年左右才会正式接受订单。苏‑75主打“好维护、好改装”，在武器系统整合和机体修改方面更灵活；相比之下，KF‑21看起来限制更多，对改装和整合外国武器没那么友好。
如果FA‑50能作为参考的话，这东西很可能是披着羊皮的猛兽，尤其是MBDA从一开始就原生整合自家武器系统。
感觉到了2040年代，它可能会变成“韩国版F‑35”或J‑35级别的战机，这就让现在的价格定位对未来用户来说有点尴尬了。不知道他们会不会同时维持多个不同批次/版本，比如Block 1和Block 4并行，以覆盖更广的市场。
另外还有个问题是，它部分产权在洛马手里，又大量使用欧洲合作的武器系统，出口还需要美国国会批准，同时还得法国、德国、英国、瑞典这些国家点头同意。


@Mr_strelac
let's see the su75 in the air first.

先看看苏-75能不能先飞起来再说吧。


@CyberSoldat21
The Su-75 isn’t much of a competitor to anything since it hasn’t flown yet. Not sure how much of an export hit the KF-21 will be compared to say the FA-50 in terms of Korean export sales but time will tell.

苏-75 现在还没首飞，说实话算不上谁的竞争对手。至于 KF-21 出口表现能不能像 FA-50 那样成功，还不太好说，只能交给时间来检验了。


@Prestigious_Screen44
it has flown a couple months ago, it’s going fairly well in it’s certification phase, kf-21, kaan, su-57 and su-75 are more or less in the same timeline with no more than a couple years of discrepancy from actual production line dates.
the su-57 has abysmal development time for production in large scale for early 2030 full steam, same for kaan in mass production, kf-21 is very public but also won’t start sales until a couple years and su-75 is mostly of the certification phase as well with the modular weapon systems for easy integration being the major road block cause everything else is from the already developed su-57 avionics that makes the su-75 be on the same scale as the others.
2030s will be full of new competitors outside of the typical usa and China.

它几个月前才完成首飞，现在认证阶段进展还算顺利。KF‑21、KAAN、苏‑57和苏‑75基本都处在差不多的时间线上，离真正上产线的时间最多也就差一两年。
苏‑57在量产上的研发周期非常拉胯，就算顺利，全面放量也得等到2030年代初；KAAN的大规模量产情况也差不多。KF‑21虽然透明度很高，但真正开始对外销售也还要再等几年。至于苏‑75，目前同样还卡在认证阶段，最大的问题是模块化武器系统的整合，其他部分基本都沿用了已经成熟的苏‑57航电，所以整体进度跟其它几款其实在同一档次。
到了2030年代，除了美中之外，会有一大堆新的竞争者冒出来。


@NotAnF1Driver
They literally said at the Dubai air show that its first flight should be early 2026. Have you got a source to support your claim it’s already flown?

他们在迪拜航展上可是明确说过，首飞时间预计是 2026 年初。你有什么来源能证明它已经飞过了吗？


@Prestigious_Screen44
look up russian documents and news, it’s russian after all, it has been known for a while now since UAC and Rosbo has commented on it and shown advertisement for it with propaganda.
not something you’ll find in western media on the front page.
Chinese sources are pretty good too but both cases require translation and knowing you way around.

查一下俄罗斯的文件和新闻吧，毕竟这事跟俄罗斯有关。早就不是新鲜事了，UAC 和 Rosbo 都出来评论过，还拿它做过宣传广告，当成宣传素材。
这种东西你在西方媒体的头版基本是找不到的。
中文资料其实也挺不错的，但不管是哪种，都需要翻译，而且还得懂门道。


@NotAnF1Driver
‘Look it up’ righto champ.

“你自己去查吧"，好的好的 兄弟。


@CyberSoldat21
His source is “trust me bro”

他的消息来源就是“信我啊兄弟”。


@Prestigious_Screen44
I’m not your butler, you got as much access to information as anyone else, no one is stopping you from using it.

我又不是你的管家，获取信息大家权限都一样，也没人拦着你不用。


@NotAnF1Driver
Don’t claim something then not back it up. If it’s so widely available, I’m sure you’ll have a source you can easily produce. Or are you talking out your ass?

别随便下结论却拿不出证据来。要是真像你说的那样随处可查，那你肯定能轻松拿出个来源吧？还是说你只是在胡扯？


@Prestigious_Screen44
I’m not going out of my way just to give you a lix you can find yourself, you don’t want to put effort into researching that’s fine.
wait and time will tell you, eventually a headline will catch you. Either way not my problem.-6

我可不会特意跑去给你找链接，你自己就能查到。你不想花精力去研究，那也无所谓。
慢慢等着吧，时间会告诉你一切，迟早会有个新闻标题砸到你眼前。反正不关我事。


@kittennoodle34
Makes an outrageous claim that even the offical Russian statements contradict.
Gets angry when asked where he saw what he based his statement and refuses lix it.
Puts more effort into arguing with people through a lengthy thread about why he has nothing to prove than it would have been to just lix the source.

做出一个连俄罗斯官方说法都打脸的离谱断言。
被问到依据出处时就急了，既说不清在哪看到的，也坚决不肯给链接。
花大把精力在长串对线里辩解“我没必要证明”，花的劲都够直接贴个来源了。
典型的Reddit时刻。


@NotAnF1Driver
Oh I’ve had a look, nothing but the Rostec CEO saying they’re aiming for a early 2026 first flight.
I don’t think you have a source, I think you’re making it up.

哦，我已经查过了，除了俄罗斯技术集团（Rostec）CEO说他们的目标是2026年初首飞之外，什么都没有。
我觉得你根本没有消息源，是你自己编的吧。


@CyberSoldat21
lix is proof that the Su-75 has flown. That’s all you need to do. Pulling this “look it up” card is what people who make up complete lies use to pretend to be right.

给个链接来证明苏‑75已经试飞过，就这么简单。动不动就来一句“自己去查”，一般都是那些胡编乱造、装成自己是对的人才会用的套路。


@Muctepukc
Sorry, man, nowhere in the Russian news or documents does it say the Su-75 has already flown.
The ground-testing prototype is ready or nearly ready, that's true, but the flight prototype should be ready around spring.
The Su-57D is scheduled to fly before the Su-75 though, this was confirmed in an interview.

抱歉啊兄弟，无论是俄罗斯新闻还是官方文件里，都没说过苏-75已经首飞。
目前只是地面测试用的原型机已经准备好，或者快准备好了，这点没错，但真正的飞行原型机预计要到春天左右才会就绪。
而且苏-57D会比苏-75先首飞，这一点已经在一次采访中确认过了。


@CyberSoldat21
The Su-75 has never flown and even their reported 2026 first flight timeline might not even be realistic. The Su-75 will unlikely have a success on the export market when compared to the F-35 and if China continues to market the J-35 to Pakistan, Egypt and possibly the UAE.

苏-75到现在还一次都没飞过，就算他们说的2026年首飞时间表，也不一定现实。和F-35相比，苏-75在出口市场上基本没什么胜算；而且如果中国继续把J-35推销给巴基斯坦、埃及，甚至可能还有阿联酋，那对苏-75就更不利了。


@OP
HMM.. I'm guessing you're Indian or Turkish, Right? No? Anyway..
In fact, there are two countries that Korea needs to obtain approval to export the KF-21
the US (Engine) and the UK (Ejection seat)

嗯……我猜你是印度人或者土耳其人，对吧？不是？那好吧……
其实，韩国要出口 KF-21，需要得到两个国家的批准：
一个是美国（发动机），  
另一个是英国（弹射座椅）。


@Prestigious_Screen44
you need weapons.. no point in having a fancy fighter with no teeth to fight.
for weapons unless you want a no advanced weapons than you need the approval of the mbda members and other exclusive weapons like the anti sam missiles from the brits or the Swedish anti ship missiles and so on.

你得有武器才行……一架花里胡哨却没“牙齿”的战斗机，拿什么去打？
说到武器，除非你打算不用先进武器，否则就得拿到MBDA成员国的批准（注：欧洲跨国导弹制造，包括英法意德）；还有一些独家武器，比如英国的反防空导弹、瑞典的反舰导弹之类的，也都是受限制的。


@OP
What I want to say to Third World nationalists is that spending your free time baselessly slandering other countries will not lead to the development of your country.

我想对第三世界的民族主义者说，把空闲时间花在无端抹黑其他国家上，并不会让你们的国家发展起来。


@Consistent_Course413
But isnt this the case for the most fighters? Many jets use foreign weapon systems. The Koreans usually try to get their projects in an operational state with the use of already existing systems/components. But i am certain that they have an localization plan for most of these . They already plan to produce their own engine until 2040 and started an air to air missile program. They did the same thing with their tanks, the K1 was made with the help of general dynamics, the K2 was than developed by Hyundai Rotem, with an german engine and transmission. Just recently they started to produce it with an korean transmission and engine.

但这不也是大多数战斗机的情况吗？很多战机都会使用国外的武器系统。韩国人一般都会先用现成的系统和部件，把项目尽快推进到可用状态。不过我很确定，他们对其中大多数都有本土化的计划。他们已经计划在2040年前实现发动机国产化，也已经启动了空对空导弹项目。
他们在坦克上也是这么干的。K1是在通用动力的帮助下研制的，之后K2由现代罗特姆开发，最初用的是德国的发动机和变速箱。就在最近，他们才开始改用韩国自己的发动机和变速箱进行生产。


@Muctepukc
almost as much as a su-57 or j35a
Su-57's unit cost is around $35 million, and I don't think that China ever officially published J-35's price.

差不多和苏-57或者J-35A一样贵。
苏-57的单价大概在3500万美元左右，而且我也不觉得中国官方有公布过J-35的具体价格。


@--KillSwitch--
super raptor

超级猛禽


@PsychologicalGlass47
F-16CM-42+ Supremacy
That's pretty damn great.

F-16CM-42+ 无敌  
这也太牛了吧。


@Rinthegreat
Fuck that just get an F35A instead

去他的，直接买个 F-35A 不就好了。  


@Consistent_Course413
Does it has an EOTS? Or does it need an targeting pod

它有内置的EOTS（光电瞄准系统）吗？还是需要外挂目标指示吊舱？


@Ashamed_Can304
No EOTS only IRST

没有EOTS，只有IRST。（光电瞄准和红外搜索）


@OP
KF-21 Block-1,2 has EO-TGP pod.
https://www.hanwhasystems.com/kr/business/defense/isr/electronic01-tgp.do

KF-21 的 Block-1 和 Block-2 都配备了光电瞄准吊舱（EO‑TGP）。
https://www.hanwhasystems.com/kr/business/defense/isr/electronic01-tgp.do


@Environmental-Rub933
Block 1 and 2 are selling at the same time?

Block 1 和 Block 2 是同时在卖吗？


@Leading_Author
Gmarket just sent me a $200-$20 coupon and customer service confirmed I can use it on KF-21, but only Block-1

Gmarket 刚给我发了张 200 减 20 的优惠券，客服确认可以用在 KF-21 上，不过只限 Block-1。


@Shuttle_Tydirium1319
Block 1 is about the same price as a G700. Totally affordable. Let’s get going people!

Block 1 的价格跟一架 G700 差不多，完全负担得起。大家赶紧搞起来吧！


@RunninReb14
Can I redeem my Pepsi points for one?

我能用百事积分换一架吗？