第五代战斗机：争夺空中优势 | AMCA | 苏-57 | F-35 | 歼-35

@raviponappa3143
Why are we so obsessed with stealth for air supremacy when air-space denial with better AD and associated sensors may be the answer.
We have also the lighter version of the Kali and could be miniaturised for Air Defence, along Pakistan borders and Himalayan foothills. Preemptive strike with better speeds and warhead by land based Brahmos should be considered, before using airstrke in any form.
 
为什么我们如此痴迷于隐形战斗机的空中优势，难道用更好的空域封锁、先进的防空和相关传感器来代替不是答案吗？
我们也有轻型版的卡利导弹，可以进行迷你化改装用于防空，部署在巴基斯坦边境和喜马拉雅山脉的山脚下。在进行任何形式的空袭之前，应该考虑用速度更快、战斗部更强的陆基布拉莫斯导弹进行先发制人的打击。
 
@kameshs4141
I would say, wait for AMCA. Instead of spending money on stop gaps (f35 / su57), invest that money in more roboust air defence and more super cruise / hypersonic missiles. ~10 years will seem long but will fly away easily. If we belive we really realy want a 5th gen fighter then cancel the planned 120 rafales and go for su57 with full indeginization (radar, avionics, acm,... )
Also one more thing we have to realize there is no true stealth, with high band radar and satellite imaging there would be less room for stealth for opponents. Use our constraints as our advantage.
 
我会说等待AMCA的到来吧。与其把钱花在过渡方案上（F-35/苏-57），不如将这笔钱投入到更强大的防空和更多的超巡航/高超音速导弹上。大约10年看似漫长，但转眼就过去了。如果我们真心想要一款第五代战机，那就取消计划中的120架阵风战机，转而选择苏-57，并进行全面的本土化（包括雷达、航空电子、作战管理等）。
还有一点我们必须意识到，没有真正的隐形技术。随着高频段雷达和卫星成像的进步，隐形对敌人来说将变得越来越不重要。我们应该将我们的局限性转化为我们的优势。
 
@saminshah2750
what about the offensive posture if we invest only in defence? its no brainer
we need offensive capability which only comes from the best 5th gen fighter jets
 
如果我们只投资于防御，那进攻态势怎么办？这不言自明。
我们需要进攻能力，而这只有通过最好的第五代战斗机才能实现。
 
@Incognito-brown
Issue i see is China and US have the most advanced jets. China will 'gift' jets to its newest state, Pak, while either US nor Chin will even sell to India!! India can get a rocket on the moon so advanced jets are definitely much possible - They just need to show urgency, wiilingness to spend, and no corruption in this matter!! Let there be peace.
 
我看到的问题是中国和美国拥有最先进的战机。中国会“赠送”战机给其最新的省份——巴基斯坦，而无论是美国还是中国，它们都不会将战机卖给印度！印度已经能把火箭送上月球，所以说要制造先进的战机是完全可能的——他们只需要展现出紧迫感、愿意花钱并且在这件事上没有腐败即可！愿和平常在。
 
 
@ziakhan200
Pakistan does not necessarily require a fifth-generation fighter, as our 4.5-generation platforms particularly the J-10C and JF-17 thunders are already asserting clear air superiority over the Indian Air Force. Recent events have further exposed the IAF’s lack of confidence in its own capabilities, with Indian jets acting more like glorified taxi services, launching standoff missiles from over 300 km inside their own airspace clearly to avoid direct engagement.
To effectively counter this strategy of long-range "clown strikes," Pakistan is moving to acquire the fifth generation J-35 stealth fighter. This addition will not only close the standoff gap but will ensure that any Indian attempt to engage from a distance is met with overwhelming retaliation.
Currently, the BrahMos missile has an approximate range of 600 km. Within that radius, the Pakistan Air Force will decisively neutralize all key Indian targets, air defense systems, missile storage depots, and launch platforms, ensuring that the IAF is left with no option but to retreat, likely towards the Arabian Sea, in an attempt to preserve what's left of its combat power.
 
巴基斯坦不一定需要第五代战斗机，因为我们的4.5代平台（特别是J-10C和JF-17雷电）已经在空中确立了对印度空军的明显的空中优势。最近的事件进一步暴露了印度空军缺乏对自身能力的信心，印度战机更多像是被美化的出租车服务，他们从离边境超过300公里的自己的领空发射远程导弹明显是为了避免直接交战。
为了有效应对这种远程“滑稽打击”的战略，巴基斯坦正计划采购第五代J-35隐形战斗机。此举不仅会弥补远程打击的差距，还将确保印度的任何试图进行远程交战的行动都将遭遇压倒性的报复。
目前，布拉莫斯导弹的射程大约为600公里。在这个半径内，巴基斯坦空军将决定性地摧毁所有关键的印度目标，包括空防系统、导弹储存库和发射平台，确保印度空军别无选择，只能撤退（可能会撤向阿拉伯海以图保全剩余的战斗力）。
 
@Nikraj789
Both AMCA and J35 are not 5th generation, maybe 4.5 at its best and not stealth.
India is still struggling to make Tejas, which is below the 4th generation, and one crashed right in front of Modi. Indian made helicopters are jokes of the world, and at present, some are grounded in India.
 
AMCA和J-35都不是第五代战斗机，最多算4.5代，而且都不是隐形战机。
印度仍在为打造光辉战机而挣扎，这款战机甚至低于第四代战斗机的水平，一架光辉战机就曾在莫迪面前坠毁。印度自产的直升机简直成了世界的笑柄，目前一些直升机还停飞了。
 
@Op_Gamer.155
Everyone is hating and enjoying and blaming HAL so late for AMCA, they think they know everything. India is creating its own jet, and Pakistan is getting a new jet—it's two different things. Creating your own jet will take time. The F-22 Raptor, America’s first fifth-generation stealth fighter, took about 20 years to build, so why can’t HAL take time to build our AMCA? I know we are slow, but it’s going to be ready in 10 more years, in 2035. And those who are saying Pakistan is getting a 5th gen early—so what are we gonna do? Yeah, it’s a problem, but think about it. In a war, jets are not as important as defense. You see our defense system’s performance in recent conflicts. And the J-35 is not a very good jet—it’s just an okay jet and it’s not even battle-tested. We see the quality of HQ-9 defense systems in Pakistan, so support your country, at least online.
 
每个人都在批评HAL，为AMCA项目的推迟而高兴，他们以为自己什么都知道。印度正在打造自己的战机，而巴基斯坦则在获得新战机——这是两回事。制造自己的战机需要时间。F-22猛禽（美国的首款第五代隐形战斗机）花了大约20年才建成，那么为什么HAL不能花时间去打造我们的AMCA呢？我知道我们进展缓慢，但它将在10年后的2035年准备好。那些说巴基斯坦将提前获得第五代战机的人，我们能怎么办呢？是的，这是一个问题，但想想看，在战争中，战斗机并不像防御那么重要。你看到我们的防御系统在最近的冲突中的表现了吧？而且J-35并不是一款特别好的战机，它只是一个还算可以的战机，它甚至没有经过战斗测试。我们也看到了巴基斯坦HQ-9防空系统的质量，所以至少在线上支持你的国家吧。
 
@Avigeek1903
What you are saying is that you need to take a leaf out of China's and Pakistan's playbook and approach this project using a block build methodology, just as Pakistan has done with the JF-17 block 1, 2, 3 and so on.
 
你所说的是印度应该从中国和巴基斯坦的做法中借鉴经验，采用模块化建造方法推进这个项目，就像巴基斯坦在JF-17战机的1、2、3号模块一样。
 
@BNO-Benefits_NO
Fighters jets and aircraft carriers are systems of systems, which is what China is trying to master and excel at while competing with the USA. Not sure if India can compete when the basic sanitary systems and railways are lacking.
 
战斗机和航空母舰都是典型的"系统之系统"，这恰是中国在与美国竞争时正全力攻克并寻求卓越的领域。但在基础卫生系统和铁路网络尚且欠缺的情况下，印度是否具备竞争力尚存疑问。
 
@Arianne3011
Basically, we are screwed. A major multi-national military confrontation like one not witnessed since WW2 is surely coming, and that too (a) as early as mid-2027 & (b) with the Indo-Pacific as the main theater of war. No wonder even small nations are going out of their way to arm themselves to the teeth, but as usual, successive Indian Governments and their branches have been sleeping, only to be caught napping once again— even when just in the last 25 years, they’ve been caught napping over and over again: in Kargil, during op. "Swift Retort", in Galwan, on the 1st night of Op "Sindoor"..... That is why a bankrupt, beggarly global-pariah failed state with 1/10th the defense budget is able to put up a credible fight, shoot down multiple IAF jets—imagine the situation when the second strongest military power in the world with 4x defense budget comes knocking seriously! And surely it will, much sooner than later.
 
基本上，我们完蛋了。自第二次世界大战以来，我们从未见过的大规模多国军事对抗肯定会到来，而且（a）很可能在2027年中期就发生，（b）以印太地区为主要战场。不奇怪的是即使是小国也都在尽力武装自己，然而一如既往，历届印度政府及其下属部门始终浑噩度日，待到危机来临方如梦初醒——这样的历史正在重演——即使就在过去的25年里，他们在卡吉尔战争、"快速反击"行动、加尔万事件、以及"辛杜尔行动"的第一夜中屡次犯了同样的错误……这就是为什么一个破产的、贫困的、被全球孤立的，仅拥有我们1/10的防务预算的失败国家依然能进行有效的反击，击落多架印度空军战机的原因——试想当这个国防预算四倍于己的世界第二军事强国真正动真格时会是怎样的局面！这一天注定会到来，而且远比人们预想的要早。
 
@malikt1387
Tejas MK1 are not yet delivered, Then Tejas MK2, the AMCA Production. Oh God!!!!! That’s 2050 for the first 2050. Why can’t Indian Govt create a joint partnership in such complex production of Adani-HAL or Reliance-HAL so a big private company can bring in the speed and other operational modernization to raise the speed.
 
光辉战机MK1还没有交付，然后是光辉MK2，再然后是AMCA生产。天啊！这得等到2050年才能看到第一架。为什么印度政府不能在如此复杂的生产过程中创建合资企业（比如阿达尼-HAL或信实-HAL）呢？这样一个大型私人公司能引入速度和其他运营现代化，提升进程速度。
 
@siddharthmahajan1245
This is a silly debate. We should have 40 stealth fighters bought asap. Plus Build AMCA with GE OR Rolls Royce or Japan offer for engines simultaneously. PLUS We need TEJAS MK 2A assp to counter JF17s & J 10C. Lots of work to do in next 2 years
 
这是一场愚蠢的辩论。我们应该尽快采购40架隐形战机，同时并行制造AMCA（采用GE或劳斯莱斯或日本提供的发动机）。我们还需要尽快推出光辉MK2A以应对JF17和J-10C。在接下来的两年里，我们有很多工作要做。
 
@zenden9
If India wants to achieve military parity with Pakistan and China in short time. They shall emulate from Iran by investing in precision strike long range hypersonic missile or high tech ballistic missile. Invest in a strong air defense with powerful SAM and missile interceptor too. They are much easier to achieve , easily dispensable and much easier to build up in large number. Forget about 5th gen stealth or 6th gen. They need deep expertise and large number of infrastructure plus know how.
 
如果印度想在短时间内与巴基斯坦和中国实现军事平衡，他们应该效仿伊朗，投资于能精确打击的远程高超音速导弹或高科技弹道导弹。同时强化强大的防空系统，配备强大的地对空导弹和导弹拦截器。这些更容易实现，易于更换，并且容易大规模建设。忘掉第五代隐形战机或第六代战机吧，它们需要深厚的专业知识和大量的基础设施及技术经验。
 
@HRHKamal
You guys started off so well, stating that since Pak would be receiving the J35A this year end onwards, & AMCA was a decade away & therefore we urgently needed a stop gap purchase, of either the F35 or the SU 57. But then the discussion veered off to 6th gen etc, & the focus Qn remained unanswered F35 or SU57? Pardon me if I say this discussion mirrored the way our MOD/IAF has been dillying dallying, wasting precious years without initiating any real action. Gentlemen, you're the experts - what do you recommend as an immediate purchase? You know jolly well that just praising our AD & "pouring some kerosene" on it is hardly a counter to the J35A!
 
你们一开始说得很好，说巴基斯坦将在年底开始接收J35A，而AMCA又要十年才能完成，因此我们迫切需要购买一款过渡期战机，比如F35或苏-57。但随后讨论转向了第六代战机等问题，重点问题始终没有回答：我们应该购买F35还是苏-57？请原谅我说，这个讨论就像我们的国防部/空军一直在拖延一样，浪费了宝贵的时间，始终没有采取实际行动。先生们，你们是专家——你们建议立即购买什么？你们也清楚仅仅赞扬我们的防空系统并且“鼓舞一下士气”是根本无法应对J35A的！
 
@gayashanperera-w2e
when China got its first 4th gen fighter from russia it was a decade after india got now they are doing 6th gen fighter final testing phase get experience reverse enginered unreliable russian engine tech to ws10 yet unreliable better than russian to ws 15 on par with f119 us engine
 
当中国从俄罗斯获得其第一款第四代战机时，距印度获得这款战机已经过去了十年，现在他们正在进行第六代战机的最终测试阶段，并且在不断从俄罗斯不可靠的发动机技术中获取经验，经过反向工程，得到了WS-10发动机，虽然依然不可靠，但比俄罗斯的发动机要好，而WS-15则与美国的F119发动机不相上下。
 
@realtorlifewithdave
It's funny how all these tiny wealthy nations have zero military spending. India is going through the pain of growth. They are developing across all areas while it's neighbor focuses on war and selling out to China. Chinese business is never free just ask Africa. The second language in some African countries is Chinese, can you believe that? It's essential to protect our borders but don't lose sight of internal development as well . India is growing and other nations don't like it why? Nobody wants their favorite customer to be their equal....play the long game, .
 
这些富裕小国的军费开支近乎为零，着实讽刺。印度正经历成长的阵痛——当邻国沉迷战争与对华妥协时，印度却在全面发展。中国的生意从来不是免费的，问问非洲就知道了。某些非洲国家的第二语言已是中文，难以置信吧？守卫疆土固然重要，但内部发展同样不可偏废。印度正在崛起，为何他国不乐见呢？毕竟没人希望自己的"头号客户"有朝一日与自己平起平坐……要懂得长远布局。
 
@cinefile0075
military experts who knows way way more than jemruu like u , Tom Cooper Walter Ludwig and John Spencer said it's clear cut India's victory or upper hand over the conflict with all the satellite images. Same with many American think tanks like brookings and Stimson and many defence think tanks too, they also agreed on with military experts and historians. So what you say by starting "let's be honest" to sound cool doesn't make any sense ...
 
比你们更懂军事的专家们（比如汤姆·库珀、沃尔特·路德维希和约翰·斯宾塞）都表示凭借所有的卫星图像，他们发现印度在冲突中将获得明确的胜利或占据上风。许多美国智库，如布鲁金斯学会和斯廷森中心，以及许多防务智库也同样同意军事专家和历史学家的看法。所以，你开始时说的“让我们诚实点”（想显得很酷），实际上毫无意义……
 
@user-xj7vc3su6f
invest in AD cause first we need is airspace denial superiority and then offensive capability. lets suppose CH-PAK-BN jointly produce it then we have to have AD that could detect stealth and a solid intelligence of thier asset position if anything goes sideways. best is to invest in drones and tie with pvt companies for jets
 
我们应该投资于防空系统，因为首先我们需要的是空域拒止优势，其次是进攻能力。假设中国、巴基斯坦和孟加拉国共同生产它，那么我们必须拥有能够探测隐形战机的防空系统，并且需要对它们资产位置有可靠的情报。最好的办法是投资无人机，并与私人公司合作生产战机。
 
@NexusGT-d2d
What I’m saying we need to think out of the box on this, so we maximise the utility of what is available.
 
我说的是我们需要跳出框架思考，最大化现有资源的利用价值。
 
@SingASongForMeLove
While the government is busy playing Hindu-Muslim politics..... One neighbor already have 5th generation fighters and other one is going to acquire one .... Meanwhile the BHAKTS are claiming india is the greatest country in the world
 
当政府忙于玩印度教-穆斯林政治时……一个邻国已经拥有第五代战机，另一个邻国也即将获得……与此同时，印度教徒们却在宣称印度是世界上最伟大的国家。
 
@Raj-nh3fc
All this theorising on AMCA (without your own jet engine) is ok, but the next big attack could come from the sea. Don't ignore the sea.
 
关于AMCA（没有自主发动机）的所有理论推演都无妨，但下一场重大攻击很可能来自海上，切勿忽视海洋威胁。
 
@vickybhadwani2689
IAF needs to be professional air force rather than a student or analytical air force perpetually studying weapons platforms...I want to see IAF >>> USAF by 2047
 
印度空军需要成为一支专业的空军，而不是一支永远在分析和研究武器平台的学生空军……我希望看到到2047年印度空军>>>美国空军。
 
@malikmalik9737
Sir India doesn't need to do any thing till 2035, Just go and make good relations with Russia, Pakistan and China, The problem will solve, But if India Doesn't follow that path then there is no path india can Survive as an independent country, No Country will help India in their Defense,You have already seen France Now if you want to taste America and other European partners then the Way is there open, Stay in your neighborhood and give a way to prosperity and progress, CHANAKIYA mentally has already doomed India
 
先生，印度不需要在2035年之前做任何事，只需要与俄罗斯、巴基斯坦和中国建立良好的关系，问题就会解决。如果印度不走这条路，那就没有其他路可走，因为印度无法作为一个独立的国家生存。没有国家会在国防上帮助印度，你已经见识过法国的做派了。如果你想尝试美国和其他欧洲合作伙伴的做派，那条路是开放的。固守与邻国博弈的旧思维，却妄想繁荣发展——这种"考底利耶式"的权谋心态早已注定了印度的失败命运。
 
@abhinavamazon8716
it is so shameful... that we are still talking about Pakistan.... we as a country are not recognizing our capability... we should have manufacturing... manufacturing only.... gone are those times we are an APP economy.... We as country have poor CAD CAM skills even in software we are weak in cad cam software ... and believe me manufacturing understanding of plastics material alloys , batteries is an another beast.... there so many stuffs that we are so behind and the HAL is sleep walking... Elon musk made such sophisticated rockets in 10 yrs. We still watch the you tube video of foreigners for education.
 
真令人羞耻……我们竟然还在讨论巴基斯坦……我们作为一个国家没有意识到自己的能力……我们应该专注于制造业……仅仅是制造业……我们早已不再是一个仅依赖APP的经济体……作为国家，我们在CAD、CAM技能方面很弱，甚至在软件领域我们也在CAD、CAM软件方面处于落后状态……相信我，制造业中对塑料、材料合金、电池的理解是另一个难题……我们在许多领域都落后了，HAL公司也在“梦游”……埃隆·马斯克在10年内就制造出了如此复杂的火箭，而我们还在看外国人的YouTube视频来接受教育。