告别核能时代,德国爆破国内最强大核电站 德网友:不许质疑我们环保政策！

 
@snuggles03
i’m sure Germans are now used to their very high electricity prices
 
我敢肯定德国人现在已经习惯了他们高电费。
 
 
@nadianichols953
Apparently Germany can function just fine on windmills and sunshine.  Good luck with that.
 
显然德国靠风车和阳光就能运转得很好。祝他们好运吧。
 
 
@rich03449
Europe is returning to the dark ages so who needs electricity anyway?
 
欧洲就要回归到黑暗时代了，所以谁还需要电呢？
 
 
@suncarus897
Do they have any alternatives to small-scale nuclear power plants? I don't believe the German government would be so stupid as to completely abandon nuclear energy.
 
他们有什么替代小型核电站的计划吗？我不相信德国政府会蠢到完全放弃核能。
 
 
@toddwhitehill5172
Ohhh...but they are
 
哦，可他们确实这么蠢….
 
 
@gamingrex2930
This isn't a TV show, don't expect "critical thinking" and "considering other viewpoints".
 
这不是电视节目，别指望有什么“批判性思维”和“考虑不同观点”。
 
 
@arbozaliyan
Look up green party. The whole country was run by hippies for decades
 
查下绿党你就知道了。整个德国被这帮嬉皮士折腾几十年了。
 
 
@Asfghjkk-4
Industry 4.0
Industry 0.4
Industry 404
 
（德国）工业4.0——》工业0.4——》工业404
 
 
@agfairfield8575
Compare with “building seven” — sure looks like the same process of demolition
 
和“七号大楼”（注：指美国双子大厦一侧大厦）的垮塌对比一下——感觉垮塌过程真是一模一样。
 
 
@leslieallen7241
My brother did building demolition for a living. The WTC operated 24/7/365. There was never a time it was empty once offices were leased after construction. I tell you that bc it would have taken a minimum of 3 months to lay the explosives, cables and wiring to demolish it which is not something you can do with people running up and down the stairs, riding the elevators and freight elevators constantly. The stairwells and elevator shafts would be where explosives and wiring were laid along with air shafts. Hundreds of men in hard hats would have been coming and going to make sure it was being laid and hooked up properly. It would have been an enormous undertaking and employees of the towers would have noticed. The steel didn't have to melt. It just had to get hot enough to weaken and the kinetic energy of each floor falling onto the one below and so on would have done the rest. The WTC burned intensely due to JP8 jet fuel in the planes that were full on take off. It burned hot enough to weaken the steel and the rest is history. We have enough problems in this country without inventing new ones.
 
我哥是做建筑拆除为生的。世贸中心全年365天、每天24小时都在运转。大楼建成后，办公室一旦租出去，就从没空过。我跟你说这些是因为，要拆它，至少需要3个月时间铺设炸药、电缆和引线 —— 而这根本不可能在有人频繁上下楼梯、坐电梯和使用货运电梯的情况下完成。楼梯间、电梯井以及通风井，都是铺设炸药和线路的地方。得有上百名戴安全帽的安全员频繁巡视，以确保铺设和连接到位。这是一项浩大的工程，世贸中心的员工不可能没注意到。钢材不一定需要熔化，只要热到足以软化就行，而每一层楼坍塌到下一层楼产生的动能，就会引发后续的连锁反应。当时撞击大楼的飞机满载的JP8航空燃油而剧烈燃烧。火势足以软化钢材，后来的事大家都知道了。美国的问题已经够多了，没必要再编造新的。
 
 
@americanclip03proud
Well, you all will see how high your Electricity Bill will be in the Future. This will not boost your Economy, it will drag you down, renewable energy is expensive, also all these climate friendly solutions. Your Policies and Regulations will scare away many Investors. This is not a way how to make money
 
等着瞧吧，你们（德国）以后的电价会越来越高。炸毁它不仅不会发展你们经济，反而会拖垮经济，可再生能源价格高昂，所有这些环保方案也一样。你们的政策法规会吓退好多投资者。这根本不是赚钱的方式。
 
 
@arbozaliyan
Nuclear energy is the true green Energy. All those wind turbines and solar panels are destroying the nature
 
核能才是真正的绿色能源。破坏大自然的是那些风力涡轮机和太阳能电池板。
 
 
@americanclip03proud
 @arbozaliyan I’ve seen wind turbines laying around in South America, are they going to rotten? Looks awful
 
我在南美见过不少闲置的风力涡轮机，它们会烂在那儿吗？看起来太糟了。
 
 
@arbozaliyan
 @americanclip03proud  They are probably gonna re purpose them but it is not cheap either. Just transporting them costs insanely. You scrape the paint, look for defective regions, repair them, grind it, re paint, and pray to god they somehow work. Of course the paint that seeps into the earth while laying on it, is not ecofriendly either.
Some wings can't be reporpused. You gotta melt them down. Of course it is very hard steal so you need over 900 degree Celsius to melt it. Then pour it in a mold, take the slap, flatten it.
None of these are cheap so they are gonna just let them there for a long time.
 
这东西或许会被重新利用，但这也便宜不到哪去。光是运输成本就高得离谱，你得刮掉旧漆、检查破损部位、修复、打磨、重新上漆，然后祈祷它们还能正常运转。当然，这些涡轮机闲置时，上面的油漆渗入土壤也不环保。叶片无法再利用，得熔化掉。但它们用的是硬度极高的钢材，需要900多摄氏度才能融化，之后还得倒进模具、铸成钢坯、再压平。这些步骤没有一项能省钱的，所以它们大概率会在那儿荒废很久。
 
 
@truthseeker2248
So whats the plan? Burn coal instead?
 
那以后怎么办？改用煤炭发电吗？
 
 
@americanclip03proud
Many new Coal Plants are build in China. Always think about the Costs
 
中国正在新建很多燃煤电厂。凡事都要考虑成本啊。
 
 
@arbozaliyan
Don't be ridiculous. Buy electricity from countries which builds nuclear power plants and burn coal.
 
别傻了。从那些有核电站、烧煤炭的国家买电不就行了。
 
 
@annademo
What fools the Germans are.
 
德国人真是蠢。
 
 
@billybud9557
Get ready for a cold winter, less beer and less sauerkraut.
 
为过一个寒冷的冬天做准备吧，啤酒会变少，酸菜也会变少了
 
 
@annieschaffner117
"Climate change" insanity! Nuclear energy does not produce any greenhouse gasses.
 
“气候变化” （这个借口）真是扯淡！核能根本不会产生任何温室气体。
 
 
@discontinued12934
The Germans are a hopeless people, ever since Bismarck died, the Germans keep on stumbling from one disaster to the next.
 
德国人真是要完了，自从俾斯麦死后，他们就一直在各种灾难中跌跌撞撞。
 
 
@skotters
It's hard to fathom that the technical prowess we've had with nuclear power plants is essentially being trumped by crybabies and tree huggers.
 
难以想象，我们德国核电站领域拥有的技术实力，竟然被一群爱哭鬼和环保疯子给搞垮了
 
 
@arbozaliyan
Destroying nuclear power plants then buying electricity from countries who build nuclear power plants. Can't argue with that logic
We don't need renewable energy at all if we use nuclear energy to its full capacity. Renewable energy just produces garbage
 
拆了自家核电站，再从那些有核电站的国家买电。这逻辑简直是没谁了
若是核能能被充分利用，我们根本不需要什么可再生能源。可再生能源只会制造垃圾。
 
 
@morskasvinja2049
Wow it falls just like 9/11 twin towers same as a controlled demolition and a plane brought it down really??????
 
哇，它垮塌的样子和911双子塔简直一模一样，根本就是可控爆破，一架飞机真就能把世贸大厦撞塌吗？？？
 
 
@Agiranto
Germany takes yet another generational L. well done. Fell for it again .
 
德国又输掉一代人的未来。干得漂亮，（他们）又上当了。
 
 
@rcnelson
Well done, Germans! Destroying your future resources for electricity is a brilliant idea. Never mind that a ten-year-old with a hand calculator and data from current electricity use, future increases of that use, and current electrical generation from all sources, could have predicted that you would have to restart the coal power plants you shut down earlier.
When did Germany, known for its technological excellence. turn into goo-goo softheads?
 
干得漂亮，德国人！搞垮自家未来电力来源真是个“绝妙”的主意。但你们难道没想过么？就算找个十岁小孩，结合当前用电量、未来用电增长数据以及现有各种发电方式的数据，都能算出你们迟早得重启之前关停的燃煤电厂。曾以技术卓越闻名的德国，什么时候变得这么糊涂、这么蠢啊？
 
 
@dmitry5449
Congratulations to Germany on continued progress toward a greener, more sustainable energy future!
 
祝德国在通往更绿色、更可持续的能源未来的道路上更进一步！
 
 
@atari1985
Dark future
 
是黑暗的未来吧，哈哈！
 
 
@snuggles03
A more darker and expensive future, congratulations Germany
 
一个更黑暗、更昂贵的未来，恭喜德国
 
 
@milesmoralesplayall
And more expensive for everyone in Europe.
 
而且对每个欧洲人来说都更贵了。
 
 
Rogthgar
These units have been decommissioned since 2021.
 
 
这些（核电）机组自2021年起就已经停止运行了。
 
 
PresidentSpanky
Actual, only Block C, Block B was already decommissioned in 2017
 
实际上，（那时停的）只是C机组，B机组早在2017年就已经停了。
 
 
DirtyLove937
Or buy oil from Russia.
 
怎么不去买俄罗斯石油啊
 
 
Kelmon80
Except Germany ended crude oil imports from Russia at the end of 2022 - unlike many other countries.
 
德国在2022年底就停止进口俄罗斯原油了——不像许多其他国家。
 
 
Prestigious-Shine240
and started buying Russian oil from India?
 
然后开始找印度买俄罗斯石油？
 
 
L3o11_20
Does anyone know HOW MUCH oil is imported from India? I have seen sources stating that in 2024 30% came from Norway, followed by 19% from the United States, and 17% from the Netherlands. Other significant suppliers included Kazakhstan (8%), the United Kingdom (6%), and Libya (6%).
What am I missing?
 
有人知道从印度进口的石油量有多大吗？我看到的资料显示，2024年30%来自挪威，其次是美国（19%）和荷兰（17%）。其他重要供应国包括哈萨克斯坦（8%）、英国（6%）和利比亚（6%）。我漏掉了什么信息吗？
 
 
m0j0m0j
Netherlands. Where are they buying it? Because i have A THEORY
Also… KAZAKHSTAN
 
荷兰？他们石油是从哪里弄的？好难猜啊~
还有……哈萨克斯坦。
 
 
TendyHunter
They refine their oil from tulips
 
他们的石油是从郁金香里提出来的。
 
————
 
gluefire
Coal use in Germany was never so low like it was in the years after the shutdown of the last reactors.
This is an argument made by people who don't now anything about german energy production and politics.
 
德国在关停最后一批核反应堆之后，煤炭使用量已降至历史最低水平。
只有对德国能源生产和政策一无所知的人，才会提出这种论点。
 
 
biaich
But it could have been even lower if the nuclear plants had been kept active acording to german energy scientists. I even common sense would tell you that.
 
可德国能源科学家说，如果核电站保持运行，煤炭使用量本可以进一步降低。有点常识好吗？
 
 
PresidentSpanky
 
which scientists are saying that? Would you really have had such a huge push to build out renewable energy and storage (actually, this location will host the largest storage unit in Europe)?
 
哪个科学家这么说过？如果没有（关停核能），德国真的会如此大力推动可再生能源和储能建设吗？（事实上，那里将建成欧洲最大的储能设施）
 
 
biaich
This one suggests a 73% extra decrese of carbon emissions flr the scenario where germany kept nuclear and instead dismantled, and stopped the new, coal plants lixed to the dismantling of nucler.
Thisgerman greenpeace scenario analysis also shows that carbon emissions from coal would have been lower if germany kept nuclear.
I’m pro renewables so sure build them. Energy storage is tricky though since it’s harder to store long term energy say for a week of bad weather.
But since germany at the time had both nuclear and Coal and renewables are a clear yes then the question is rather which should be shut down first? Not if renewables are bad. That you brought up yourself.
The problem is also that german remewables stand on coal, gas and destabilizating thier neighbors electricity that they are forced to export due to german driven EU law.
In that case germany would have to do what it does now and turn to fossil fuels like gas and coal. => super bad for health and environment.
And we haven’t even brought up the ukraine war that started 2014 and building dependency on russian gas. Imagine if all that northstream money and all those ad hoc liquified natrual fas terminals would have been spent on renewables instead?
Short story: I’m not anti renewables like you seem to think. I’m anti fossil fuels, unlike germanys energy policy.
 
有研究显示，若德国保留核能、转而拆除与核能淘汰相关联的新建煤电厂，碳排放本可额外减少73%。
这份德国绿色和平的情景分析同样表明，若保留核能，煤炭产生的碳排放本会更低。
我支持可再生能源，当然应该大力发展。但储能是个问题，毕竟难以长期储存能源以应对整周的恶劣天气。
对于你引入的议题，既然德国当时同时拥有核能、煤电和可再生能源，可问题在于应该先淘汰哪种能源？而不是质疑可再生能源。
问题还在于：德国可再生能源的发展依赖于煤电、天然气，以及因德国推动的欧盟法规而被迫出口电力的邻国电网的不稳定。
在这种情况下，德国将不得不像现在这样依赖天然气和煤炭等化石燃料——》对健康与环境极其有害。
我们甚至还没提2014年爆发的乌克兰战争以及（德国）对俄罗斯天然气的依赖。想想看，如果把投入北溪管道和临时液化天然气终端的巨额资金能用于可再生能源，会怎样？
简而言之：我并非如您所想反对可再生能源。我反对的是化石燃料，因为这与德国的能源政策不符。
 
 
Archsinner
how would diverting billions away from renewables to make necessary investments for nuclear power have reduced CO2 emissions?
 
将原本用于可再生能源的数十亿巨额资金转投核能，怎能反过来降低碳排放呢？
 
 
pichael288
Nuclear has the lowest CO2 output of anything, and once you build the reactor that's it. The amount of production and transportation and replacements involved in renewables will produce significantly more CO2 per energy equivalent. No one said they weren't a good idea but they can not even come close to comparing. It's not all that bad now but in the future nuclear will be the only viable option for ever growing energy needs, this is an accepted fact.
I don't know what Germany is doing or anything about them in particular, Im simply just answering the question as it pertains to general implementation. We are going to need nuclear energy eventually, hopefully fusion becomes viable soon.
 
核能的碳排放量是所有能源中最低的，而反应堆一旦建成，以后便一劳永逸。而可再生能源所需的生产、运输及设备更换，每单位能量所产生的碳排放远高于核能。没人否认可再生能源的价值，但其根本绝无法与核能相提并论。现阶段虽不明显，但随着能源需求持续增长，核能终将成为唯一可行方案，这是公认的事实。
我不了解德国具体政策，仅从普遍实施角度回答。我们最终都离不开核能，但愿核聚变能尽快实现应用。
 
 
biaich
Mainly you could instead have shut down those nasty and even costlier coal plants. The renewable investments could have come as well. The question was coal or nucler, which should you shut down first?
The fact is that nuclear is cheaper to run than even coal so keeping nuclear would have freed up more capital for renewables.
It’s not a zero sum game you know.. except för carbon emissions.
 
主要是你本可以先关停那些污染严重、成本更高的燃煤电厂。可再生能源的投资也完全可以同步进行。问题是 “煤电和核电，该先关哪一个”，而不是非此即彼。事实上，核电的运营成本比煤电还更低，保留核电本可以腾出更多资金投入可再生能源。这又不是零和游戏…除了碳排放这种事。
 
 
ObviouslyNotAUser
 
Because they're importing as much as possible from all other countries around them? It sure as hell was noticed up here in north when they shut down their reactors. They also convinetly are against setting up power price zones so they pay for what they're actually are using; source
 
难道不是因为他们在尽可能多地从周边所有国家进口电力吗？他们关停核反应堆的时候，我们北欧这边可是明显感觉到了。他们还故意反对设立电价分区，这样他们就能按实际用电量付费了。
 
 
green_flash
They also convinetly are against setting up power price zones so they pay for what they're actually are using
You are misinterpreting the article. It's about splitting the German power price zone into several, so that for example people in central and southern Germany pay higher power prices while people in northern Germany pay lower power prices.
 
“故意反对建立电价分区，这样他们就能按实际用电量付费“”
你没理解这篇文章。它讨论的是将德国电价区分割成多个区域，例如，让德国中部和南部居民支付更高的电价，而北部居民支付更低的电价。
 
 
panick21
This is such a dumb argument anti-nuclear people make. Sure, coal has gone down as well, but guess what, if you hadn't destroyed nuclear it would already be gone.
Prioritising one over the other is outright insane as a policy and killed many people and cost a huge amount of money in medical cost.
 
那帮反核人士的论点真是太蠢了。没错，煤炭用量也确实下降了，但你猜怎么着，如果当初没搞掉核电，煤电现在可能已经被彻底淘汰了。
作为一项政策，优先关停核电而非煤电，这是疯了吗？这会导致更多人死亡并耗费更高医疗成本。
 
 
gluefire
No, with nuclear plants still going we would have more coal use.
Nuclear energy needs to be sold cheap, sometimes even with a negative price when there is enough energy. Prices go up when there is high demand.
This shapes a market that is better for power production with controlled output. Coal is the cheapest method of generating power with a controlled output.
 
不对，如果核电站还在运行，煤炭使用量只会更高。核电必须低价出售，有时候能源充足时甚至会出现负电价；而能源需求高时，电价才会上涨。这就形成了一个更有利于发电可控出力的市场，而煤炭是发电可控出力中成本最低的方式。
（注： power production with controlled——术语，“发电可控出力：指的是发电厂能够根据电网的实时需求，主动、精确、快速地调节其电力输出功率的能力）
 
 
————
 
Oh_ffs_seriously
Funny that according to https://app.electricitymaps.com, Germany had 99% of its electricity provided by renewables today, and now it's night there, it fell down... to 88%.
 
有趣的是，据《全球实时电力数据服务》网数据，今日德国电力有99%来自可再生能源，而现在那边是夜晚，比例已经下降到……88%。
 
 
PhgAH
Wasn't that because they bought a fuck load of electricity from neighboring country, and their CO2 emission is still highest in the EU
I remember one of my Swedish friend ranting about his electricity bill almost double because Germany used a lot of their grid. But I dont know much about how the grid work there
 
难不是因为他们从邻国购买了海量电力吗？而且他们的二氧化碳排放量在欧盟里还是最高的。我记得我一个瑞典朋友发的牢骚，因为德国大量占用他们电力，导致他的电费几乎翻倍。不过我不太了解那边的电网运作方式。
 
 
MrBandoola
Yes exactly. Here in Sweden we could basically power the entire country for dirt cheap. But we have this deal with Germany that we have to export to them and then buy it at the same price they do.
 
是的，完全正确。在我们瑞典，我们基本上可以用极其低廉的成本为全国供电。但我们与德国有协议，必须向他们出口电力，然后再以与他们相同的电价给买回来。
 
 
PhgAH
Damn, forcing your own citizen to buy at the export rate is some weird ass law, lol.
 
好家伙，逼迫本国公民以出口价买电，这法律也太奇葩了吧，哈哈。
 
 
Wrandrall
That's just what naturally happens when you remove tariffs, that goes for any product.
Swedish power companies do benefit from this though, as they then need less state subsidies to be profitable. At the end of the day it's still an influx of money toward Sweden, the devil is just in the details of how the cost of electricity is actually distributed, to minimise the impact on (or even benefit) resident consumers.
 
取消关税后自然就会发生这种情况，任何产品都是如此。
不过，瑞典电力公司确实从中受益，因为它们需要较少的国家补贴就能实现盈利。归根结底，钱还会流向瑞典，问题关键在于电力成本的实际分配方式，以尽量减少对居民消费者的影响（甚至让他们受益）。
 
 
panick21
So much this.
And of course for France, what people always ignore is that CO2 saved in 1980 had a much, much better impact on climate then CO2 save now.
 
说得太对了。
当然，对于法国，人们总是忽略一点， 1980年减少的碳排放对气候的影响，远比现在减少的碳排放影响要大得多。
 
 
BlackBlizzard
So wasteful and a bad decision to remove all your power plants.
 
反正拆除所有发电站，真是你们浪费又糟糕的决定。