葡萄牙的高铁革命已经开始！

@slow.poetry
- A few days ago, the first new train in over 20 years arrived in Portugal. You read that right, not a singe new train in over twenty years.
- This was the first of 200 new trains bought by the state.
- CP says it needs double that just to renew the oldest trains, so best case scenario is 400 new trains over the next 20 years.
 
几天前，葡萄牙迎来了20年来首列新火车。没错，超过二十年没有一列新火车。
这是国家购买的200列新火车中的第一列。
CP（葡萄牙国铁）表示，仅仅为了更新最旧的火车，就需要双倍的数量，所以最好的情况是在接下来的20年里增加400列新火车。
 
@Psi-Storm
With a potential 5 stops on that line, the travel time is probably much closer to 2h than 1,15h. They should alternate between an express train without intermediate stops and trains with more stops hourly. In Germany we also have 200km/h regional trains on the high speed line. They would hold on all stops and you then could swap to the high speed train in Coimbra, so that train only needs 1 intermediate stop on the line.
 
如果那条线路有5个停靠站，旅行时间可能更接近2小时，而不是1小时15分钟。他们应该在每小时安排一次没有中途停靠的快车和有更多停靠的列车。在德国，我们的高铁线上也有200公里/小时的区域列车。这些列车会在所有站点停靠，然后你可以在科英布拉换乘高铁，这样高铁只需要在这条线路上有一个中途停靠。
 
@RodrigoFerreira-bs6hd
they plan on doing exactly that. It would take like 1h40 to stop everywhere. But they estimated that half of the demand would come from such intermiadte stations, so the plan is to have intermediate direct services with ones that stop at stations. The direct would do Lisbon-Porto, the non-direct would stop on some stations and then continue to Braga on the conventional railway.
 
他们计划正是这样做。停靠所有站点大约需要1小时40分钟。但他们估计，半数需求将来自这些中途站，所以计划是设立中途直达服务和停靠站的列车。直达列车将从里斯本开往波尔图，非直达列车将在一些站点停靠，然后继续通过常规铁路到达布拉加。
 
@TijgerTim
Being two decades old can often be seen as an advantage for comfort. Many modern trains are poor riding and most have uncomfortable seating.
 
二十年老的火车常常被视为舒适的优势。许多现代列车的乘坐体验很差，大多数座位都不舒服。
 
@adamtranter234
Interesting video but I feel it would be worth mentioning that the high speed line only goes to Orienté, some 7km outside of Lisboa city centre.
 
这段视频很有趣，但我觉得值得提一下的是，高速铁路只到达Orienté，离里斯本市中心约7公里。
 
@peterpanda1970
It was about time Portugal jump on the high speed train. My biggest dream was a Madrid Lisboa on full blast
 
葡萄牙终于该乘上高铁了。我最大的梦想是实现马德里到里斯本的高速旅程。
 
@Fly0High
This wasteful project will never go past the first phase, of course. The new goal has always been to bring the best infrastructure to Porto and to build vanity bridges and tunnels to local municipalities. Rather then use the money and resources to rebuild local networks and actually connect dwindling localities or solving congestions in metro areas, we're spending tax payers money in EU funds in porto-porto projects.
 
这个浪费的项目当然不会超过第一阶段。新目标始终是为波尔图提供最佳基础设施，以及为地方市政建设虚荣桥梁和隧道。与其花钱和资源重建地方网络，实际上连接日益减少的地方或解决大城市的拥堵问题，我们却在波尔图-波尔图项目中浪费纳税人的钱和欧盟资金。
 
@removilmata5377
Begun to sunk the country faster. Spain is a bigger country and none of he´s lines is profitable.
 
开始让这个国家更快沉没。西班牙是一个更大的国家，但他们的任何线路都没有盈利。
 
@steveporritt1550
I like rail travel but how much extra CO2 is created during construction compared with fast travel via an airplane & at some point short distance aeroplanes will be either powered by batteries or hydrogen, produced from the ample solar power in Iberia. If you then add in the cost of construction, which will inevitably double by completion ,which is also likely to be much longer than stated, it just doesn't make economic sense.
 
我喜欢铁路旅行，但在建设过程中产生了多少额外的二氧化碳，与飞机的快速旅行相比？而且，短途飞机在某个时刻将会使用电池或氢气驱动，而氢气可以从伊比利亚丰富的太阳能中生产。如果再加上施工成本，这些成本在完工时不可避免地会翻倍，完工时间也可能远超预期，这样做在经济上就没有意义。
 
@Maia_Cyclist
Top heavy, besides the Construction is planned for a 100-year period, so emissions are spread over that time. There are also options to use hydrogen in steelmaking, eliminating emissions from smelting.
 
顶部过于负重，此外，建设计划是为期100年，所以排放量将在这段时间内分摊。还有在钢铁制造中使用氢气的选项，可以消除冶炼过程中的排放。
 
@alexisdespland4939
no station at either lisbon airport orporto airport so no connection to the various potuguese islands so it dosen't benefit the whole country.
 
里斯本机场和波尔图机场都没有火车站，因此无法连接到各个葡萄牙岛屿，这对整个国家没有好处。
 
@peterleash3998
The railway network and train company are run by public entities thoroughly colonized by communist unxs. They’re expensive, almost perpetually on strike, and delivering disappointment like clockwork. Truly a tragedy of epic proportions.
 
铁路网络和铁路公司由完全被共产主义工会控制的公共实体管理。它们开销大，几乎永远处于罢工状态，提供的服务如同时钟般令人失望。真的是一场史诗般的悲剧。
 
@rauschma
Quoting the video: “Both countries have also committed to exploring a long-term migration from Iberian gauge to standard gauge aligning with the broader European high-speed rail network.”
I’d be interested in more information on what that could look like. Seems difficult!
 
引用视频中的话：“两个国家还承诺探索从伊比利亚轨距向标准轨距的长期迁移，以与更广泛的欧洲高速铁路网络对接。”我很想了解这可能会是什么样子。看起来很困难！
 
@Petz-d3r
There is a lot work to do. You should build the route to Madrid in the standard gauge from the start.
 
还有很多工作要做。你们应该从一开始就以标准轨距建设通往马德里的线路。
 
@freenando75
we gonna spend billions, destroy nature and communities, for a 45 minuts gain. ridiculous for a small country. this money should be spend in a nations network of trains ( the recente ridiculous project in Coimbra with a metro-bus that doesnt serve the population of the town nearby, is a bad example). and a line lisbon- madrid- then we could stop the airport project ( its fucking polution, too much) and spend the money in our national helath system and start to build municipal houses for all with a rent of 150E. choices
 
我们要花费数十亿，破坏自然和社区，只是为了节省45分钟的时间。对于一个小国家来说，这实在是荒谬。这笔钱应该花在国家的铁路网络上（最近在科英布拉的那个与当地居民无关的地铁巴士项目就是个坏例子），以及建设里斯本-马德里的线路，然后我们可以停止机场项目（真是太污染了，太过分了），把钱花在我们的国家医疗系统上，并开始为所有人建设租金150欧元的市政住房。选择是关键。
 
@balengdeh4812
as a portuguese im gonna be honest (sorry) it's most likely not gonna happen haha, I would almost bet all my money it wont happen until maybe 2125 (?)
 
作为一个葡萄牙人，我要诚实地说（抱歉），这很可能不会发生哈哈，我几乎敢打赌在2125年之前不会实现（？）
 
@hungrysurfer9471
How can Lisbon to Porto 336km take 2.5 hrs with a high speed train doing 200 kph ?
I can do it in 2.5 hrs for €40 of diesel in my car ! Door to door. No extra time lost traveling to the train station buying a ticket.
 
里斯本到波尔图336公里的路程，怎么可能用时2.5小时，而高速列车的速度是200公里每小时？我开车可以在2.5小时内完成，油费只需40欧元！从门到门，没有浪费额外时间去火车站买票。
 
@DiogoF.
Portugal is unable to build a new Lisbon airport, any part of the high speed train, Portugal is in a catatonic state since the XVIII century.
 
葡萄牙连新机场都建不成，更别提高速列车了，葡萄牙自18世纪以来就处于一种昏睡状态。
 
@kevinesteves4457
This project is being worked on since the 80s when portugal joined the EU, which Portuguese goverment from that point to today recived large funds from EU to finance it , but every time it got delayed and postpone. And every new goverment elaborate new plans to then receive new fundings from EU until this year that EU forced Portugal current goverment to advance with it.
 
这个项目自80年代葡萄牙加入欧盟以来就一直在进行，葡萄牙政府从那时起至今获得了大量来自欧盟的资金来为其融资，但每次都被延迟和推迟。每个新政府都会制定新的计划，然后再获得欧盟的新资金，直到今年欧盟强迫葡萄牙现任政府推进这个项目。
 
If you ask what happen to the millions possible billions of funds given in last 45 years, all the money has lost track on ambietal planning, commission of aprovel, third party companies of logistic, ficticional jobs and most of it to corrupt politicians, Whom by the way were and are now leading the EU commissions.
 
如果你问过去45年获得的数百万甚至数十亿的资金发生了什么，这些钱大多消失在环境规划、审批委员会、第三方物流公司、虚假工作中，以及大部分流入腐败的政客口袋。顺便说一下，这些人曾经和现在都是欧盟委员会的领导。
 
@luigifranceschi2350
I hope at least they’ll use preholed sleepers capable of taking a third rail able to be layer on converted in standard gauge.
 
我希望至少他们能使用可以承载第三轨的预制轨枕，这样能方便未来转换为标准轨距。
 
@jd3k
Spain and Portugal economies could be way better by now, if Spain did not ignore Portugal existence
 
如果西班牙没有忽视葡萄牙的存在，西班牙和葡萄牙的经济现在可能会更好。
 
@victordasilva5255
If getting a drivers license takes almost a year, this will never be built….
 
如果获得驾驶执照要花将近一年时间，那么这个项目永远不会建成……
 
@davidscanlon6929
Portugal has amazing roads already, with this network their systems will be world class
 
葡萄牙的道路已经很棒，有了这个网络，他们的系统将会是世界一流的。
 
@jpasan
The project is in turmoil and those dates are no longer realistic. First phase has been shortened. And the first concession was rejected, fortunately, by environmental reasons
 
这个项目处于动荡之中，那些日期不再现实。第一阶段已被缩短。第一份特许权因环境原因被拒绝，幸运的是。
 
@ThePhantomJack
As long as CP (Comboios de Portugal) is a state-operated company, there will be eternal unjustified strikes and delays. In the main line, the fast train - alfa pendular (AP) - needs to stop completely on the line to let the slower sibling - intercidades - pass. The service is plagued with delays, poor service and unnecessary stops. The system would work much better if the current AP service were optimized, as there is no need for a faster line from the main cities (Porto-Lisbon).
 
只要CP（葡萄牙铁路）是一家国营公司，就会有无休止的不合理罢工和延误。在主线上，高速列车——阿尔法快车（AP）需要完全停下，以让较慢的列车——城际列车（intercidades）通过。服务常常延误，服务质量差，存在不必要的停车。如果优化当前的AP服务，系统会运作得更好，因为从主要城市（波尔图-里斯本）之间并不需要一条更快的线路。
 
@husyn1400
How can they afford this and who's going to use these trains with such low salaries in Portugal
 
他们怎么能负担得起这个项目，谁会在葡萄牙这样低工资的情况下使用这些火车？
 
@luuchoo93
Why is Portugal so far behind Spain when it comes to high speed trains, and most other things? When did this gap started to appear?
 
为什么葡萄牙在高速列车及其他许多方面上远远落后于西班牙？这个差距是什么时候开始出现的？
 
@teklife
using Iberian gauge seems extremely short sighted. high speed trains are all built to standard gauge, to have to custom order something different is going to cost more
 
使用伊比利亚轨距似乎极其短视。高速列车都是按照标准轨距建造的，定制不同的轨距只会让成本更高。
 
@fgseg
It's a shame that it will take them 10 years to build the entire line; China could have finished this line in 1 year.
 
真遗憾，他们需要10年才能建成整条线路；中国可能在一年内就能完成这条线路。
 
@freibert
Will it be the new Chinese Modell that has been introduced in some other counties already? They have a lot of investment in Portugal by now, so we better start learning Mandarin ..
 
这会是已经在其他国家引入的新中国型号吗？他们在葡萄牙的投资已经很多，所以我们最好开始学习普通话。
 
@realhawaii5o
And then thanks to this amazing new line any train operating Portugal - Spain and onwards will need gauge changes as Spain has the high speed railways in standard gauge...
 
然后，由于这条惊人的新线路，任何运营葡萄牙-西班牙及其之后的列车都需要进行轨距转换，因为西班牙的高速铁路是标准轨距……
 
@michaelclement1337
The Spanish high speed trains handle both Liberian and Euro/GB gauge so I suppose they can be used between Lisbon and Madrid
 
西班牙的高速列车同时支持伊比利亚轨距和欧洲/英国轨距，所以我想它们可以在里斯本和马德里之间使用。
 
@pedrorequio5515
No only standard Gauge, there are connection points is both, however it is worth noting, they are very fewer, they are deemed in the words of the spanish railway operator as prohibitively expensive to maintain to use in a large scale.
 
不仅仅是标准轨距，还有两者的连接点，但值得注意的是，这样的连接点非常少，西班牙铁路运营商认为维护这些连接点的成本过高，不适合大规模使用。
 
@julianselvaraj6107
This is great. I was looking to travel from Lisbon to Madrid, travel times by bus is just too long.  Make it happen Portugal and Spain.
 
太好了。我一直想从里斯本去马德里，坐公交的时间实在太长了。希望葡萄牙和西班牙能实现这个计划。
 
@denisestolnik
It's a shame that in Porto the current project will destroy a big and important part of the city's history, like the Ceres grinding factory (since 1915), the agricultural heritage of the city still preserved (foutains, wells, etc), wildlife (one of the few places you can still see fireflies!), local associations and remove more than 30 families from their homes. All that just because they don't want to adjust ($$) the project, it's easier just erase the city's life and history with concrete and metal.
 
真遗憾，在波尔图，当前的项目将摧毁城市历史中的一个重要部分，比如Ceres磨坊（自1915年起），以及城市仍然保留的农业遗产（喷泉、井等）、野生动植物（这是少数几个还能看到萤火虫的地方之一）、地方社团，还将使超过30个家庭失去家园。所有这一切都是因为他们不想调整项目（$$），而是选择用混凝土和金属抹去城市的生活和历史。
 
@teklife
great to see portugal investing in its future. these are things that have high up front costs, but long term returns on investment.
 
很高兴看到葡萄牙在投资未来。这些项目前期成本高，但从长期来看会有良好的投资回报。
 
@autarchprinceps
While I can certainly understand why you would go with iberian gauge under the circumstances, I do wonder with Spain converting in particular its high speed rail to standard gauge at a pretty fast rate, whether this won't leave Portugal eventually unable to properly connect.
 
虽然我可以理解在这种情况下为何选择伊比利亚轨距，但我在想，西班牙特别是在以较快的速度将其高速铁路转换为标准轨距的情况下，这是否会导致葡萄牙最终无法正确连接。
 
@RodrigoFerreira-bs6hd
They are not converting their high speed network at a fast pace. They are pretty much stuck, notably in Galicia which is the most important international connection. We shouldn't destroy the entire conventional railway operations in Portugal for decades like Spain did because poor old Madrid wants its connection to be done 10m faster!! The demand is not that high, they can do fine with a gauge changer like they already do inside their own country. National connections come first  (Iberian), then Galicia (also Iberian, no plans to change anything) and only then comes the rest of Spain (currently Iberian between Portugal and Madrid, plans to change in the future).
 
他们并没有以快速的速度转换高速铁路网络。他们的进展相当缓慢，尤其是在加利西亚，这是最重要的国际连接。我们不应该像西班牙那样，为了旧马德里想要更快的连接而毁掉葡萄牙几十年的常规铁路运营！需求并没有那么高，他们在国内已经可以使用轨距转换器来处理。国家连接优先（伊比利亚轨距），然后是加利西亚（同样是伊比利亚轨距，没有改变计划），最后才是西班牙的其他地区（目前葡萄牙与马德里之间是伊比利亚轨距，未来有改变计划）。
 
Every single railway construction and renovation in Portugal for the last few years has required a special kind of concrete sleepers which are cast to have two rail seats for each gauge. So it's very easy to convert gauges when the time may come.
 
过去几年，葡萄牙的每一项铁路建设和翻新都需要一种特殊的混凝土轨枕，这种轨枕设计为每种轨距都有两个轨道座。因此，当需要时进行轨距转换非常容易。
 
There is a lot of discourse inside Spain of the kind of Madrid-centric fuck-everyone-else kind of railway planning and the gauge change that disrupted the entire connection with the premise of better international services, when 30 years later all they have is a few tgv connections in Barcelona and the entire conventional network in ruins. Not worth it. Portugal shouldn't make the same mistakes, and it shouldn't become yet another end of the Madrid star.
 
在西班牙内部，有很多关于以马德里为中心的铁路规划的讨论，这种规划忽视其他地区，轨距的改变扰乱了整个连接，声称是为了提供更好的国际服务，但30年后，他们所拥有的只是巴塞罗那的几条TGV连接，整个常规网络却变得一片废墟。这不值得。葡萄牙不应该重蹈覆辙，也不应该成为马德里星形网络的又一个末端。
 
Yes, they plan on changing the Extremadura line to international gauge. But they already have a conventional line next to it. Their entire freight network runs in Iberian gauge. And as long as Portugal only plans on building one railway between Lisbon and Badajoz (Spain border), then it should be  built in Iberian gauge. Because, once again, the demand for national connections and international freight connections is significantly higher than a passenger service between both cities, it can justify a gauge changer in the border.
 
是的，他们计划将埃斯特雷马杜拉线改为国际轨距。但他们旁边已经有一条常规线路。他们的整个货运网络都运行在伊比利亚轨距上。而且只要葡萄牙计划在里斯本和巴达霍斯（西班牙边界）之间修建一条铁路，那么就应该采用伊比利亚轨距。因为，再次强调，国家连接和国际货运连接的需求显著高于两座城市间的客运服务，这可以为边境设置轨距转换器提供合理性。
 
Obviously, if demand grows and they need to make a second railway, then they absolutely should make it in international gauge. But the lacking national connections need to be built first.
 
显然，如果需求增长，他们需要修建第二条铁路，那么绝对应该采用国际轨距。但是缺乏的国家连接需要优先建设。
 
@freibert
Is it worth so much just to save a couple of minutes? All about prestige and money, YOUR money .. !
 
为了节省几分钟时间，这值得花这么多钱吗？这都是关于面子和金钱，还是你的钱……！
 
@effeo9962
The report clearly explains that the Northern Line is saturated. I do not need to go much faster, no, because I like seeing the subtle changes of the Portuguese countryside as I go from one part of the country to the other. But speed is one way of dealing with oversaturated rail infrastructure.
 
报告清楚地解释了北线的饱和。我不需要更快的速度，因为我喜欢在不同地区之间穿行时看到葡萄牙乡村的细微变化。但速度确实是解决铁路基础设施过载的一种方式。
 
@slakbas
The Alpha pendular was an enormous waste of money. Time saved is only about 15 minutes between Porto and Lisbon because the track is so congested there is hardly any space to run at higher speeds. This was already obvious when they got it, but the government still went ahead with the order… strange
 
AlfaPendular是一个巨大的资金浪费。波尔图和里斯本之间节省的时间只有大约15分钟，因为轨道非常拥挤，几乎没有空间以更高的速度运行。在采购时这一点就已经很明显，但政府还是决定继续下单……真奇怪。
 
@Ghost_PM11
This Atlantic corridor would connect Southern Spain with Galicia directly, it's all benefits.
 
这个大西洋走廊将直接连接南部西班牙与加利西亚，带来所有好处。
 
@santoriniblue8413
Most railway grids, even high-speed operate direct and semidirect trains. The first usually has only  one intermediate stop, while the latter may have up to three intermediate, plus the end. Even though these stops are of only a few minutes, more stations deprieves TGVs of a sustained high speed.
 
大多数铁路网，即使是高速铁路，也会运营直达和半直达列车。前者通常只有一个中途停靠站，而后者可能有多达三个中途停靠站，加上终点站。尽管这些停靠时间仅几分钟，但更多的站点使得TGV无法保持持续的高速。
 
@cx5307
To me, choosing Iberian gauge seems like a weird decision that could haunt them for centuries to come.
 
对我来说，选择伊比利亚轨距似乎是一个奇怪的决定，可能会在未来几个世纪内困扰他们。