Have NATO countries forgotten that Russia sacrificed millions of soldiers in WW2 for a free, prosperous Europe?

北约国家是否忘记了,俄罗斯在二战中为了一个自由、繁荣的欧洲牺牲了数百万士兵?

Valtteri Aaltonen, M.A International Relations & History, University of Nottingham

瓦尔特里·阿尔托宁 诺丁汉大学国际关系与历史学硕士

You ask if NATO and Europe have forgotten what happened in WW2? No, they haven’t. Russia did not sacrifice millions of soldiers "for a free, prosperous Europe." At the time, the Soviet unx—together with Nazi Germany—signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact to divide and conquer Europe. They jointly invaded and occupied Poland, even holding a joint victory parade with the Nazis.

你问北约和欧洲是否忘记了二战中发生的事?不,他们没有忘记。俄罗斯并非“为了一个自由、繁荣的欧洲”而牺牲数百万士兵。当时,苏联与纳粹德国共同签署了《莫洛托夫-里宾特洛甫条约》,意图瓜分并征服欧洲。他们联合入侵并占领了波兰,甚至与纳粹举行了联合胜利游行。

Following that, the Soviet unx occupied Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, parts of Romania, and attempted to invade Finland. Meanwhile, Nazi Germany conquered Denmark, Norway, and other parts of Europe.

此后,苏联占领了爱沙尼亚、拉脱维亚、立陶宛、罗马尼亚部分地区,并试图入侵芬兰。与此同时,纳粹德国征服了丹麦、挪威等欧洲其他地区。

As we know, Germany eventually betrayed the Soviet unx and launched a massive invasion. Western countries then saw the USSR as the lesser of two evils and provided substantial support to help it resist Germany. The scale of this aid was staggering: for example over 7,000 tanks, 11,000 aircraft, and 400,000 jeeps and trucks - especially critical given the Soviet unx’s logistical weaknesses.

众所周知,德国最终背叛了苏联,发动了大规模入侵。西方国家随后将苏联视为两害相权取其轻的一方,并提供了大量支持以帮助其抵抗德国。援助规模令人震惊:例如超过7000辆坦克、11000架飞机以及40万辆吉普车和卡车——考虑到苏联的后勤短板,这些援助尤为关键。

Yes, the Soviet unx lost millions of soldiers in its war against Germany, and with Western help, managed to repel the invasion. But it did not fight to liberate others. It fought to survive, to regain territories it had previously occupied and lost to Germany—and to take even more.

诚然,苏联在对德战争中损失了数百万士兵,并在西方的帮助下成功击退了入侵。但它并非为解放他人而战,而是为生存而战,为夺回此前占领后又被德国夺走的领土——并企图夺取更多土地而战。

At no point did the Soviet unx aim for a free Europe. It sought to impose communist dictatorships controlled by Moscow.

苏联从未以建立自由欧洲为目标,而是试图推行由莫斯科控制的共产主义独裁统治。

Ivan Rychecký, Lives in Ostrava, Czech Republic

伊万·雷切基 居住于捷克共和国俄斯特拉发

As far as I know Russia / Soviet unx only entered WW2 because it was betrayed and ambushed by their ally in a war with Poland.

据我所知,俄罗斯/苏联卷入二战,只是因为在与波兰的战争中被其盟友背叛并伏击。

Officers from allied forces exchange greetings. (1939)
联盟双方军官互相问候。(1939年)


Bodies of Polish officers and civilians to whom the Soviets gave freedom and prosperity in death (1940, Katyn)
那些被苏联人在死亡中赋予“自由与繁荣”的波兰军官和平民的遗体(1940年,卡廷)

Also “Russia” at that time was Stalin. Nothing more, nothing less. The idea that anyone else, even less so the Russians themselves (Stalin was Georgian), had any say in their country’s decision making is hilarious.

此外,当时的“俄罗斯”就是斯大林,仅此而已。认为其他人——更不用说俄罗斯人自己(斯大林是格鲁吉亚人)——能对国家决策有任何发言权的想法,简直荒谬可笑。

Stalin was, of course, a well-known philanthropist. He gave bullets to the head not only to his enemies, but also to competent subordinates. Free of charge!

当然,斯大林是一位著名的“慈善家”。他不仅给敌人,也给有能力的下属送上头部子弹,而且分文不取!

David Luesley

大卫·卢斯利

Quite the opposite. USSR had initially partnered with the Nazis to disassemble Poland, which initiated WWII. Nazis and soviets each got half of Poland and brokered a non-aggression and trade agreement which had Russia providing raw materials for the Nazi war machine.

恰恰相反。苏联最初与纳粹合作肢解波兰,这一行为引发了二战。纳粹和苏联各自分得波兰的一半,并签订了互不侵犯条约与贸易协定,俄罗斯为纳粹战争机器提供原材料。

Stalin was eager to partner with the Nazis and getting their peice of the looting and territory. Till the Nazis betrayed the soviets.
Like the bizarre love affairs we witness today among dictators. Stalin could not envision his new bff Hitler betraying him.

斯大林迫切希望与纳粹合作,分得掠夺的赃物和领土,直到纳粹背叛了苏联。
就像我们如今看到的独裁者之间怪异的“情谊”一样,斯大林从未想过他的新“挚友”希特勒会背叛他。

The Nazis had always planned on colonizing eastern Europe and Soviet territory. The populations of the Soviet territories were considered subhuman and would be used as slaves. Nazis invaded USSR along a 3000 mile front and attempted to butcher their way to Moscow, almost made it.

纳粹一直计划殖民东欧和苏联领土,他们将苏联领土上的居民视为劣等人,打算将其用作奴隶。纳粹沿3000英里战线入侵苏联,企图一路屠杀至莫斯科,且险些成功。

Prior to Stalingrad it wasn't looking good for the soviets. Americans provided lend lease military equipment and ordinance to USSR, ironically just like our support of Ukraine.

在斯大林格勒战役之前,苏联的局势并不乐观。美国人通过租借法案向苏联提供了军事装备和弹药,具有讽刺意味的是,这与我们如今对乌克兰的支持如出一辙。

Soviets allied with the West for survival, not sacrifice. Soviets drive to Berlin was simply soviets colonizing eastern Europe. Soviets territories “Warsaw pact” were not prosperous and the soviets supported the governments they installed in Eastern European countries brutally.

苏联与西方结盟是为了生存,而非牺牲。苏联向柏林进军,本质上是对东欧的殖民。苏联的“华沙条约组织”成员国并未实现繁荣,苏联还对其在东欧国家扶植的政府提供了残酷支持。

45 years later as USSR was collapsing the Soviet prison of the iron curtain was trampled and eastern Europe freed itself. In 91 USSR collapsed.
Then eastern Europe became prosperous again. Prior USSR territories didn't.

45年后,随着苏联濒临崩溃,“铁幕”笼罩下的苏联牢笼被冲破,东欧实现了自我解放。1991年,苏联解体。
此后,东欧再次走向繁荣,而原苏联领土却未能如此。

Echo Mike, Former Infantryman at The 75th Ranger Regiment

埃科·迈克 前第75游骑兵团步兵

In the beginning the USSR and the Nazis joined together and attacked Poland. The UK and France were allied with Poland. By all rights, the UK and France should have also declared war on the USSR.
NATO counties have not forgotten how Russia joined with the Nazis and attacked Poland. Also how Russia supplied most of the oil for the Nazis. Have you forgotten the duplicitous nature of Stalin? Or are you trying to rewrite history. Remember Poland is now part of NATO. NATO hasn't forgotten anything. Especially the Katyn Massacre.

起初,苏联与纳粹联手进攻波兰。英国和法国与波兰是盟友,按理说,英、法也应该向苏联宣战。
北约国家从未忘记俄罗斯曾与纳粹联手进攻波兰,也未忘记俄罗斯为纳粹提供了大部分石油。你是否忘记了斯大林的两面三刀?还是说你在试图改写历史?要知道,波兰现在是北约成员国,北约什么都没忘,尤其是卡廷惨案。

Tomaž Vargazon, Practicing atheist, Upvoted by Patrick, Masters International Relations and Innes Doig, WWII buff

托马日·瓦尔加宗 无神论者,获国际关系硕士帕特里克、二战迷英尼斯·多伊格点赞

Yes, Russians sacrificed millions of soldiers for a free, prosperous Europe.
Russian soldiers in Prague, remining Czechs they made them prosperous and free, 1968

是啊,俄罗斯人为了一个自由、繁荣的欧洲牺牲了数百万士兵呢。
1968年,布拉格的俄罗斯士兵“提醒”捷克人,是他们带来了繁荣与自由。

Russians did not sacrifice millions of soldiers for anyone. They were invaded by the Nazis and fought a war of survival. It wasn’t a war Russians wanted, it was forced onto them by a foreign invader. Nor did they exactly free anyone, Soviet rule was harsh and brutal. It’s not looked at fondly by anyone, except Russians and Belorussians.

俄罗斯人并未为任何人牺牲数百万士兵。他们遭到纳粹入侵,打响的是一场生存之战。这场战争并非俄罗斯人所愿,而是外国侵略者强加给他们的。他们也没有真正解放任何人,苏联的统治残酷而严苛,除了俄罗斯人和白俄罗斯人,没有人对此怀有好感。

Neither was the eastern block prosperous. It was better than undeveloped parts of Africa, but it was better than those places even before the war. Soviet unx is described as a “doughnut empire”, most empires have a rich homeland which rules over large tracts of undeveloped outremer areas. Soviet empire inverted this and had a poor homeland rule over and extract tribute from wealthier colonies.

东欧集团也并未实现繁荣。它虽比非洲欠发达地区要好,但即便在战前,这些地区就比非洲那些地方更发达。苏联被描述为一个“甜甜圈帝国”——大多数帝国都有一个富裕的本土,统治着大片欠发达的海外领地,而苏联帝国却恰恰相反,它是一个贫穷的本土,统治并掠夺更富裕的殖民地。

Putin is trying to recreate that old glory. But this time he doesn’t have the backing of the bulk of worlds’ industrial and military superpowers to do it, so he’s stuck about 50 km from the border for the most part. That’s how far Russian might goes when not supported by an outside source of money and materiel.

普京正试图重现昔日的辉煌,但这一次,他没有得到世界上大多数工业和军事超级大国的支持,因此大部分时间里,他的军队被困在距离边境约50公里的地方。这就是在没有外部资金和物资支持的情况下,俄罗斯实力的极限。

Doughnut empire remember? It has consequences.

还记得“甜甜圈帝国”吗?这就是它的后果。

Francis, amateur historian

弗朗西斯 业余历史学家

NATO countries have not forgotten the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and that in September 1939 the Soviets invaded Poland to support their military allies the Nazis and to divide up Poland with their military allies. The Poles in particular have not forgotten, and Poland is a NATO member for protection against Russia and hasn’t forgotten.


北约国家从未忘记《莫洛托夫-里宾特洛甫条约》,也未忘记1939年9月苏联入侵波兰——此举是为了支持其军事盟友纳粹,并与盟友瓜分波兰。波兰人对此尤其刻骨铭心,而波兰如今已是北约成员国,加入北约是为了抵御俄罗斯,他们从未忘记这段历史。

NATO countries have not forgotten that in 1940 while it was supplying its allies the Nazis in the Battle of Britain the Soviets were also busy invading and conquering the Baltic States and trying to invade Finland. The Baltic States and Finland are all NATO members for protection against Russia and hasn’t forgotten.

北约国家从未忘记,1940年不列颠之战期间,苏联一边向其盟友纳粹提供援助,一边忙着入侵并征服波罗的海三国,还试图入侵芬兰。如今,波罗的海三国和芬兰均为北约成员国,加入北约是为了抵御俄罗斯,他们也从未忘记这段历史。

NATO countries have not forgotten that the Russians supplied the Nazi war machine until Adolf Hitler got his betrayal in first. And that the reason the Soviets went to war with the Nazis was self defence. The Soviets did not sacrifice so much as a single drop of blood against the Nazis. Instead they spent them in a war of necessity, while Britain and America and numerous allies sacrificed for a war they did not actually need to fight and NATO hasn’t forgotten.

北约国家从未忘记,在阿道夫·希特勒率先背叛之前,俄罗斯一直在为纳粹战争机器提供补给。苏联与纳粹开战的原因是自卫,他们并未为抗击纳粹牺牲过一滴血,而是将鲜血耗费在一场别无选择的战争中。而英国、美国及众多盟友却为一场并非必须参与的战争做出了牺牲,北约对此从未忘记。

NATO countries have not forgotten that whereas the Western Allies were fighting to free Europe the Soviets were fighting to expand their empire, and after the war kept countries like Hungary and Czechoslovakia under their boot heels in the prison of nations that was the Warsaw Pact and invaded several of them including Hungary and Czechoslovakia while “allied” to them. What the Soviets were fighting for was neither free nor prosperous. Every single member of the Warsaw Pact at its dissolution is now a member of NATO for protection against Russia and hasn’t forgotten.

北约国家从未忘记,西方盟国为解放欧洲而战,而苏联却为扩张帝国而战。二战后,苏联将匈牙利、捷克斯洛伐克等国置于铁蹄之下,将其纳入“华沙条约组织”这一国家牢笼,并在与这些国家保持“盟友”关系的同时,入侵了包括匈牙利和捷克斯洛伐克在内的多个国家。苏联所追求的,既非自由,也非繁荣。华沙条约组织解体时的每一个成员国,如今都是北约成员国,加入北约是为了抵御俄罗斯,他们都未曾忘记这段历史。

NATO countries have not forgotten that the Soviet unx was the de facto Russian Empire, and that the highest proportional price was paid by the Ukrainians - but the Russians love stealing the credit as well as for things like the T-34 designed and initially produced in Ukraine. Right now the Ukrainians are fighting a Great Patriotic War against the goose stepping jackbooted thugs invading from the East and intent on ethnic cleansing just as in the 1940s they fought a Great Patriotic War against the goose stepping jackbooted thugs invading from the West and intent on ethnic cleansing. And because NATO countries have not forgotten they are supplying Ukraine.

北约国家从未忘记,苏联实际上就是俄罗斯帝国,而乌克兰人付出了比例最高的代价——但俄罗斯人却喜欢窃取功劳,比如T-34坦克明明是在乌克兰设计并最初生产的,他们也据为己有。如今,乌克兰人正在进行一场伟大的卫国战争,抗击来自东方、意图实施种族清洗的纳粹式暴徒,就像20世纪40年代他们抗击来自西方、意图实施种族清洗的纳粹式暴徒一样。正因为北约国家没有忘记这段历史,所以他们正在为乌克兰提供援助。

NATO countries wish the Russians would stop gaslighting.

北约国家希望俄罗斯停止精神操控。