Reddit话题:资本主义的黑暗历史
The dark history of capitalism
译文简介
资本主义的历史远在社会主义概念形成之前就开始了
正文翻译

Nuck2407
Capitalisms history begins long before the idea of socialism was conceived and I see so many arguments being made on the point that 20th century socialism was heinous and killed so many people yada yada yada and I'm going to put this down to recency bias.
The story of capitalism begins in Venice in the 12th or 13th century, but not so important for the point I'm making, for that we start in the late 15th century, this is where we see the foundation of capitalism begin.
Europe has taken ideas from Venice and mercantilism has begun, exploration, expansion, exploitation. The first stop is going to be 1492, this is the year where history divides two types of slavery, ancient, like the shit you read in the Bible which while still disgusting was tame compared to what happens next. Modern slavery is a whole different beast, it is barbaric in comparison and the key defining factor is that this is when slavery shifted towards profit from labor. European capitalism and modern slavery will be intwined for the next 400 years.
It's also the year our first superpower comes into being, the Spanish empire ventured out and invaded the Americas, killing tens of millions in the process, the Americas were of particular use to them as they extracted fortunes of wealth from the lands, rare metals like gold and silver were abundant and the local populations were enslaved in order to ship them back to Spain. The sheer scale of bloodshed is represented by one figure, 90% of the population of the Americas was wiped out by the Spanish in the pursuit of profit. It is to this day the largest mortality event to global population in history. But as all empires do (take notes USA) it begins to fail.
However there are plenty of other Europeans who are ready to join the party, the British, France, Portugal the Dutch, Europe sees the stunning wealth and embark on a mission to conquer the globe. Our next destination is Asia where we see the invasions of India, wars with China and the colonization and exploitation of the entire region. The culmination of this is the British killing 100 million Indians between 1880 and 1920 and the largest wealth transfer in human history. That more than any death toll we attribute to socialism, just in India over 40/400 years of European imperialism.
资本主义的历史远在社会主义概念形成之前就开始了。我看到很多人总抓着20世纪社会主义有多可怕、害死多少人这类说辞叨叨个没完,我觉得这纯粹是近因偏见作祟。
资本主义的故事要从12或13世纪的威尼斯说起,不过这对我要说的重点不太重要,我们直接从15世纪末开始——这才是资本主义真正奠基的时候。
欧洲吸收了威尼斯的理念,重商主义兴起,探索、扩张、剥削接踵而至。第一站来到1492年,这一年划分了两种奴隶制:古代奴隶制(就像圣经里记载的那种,虽然恶心但跟后来的相比还算温和)和现代奴隶制——这完全是另一种野兽,相比之下更加野蛮,关键区别在于奴隶制从此转向了榨取劳动利润。此后四百年,欧洲资本主义与现代奴隶制始终纠缠不清。
也正是这一年,首个超级大国西班牙帝国诞生。他们远征美洲,过程中屠戮数千万人。美洲对他们特别有用,能从这片土地榨取巨额财富——金银等贵金属储量丰富,原住民被奴役着将财富运回西班牙。这场血腥屠杀的规模用一个数字就能体现:90%的美洲人口在西班牙追逐利润的过程中灭绝。这至今仍是人类历史上最大规模的全球人口灭绝事件。但正如所有帝国的命运(美国记笔记),西班牙开始衰落了。
不过其他欧洲国家早就迫不及待要加入这场盛宴:英国、法国、葡萄牙、荷兰...欧洲目睹惊人财富后,开启了征服全球的征程。下一站是亚洲,我们目睹了对印度的入侵、与中国的战争,以及整个地区的殖民剥削。其中最残酷的,是1880至1920年间英国屠戮了一亿印度人,以及人类历史上最大规模的财富转移。光是印度这四十年/四百年欧洲帝国主义造成的死亡,就远超我们归咎于社会主义的任何死亡数据。
Meanwhile expansion into Africa and the expansion of the slave trade all fueled by the desire for wealth generating labor. Massacres, enslavement, GENOCIDE again all fueled by the desire for profit, shipped all over the world to work in conditions that make the gulags look like a vacation home.
It's a pattern that continues into Australia, an entire continent stolen, the indigenous population enslaved, attempted GENOCIDE, kids being stolen from their parents, again all in the pursuit of wealth and profit.
Hundreds of millions of people have been killed, enslaved, and some of human kinds worst acts all committed as a result of capitalism.
We all like to think that slavery came to an end because we realized the disgusting nature of what was happening, however the reality is the British pushed abolition so hard in to destabilize other European economies, it had a significant advantage from the individual revolution and saw the abolition to be disruptive to their competitors especially the French and especially the French in Hati. And as I've mentioned above even once that has occurred the British still kill more Indians than any socialist dictator after abolition occurs.
Marx starts writing Das Kapital in a world here real slavery was still a common practice for capitalism and its release is barley beat out by abolition in the US.
To view socialism through the lense of devestating death tolls when capitalism was built on dead indigenous populations and slavery, slavery so bad that we actually have to distinguish it from other forms of slavery, is pure ignorance. Capitalism spread through every continent on earth in blood, there is no moral high ground you can pretend to hold here, the death tolls are far heavier and the treatment far worse than anything that has occurred under socialist regimes (not that it excuses their behavior).
与此同时,向非洲扩张和奴隶贸易的扩大,全都源于对能带来财富的劳动力的渴望。大屠杀、奴役、种族灭绝,同样都是为了追逐利润。奴隶被运往世界各地,在比古拉格集中营还恶劣多的环境里劳作。
这种模式延续到澳大利亚:整片大陆被窃取,原住民遭奴役,实施种族灭绝,儿童被从父母身边夺走,一切依旧为了追逐财富和利润。
数亿人因此丧生、遭受奴役,人类最恶劣的行径许多都是资本主义的产物。
我们都一厢情愿地认为奴隶制终结是因为人们认识到其丑恶本质,但现实是英国极力推动废奴是为了破坏其他欧洲经济体。英国凭借工业革命获得巨大优势,认为废奴能打击竞争对手,特别是法国,尤其是海地的法国势力。正如前文所述,即便废奴之后,英国屠杀的印度人仍超过任何社会主义独裁者。
马克思开始撰写《资本论》时,真实的奴隶制在资本主义世界仍很普遍,该著作出版时间仅比美国废奴早一点点。
在资本主义建立在原住民尸骨和奴隶制(这种奴隶制恶劣到我们必须将其与其他形式区分开来)之上的前提下,用死亡人数来批判社会主义纯粹是无知。资本主义踏着鲜血蔓延到地球每个大洲,装什么道德高尚?资本主义造成的死亡人数远远更多,手段远比社会主义政权下的任何行为更残忍(当然这不是为他们的行为开脱)。
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StedeBonnet1
Colonialism had nothing to do with Capitalism. If what you say was true why are all the free nations on earth Capitalist and there are no successful Socialist nations to be found?
殖民主义和资本主义毫无关系。如果你说的是真的,为什么地球上所有自由国家都是资本主义,却找不到一个成功的社会主义国家?
Peaceful_radical -> StedeBonnet1
Wonder why it was called the Atlantic slave TRADE
想知道为什么它被称为“大西洋奴隶贸易”吗
StedeBonnet1 -> Peaceful_radical
Colonialism is coercive. Capitalism is voluntary exchange. When colonial owners capture local resources like rubber and sell them that is not capitalism.
殖民主义是强制的。资本主义是自愿交换。殖民者掠夺当地橡胶等资源再出售,这不叫资本主义。
Delmarvablacksmith -> StedeBonnet1
Ok
So do we look at all of the wealth generated by colonial pursuits and exclude it from capitalist success and the continuously mentioned benefit of it pulling billions out of poverty?
Colonialism world wide in a way hasn’t ended
All the wealth of the British empire was from coercion right?
French empire, same.
Belgians, same.
Germans, Same.
Spanish, same.
If we take all of that wealth away then how successful is capitalism actually?
好。那我们是不是该把殖民掠夺产生的所有财富都从资本主义的成功里剔除掉?还有他们整天挂在嘴边的"让几十亿人脱贫"的功劳?
殖民主义在全球范围其实没有真正结束。
大英帝国的财富全是靠胁迫抢来的吧?
法兰西帝国也是。
比利时也是。
德国也是。
西班牙也是。
要是把这些脏钱全都剔除掉,资本主义到底还剩下多少真本事?
Martofunes -> StedeBonnet1
Oh my god the ignorance.
天啊,真是无知。
HarlequinBKK
Gish gallop, full of MASSIVE exaggerations and very..."creative" analysis and interpretations of world history in the last few centuries. For example, claiming:
The sheer scale of bloodshed is represented by one figure, 90% of the population of the Americas was wiped out by the Spanish in the pursuit of profit.
WRONG. Most of the decline of indigenous populations of the Americas was due to the fact that they had little natural immunity to the infectious diseases that Europeans carried. Can't blame Europeans or capitalism for this, since the nature of infectious diseases and immunity was not known at the time.
The rest of the rubbish you are spouting in your OP is not worth responding to.
You and I enjoy a FAR higher material standard of living today compared to even a few centuries ago as a result of capitalism.
整篇都是极度夸张和对近几个世纪世界史的“创意”解读。比如声称:
美洲人口锐减90%全因西班牙人为追求利润进行大屠杀——纯属胡扯。美洲原住民人口下降主因是他们缺乏对欧洲人所携传染病的天然免疫力。这怪不到欧洲人或资本主义头上,当时根本没人了解传染病和免疫原理。
你主帖里其他废话根本不值得反驳。
正因为资本主义,你我如今享受的物质生活水平比几百年前高出不知多少倍。
Nuck2407 -> HarlequinBKK
You and I enjoy a FAR higher material standard of living today compared to even a few centuries ago as a result of capitalism.
Oh so GENOCIDE and slavery is acceptable, so long as we get to enjoy a benefit from it
Btw handing out smallpox ridden blankets sure does seem like people knew exactly what would happen releasing disease into communities with no immunity
“正因为资本主义,你我如今享受的物质生活水平比几百年前高出不知多少倍”
哦,所以种族灭绝和奴隶制是可以接受的,只要我们能从中受益?
顺便说一句,分发沾满天花病毒的毯子,看起来确实像是有人明知故犯,故意把疾病传入毫无免疫力的群体。
HarlequinBKK -> Nuck2407
More rubbish. You are not enjoying your current material standard of living as a result of slavery or GENOCIDE...obviously.
一派胡言。你们现在的生活水平跟奴隶制或种族灭绝根本没关系... 明摆着的。
libcon2025
Capitalism is all about freedom and free exchange. Capitalism ended colonialism imperialism and slavery. Did you think it was coincidental that colonialism imperialism and slavery ended almost exactly when capitalism appeared after 10,000 years of human history.
资本主义就是自由和自由交换。资本主义终结了殖民主义、帝国主义和奴隶制。人类历史一万年来,殖民主义、帝国主义和奴隶制几乎恰好在资本主义出现时结束,你觉得这是巧合吗?
Nuck2407 -> libcon2025
Hahahaha imperialism was stopped by capitalism..... The carrier group off the coast of Venezuela begs to differ
哈哈哈哈,帝国主义被资本主义阻止了… 委内瑞拉海岸外的航母战斗群可不这么认为。
HarlequinBKK -> Nuck2407
And how exactly is this "imperialism"?
Or do you just hate the USA and everything it does?
这怎么就成“帝国主义”了?
还是说你就是讨厌美国以及它做的一切?
Nuck2407 -> HarlequinBKK
Imperialism is the policy of extending a country's power and influence over other territories, often through direct territorial acquisition or by gaining political and economic control
帝国主义就是一国通过直接占领领土或获取政治经济控制权,把自身势力和影响扩展到其他地区的政策。
HarlequinBKK -> Nuck2407
That's not what is happening here.
You may disagree with the way Trump is dealing with Venezuela on this matter, but don't pretend it is "imperialism" just to fit your theory.
这里的情况根本不是你说的那样。
你可以不认同特朗普处理委内瑞拉问题的方式,但别为了套用你的理论就硬说这是“帝国主义”。
Nuck2407 -> HarlequinBKK
It's exactly imperialism
这正是帝国主义。
HarlequinBKK -> Nuck2407
No, just trying to stop the flow of illegal drugs.
But you see "imperialism" because you want to see it.
不,我们只是在阻止非法毒品流通。
但你觉得这是“帝国主义”,是因为你非要这么想。
Nuck2407 -> HarlequinBKK
Oh you mean he wants to restrict the free market?
哦,你是说他想要限制自由市场?
HarlequinBKK -> Nuck2407
???
Nuck2407 -> HarlequinBKK
Seems like these dude just want to trade and the Don doesn't like it, seems like intervention in the free market if you ask me
这些人只是想做交易,可川普不乐意,要我说这简直是在干预自由市场。
jqpeub -> HarlequinBKK
You really believe it's about drugs? That's fucking stupid homie
你真觉得这是毒品的事?太他妈蠢了,哥们。
Shot-Independent-488
Strong enjoy weak cry! That is the cruel part of reality. Are lions evil hunting a deer? You do not have any moral about it. Yes, Slavery is bad. But nature does not care our feeling that is part of this unsetting world.
强者享乐,弱者哭泣!这就是现实的残酷之处。狮子捕鹿算邪恶吗?你对此没有任何道德评判。没错,奴隶制很糟糕。但大自然才不在乎我们的感受,这就是这个令人不安世界的一部分。
aDamncommunist -> Shot-Independent-488
Few animals predate their own species and it is usually in extreme conditions. How the hell do you square this metaphor of lions and deer with slavery?!
Might makes right is not a valid strategy even in nature.
很少有动物会捕食同类,这通常发生在极端情况下。你这种狮子与鹿的比喻怎么能套用到奴隶制上?!
就算在自然界里,弱肉强食也算不上正当理由。
soulwind42
Slavery is incompatible with capitalism and anyplace where slavery is practiced it cannot, by definition, be a capitalist system as the actors within it lack autonomy.
奴隶制与资本主义水火不容。凡是实行奴隶制的地方,本质上都不可能是资本主义体系,因为其中的参与者没有自主权。
Accomplished-Cake131 -> soulwind42
Cotton from the American south fed those dark satanic mills in Manchester, England. What was happening in Manchester in the early 19th century is very much a part of capitalism.
美国南部的棉花供应着英国曼彻斯特那些黑暗邪恶的工厂。19世纪初曼彻斯特发生的一切,正是资本主义的组成部分。
libcon2025
So you're saying it is only coincidental now that there are no monopolies? But pretty soon capitalism is going to start producing monopoly again because it is so evil
所以你是说现在没有垄断只是巧合?但很快资本主义又会开始制造垄断,因为它就是这么邪恶
Nuck2407 -> libcon2025
Pick up a history book.... It's not coincidental when the government breaks up monopolies
去翻翻历史书吧… 政府拆分垄断企业从来不是偶然。