日本的高昂定价已迫使印度就孟买-艾哈迈达巴德高铁项目与欧洲公司进行谈判

**ChatGPT generated summary:**
The article discusses how **India’s Mumbai–Ahmedabad High-Speed Rail (HSR) project**, launched a decade ago with **₹98,000 crore funding** (80% from Japan), is facing **delays and cost issues** mainly because of Japan’s **rigid pricing stance**.
# Key Points:
1. **Background**
* The HSR project began under PM Modi with funding from Japan’s JICA.
* It was meant to bring Japan’s Shinkansen (bullet train) technology to India.
* The project aimed to modernize transport and reduce travel time between cities.
2. **Problems and Delays**
* Land acquisition and political changes in Maharashtra caused early delays.
* Japan quoted **very high prices** for trains and signalling systems and refused to negotiate.
* Civil works were further delayed due to **COVID** and **supply issues** with tunnel-boring machines from China.
3. **India’s Response**
* India (Indian Railways) is now considering **European firms** for train and signalling contracts to reduce costs.
* A **Siemens–DRA Infracon** system is expected to be ready by **2029** at a much lower cost than Japan’s offer.
* India also plans to develop **its own 250 kmph indigenous HSR** system by **2027–28**.
4. **Future Plans**
* India aims to build **7,000 km of dedicated passenger corridors by 2047**, using mostly **indigenous technology**.
* The government hopes this move will strengthen India’s self-reliance and make HSR expansion more practical.
# Conclusion
Japan’s expensive terms have forced India to look towards **European and domestic alternatives**.
The **Mumbai–Ahmedabad project** remains crucial, but India’s new strategy may be more **cost-effective and realistic** for long-term progress.
 
（帖子原文）
**ChatGPT 生成的摘要：**
文章讨论了**印度的孟买-艾哈迈达巴德高铁（HSR）项目**。该项目于十年前启动，获得了 **98,000 亿卢比**的资金（其中80%来自日本），但目前正面临**延误和成本问题**，主要原因是日本**僵化的定价立场**。
# 关键要点：
1. **项目背景**
* 高铁项目在莫迪总理任内启动，由日本国际协力机构（JICA）提供资金。
* 项目旨在将日本的新干线（子弹头列车）技术引入印度。
* 项目目标是实现交通现代化，并缩短城市间的旅行时间。
2. **问题与延误**
* 马哈拉施特拉邦的土地征用和政局变动导致了项目初期的延误。
* 日本为列车和信号系统报出了**极高的价格**，并拒绝谈判。
* 由于**新冠疫情**以及来自中国的隧道掘进机**供应问题**，土木工程被进一步推迟。
3. **印度的应对**
* 印度（印度铁路）目前正考虑将列车和信号系统合同授予**欧洲公司**，以降低成本。
* **西门子-DRA Infracon** 联合体提供的系统预计将于 **2029** 年准备就绪，其成本远低于日本的报价。
* 印度还计划在 **2027-28** 年前开发**自主的 250 公里/小时国产高铁**系统。
4. **未来规划**
* 印度的目标是到 **2047** 年建成 **7,000 公里**的客运专用走廊，主要采用**本土技术**。
* 政府希望此举能加强印度的自给自足能力，并使高铁的扩张更加现实可行。
# 结论
日本昂贵的条款已迫使印度转向**欧洲和国内的替代方案**。
**孟买-艾哈迈达巴德项目**依然至关重要，但从长远发展来看，印度的新战略可能更具**成本效益和现实意义**。
 
评论：
 
usagikuro99
likes: 42
So we are building our own HSR trainsets? By 2027? If we could create an HSR in 2 years what was stopping us so far?
 
所以说，我们要在2027年之前造出自己的高铁列车？要是我们真能在两年内搞定高铁，那之前又是什么在阻碍我们呢？
 
Affectionate_Oil6912
likes: 15
Signalling system
 
是信号系统的问题。
 
usagikuro99
likes: 11
And we are buying the signalling systems from Europe. Is it easier to build trains than the signalling system? I don't mean it in a sarcastic way, but it seems counter intuitive.
 
但信号系统我们也是从欧洲买的。难道造列车比造信号系统还容易吗？我不是在讽刺，但这听起来确实有点反直觉。
 
Affectionate_Oil6912
likes: 13
from what I think Government will try for reverse engineering, technology transfer and FDI
We are already at Semi HSR and if target speeds are 250 kmph then it is going to be relatively easier
 
依我看来，政府会尝试逆向工程、技术转让和吸引外国直接投资。
我们已经有了半高铁，如果目标时速只是250公里，那实现起来会相对容易一些。
 
LeatherClassic4506
likes: 9
Yes. Modern ERTMS Signaling is actually notoriously difficult to develop
 
是的。现代的ERTMS信号系统是出了名的难开发。
 
ranixon
likes: 2
And the ERTMS is designed to be neutral between different manufacturers, you can use with any train that you like
 
而且ERTMS的设计初衷就是为了兼容不同制造商，你可以把它用在任何你喜欢的列车上。
 
loosukudhi
likes: 1
They are also cooking Kavach 5.0. So there is that too..
 
他们也正在研发“Kavach 5.0”系统，所以这也是一个方面。
 
Puzzleheaded_Roof872
likes: 22
It's common negotiations nothing to worry about.
It's not like we are stopping our hsr construction. It's a good thing these negotiations are happening early, so that there are no delays in final stages
 
这只是普通的商业谈判，没什么好担心的。
我们又没有停掉高铁建设。这些谈判能提早进行是件好事，这样可以避免项目在最后阶段出现延误。
 
Proud_Bake9949
likes: 4
We are in the final stages though
 
但问题是，我们已经到最后阶段了。
 
chitrapuyuga
likes: 37
It is going in the same way as Delhi Metro Project and the expressways project. The first project takes decades to build. But the subsequent ones are built in a decade. So perhaps the government is trying to figure the best way forward for this project and the other ones.
I truly these high speed corridors are the potential future solutions to our current Indian railways train overcrowding problem. These high speed corridors bring connectivity with speed to numerous places where airports are not feasible.
 
这个项目的进展和德里地铁以及高速公路项目很像。第一个项目总是要花上几十年才建成，但后续的项目十年内就能搞定。所以，政府可能正在为这个项目以及未来的其他项目探索最佳的前进道路。
我真心认为，这些高速走廊是解决当前印度铁路列车过度拥挤问题的潜在未来方案。它们能为许多不适合建机场的地方带来高速连接。
 
WashOk513
likes: 18
True ,i too feel the same ,, the mistakes which are faced in this Mumbai Ahmedabad HSR are learnings and upcoming corridors are easily finished from start to finish within 4-5 years
 
确实，我也有同感。孟买-艾哈迈达巴德高铁项目遇到的挫折都是宝贵的经验，未来的新线路很可能在4-5年内就能顺利完工。
 
Its_me_astr
likes: 7
Avg metro is taking 6-10 years no way we will complete such highcost and lengthy project in 5
 
一条普通的地铁线平均都要6-10年，我们不可能在5年内完成这样一个成本高昂又工期漫长的项目。
 
Sherlock_Me
likes: 11
Great article. I think the other lines ought to be delayed at least until we finish and run one section. This process has paid great dividend for Kochi Metro where the centre was adamant they would only give approval for second phase after a small portion of first phase which was to be developed by KMRL without DMRC help was finished. Now that they were forced to learn how to get shit done the next stage and also Water Metro has been going smoothly with the expertise gained from that small section.
Though when DMRC left the construction process of Phase 1 incomplete I feared the worst, that has become an advantage for the whole state. Ones babus put their mind to it they are actually not bad(at least the ones in Kerala).
 
很棒的文章。我认为其他线路至少应该推迟，直到我们完成并运营一部分再说。这个流程在高知地铁项目上收到了很好的效果，当时中央政府坚持，只有在KMRL（高知地铁有限公司）独立完成一小部分一期工程后，他们才会批准二期。现在，他们被迫学会了如何把事情搞定，后续阶段以及水上地铁项目都因为那段经历积累了专业知识而进展顺利。
虽然当DMRC（德里地铁公司）留下一期工程的烂摊子时我曾担心过最坏的情况，但这反而成了整个邦的优势。一旦那些官员们下定决心，他们其实干得不赖（至少喀拉拉邦的官员是这样）。
 
WashOk513
likes: 2
Seems like you are from Kerala ,, is silver line semi HSR is happening or not ?
 
看来你来自喀拉拉邦，那里的“银线”半高铁项目还在进行吗？
 
Sherlock_Me
likes: 5
As always with every project in Kerala the problem nos. 1, 2 and 3 are land acquisition. Rest of the issues start only later.
I think we need 2 more governments to pass before the project is started and 5 more years after that for completion. I expect target of 2036-41 for K rail.
The one brilliant thing PV government has done is that they have published the alignment online. And all land mutation/tax payment in the proposed alignment is done with the caveat that K Rail is happening in this land. Hence land selling has considerably reduced in the project area. People are pissed but its the only way this can be done.
 
跟喀拉拉邦的所有项目一样，排名前三的难题永远是土地征用。其他问题都是之后的事了。
我认为这个项目可能需要再换两届政府才能启动，启动后再过5年才能完工。我预计“K-Rail”（喀拉拉邦铁路）的目标是2036-41年。
不过现任政府做了一件很聪明的事：他们在线公布了线路规划。所有规划路线上的土地变更/税务缴纳都附带一个警告，即这块土地上将修建K-Rail。因此，项目区域的土地交易大幅减少。民众很不满，但这是唯一能推进项目的方法。
 
WashOk513
likes: 1
If the silver line is constructed it would be top most infrastructure project in the history of Kerala ,,, seems like Kerala congress and bjp have turned this into political issue,, other project pending for decades is 3 and 4 railway line in Kerala ,, this would also reduce congestion/burden on railways in kerala
 
如果“银线”建成，它将成为喀拉拉邦历史上最重要的基建项目。但看起来国大党和人民党已经把这事变成了政治议题。另一个拖了几十年的项目是喀拉拉邦的第三和第四条铁路线，这个项目也能减轻邦内铁路的拥堵和负担。
 
Sherlock_Me
likes: 3
Yep everybody knows the project is beneficial to Kerala but parties are acting like crabs in a bucket. When the earmarking for the project was done there was a big protest by which the opposition was pulling the yellow survey stones out. Though it does nothing to the land in paper they made a show of it. No way its coming if UDF is in power I fear. Or may be they will pull an LDF, while they opposed the expressway project, it was actually LDF who started the Nh66 semi access controlled high way. So lets see.
 
是的，所有人都知道这个项目对喀拉拉邦有好处，但各个政党就像桶里的螃蟹一样互相掣肘。当初为项目划定界线时，反对派搞了一场大抗议，把黄色的勘测界石都拔了出来。虽然这在法律文件上没什么影响，但他们就是要做做样子。我担心如果UDF（联合民主阵线）上台，这项目就没戏了。或者他们也可能像LDF（左翼民主阵线）一样反转，LDF当初反对高速公路项目，但后来却是他们启动了NH66号半封闭高速公路。所以，走着瞧吧。
 
despod
likes: 2
25-35 years. That is the average time taken for any project in Kerala. I expect an HSR to start construction by 2050.
 
25-35年。这是喀拉拉邦任何项目所需的平均时间。我预计高铁要到2050年才开始建设。
 
CodyBancs
likes: 5
Most of the countries don't have elevated HSR like us right ? This might have increased costs considerably
 
大多数国家没有像我们这样采用高架高铁吧？这可能导致成本大幅增加。
 
Mr_Infinity1205
likes: 20
Actually China does have a lot of elevated HSR tracks while most of the japanese HSR tracks are on ground.
And the elevated HSR track actually reduces the cost as govt needs to acquire less land ( because if tracks were on ground you need more land to properly fence).
This is just a case of japanese charging more for their equipment. Read somewhere japan was providing signalling equipment at 40000 cr while some European firm providing it for 4000 cr ( at 1/10th the price )
 
其实中国有很多高架高铁线路，而日本的高铁大多在地面上。
而且高架轨道实际上降低了成本，因为政府需要征用的土地更少（如果轨道在地面，你需要更多土地来做合适的围栏）。
这事纯粹是日本人为他们的设备开高价。我在哪看到过，日本提供的信号设备要价4000亿卢比，而一家欧洲公司只要400亿卢比（十分之一的价格）。
 
plant_gen
likes: 6
Wtf 10 times costly?, is that Siemens from EU?
 
搞什么鬼，贵10倍？是欧盟的西门子吗？
 
plant_gen
likes: 2
Are there any plans for own signalling system?
 
我们有计划搞自己的信号系统吗？
 
Mr_Infinity1205
likes: 2
I don't think so
 
我不这么认为。
 
DeepanJain
likes: 3
Land is cheap, most rural areas you will find land for 10-20 lakhs per acre. A pillar for HSR costs probably more than a crore a piece.
 
土地很便宜，大多数农村地区一英亩地也就10-20万卢比。而高铁的一个桥墩可能就要花费超过一千万卢比。
 
Mr_Infinity1205
likes: 6
Well we will never know the actual cost of land acquisition or a pillar but the general thinking is that less land to acquire , lesser cost to incur and less delays.
 
嗯，我们永远不会知道征地或桥墩的实际成本，但普遍的看法是，征地越少，成本越低，延误也越少。
 
DeepanJain
likes: 6
Land acquisition doesn’t increase cost by a lot since most tracks will be in rural areas, the main problem is the acquisition, it’s difficult for a farmer to sell off 100% of his land but won’t think much of it was only 10% , the main problem is also the legal trouble since India is a democracy, every citizen had the right to fair and just treatment in the eyes of the law, acquisition battles usually go on for 3-4 years in courts.
 
征地并不会大幅增加成本，因为大部分轨道都在农村地区。主要问题在于征地过程本身。让一个农民卖掉他100%的土地很难，但如果只征用10%，他就不会太在意。另一个主要问题是法律纠纷，因为印度是民主国家，每个公民在法律面前都有权获得公平公正的对待，征地官司通常要在法庭上打3-4年。
 
Neat_Papaya900
likes: 2
More than the percentage of land, it will often divide farmland and not provide access, since the person will not be able to cross the fully fenced off train line.
 
比起征用土地的百分比，更大的问题是它常常会把农田一分为二，并且不提供通道，导致人们无法穿过全封闭的铁路线。
 
transitfreedom
likes: 1
Just ask the Americans
 
去问问美国人就知道了。
 
vishnu_021
likes: 1
Not if there's government project running through it.
Atp it's a sellers market not buyers.
 
如果是有政府项目经过，那情况就不一样了。
到那时候，就变成卖方市场，而不是买方市场。
 
JesusBurnedMe
likes: 1
would trust japanese over european tbh. they’ve been doing it the longest
 
说实话，比起欧洲人我更信赖日本人，他们做这个最久了。
 
Westoid_Hunter
likes: 1
Europe always had HSR too, might not be fastest but fast enough
 
欧洲也一直有高铁，可能不是最快的，但已经足够快了。
 
ummHMM-x
likes: 15
We can't have a non elevated HSR. Civic sense like ours there would be shit and cattle on the tracks if not elevated.
Back in delhi people have been breaking sound dampeners on the new dwarka expressway for some reason
 
我们不可能建非高架的高铁。以我们的公民素质，如果不架高，铁轨上肯定都是屎和牛。
在德里那边，不知道为什么，总有人在破坏新德瓦卡高速公路上的隔音墙。
 
ProperTurnover6074
likes: 3
Who said? Except Europe HSR in Japan, China, Taiwan & now Indonesia are mostly elevated. Some Chinese HSR routes still uses Ballast, while MAHSR uses Ballastless & Latest Track Bed & fastening typology in the whole corridor, these makes its more costly but able to support 400km/h speeds.
 
谁说的？除了欧洲，日本、中国、台湾（地区）以及现在的印度尼西亚的高铁大多是高架的。一些中国高铁线路仍在使用有砟轨道，而MAHSR（孟买-艾哈迈达巴德高铁）全线采用的是无砟轨道和最新的道床与扣件类型，这使得它成本更高，但能支持400公里/小时的速度。
 
Shroccer
likes: 5
Alstom already has manufacturing facilities in india for metro trainsets. They have the know-how to built high speed sets as well - their avelia series is being used as the new TGV in france and the new acela in the USA.
Perhaps the same trains could also be manufactured (or assembled) and used in India too.
Btw many shinkansen trains also run at 250. It'd still be an HSR.
 
阿尔斯通在印度已经有生产地铁列车的工厂了。他们也掌握了制造高速列车的技术——他们的Avelia系列正被用作法国的新TGV和美国的新Acela列车。
也许同款列车也可以在印度制造（或组装）并使用。
顺便说一句，很多新干线列车的时速也是250公里，那也仍然是高铁。
 
handmegun
likes: 7
This is why it's important to invest in R&D and own human resource, idhar se ye mil jaye udhar se wo mil jaye..
 
这就是为什么投资研发和自有的人力资源很重要，而不是总想着“从这边搞点，从那边拿点”。
 
ProperTurnover6074
likes: 11
This not 1970s anymore that everything can happen from scratch and if it can happen it will take 40-50 years to polish it. We are just going China steps where technology & experience is learned and then implement for our case, China also used ETCS, German & Japanese derived Trainsets in early 2000s, over the 20 years they just learned how to built it on own.
BEML is doing same it is not doing everything from scratch, rather partnering with European companies which is obvious. When you have already established things it will be stupid to expect "Nah I'mma do my own things i dont need anyone's help".
 
现在已经不是1970年代了，不可能什么都从零开始，就算能，也要花40-50年去打磨。我们只是在走中国的老路：先学习技术和经验，然后应用到我们自己的情况上。中国在21世纪初也使用了欧洲的ETCS、德国和日本的列车组，经过20年，他们才学会了如何自己制造。
BEML（印度巴拉特土方机械公司）也在做同样的事，它不是从零开始，而是和欧洲公司合作，这很正常。当已经有现成的东西时，还想着“不，我要自己搞，我不需要任何人的帮助”，那才是愚蠢的。
 
JshBld
likes: 3
Bruh but the E5 hayabusa is like the coolest look train of all time, maybe ask China for bullet trains like Indonesia did?
 
哥们，但E5系隼鸟号可是有史以来最酷的列车啊。或许可以像印尼一样，向中国购买子弹头列车？
 
WashOk513
likes: 4
No this would be ego clash for indian government
 
不，那样会伤到印度政府的自尊心。
 
jussayingthings
likes: 4
Why will India take Bullet train from China? Japan will reduce price once we start deal wtih Europe
 
印度为什么要买中国的高铁？一旦我们开始和欧洲谈，日本就会降价的。
 
JshBld
likes: 3
Dont make no sense why india cant afford it bruh india has larger economy than japan bruvvvv
 
没道理啊，为啥印度买不起？哥们，印度的经济体量比日本还大啊。
 
No-Share6861
likes: 3
If India wants to reverse engineer high speed trains, I won’t think that ‘s possible. Having learnt the lesson in China, Siemens or Alstom will not make such a mistake again. Just look at China ‘s new high speed trains, they say it ‘s independently developed, but to be honest, their interiors inherited the Siemens design & still do!
 
如果印度想逆向工程高速列车，我认为那是不可能的。吸取了在中国的教训后，西门子或阿尔斯通不会再犯同样的错误。看看中国的新高铁，他们说是自主研发，但老实说，内饰设计还是继承了西门子的风格，至今如此！
 
Any-Explanation-4584
likes: 6
So no shinkensan ?
I trust Japanese expertise quality more than Indian and European
 
所以，没有新干线了？
相比印度和欧洲，我更相信日本的专业技术和质量。
 
Bazzingatime
likes: 8
Afaik it's for the signalling , trainsets are gonna be Shinkansen till we get a clear cut announcement.
 
据我所知，这只是针对信号系统，在有明确的官方声明之前，列车应该还是用新干线。
 
No-Share6861
likes: 2
What ‘s so bad about European? The Japanese do admire European high speed trains if not why would they purchase a once struggling European manufacturer and give it a new lease of life?
 
欧洲的有什么不好？日本人自己也很欣赏欧洲的高铁，不然他们为什么要收购一家曾经陷入困境的欧洲制造商，并让它重获新生呢？
 
PelvisBhai69
likes: 3
So we aren't getting full 320km/h speed trains even after all the delays
 
所以，拖延了这么久，我们还是用不上时速320公里的全速列车。
 
slipnips
likes: 1
Are the tunnel boring machines being used in hills? Are there hills on this route?
 
隧道掘进机是用在山区吗？这条线路上有山？
 
Westoid_Hunter
likes: 3
there's literally an under-sea tunnel in Mumbai bro, Maharashtra HSR part is rather more complex
 
哥们，孟买那段可是有海底隧道的，马哈拉施特拉邦的高铁部分要复杂得多。
 
WashOk513
likes: 1
Yes tunnel boring machines used in hsr underground station, yes some hills along in mumbai - ahmedabad hsr
 
是的，隧道掘进机用在了高铁的地下车站。而且，孟买到艾哈迈达巴德沿线确实有一些丘陵地带。
 
vishnu_021
likes: 1
Yeah i feel a major coxk up coming our way
 
是啊，我感觉要有大麻烦了。
 
PubliusMaximusCaesar
likes: 0
Our HSR has been such a disaster
But babus are not satisfied, they want to ruin it even harder!
 
我们的高铁项目已经是个灾难了。
但那些官老爷们还不满意，他们想把它搞得更砸！
 
Dense-Spare-4878
likes: 15
Even Taiwan adopted the same system:-Japanese train and European signalling system. Please stop being so negative about everything in existence.
 
就连台湾（地区）也采用了一样的系统：日本的列车配欧洲的信号系统。拜托别对所有事情都这么悲观。
 
PubliusMaximusCaesar
likes: -5
Taiwan has japanese train, and euro signalling.
Here we are going for European trains and signalling, and also indian trains and also japanese trains
It's a pure khichdi cooked up by 200IQ bureaucratic mind.
 
台湾（地区）是日本的列车配欧洲的信号系统。
而我们这里，要用欧洲的列车和信号，还要用印度的列车，还要用日本的列车。
这纯粹是那帮自作聪明的官僚们搞出来的一锅大杂烩。
 
Dense-Spare-4878
likes: 6
Looks like you forgot to read the post properly. Read that again and see it's clearly written that India is going for the European signalling system and Japanese trains, not the vice-versa.
Also about your second statement about some "khichdi". China used German ice trains when their HSR journey started in 2008. Now they have their own bullet trains and the largest HSR system from anywhere in the world.
Trust the process!!
Edit:- I am a bit wrong, China actually used their own train on their first HSR route. They later imported some foreign trains.
 
看来你没仔细看帖子。再读一遍，上面清楚地写着印度要用欧洲的信号系统和日本的列车，不是反过来。
另外，关于你说的“大杂烩”，中国在2008年开始高铁之旅时也用了德国的ICE列车。现在他们有了自己的子弹头列车和全世界最大的高铁网络。
要相信这个过程！！
编辑：我有点说错了，中国在第一条高铁线路上其实用的是自己的列车，后来才进口了一些国外列车。
 
WashOk513
likes: 2
But I feel it's too soon to come to conclusions,, we have to wait for 1.5 to 2 years to see the potential
 
但我觉得现在下结论还为时过早，我们得等上一两年才能看到潜力。