J-20和SU-57都是真正的第五代战斗机吗？

GeraldSR
Yes; technically they are; but the issue some Lockheed Martin employees and advertisers here on Quora pose, is that *tHeY aRe NoT aS gOoD as the MeSsIaNic f-35 jET tHat WiLL fiGHT THE antiChrist*
是的；从技术上讲，它们是；但Quora上一些洛克希德·马丁公司的员工和广告商提出的问题是，*它们不如将对抗敌基督的弥赛亚F-35喷气机那样优秀*

While, I don’t really doubt that much— hell, that F-35 project took ENTIRE defense budgets just to build; if there is ANY doubt, then Lockheed Martin should pack up, and all engineers and designers and everyone working there imprisoned for theft of public money and for wasting 1–2 decades headstart in computing technology.
虽然，我并不太怀疑这一点——天啊，F-35项目花了整个国防预算才建造出来；如果还有任何疑问，那么洛克希德·马丁公司应该收拾包袱，所有工程师、设计师和在那里工作的每个人都应该因盗窃公共资金和浪费计算技术10-20年的先发优势而被监禁。

But again, the Su 57 and J-20 are both reasonable 5th generation fighters.
但话说回来，Su-57和J-20都是合理的第五代战斗机。

But before we dive into it: what is a 5th generation fighter jet anyways ? There is no agreed upon definition, but they are said to include stealth— otherwise known as reduced Radar Cross Section— (by RAM coatings and geometric form and internal weapons bays), advanced avionics— with powerful AESA radars and networking capabilities) electronic warfare suites (integrated in the main radars themselves, sensors or L band radars), increased situational awareness, powerful engines, agile airfrxs (in the case of the F-22 it also includes supercruise without the use of an afterburner).
但在我们深入探讨之前：第五代战斗机到底是什么？虽然没有一致的定义，但据说它们包括隐身技术——也称为降低雷达截面积（通过RAM涂层、几何形状和内部武器舱）、先进航空电子设备（配备强大的AESA（有源相控阵）雷达和网络能力）、电子战套件（集成在主雷达本身、传感器或L波段雷达中）、增强的态势感知能力、强大的发动机、敏捷的机身（在F-22的情况下，还包括不使用加力燃烧室的超音速巡航）。


Prototype Su-57 up, and down is the serial production aircraft— much smoother, no big gaps, and the canopy seems coated in material too, as well as the rest of the aircraft— it has a focus of frontal stealth, and it will receive Saturn Izdeliye 30 engines to reduce R.C.S. from the back too in the near future.
原型机Su-57在上，量产型飞机在下——更加光滑，没有大的缝隙，座舱盖似乎也涂有材料，飞机的其他部分也是如此——它注重正面隐身，并且将在不久的将来接收土星产品30发动机，以减少后部的雷达截面积。


The J-20 also seems reasonably stealthy except those 2 canard wings and the engine covers could be better, BUT IT IS STILL reasonably stealthy.
J-20似乎也相当隐身，除了那两个鸭翼和发动机盖可以做得更好，但它仍然相当隐身。

I won’t go into the details of “why the F-35 is a stealthier fighter, with better networking capabilities and so forth”, there are already THOUSANDS of answers here, but we have to remember a few reasons of why it came to be like this:
我不会详细说明“为什么F-35是更隐身的战斗机，具有更好的网络能力等等”，这里已经有成千上万的答案，但我们必须记住几个原因，为什么它会变成这样：

(DISCLAIMER ! NOT because Russians are commies and orcs or that the Chinese are inherently stupid and can’t manufacture even if their life depended on it— like some people make it out to be)
（免责声明！并非因为俄罗斯人是共产主义者或兽人，也并非因为中国人天生愚笨、哪怕事关生死也制造不出东西——如同某些人所渲染的那样。）

Neither of these 2 countries have had the money of the USA—combined, Russia had a rough ’90s decade riddled with incompetent leaders, 2 wars, insurgencies, the collapse of a great power that was the USSR; then China was VERY far behind either of them in aviation and was just starting, then neither of them had the computing necessary to keep a super computer that is a stealth fighter jet until very recently, and neither of these 2 countries have had as much focus on air power as the USA— even if they managed to make better fighter jets than the USA, they would be too few to make a difference anyways.
这两个国家都没有美国的资金——加起来，俄罗斯在90年代经历了艰难的十年，充斥着无能的领导人、两场战争、叛乱，以及苏联这个超级大国的崩溃；然后中国在航空方面远远落后于两者，刚刚起步，直到最近，它们都没有必要的计算能力来维持像隐身战斗机这样的超级计算机，而且这两个国家都没有像美国那样重视空中力量——即使它们设法制造出比美国更好的战斗机，数量也太少，无论如何都无法改变局面。

We’ll have to see how much both Russia and China improve their stealth fighter jet designs in the next 10–20 years; I am eager to see the Mig PAK DP interceptor; if it doesn’t have a 3000 T/R module AESA radar with notch antennas and some stealth, I will be thoroughly disappointed in them, and then the Chinese with their navy stealth fighter that is yet to come.
我们将不得不看看俄罗斯和中国在未来10-20年内如何改进他们的隐身战斗机设计；我渴望看到米格PAK DP截击机；如果它没有配备3000 T/R模块的AESA雷达和缺口天线以及一些隐身技术，我会对他们彻底失望，然后是中国尚未到来的海军隐身战斗机。

Mark Hutchison
Still promising “future” engines …. Laughable.
还在承诺“未来”发动机……可笑。

GeraldSR
Projects take time, good things take time. They are not in a hurry to finish those. The plane functions properly without, just like the F-35 functions just well enough without supercruise, and the F-22 doesn’t have that advanced sensor suite.
项目需要时间，好东西需要时间。他们并不急于仓促完成。飞机没有这些功能也能正常运作——正如F-35没有超音速巡航性能也足够出色，而F-22也并未搭载那种先进的传感器套件。


Anyways; if you are so much smarter than all of Sukhoi’s engineers, you should go and tell them what THEY have to do. According to this twisted narrative, they’d worship you as a literal God, because they can’t figure out shit for themselves… you would also make millions, right ?
Tell them: “Fools !!!!! WHY ARE YOU MAKING BABOON IMPROVEMENTS, YOU PUT THIS HERE, AND THAT THERE !!!!!!!! WORSHIP ME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FOR I AM A LOCKHEED MARTIN GOD, WHO IS ALL HAILED BY ADVERTISERS !!!!!!!!!”
总之；如果你比所有苏霍伊的工程师都聪明，你应该去告诉他们该做什么。根据这种扭曲的说法，他们会把你当作真正的神崇拜，因为他们自己搞不定……你还能赚几百万，对吧？
告诉他们：“傻瓜们！！！！！你们为什么要做狒狒式的改进，你把这里放这个，那里放那个！！！！！！！崇拜我！！！！！！！！！！！！！！！！因为我是洛克希德·马丁的神，被广告商们欢呼的神！！！！！！！”

Michal Soukup
there is well over 1000 F-35s, when there is fifty operational SU-57 we can talk about a finished project.
有超过1000架F-35，当有50架可操作的SU-57时，我们才能谈论一个完成的项目。

Ali Ali
Having 1000+ of them doesn't mean that they're in tact and operational. Just like we see they're falling from sky randomly. They're only used to bomb poor countries that can't even defend themselves. If Russia had the budget of US then they'd have enough fifth generation fighters. But they don't thanks to US international terrorism that killed millions and stole from poor countries to be on top. But that time's passing slowly but steadily. The beginning of the end for warmongers has started.
拥有1000多架并不意味它们完好无损且可操作。就像我们看到它们随机从天上掉下来。它们只用来轰炸甚至无法自卫的贫穷国家。如果俄罗斯有美国的预算，他们会有足够的第五代战斗机。但他们没有，这要感谢美国的国际恐怖主义，杀害数百万人并从贫穷国家偷窃以保持领先。但那个时代正在缓慢而稳定地过去。战争贩子终结的开始已经到来。

Gary Bjelland
C always seems to get the benefits of our hard work through what I can only think to call espionage or treason. Nor sure which but either way it's getting very old
C似乎总是通过我只能称之为间谍活动或背叛的方式从我们的辛勤工作中获益。不确定是哪种，但无论哪种方式，这都变得非常老套。

Vipul Chaudhary
Finally an answer with facts. The usual American supremacy propoganda is marred everywhere here on quora. People with little to know knowledge claim to be aviation specialist. Heck there is no universally acceptable definition of 5th gen and won't be as there is no standardization institution to certify them.
I am a big fan of F22 and SU 57 and to me they both are wonderful aircraft's.
终于有一个基于事实的答案。通常的美国至上主义宣传在Quora上到处都受到损害。知识匮乏的人自称是航空专家。见鬼，第五代没有普遍接受的定义，也不会有，因为没有标准化机构来认证它们。
我是F22和SU-57的忠实粉丝，对我来说它们都是出色的飞机。

Jacob Mybiz
You actually think America uses propaganda about the quality of our aircraft? History shows the opposite we've always posted lower numbers than their true maximum capabilities and keep our projects that would be the front page of Eurasian times from Russia or China completely secret until they're actually done. The AIM-260 went from a barely reported project to currently being outfitted on our Raptors in months and other than very general ballpark specifics we know nothing about it and no picture exists. The SU-57 is barely airworthy and has been front page news for 5 years+. The J-20 was rushed along very quickly and good for them but the US would never rush a plane that fast they aren't really finished either. If this is your job I won't try to bother you any more but really, look into it. I'm not naive enough to suggest the US doesn't use propaganda but overselling our weapons systems especially aircraft isn't our MO. It is Russia’s though.
你真的认为美国在使用关于我们飞机质量的宣传吗？历史显示相反，我们总是公布比实际最大能力更低的数字，并将那些会成为俄罗斯或中国欧亚时报头版的项目完全保密，直到它们实际完成。AIM-260从一个几乎未被报道的项目，在几个月内就装备到我们的猛禽战斗机上，除了非常笼统的大致细节外，我们一无所知，也没有图片存在。SU-57几乎不适航，并且成为头条新闻已经5年以上。J-20进展非常快，对他们来说是好事，但美国永远不会那么匆忙地推出一架飞机，它们也没有真正完成。如果这是你的工作，我不会再打扰你，但真的，调查一下。我还不至于天真到认为美国不使用宣传，但夸大我们的武器系统尤其是飞机不是我们的作风。但俄罗斯是。

GeraldSR
They sure are; atleast from a beauty standard; I love how the Su-57 looks, it is menacing and has a sharp front, and the shape of the wings in nice too !
它们确实是；至少从美观标准来看；我喜欢Su-57的外观，它看起来很威胁，前部锋利，机翼形状也很好！

To me, the greatest issue when talking about these is the american elitism that surfaces out, the mentality that “we are better than all of them ‘cuz we are MURICAN”
对我来说，谈论这些时最大的问题是暴露出来的美国精英主义，那种“我们比他们都好，因为我们是美国人”的心态。

I don’t really doubt the F-35 or F-22 being better than either of those; but just because they are better don’t make the Su-57 or J-20 bad IN THE SLIGHTEST !
我并不真的怀疑F-35或F-22比它们更好；但仅仅因为它们更好，并不意味着Su-57或J-20有多差！

Both the Su-57 and J-20 are better than all aircraft with the exception of the F-35 and F-22, and we don’t know EXACTLY by how much. Lockheed Martin might exaggerate numbers for sales, they have no reason to be honest, so it is REALLY hard to make a good estimation, as neither the Russians, nor the Chinese publish data regarding theirs much.
无论是苏-57还是歼-20，其性能都优于除F-35和F-22之外的所有战机，但我们无法确切知道它们究竟领先多少。洛克希德·马丁公司可能为销售目的夸大数字，他们没有如实公布的理由，因此很难做出准确评估——毕竟俄罗斯和中国也极少公开自家战机的详细数据。

Taelor Pickel
I always considered that if Russia had similar power, industrial and economic, as the Soviet unx, they would easily be on par with the United States.
我一直认为，如果俄罗斯拥有与苏联相似的权力、工业和经济，他们将很容易与美国匹敌。

Russia already had plentiful advanced aeronautics in the ’90s but didn’t have the budget to sustain them or more so because they were in a rebuild status.
俄罗斯在90年代已经拥有大量先进的航空技术，但没有预算来维持它们，或者更因为处于重建状态。

We Americans notoriously brag about our military superiority but the truth is we haven’t really fought any huge opponents with in-parity technology since the Korean War.
我们美国人以吹嘘我们的军事优势而闻名，但事实是，自从朝鲜战争以来，我们并没有真正与技术上对等的强大对手作战过。

We had the F-22 planned in the late ‘90s, this is still super impressive, obviously. But the Russians already had plans for stealth fighters in the same era. One of them is Project MiG 1.44 (clearly which the Chinese J-20s were inspired).
我们在90年代末计划了F-22，这仍然令人印象深刻，显然。但俄罗斯在同一时代已经有了隐身战斗机的计划。其中之一是米格1.44项目（显然中国的J-20受到了启发）。

Also, didn’t a Russian scientist help American aviation progress to the way it is now? So much for “American supremacy”.
还有，不是有一位俄罗斯科学家帮助美国航空发展到现在的样子吗？所谓的“美国至上”也就这样了。

GeraldSR
The USSR was a superpower up until the 90s. If there was anyone who could compete against the USA it was them. Up until then, they had a very similar power industrially and economically, but were a little behind in technology, and the gap was increasing because the Soviets weren’t focusing enough on it (and maybe they couldn’t in the end)
苏联直到90年代都是一个超级大国。如果有人能与美国竞争，那就是他们。直到那时，他们在工业和经济上拥有非常相似的力量，但在技术上有点落后，而且差距在扩大，因为苏联没有足够重视它（也许他们最终不能）

But the USA had one advantage over the USSR which allowed it to advance technologically— faster; that being capitalism itself.
但美国有一个优于苏联的优势，使其在技术上进步更快；那就是资本主义本身。

This was the USSR’s biggest downfall.
这是苏联最大的垮台原因。

Capitalism is just a better economic system; if managed properly (and not letting oligarchs decide laws however they want). It promotes more competition and increases the innovation spirit amongst the geniuses who will work against each other, with a bigger prize than geniuses living under socialism.
资本主义只是一个更好的经济体系；如果管理得当（并且不让寡头随心所欲地决定法律）。它促进更多竞争，并增加天才之间的创新精神，他们相互竞争，比生活在社会主义下的天才获得更大的奖励。

It remains to be seen how China holds up against the USA in the next decades. Russia doesn’t have the power of the Soviet unx anymore, and it is not really fair to compare them.
中国在未来几十年如何对抗美国还有待观察。俄罗斯不再拥有苏联的力量，比较它们并不真正公平。

Tony Lester
NO, 4.5+ may be. The SU-57 will probably never really work well. The J-20 is constantly evolving. Maybe one day. The big problem both these planes have is sensor integration and no real stealth outside of a simple mission profile. Their engines are pretty poor compared to F-35 equivalent.
不，或许只能算4.5代以上。苏-57可能永远无法真正完善运作。歼-20则处在持续演进中，或许未来有一天能突破局限。这两款战机面临的共同核心难题在于传感器整合能力不足，且除了基础任务构型外缺乏真正的隐身效能。相较于F-35同级别引擎，它们的发动机性能仍存在明显差距。

Chris Christodoulou
Please provide any details you have about the sensor fusion network of the J20, as well as why it has “no real stealth outside of a simple mission profile”.
Take your bias out of it entirely if possible, use actual data or analysis from the experts. Feel free to reference any report/papers coming out of either well regarded China analysts or western militaries.
请提供你关于J20传感器融合网络的任何细节，以及为什么它“在简单任务剖面外没有真正的隐身能力”。
如果可能，完全去除你的偏见，使用专家的实际数据或分析。随意引用任何来自受尊敬的中国分析家或西方军队的报告/论文。

Chad Bernard
The engines are poor compared to F-35 rofl. The F135 engine needs a complete overhaul at as low as 1200hrs. That is the worst by far of any of the other engines even in 4th generation.
与F-35相比发动机很差，笑死人了。F135发动机在低至1200小时就需要全面检修。这甚至是第四代发动机中最差的。

Tony Lester
Their engines are great. Very good and powerful, they are super high performance, so they require a lot of maintenance. They are not cheap to maintain, but the US has the money to have the best. China is still working on making engines that are as good as the one on the F-15, which is ancient tech. So unless you want to fly a dinosaur, Chinese planes are not the best yet. They are getting better but they are gen4 at best, US is getting ready to field gen 6.
他们的发动机性能非常出色。这些引擎不仅优异且动力强劲，拥有超高性能，因此也需要大量维护工作。维护成本虽不低廉，但美国拥有足够财力以保有顶尖技术。中国仍在努力研制可与F-15搭载的发动机相媲美的产品——而F-15的技术已属陈旧。因此，除非你想驾驶“恐龙级”战机，否则中国飞机目前尚非最优选择。它们确实在不断进步，但至多达到第四代水平，而美国已准备将第六代战机投入实战部署。