向中国人提问：一般而言，中国年轻一代是否意识到他们的先辈为发展国家所付出的努力？

battery1127
Yes. The younger generations are traveling aboard too. So they see what other countries are like. So they absolutely see how Europe and America is not miles ahead, also how poor some of the real third world countries are.

是的。年轻一代也在出国旅行。所以他们能够亲眼看到其他国家是什么样子。他们绝对能看出欧洲和美国并非遥遥领先，也能看到一些真正第三世界国家的贫穷状况。

Igennem
Yes, as even in their shorter lifespans they've seen the country progress by leaps and bounds. Just over a decade ago, HSR was still developing and air pollution was a major concern.

是的，因为即使在他们的短暂人生中，也已目睹了国家的跨越式发展。就在十多年前，高速铁路还在建设中，空气污染还是一个重大担忧。

ParticularDiamond712
This chart underestimates China's strength in 1980. GDP in Africa primarily exists in the form of mining, whereas in China, it exists in the form of heavy industry. GDP of the same value carries different meanings.

这张图表低估了 1980 年中国的实力。非洲的 GDP 主要存在于采矿的形式，而在中国，它以重工业的形式存在。同等价值的 GDP 有着不同的意义。

Secondly, replace this chart with one of Europe, and let’s look at it again in ten years.

其次，用一张欧洲的图表来替换这张，让我们十年后再来看看。

[dexed] 
Yeah that one might take a while.

这个议题或许需要更长时间来讨论。

Positive-Road3903
lets not forget that the Chinese were doing a lot of railroading & other infrastructure projects in Africa too, usually the world history glosses over it...

别忘了中国也在非洲进行了大量铁路及其他基础设施建设，而这些往往在世界历史叙述中被一笔带过……

In the US, right after the California gold rush, the Chinese were fundamental to railroading and thus helped build the backbone of what made the US..many perished due to slave-like conditions.

在美国，加州的淘金热之后，中国劳工对铁路建设起到了关键作用，他们实际上帮助构建了美国的骨干力量……许多人因类似奴隶制的恶劣工作条件而丧生。

its not that the younger gens Chinese dont know, its that foreign nations especially e.g USA tries to bury/rewrite history to fit their narrative

不是中国年轻人不了解，而是外国尤其是美国试图抹杀或重写历史以适应他们的叙事。

OpenSatisfaction387
I mean, yeah, a lot of them indeed take if for granted that China is an execption.

我的意思是，是的，确实有很多人理所当然地认为中国是个例外。

ToasterRepairer 
Jesus Christ, war China that poor just 45 years ago?!

天哪，中国在 45 年前竟然那么穷？！

stanreeee 
Absolutely, and this is why it’s so funny when people still say China is a country full of people in poverty. When they travel overseas (and many do) and see all the homelessness, low standards of living and shoddy infrastructure, it’s very clear to them that they’re in a good place.

没错，所以当人们仍然说中国是一个充满贫困人口的国家时，这就显得非常可笑。当他们出国旅行时（而且很多人都这样做），看到那么多的无家可归者、低生活标准和破旧的基础设施，他们就会清楚地意识到自己生活在一个很好的地方。

MegaMB
China is still behind developing countries in Europe like Serbia on average and medians. Who are definitely considered behind the developped world.

中国在平均水平和中位数上仍落后于如塞尔维亚等欧洲发展中国家，而这些国家明显被视作落后于发达国家行列。

But that's probably not going to last long at the current pace.

但以当前的速度来看，这种状况可能不会持续太久。

stanreeee
If you normalise the populations, I think you’ll find China already surpassed them. Gap is still a big issue (but this is also the case everywhere I suppose), it'll close and likely to levels unachievable in other places purely due to social policy.

若按人口基数标准化来衡量，我认为中国其实已经超过了它们。差距仍然是个大问题（不过我想这一点在各地都是如此），但这种差距将会缩小，并且很可能达到其他地方无法企及的程度——这纯粹是因为社会政策的推动。

MegaMB
Not yet. Would love to, and it's soon going to happen, but when normalising data, China is not in front.

还不到时候。我希望能尽快实现，但在数据规范化方面，中国尚未走在前列。

Which is relatively normal btw. We're talking about countries that had a few more generations of people with wide access to upper education. Boomers in China and in the balkans did not have the same opportunities. On the opposite, young Chinese have overall have more opportunities and education than the youngs in the poorer eastern european countries. But it's relatively recent.

顺便说一下，这是相对正常的。我们讨论的是那些有几代人都能广泛接受高等教育的国家。中国的"婴儿潮"一代和巴尔干地区的人们并没有同样的机会。相反，与较贫困的东欧国家的年轻人相比，中国年轻人总体上拥有更多的机会和更好的教育。但这只是最近的情况。

HanWsh 
Still behind Western, Central and Northern Europe. But ahead of most Eastern Europe countries, and a few Southern Europe countries.

依然落后于西欧、中欧和北欧国家。但超过大多数东欧国家和少数南欧国家。

LOL at PRC being behind Serbia.

看到中华人民共和国排在塞尔维亚后面，真是令人忍俊不禁。

MegaMB  
On average and on median terms, yeah. On things like education too: the yugoslav system did provide en mass upper education to boomers. China reached this stage later, which is perfectly normal.

从平均和中位数来看，是的。在教育方面也是如此：南斯拉夫的体制确实为婴儿潮一代提供了大量高等教育。中国在这一方面起步较晚，这完全正常。

I mean, take the motorization rate for example: China is at 251 cars/1000 inhabitants. Serbia is at 377. It's only been very recently since China oitpaced Serbia's lif expectancy too, and the difference is of 3 months.

以汽车普及率为例：中国为每千人 251 辆汽车，而塞尔维亚为每千人 377 辆。中国也是在最近才超越了塞尔维亚的预期寿命，且仅领先三个月。

Is it gonna last though? Certainly not.

但这种状况会持续吗？当然不会。

HanWsh  
图


MegaMB
What's the goal of sending this?

发这个的目的是什么？

HanWsh 
If we look at ACTUAL consumption volumes (not dollar amount), PRC per-capita consumption is actually slightly higher than other countries that are at the same per-capita income level. In some criteria, they actually do MUCH better in certain consumption metrics.

如果我们考察实际消费量（而非以美元计），中国人均消费实际上略高于同等人均收入水平的其他国家。在某些指标上，他们在特定消费指标上的表现实际上要好得多。

https://www.pekingnology.com/p/Chinas-consumption-is-not-nearly
The researchers used actual consumption numbers - like calorie intake and protein intake - in place of dollar amount spent on food.

研究人员使用了实际消费数据——比如卡路里摄入量和蛋白质摄入量——以替代食品的美元花费。

Example:   

例如：

Food consumption forms the most fundamental aspect of all consumption categories, encompassing grains, vegetables, fruits, meats, eggs, and dairy products. Given the significant differences in dietary and food supply structures among various economies, our analysis of food consumption primarily focuses on the ultimate outcome of food intake, specifically the absorption of energy and nutrients.

食品消费是所有消费类别中最基本的一个，涵盖了谷物、蔬菜、水果、肉类、禽蛋及乳制品。鉴于不同经济体的饮食和食品供应结构存在显著差异，我们对食品消费的分析主要聚焦于食品摄入的最终结果，特别是能量和营养的吸收情况。

We use per capita calorie supply1 as a core indicator to measure the energy acquisition and consumption of a country's residents. As shown in Figure 3, China's per capita calorie supply exhibits a clear upward trend, rising steadily from approximately 1,400 kcal/day in 1961 to 3,453 kcal/day in 2022. Compared to Mexico, which is at a similar stage of development, China's per capita calorie supply surpassed Mexico in 2013. In comparison with developed countries, China exceeded Japan in 2002, and the gap continues to widen, partly due to differences in dietary structures between China and Japan. In 2022, France and Germany had per capita calorie supplies of 3,505 kcal/day and 3,573 kcal/day, respectively, with China having nearly caught up with France and Germany. Meanwhile, the gap between China and the United States has progressively narrowed, with China's per capita calorie supply reaching 90% of that of the United States by 2022.

我们将人均热量供给量作为衡量一个国家居民能量获取和消费的核心指标。如图 3 所示，中国的人均热量供给呈现出明显的上升趋势，从 1961 年的约 1400 千卡/天稳步增长至 2022 年的 3453 千卡/天。与处于相似发展阶段的墨西哥相比，中国在 2013 年实现了对墨西哥的人均热量供给反超。与发达国家相比，中国在 2002 年超越了日本，并且差距持续扩大，这在一定程度上反映了中日饮食结构的差异。2022 年，法国和德国的人均热量供给分别为 3505 千卡/天和 3573 千卡/天，中国已几乎赶上法国和德国。与此同时，中国与美国之间的差距也在逐步缩小，至 2022 年，中国的人均热量供给已达到美国的 90%。

In terms of nutrient supply, we sexted protein supply as a representative measure. The per capita protein supply for Chinese residents also shows a significant upward trend. As illustrated in Figure 4, it increased from 40 grams per day in 1961 to 128.5 grams per day in 2022, representing approximately a threefold growth. It is important to note that after 2010, the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) upxed its statistical methods and population data, leading to a certain degree of leap in data for many economies between 2009 and 2010, with China showing the largest increase. From a horizontal perspective, China’ s per capita protein supply surpassed that of Mexico, a country with a similar development level, in 2009, exceeded Japan in 2008, Germany in 2012, and France in 2015. By 2021, China’ s per capita protein intake reached 125.9 grams per day, surpassing the level of the United States. Currently, China’ s protein supply has fully reached and exceeded the average level of developed countries.

在营养供给方面，我们选择蛋白质供给作为代表性指标。中国居民人均蛋白质供给同样呈现显著上升趋势，如图 4 所示，从 1961 年的每日 40 克提升至 2022 年的每日 128.5 克，增幅约达三倍。需注意的是，2010 年后联合国粮农组织（FAO）调整了统计方法与人口数据，致使多国 2009 年至 2010 年间数据出现一定程度的跃升，其中中国增长幅度最大。横向对比来看，中国人均蛋白质供给量于 2009 年超越发展水平相近的墨西哥，2008 年超过日本，2012 年超过德国，2015 年超过法国。至 2021 年，中国人均每日蛋白质摄入量已达 125.9 克，超过美国水平。目前中国的蛋白质供给已全面达到并超越发达国家平均水平。

In terms of consumption volume, Chinese residents not only surpass countries at similar development stages in food consumption but also reach and exceed the levels of some developed countries. For instance, when calculated based on per capita consumption expenditure adjusted for exchange rates, China's consumption level is less than half of Mexico's and one-third of Japan's. However, it is evident that our actual food consumption volume is not lower than these countries, whether considering calorie supply or protein supply, China exceeds Japan and Mexico. Therefore, it can be said that in terms of food consumption, China's consumption volume is not low and has reached or exceeded the consumption levels of developed countries, with no significant gap.

从消费量来看，中国居民不仅在食品消费上超过同等发展阶段国家，而且已经达到甚至超越一些发达国家的水平。例如，按汇率折算的人均消费支出来计算，中国的消费水平还不到墨西哥的一半，相当于日本的三分之一。但显然，从热量供应或蛋白质供应来看，我们的实际食品消费量并不低于这些国家，中国都超过了日本和墨西哥。所以可以说，在食品消费方面，中国的消费量并不低，已经达到或超过了发达国家的消费水平，并无显著差距。

First, there is a systematic underestimation of consumption levels in China. The absolute per capita consumption is significantly higher than the level reflected by per capita consumption expenditure adjusted for exchange rates, as well as higher than the per capita consumption level adjusted for purchasing power parity, and even exceeds the consumption level corresponding to China’s current stage of economic development. This systematic underestimation is evident across multiple consumption categories—from food consumption to durable goods, and from basic living needs to discretionary spending—demonstrating that Chinese residents’ actual consumption capacity significantly exceeds the levels shown by traditional international comparison methods.

首先，存在对中国消费水平的系统性低估。人均实际消费量明显高于经汇率调整的人均消费支出所反映的水平，也高于经购买力平价调整的人均消费水平，甚至超过了与中国目前经济发展阶段相对应的消费水平。这种系统性低估在多个消费类别中都很明显——从食品消费到耐用消费品，从基本生活需求到可自由支配的开支——表明中国居民的实际消费能力明显超过了传统国际比较方法所显示的水平。

Second, the reason China’ s consumption level is underestimated lies in prices and exchange rates. From the price perspective, per capita consumption equals consumption volume multiplied by consumption price. Since China's actual consumption volume is not low, this implies a systematic characteristic of relatively low prices for goods and services in China. As the "world's factory" and a populous nation, China leverages a complete industrial chain, economies of scale, and relatively low factor costs to provide goods and services at prices far below the international market level. From the exchange rate perspective, China's higher actual consumption volume reflects the strong real purchasing power of the renminbi; however, this purchasing power advantage is not fully manifested in the exchange rate level. According to the purchasing power parity theory, exchange rates should reflect the relative price levels of goods between two countries, but the current renminbi exchange rate may be undervalued compared to its real purchasing power.

其次，中国消费水平被低估的原因在于价格和汇率。从价格角度来看，人均消费等于消费量乘以消费价格。由于中国实际消费量并不低，这说明中国商品和服务价格具有相对较低的系统性特征。作为“世界工厂”和人口大国，中国凭借完整的产业链、规模经济效益以及相对较低的生产要素成本，能够以远低于国际市场的价格为消费者提供商品和服务。从汇率角度看，中国较高的实际消费量体现了人民币强大的实际购买力；然而，这一购买力优势并未完全在汇率水平上得到体现。根据购买力平价理论，汇率应反映两国商品之间的相对价格水平，但当前人民币汇率相较于其真实购买力可能存在低估。

MegaMB
I mean, no judgements, but we're talking about thr balkans here, not Mexico and latin America.

我的意思是，不做评判，但这里我们讨论的是巴尔干地区，不是墨西哥和拉丁美洲。

In case you don't know, the US suck at regional economic integration. Yes, these are countries in development, like the balkans. But the similarities stop there, and amongst countries in development, Mexico is way less developped than it's european counterparts.

如果你不了解情况，美国在区域经济一体化方面做得不好。没错，这些是发展中地区，就像巴尔干国家一样，但相似之处仅止于此。在发展中国家中，墨西哥的发展水平远低于其欧洲对手。

And yes, China is obviously above Mexico, I don't think that was even remotely a question.

确实，中国明显比墨西哥发达得多，我认为这根本不是问题。

HanWsh 
PRC has better education, better industries, better life expectancy, more housing than Balkans. Be serious. PRC competition is developed EU. Its the apex among developing countries.

在教育水平、产业能力、平均寿命和住房拥有率上，中国都超过了巴尔干国家。请正视现实。中国的竞争对手是发达的欧盟，在发展中国家中的确处于领先地位。

Serbia motorisation rate is cute. It also has higher motorisation rate than France. So what?

塞尔维亚的汽车拥有率看起来不错，甚至高于法国。但这又能说明什么呢？

MegaMB
Once again, when talking about per capita, the situation is not the same. Good widespread education in the balkans dates from the 60's: boomers have benefitted from it in the balkans. If you're young, better be in China indeed.

再次提及人均状况时，情形就有所不同了。巴尔干地区良好的普及教育始于上世纪 60 年代：那里的婴儿潮一代因此受益。若你正值年轻，确实还是在中国发展更有优势。

Also, housing is easier in the balkans. Admittedly, with a quarter of the population gone since 2000, things are a bit easier.

此外，巴尔干地区的住房问题也相对容易解决。诚然，自 2000 年以来该地区人口减少了四分之一，情况确实有所缓解。

France's motorization rates are at 579 cars per 1000 inhabitants. All the numbers I used there are from the UN.

法国每千名居民拥有的汽车数量为 579 辆。我所引用的所有数据均来自联合国。

Serbia's GDP per capita ppp is at the level of Guagdong at the moment. It's roughly comparable to the districts of Qingyuan and Shaoguan put together.

塞尔维亚的人均购买力平价目前与广东省相当，大致可与清远和韶关两地的总和相媲美。

Nuoc-Cham-Sauce
Have you been to China recently? I've never been to Serbia but China makes the US look like a shit hole in comparison. China is on par with or surpassing the western European countries I've been to as well.

你最近去过中国吗？虽然我从未到访塞尔维亚，但相比之下，中国让美国相形见绌。与我曾游历的西欧国家相比，中国亦毫不逊色甚至更胜一筹。

MegaMB
The US generally looks like a shithole. It's on design, and it makes no sense to use that as an estimate of their economic situation. Their urban planning is to be blamed.

美国给人的整体印象确实不尽人意。这源于其城市规划的缺陷，但若以此评判其经济状况则失之偏颇。问题的症结在于他们的城市设计理念。

I have no doubts Shenzhen is on par or surpassing western european countries. But here, Serbia is to be compared with a tier 3 or 4 city in an average province, not the wealthiest ones. Compare bumfuck nowhere Europe with bumfuck nowhere China x).

我毫不怀疑深圳可与西欧国家相媲美甚至更胜一筹。但在这里，塞尔维亚应该被拿来与普通省份的三四线城市做比较，而不是最富裕的那些。对比一下欧洲偏远角落与中国偏远角落吧。

Also, rurality in Europe is much wealthier in general than in China as a rule of thumb.

另外，作为一般经验法则，欧洲乡村地区普遍比中国更富裕。

Nuoc-Cham-Sauce 
I do agree that bumfuck nowhere Western Europe is probably more developed than bumfuck nowhere China.

我同意这一点，西欧的偏远地区很可能比中国的偏远地区发展得更好。

When it comes to the US, yeah, the cities suck, but the bottom 50% of society in China is significantly wealthier than the bottom 50% in the US (PPP adjusted). The per capita GDP of the US is much higher than China but I think the general level of development is higher in China than the US. The rich are just unfathomably richer in the US.

至于美国，是的，城市可能一般，但中国社会底层 50%的人均财富（按购买力平价调整后）明显高于美国底层 50%。虽然美国的人均 GDP 远高于中国，但我认为中国整体的发展水平比美国高。只是美国富人的财富程度令人难以想象。

Anyway, my point is that China today in most aspects of their level of development generally compares favorably, if not surpasses, much of the West.

无论如何，我的观点是，当今中国在大多数方面的发展水平，即使没有超越，也普遍优于西方许多地方。

MegaMB
The bottom 50% is not significantly wealthier in China than in the US. I would love it, but, de facto, it's not the case. To this day, the bottom 50% in China does not own a car, has less healthcare access (not the case for the bottom 10% though), less access to education, etc...

在中国，底层 50%的人口并不比美国的同龄人明显更富裕。我虽希望如此，但事实上并非如此。时至今日，中国的底层 50%仍没有私家车，医疗资源获取有限（不过最底层的 10%情况稍好），教育机会也较少。

That said, I have no doubts that this will change at the pace it is going. But it's still going to take time.

话虽如此，我毫不怀疑按照当前的发展速度，这种情况将会改变。但这还需要时间。

Your point is true for Shenzhen, arguably Beijing, Qingdao or Shanghai. But for lesser cities in poorer provinces, it's just not the case. Economically, situation in Yunnan, Hebei, Sichuan or Henan (not even the most remote provinces) are still... Complicated to this day. Improving, for sure. But very much in the "developing" situation.

你的观点对深圳，以及可能对北京、青岛或上海而言是对的。但对于贫困省份的中小城市来说，情况并非如此。即便到今天，云南、河北、四川或河南（这些并非最偏远的省份）的经济状况仍然……相当复杂。虽然确实在改善，但仍处于非常明显的“发展中”阶段。

marcodapolo7 
Without sacrifice there will be no victorious

没有牺牲就没有胜利

Fangsong_Long
Of course we are aware of the fast development of the country and our forbears’ effort.

我们当然意识到国家发展的迅速以及我们前辈的努力。

However, there is a price on that: our forebears have done almost everything to develop the economy and there is few chance left for us. Thus many problems also arise faster, like social stratification.

然而，我们为此付出了代价：我们的祖先为发展经济几乎竭尽所能，留给我们的机会已所剩无几。因此，诸如社会分层等许多问题也随之加速涌现。

That’s the reason why we are trying hard to make new economic incrementing points, which is actually hard and takes time. While in the meantime Africa has an easier path to follow, namely just copy what the other countries did.

这也正是为何我们正努力创造新的经济增长点——这实际上十分困难且需要时间。而非洲却有着更轻松的道路可循，即只需复制他国的发展模式。

ThePeddlerofHistory
Africa needs politically viable options to embark on the path of economic development. They could try and learn and adapt from other countries like SEA, 4D, or China, but that kind of experience is of limited value. Not when, for example, Burkina Faso needs to help Mexican cartels traffic drugs to Syria and Iraq to keep their finances afloat.

非洲需要政治可行的选择才能走上经济发展之路。他们或许可以尝试学习并借鉴东南亚、四小龙或中国的经验，但这些经验的价值毕竟有限。比如布基纳法索需要协助墨西哥贩毒集团向叙利亚和伊拉克走私毒品以维持其财政运转时，这些经验就显得无济于事。

whotfami228
Equatorial Guinea: "IM STILL STANDING"

赤道几内亚：“我依然屹立不倒”

kfcheong
China greatly benefited from being let into the World Trade organisation.

加入世界贸易组织让中国受益匪浅。

Dull-Nectarine380
Eritrea is clearly the secret richest country in africa. Isaias must be doing something good

厄立特里亚显然是非洲隐藏的首富国家。伊萨亚斯肯定做了一些好事。

No-Echidna7296
The children of my friends, many of whom are teenagers born after 2010, are no longer accustomed to that impoverished China. When they go out, they want to stay in star-rated hotels, and even those who can endure hardship see it as a so-called spiritual journey.

我身边朋友的孩子，许多是 2010 年后出生的青少年，他们早已不适应那个贫瘠的中国。外出旅行时，他们更倾向于选择星级酒店，即便是那些能够吃苦的孩子，也将艰苦的经历视为一种所谓的“精神之旅”。

That impoverished China exists only in textbooks. Even their parents, Chinese people born in the '80s and '90s, have not experienced extreme poverty firsthand.

那个贫穷的中国只存在于教科书里。连他们的父母，即八九十年代出生的中国人，都没有亲身经历过极端贫困。