纵观全球历史,古代游牧民族最大的对手是谁?在对抗游牧民族过程中谁表现最佳?
Who know world history, Chinese history, or European history? Throughout history, who were the biggest enemies of nomadic peoples? Who performed best against nomads?
译文简介
网友:游牧民族历史上最大的对手无疑是古代中国人,而非欧洲人。
正文翻译


Fontaine
Throughout history, the biggest enemy of nomadic peoples has undoubtedly been the ancient Chinese, not the Europeans.
游牧民族历史上最大的对手无疑是古代中国人,而非欧洲人。
(Of course, geographical factors also dictate that Europe could not produce as many nomadic peoples as Asia.)
(当然,地理因素也决定了欧洲无法像亚洲那样产生大量游牧民族。)
If you were to ask who has been the most effective and successful in war with nomadic peoples, it would undoubtedly be the ancient Chinese.
如果你要问谁在对抗游牧民族的战争中最为有效和成功,那毫无疑问是古代中国人。
Throughout thousands of years of history, as long as the Chinese dynasty itself was not in serious internal turmoil, nomadic peoples had virtually no chance and would surrender to the Chinese dynasty. However, when the Chinese dynasty was in serious internal turmoil, some nomadic tribes previously ruled by China would seize the opportunity to rise up and establish regimes in certain parts of China.
几千年来,只要中原王朝自身没有陷入严重的内乱,游牧民族几乎毫无胜算,最终都会向中原王朝臣服。然而,当中原王朝陷入严重内部动荡时,一些此前受中国统治的游牧部落便会趁机崛起,并在中国部分地区建立政权。
Of course, the only nomadic people who truly succeeded in conquering China were the Mongols (the Manchus were not nomadic), but even at their peak, the Mongols faced immense difficulties against the Chinese dynasty. It took them nearly half a century to conquer the Southern Song Dynasty, which covered only 1.8 million square kilometers. (This isn't even the peak of the Song Dynasty.)
当然,真正成功征服全中国的游牧民族只有蒙古人(满洲人并不属于游牧民族),但即便在其巅峰时期,蒙古人面对中原王朝也遭遇了巨大困难。他们花了将近半个世纪才征服仅拥有180万平方公里领土的南宋。(这甚至还不是宋朝最强盛时期的版图。)
For thousands of years, various nomadic peoples waged countless wars against various Chinese dynasties. This, of course, was also an inevitable consequence of geopolitical forces. Here's a map of China. We can see that, aside from traditional Han Chinese areas like Inner Mongolia, Central Asia, and Tibet, everything is a desolate Gobi desert or grassland.
数千年来,各游牧民族与各个中原王朝之间爆发了无数次战争。这当然也是地缘政治力量不可避免的结果。这里有一张中国地图,我们可以看到,除了传统的汉族地区外,像内蒙古、中亚和西藏等地区,大多是荒凉的戈壁沙漠或草原。
Nomadic peoples, of course, originated from the grasslands. They were generally considered barbaric in both Europe and Asia. Due to their harsh living conditions, they were relatively backward and poor. Therefore, across Eurasia, they chose to invade and plunder settled civilizations; otherwise, with their backward nomadic civilizations, it would be difficult for them to survive.
游牧民族自然起源于草原地带。他们在欧洲和亚洲都被视为“蛮族”。由于生存环境恶劣,他们的社会发展相对落后且贫困。因此在整个欧亚大陆,他们选择入侵和掠夺定居文明,否则仅靠落后的游牧经济,很难维持生存。
Europe's wars with nomadic peoples were obviously not as numerous as those in China. Moreover, many powerful nomadic empires originated in Asia, not Europe.
For example, genetic testing has confirmed that Attila the Hun's ancestors were Huns from the East, who fled to the West after losing a war against Han China.
欧洲与游牧民族之间的战争显然没有中国那么频繁。此外,许多强大的游牧帝国都起源于亚洲,而非欧洲。
例如,基因检测已证实,阿提拉·匈奴的祖先正是来自东方的匈奴人,他们在被汉朝击败后逃往西方。
For example, the Ottoman Turks, who conquered the Roman Empire, also originated from nomadic tribes in Asia. Of course, the most famous and powerful were the Mongols, the only nomadic empire to achieve great success in both Europe and Asia. (The xiongnu and Turks were both defeated by Chinese dynasties, while the Mongols conquered the Song Dynasty; this is the key difference.)
再如,征服罗马帝国的奥斯曼土耳其人,也源自亚洲的游牧部落。当然,最著名且最强大的是蒙古人——唯一一个在欧洲和亚洲都取得巨大成功的游牧帝国。(匈奴和突厥均被中原王朝击败,而蒙古人则征服了宋朝;这是关键区别。)
China first truly unified during the Qin Dynasty (Zhou Dynasty China was more like the Holy Roman Empire, with many states enjoying a high degree of autonomy, though the Zhou Dynasty's royal family was nominally supreme).
中国首次真正统一是在秦朝(周朝时期的中国更像神圣罗马帝国,众多诸侯国享有高度自治权,尽管周王室名义上为最高统治者)。
Coincidentally, the first truly centralized nomadic empire in human history emerged from the steppes during this period: the xiongnu. They frequently harassed China's border regions. Qin Shihuang ordered General Meng Tian to proactively attack and defeat the xiongnu army, leading to the Chinese annexation and rule of part of present-day Mongolia (Ordos). It was also around this time that the Chinese began constructing the Great Wall. (The Great Wall served multiple functions, including logistics, offense, and defense, making it an excellent bridgehead for war.)
巧合的是,人类历史上第一个真正中央集权的游牧帝国也正是在此时期从草原上兴起的——即匈奴。他们频繁骚扰中国的边境地区。秦始皇命令大将蒙恬主动出击,击败匈奴军队,并将今日蒙古部分地区(鄂尔多斯)纳入中国版图。也正是在此时,中国人开始修建长城。(长城具有多种功能,包括后勤、进攻和防御,是战争中的优良桥头堡。)
Although the Qin Dynasty truly unified China for the first time, it was a short-lived dynasty, fading in less than 20 years. At this time, the Han Dynasty emerged (the dynasty that truly established the Chinese people's national identity). After decades of war, China was once again in a state of disarray. The xiongnu, however, returned, and Maodun Chanyu led his army to besiege the vanguard of several thousand men led by Liu Bang, the founding emperor of the Han Dynasty. The siege lasted seven days and seven nights, but the xiongnu could not find a better solution, and the Chinese felt that the newly established dynasty was not suitable for large-scale warfare. The two sides ultimately signed a peace treaty. By the time of Emperor Wu of Han, China had enjoyed several generations of recuperation and its national strength had recovered. The Han Dynasty decisively chose to launch a large-scale invasion of the steppes. After decades of warfare, the xiongnu were completely defeated. The Southern xiongnu voluntarily surrendered to the Chinese, while the Northern xiongnu were pursued and massacred by the Han army, with some fleeing to Europe. (Attila's ancestors were these xiongnu.)
虽然秦朝首次真正统一了中国,但它是一个短命王朝,不到20年便覆灭。随后汉朝崛起(这个王朝真正奠定了中华民族的民族认同)。经过几十年战乱,中国再次陷入混乱。匈奴卷土重来,冒顿单于率军围困了汉高祖刘邦率领的数千前锋部队,围困长达七天七夜。但匈奴未能找到更好的解决办法,而汉朝也认为新建立的王朝不宜大规模开战,双方最终签订和平条约。到了汉武帝时期,中国经历了几代人的休养生息,国力恢复。汉朝果断决定大规模入侵草原。经过数十年战争,匈奴被彻底击败。南匈奴自愿归降中国,北匈奴则遭到汉军追击和屠杀,部分残余逃往欧洲。(阿提拉的祖先就是这些北匈奴人。)
At the end of the Han Dynasty, China was divided into three kingdoms. Cao Wei held the greatest power, but it was eventually seized by the powerful Sima clan. The Sima clan established the Jin Dynasty, but this dynasty was deeply embroiled in internal strife, leading to the historic Eight Kings Rebellion (a civil war among eight members of the imperial family), which led to widespread chaos and a sharp decline in population. As I've mentioned, during this period of intense civil war in China, some nomadic peoples seized the opportunity to rise up and establish local regimes within China. These were the famous Five Barbarians. Of course, many of these barbarians originally lived within the Great Wall, having previously been subject to China. They seized the opportunity presented by the civil unrest to rise up and establish their own regimes.
东汉末年,中国分裂为三国。曹魏势力最强,但最终被强大的司马家族篡权。司马家族建立晋朝,但该王朝深陷内斗,导致历史上著名的“八王之乱”(八位皇族成员之间的内战),引发全国大乱,人口锐减。正如我所提到的,在中国陷入如此严重的内战之际,一些游牧民族趁机崛起,在中国境内建立地方政权。这就是著名的“五胡”。当然,这些“胡人”中许多人原本就居住在长城以内,曾是中国的臣民。他们趁乱起事,建立自己的政权。
China then fell into the famous Southern and Northern Dynasties (with the south generally ruled by Chinese, the north by barbarians), a period of chaos and division that lasted for hundreds of years.
Eventually, Yang Jian, a Han Chinese general serving the Northern Dynasty, successfully usurped power from the xianbei and reunited China.
At this time, the second powerful and large nomadic empire emerged on the steppes: the Turks. Yang Jian was a great general and emperor. Through a combination of warfare and conspiracy, he successfully defeated the Turkic Khanate, splitting it into two. The Eastern Turkic Khanate submitted to China, proclaiming the Chinese emperor the "Sage Khan," while the Western Turkic Khanate remained hostile.
The Sui Dynasty was also short-lived, lasting just over 30 years, before the Tang Dynasty successfully destroyed it.
中国随后进入著名的南北朝时期(南方一般由汉人统治,北方由“蛮族”统治),这是一个持续数百年的混乱与分裂时代。
最终,原为北朝效力的汉人将军杨坚成功从鲜卑人手中夺取政权,重新统一中国。
此时,草原上出现了第二个强大而庞大的游牧帝国——突厥。杨坚是一位杰出的将领和皇帝。他通过战争与谋略相结合的方式,成功击败突厥汗国,并将其分裂为东西两部。东突厥汗国向中国臣服,尊称中国皇帝为“圣人可汗”,而西突厥汗国则保持敌对态度。
隋朝也是短命王朝,仅存在三十多年,便被唐朝所灭。
The Tang Dynasty was far more successful than the Sui Dynasty. Although they were subject to China during the Sui Dynasty, as the Sui Dynasty weakened, both the Eastern and Western Turkic Khanates became enemies of the Tang Dynasty.
The Tang Dynasty was significantly more powerful than the Sui Dynasty (generally considered China's second golden age after the Han Dynasty). Both the Eastern and Western Turkic Khanates, as well as the Xueyantuo Khanate, were defeated and destroyed by the Tang Dynasty. At its peak, virtually all Turkic peoples submitted to and were ruled by the Tang Dynasty.
Although there were rebellions, they were ultimately suppressed by the Tang Dynasty. At its peak, the Tang Dynasty's territory was immense, encompassing nearly 12-14 million square kilometers. The entire steppes were part of China's sphere of influence. The Khitans and Jurchens, for example, were also Chinese vassals. However, the mid-Tang dynasty experienced the famous An-Shi Rebellion, which led to severe civil war.
By this point, the Tang dynasty's internal control was far less robust than at its peak, and China entered the renowned Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period. The Khitans and Jurchens, once subject to China, seized the opportunity to establish various regimes in northern China, including the Liao and Jin dynasties.
唐朝远比隋朝成功。尽管突厥在隋朝时曾臣服于中国,但随着隋朝衰落,东西突厥汗国都转而成为唐朝的敌人。
唐朝的实力远超隋朝(通常被认为是中国继汉朝之后的第二个黄金时代)。无论是东突厥、西突厥,还是薛延陀汗国,最终都被唐朝击败并摧毁。在其鼎盛时期,几乎所有突厥民族都向唐朝臣服并受其统治。
尽管期间发生过叛乱,但最终都被唐朝镇压。唐朝极盛时疆域辽阔,接近1200万至1400万平方公里。整个草原地带都处于中国的势力范围之内。契丹人和女真人等民族也都是中国的藩属。然而,中唐时期爆发了著名的“安史之乱”,引发严重内战。
至此,唐朝对内部的控制力已远不如鼎盛时期,中国进入著名的“五代十国”时期。曾经臣服于中国的契丹和女真趁机在北方中国建立多个政权,包括辽朝和金朝。
Of course, the Mongols ultimately triumphed. The Khitan regime was destroyed by the Jurchens, who, along with the Song dynasty, were the ruling dynasties of China at the time. The Jurchen Jin dynasty was ultimately destroyed by a joint effort between the Song dynasty, China, and the Mongols, who ultimately conquered the Song. This marked China's first fall and conquest by a foreign power.
Mongol rule in China was brief, lasting only 90 years. During the rise of the Ming dynasty, they massacred Mongols in China on a large scale, repeatedly invaded the Mongolian steppes, and even captured Karakorum, the capital of the Mongol Empire, twice. Even in the middle and late stages of the Mongol War, some prominent Mongol khans still surrendered to China. The Mongols fought over 800 wars against Ming China (over a period of nearly 280 years), with the Chinese winning roughly 65 percent of the time.
最终,蒙古人取得了胜利。契丹政权被女真人所灭,而金朝则在南宋和蒙古人的联合夹击下灭亡,蒙古人最终征服南宋。这标志着中国历史上首次被游牧民族完全征服。
蒙古人在中国的统治仅持续了90年。随着明朝的崛起,明军大规模屠杀中国境内的蒙古人,多次出兵入侵蒙古草原,甚至两次攻占蒙古帝国首都哈拉和林。即使在蒙古战争的中后期,仍有部分著名的蒙古可汗向中国投降。在近280年的时间里,蒙古人与明朝进行了超过800次战争,中国方面赢得了大约65%的战役。
The Ming Dynasty ultimately collapsed due to internal strife, and the Manchus, in collaboration with some Chinese, eventually entered mainland China and successfully established the Qing Dynasty. (Of course, the Manchus were not nomadic, so I won't go into detail.)
明朝最终因内部动乱而崩溃,满洲人联合部分汉人势力进入中原,成功建立清朝。(当然,满洲人并非游牧民族,因此不再详述。)
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作为一名中国人,我很自豪地告诉你,是中国。几千年来,中原王朝一直是游牧民族的死对头,经常在对阵他们的过程中占据上风。只有当我们陷入严重的内战时,像契丹、女真、鲜卑这样的民族才有机会在我们的北方建立政权。而当我们统一且没有严重内乱时,游牧民族几乎毫无机会。像匈奴、突厥这样的大型游牧帝国,最终都被中原王朝击败并驯服。
I'm curious why some people deliberately portray China's victories as bribes. The Han and Tang dynasties did indeed defeat xiongnu and Turkic armies on the battlefield. The Chinese dynasties possessed the best cavalry in the world. The nomads only had more horses, but their armor-forging and weapons technology was clearly inferior to the Chinese. When the Chinese possessed large-scale cavalry, the nomads were almost certain to lose. Both the Han and Tang dynasties proactively invaded the heartland of the steppes and directly defeated the enemy armies.
我很奇怪,为什么有些人故意把中国的胜利描绘成怀柔。汉朝和唐朝确实是在战场上击败了匈奴和突厥军队。中原王朝拥有当时世界上最精良的骑兵。游牧民族只是马匹更多,但他们的盔甲锻造和武器技术明显落后于中国。当中原王朝建立起大规模骑兵时,游牧民族几乎必败无疑。汉朝和唐朝都曾主动深入草原腹地,直接击败敌军。
The Qin and Sui dynasties lasted relatively short periods (less than 20 years, less than 40 years, respectively), but even so, they defeated the xiongnu and Turks. The Ming Dynasty was the last glimmer of glory, putting the Mongol Empire to shame. Mongolian textbooks state that under the relentless attacks of the Ming Dynasty's Chinese armies, the Mongolian steppes completely lost the possibility of unification.
秦朝和隋朝虽然持续时间相对较短(分别不到20年、不到40年),但即便如此,它们也击败了匈奴和突厥。明朝则是最后的辉煌余光,令蒙古帝国相形见绌。如今蒙古国的教科书上写道,在明朝军队的持续打击下,蒙古草原彻底失去了统一的可能性。
David M. Prus Depends on the nomads! In Africa it was the cities of the Nile Valley, the Sahel, the Horn and Swahili coast. In South America it would be the Andean kingdoms like the Inca empire. In North America it would be the city states of Central Mexico and the settled peoples of the Eastern woodlands and cities of the Mississippian civilization. Indian kingdoms in the north and west fought nomadic Asians. Russia conquered the nomadic peoples of the east. The Ottoman Turks conquered other, pastoral Turks. In Arabia the Badawi of the desert and Hadir of the towns were forever in battle.
这取决于是哪一群游牧民族!在非洲,对抗游牧者的主要是尼罗河流域的城市、萨赫勒地带、非洲之角以及斯瓦希里海岸的定居文明。在南美洲,则是印加帝国等安第斯山区的王国。在北美洲,是墨西哥中部的城邦、东部林地的定居民族,以及密西西比文明的城市。印度北部和西部的王国曾与亚洲游牧民族作战。俄罗斯征服了东方的游牧民族。奥斯曼土耳其人则征服了其他从事畜牧的突厥部落。在阿拉伯地区,沙漠中的贝都因人(Badawi)与城镇居民(Hadir)之间始终处于冲突状态。
And of course China and Korea had thousands of years of conflict with the people to the North and the West. They were the archetypal barbarians raiding in on horseback, slaughtering farmers with arrows and then carrying off whatever they could, Vikings on ponies.
当然,中国和朝鲜也与北方和西方的民族进行了数千年的战争。他们就是典型的“蛮族”——骑马突袭,用箭屠杀农民,然后抢走一切能带走的东西,就像是“骑着小马的维京人”。
The Chinese had the biggest , longest and most successful wars with the nomads, marching deep into the territory. They were never able to hold all of it, but they became masters of fighting them. Weapons like guns, rockets and crossbows were invented to counter the deadly horse archers. Fortresses and walls marked the northern border as constructions of incredible scale. The Ming wars with the Mongols and Jurchen led to the joining and expansion of ancient walls into the legendary Great Wall.
中国与游牧民族的战争规模最大、持续时间最长,也最为成功,甚至深入草原腹地主动出击,直接击败敌军。虽然中原王朝从未能永久占领全部草原地区,但他们已成为对抗游牧民族的专家。为了对抗致命的骑射手,中国人发明了火器、火箭和弩等武器。堡垒和长城则以惊人的规模构筑于北部边境。明朝与蒙古人、女真人的战争,促成了古代城墙的连接与扩建,最终形成了传奇的“万里长城”。
Keith Allum The nomads in Question need to be stated, as this cannot be assumed. In early prehistory ‘nomadic’ meant hunter gatherers following herds, not necessarily over savannah, through forest, or over tundra and taiger In ice ages this might involve mamoths, seal hunting or both, with walking over ice sheet or negotiating sea ice in skin boats. Unless you are only interested in a specific period, and locale, of course…
必须先明确“游牧民族”指的是谁,这一点不能想当然。 在远古史前时期,“游牧”指的是追随兽群的狩猎采集者,他们不一定在草原上活动,也可能穿越森林、苔原或针叶林。 在冰河时期,他们可能猎杀猛犸象,或猎捕海豹,有时徒步穿越冰原,有时乘坐兽皮船在海冰上航行。 除非你只关注某个特定时期和地区,否则“游牧”的定义非常广泛,不能一概而论。
Chuck-Yei Chan The biggest enemies to nomadic group would be mother nature. For a lot of nomadic empires; their civilization’s growth were really similar to that of their settled down neighbors. A lot of them start to get strong when there is war (because war causes the population to decline); then they unify and expand because their population grew (the earth is going through a warming trend). But due to the fact that they live in the steppes; when the earth goes through a cooling trend; that means where they live will have long winters and short summers. Herding is their main source of food; long winters meant that the grass livestocks fed on had not sprouted yet; and that results in a livestocks dying. When your food source is gone you result in raiding, and that led to conflict with their settled down neighbors. It was a cycle. But if you’re asking what “humans” brought nomadic civilization to an end; I would say the Russians and Soviets basically ended nomadic civilization. The Russian Empire conquered a lot of the known nomadic khannates in the 1800’s. When the USSR succeeded they basically forced nomadic people from practicing their own culture and speaking their own languages. You can say that the Soviets were brutal in forcing nomadic people to “become Russian”. That is why a lot of Central asian countries today; like Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, etc. They speak Russian, and write in Russian. A lot have had their traditional way of life changed. Even Mongolia; who was part of the USSR; but was under Soviet sphere of influence; had their traditional ways of life changed.
对游牧群体而言,最大的敌人其实是“大自然”。 许多游牧帝国的兴衰模式,其实与他们的定居邻居非常相似:当战争导致人口减少时,他们开始变得强大;随后实现统一并扩张,因为人口开始增长(这往往发生在地球气候变暖时期)。 但由于他们生活在草原地带,一旦地球进入气候变冷期,就意味着他们居住地的冬天更长、夏天更短。畜牧业是他们主要的食物来源;漫长的冬季意味着牲畜赖以生存的草还未长出,导致牲畜大量死亡。当食物来源断绝时,他们就只能通过劫掠来生存,从而与定居文明爆发冲突。这是一个循环。 但如果你问的是“哪些人类族群”终结了游牧文明,我认为是俄罗斯人和苏联人。 19世纪,俄罗斯帝国征服了大量已知的游牧汗国。苏联成立后,更是强制游牧民族放弃自己的文化、禁止使用本民族语言,强迫他们“俄罗斯化”。可以说,苏联在迫使游牧民族“成为俄罗斯人”方面手段极为残酷。 这就是为什么今天许多中亚国家——如哈萨克斯坦、吉尔吉斯斯坦、乌兹别克斯坦等——人们普遍会说俄语,使用西里尔字母书写。他们的传统生活方式已被彻底改变。 就连蒙古国,虽然未被并入苏联,但处于苏联势力范围之内,其传统生活方式也受到了深远影响。
Jeff Rosenbury Nomads were their own worst enemies. Different tribes fought constantly. China has the best record against them. It used diplomacy to stir up hatred between various tribes. “Let’s you and him fight” is still the Chinese go-to strategy when dealing with foreigners. If you want cultures that fought well, those with elephants and those willing to employ scorched earth tactics succeeded against the Mongols. What doesn’t work is bribery. The Byzantines took a small group of nomads and bribed them into becoming the unstoppable Turks. Never negotiate with terrorists. It’s cheaper in the short run, but it’s a form of suicide in the long run.
游牧民族最大的敌人其实是他们自己。不同部落之间常年互相争斗。 在这方面,中国的战绩最好。中国擅长使用外交手段,挑动各游牧部落之间的仇恨。“让你们俩去打”至今仍是中国人处理外事的惯用策略。 如果你要问哪些文明能有效对抗游牧民族,那拥有战象的文明,以及敢于实施“焦土战术”的国家,曾在对抗蒙古人时取得成功。 而贿赂是行不通的。拜占庭帝国曾收买一小支游牧部落,结果反而让他们壮大成为横扫四方的突厥人。永远不要与恐怖分子谈判——短期看省钱,长期看无异于自杀。
Robert Podesfinski If you look at the success of the Mongol empire in 1000 AD, no one did well. The nomadic Mongol Empire stretched from the Pacific Ocean all the way to Ukraine, as far south including China and farther southwest to Turkey and Iran. Poland.and Hungary were about to be swallowed up but the Mongoll leader died and the Khan family had a dispute over succession. Japan successfully kept the Mongol nbempire from landing on the shores of Japan. So Japan, Turkey and Iran are the winners.
如果你注意到公元1000年左右蒙古帝国的辉煌成就,可以说当时没有任何人能真正对抗他们。 这个游牧的蒙古帝国从太平洋一直延伸到乌克兰,南至中国,西南远达土耳其和伊朗。 波兰和匈牙利几乎就要被吞并,但蒙古领袖突然去世,汗室家族陷入继承权争斗,才使西征中止。 日本成功阻止了蒙古帝国登陆其海岸。因此,日本、土耳其和伊朗可以说是这场较量中的赢家。
Peter.Dant Most nomadic as most people are familiar with them, originated in East and Central Asia. What do you think? Who best faced nomads? The Chinese, of course. Many Chinese dynasties defeated nomadic empires. Only when they were caught in internal turmoil did some nomadic peoples seize the opportunity to invade China and even establish their own regimes in certain areas. Even the Mongols, at their peak, took an extremely long time to conquer the Song Dynasty (which never even unified all of China). The nomadic of Asia were indeed stronger than the nomadic of Europe. The Huns who escaped from the East conquered the indigenous nomadic tribes of Europe and established the Huns.
大多数人所熟悉的“游牧民族”大多起源于东亚和中亚。你怎么看?谁最成功地应对了这些游牧民族?当然是中国人。 许多中国王朝都曾击败过游牧帝国。只有当中国陷入内乱时,一些游牧民族才趁机入侵,甚至在部分地区建立自己的政权。即便是鼎盛时期的蒙古人,要征服南宋也花了极长的时间(而南宋甚至从未统一整个中国)。 亚洲的游牧民族确实比欧洲的更强。那些从东方逃出的匈奴人,征服了欧洲的原住民部落,建立了匈奴帝国。
Thomas Denson Probably the Soviets had the biggest success against the nomadic people. Their strategy was to gather all the nomads and put them on collective farms. If any nomads tries to leave and go back to their nomadic ways, you shoot them. Nomad problem solved.
可能苏联人对游牧民族取得了最大的成功。他们的策略是:把所有游牧民集中起来,强制他们进入集体农庄。如果有任何游牧民试图逃离、回归游牧生活,就直接枪毙他们。游牧问题?解决。
On Demand Reporter Alright, let’s unpack this—because it’s kind of a layered question. World history? Chinese history? European history? Yeah, *somebody* knows it. Professors in musty offices. Grandpas who won’t stop talking about Genghis Khan at Thanksgiving. Me, half-awake at 2 a.m., watching a YouTube doc about Mongol horse archery tactics.
我们来深入探讨一下这个问题——因为它其实挺复杂的。是世界史?中国史?欧洲史?没错,总有人知道。那些在昏暗办公室里埋头研究的教授。感恩节餐桌上喋喋不休讲成吉思汗的爷爷。还有凌晨两点半睡不着、正在看YouTube纪录片研究蒙古骑射战术的我。
But who actually *gets* it—the big picture, the messy connections? Honestly? A few specialists, a handful of passionate amateurs, and then the rest of us just… piece it together from documentaries, memes, and vague high school memories. “Wasn’t Attila that guy with the horse?” Something like that.
但真正能“理解”这一切的人是谁?——那个宏大的图景,错综复杂的历史联系?说实话?只有少数专家、一小撮热情的业余爱好者,其余大多数人只能靠纪录片、网络梗图和高中历史课的模糊记忆拼凑出个大概。“阿提拉是不是那个骑马的家伙?”大概就是这种程度。
Now, the real meat of your question: **Who were the biggest enemies of nomadic peoples?** And more importantly—**who actually beat them?**
现在回到你问题的核心:谁是游牧民族最大的对手?更重要的是——谁真正打败了他们?
Because let’s be real—when you think of steppe warriors, you usually picture unstoppable raiders. Huns smashing Rome. Mongols vaporizing armies. Turks taking Constantinople. It feels like they just rolled over everyone. But it wasn’t that simple. Nomads got stomped on too. More than we hear about. First off—what do we mean by “nomadic peoples”? We’re talking about groups like the Scythians, xiongnu, Huns, Mongols, Turkic tribes, Timurids—people who lived on horseback, moved with the seasons, fought fast and light. Masters of mobility. But not always great at holding cities or surviving sieges.
因为说实话,当你想到草原战士时,脑海里浮现的往往是势不可挡的劫掠者:匈奴人摧毁罗马,蒙古人横扫军队,土耳其人攻陷君士坦丁堡。感觉他们就像碾过一切。 但事实并非如此简单。游牧民族也曾被彻底击败,次数比我们通常听说的要多得多。 首先,我们说的“游牧民族”指的是谁? 我们谈论的是像斯基泰人、匈奴、匈人、蒙古人、突厥部落、帖木儿帝国这样的群体——他们生活在马背上,随季节迁徙,作战迅捷而灵活。他们是机动性的大师,但通常不擅长攻城或长期围困。
So who gave them trouble? Well—**the Chinese dynasties**, for one. Especially the **Han Dynasty**. They had a *huge* problem with the xiongnu, who raided northern borders for centuries. Sound familiar? Like an ancient version of border skirmishes, but with arrows and way more horses. But instead of just fighting them head-on (which rarely worked), the Han did something smarter. Diplomacy. Trade. Divide-and-conquer. They’d pay off some xiongnu chieftains to attack others. Played factions against each other. Also built early versions of the Great Wall—not as a magic barrier, but as a way to control movement, funnel raids, and buy time. Later, the **Tang Dynasty**? Even better. They didn’t just fight Turkic nomads—they absorbed them. Made alliances. Gave titles. Put Turkic generals in their own army. Co-opted the threat. Genius move. You don’t always have to destroy your enemy. Sometimes, just make him part of your payroll.
那么,谁让他们吃尽苦头? 中国王朝,尤其是汉朝,汉朝长期受匈奴困扰,匈奴数百年来不断劫掠中国北方边境。听起来很熟悉吧?就像是古代版的边境冲突,只不过多了箭矢和成千上万的战马。但汉朝没有一味正面硬拼(这几乎从不奏效),而是采取了更聪明的策略:外交、贸易、分而治之。他们会收买某些匈奴首领去攻击其他部落,挑动内斗。同时修建早期长城——不是作为“魔法屏障”,而是为了控制人员流动、引导劫掠路线、争取反应时间。后来的唐朝做得更绝。他们不只是对抗突厥游牧民族,而是吸收他们。建立联盟,授予官职,甚至让突厥将领加入唐军。把威胁变成自己人。这招太聪明了。你不一定非要消灭敌人,有时候,只要让他为你打工就行。
Then there’s **Russia**—or well, Muscovy, later the Tsardom. The Golden Horde (Mongol descendants) ruled over Russian principalities for like 250 years. Brutal. But slowly, Russia adapted. Paid tribute when weak. Built strength. Then, under Ivan III, finally broke free. Didn’t win in a big battle—more like a slow, cold divorce. Stopped paying taxes. Refused orders. Grew powerful enough that the Horde just… faded. And get this—the **Mamluks of Egypt**? Absolute legends when it came to stopping nomads. These guys were slave-soldiers, mostly Kipchak Turks, raised to fight. When the Mongols showed up after destroying Baghdad and Damascus, everyone thought Cairo was next.
俄罗斯(或莫斯科公国,后来的沙皇俄国),金帐汗国(蒙古后裔)统治俄罗斯诸公国长达约250年,极其残酷。但俄罗斯逐渐适应:弱时纳贡,暗中积蓄力量。最终在伊凡三世领导下彻底摆脱控制。没有靠一场决定性战役取胜,更像是“冷处理式离婚”:停止纳税,拒绝服从命令,等到自己足够强大,汗国便自然瓦解。
But at the Battle of Ain Jalut (1260). The Mamluks beat them. First major defeat for the Mongols in decades. Used terrain, deception, ambush tactics. Cut off supply lines. And here’s the kicker—the Mongol general in charge Kitbuqa. He wasn’t given reinforcements because Hulagu Khan had to rush back east due to a family dispute. So the Mamluks won partly because the Mongols were distracted. Still—huge deal. Proved the “invincible” horde could bleed.
但在艾因·贾鲁特战役(1260年)中,马穆鲁克击败了他们。那是蒙古人几十年来的首次重大失败。马穆鲁克利用地形、欺诈和伏击战术,切断了蒙古军的补给线。最关键的是,当时指挥蒙古军队的将领是怯的不花。他之所以没有得到增援,是因为旭烈兀汗因家族内斗而不得不匆忙东返。因此,马穆鲁克的胜利,部分原因归咎于蒙古人当时陷入了内部分歧。但不管怎样——这场胜利意义重大——它证明了那个所谓“不可战胜”的蒙古大军终究也是会流血。
Now, what about Europe? Europeans? Mostly got wrecked. The Huns under Attila scared the crap out of both Eastern and Western Rome. The Avars, Magyars, Pechenegs—all caused chaos. But eventually, settled powers learned how to counter them. Take the **Hungarians**. Wait—no, that’s confusing. The *Magyars* were the nomads. They raided deep into Germany, Italy, France. Then the Germans under **Emperor Otto I** crushed them at the **Battle of Lechfeld (955)**. Used heavy cavalry. Fortified camps. Cut off escape routes. After that? The Magyars stopped raiding. Settled down. Became Christians. Founded Hungary. Game over. Same story with the **Cumans** in Eastern Europe. Powerful horsemen. Allied with some kingdoms, fought others. But as kingdoms built stronger armies and castles, the open steppe shrank. No room to maneuver. No targets that were easy to hit and vanish.
欧洲人?基本上被打得够呛。阿提拉率领的匈人吓坏了东西罗马。阿瓦尔人、马扎尔人、佩切涅格人也都制造了巨大混乱。但最终,定居国家学会了如何应对他们。 比如匈牙利人?等等,这容易混淆。其实是马扎尔人才是游牧民族。他们曾深入德国、意大利、法国进行劫掠。但后来被德国皇帝奥托一世在莱希菲尔德战役(955年) 彻底击溃。德军使用重装骑兵、设防营地、切断退路。 此战之后,马扎尔人停止劫掠,定居下来,改信基督教,建立了匈牙利王国。游戏结束。 同样的故事也发生在东欧的库曼人身上。他们是强大的骑兵,曾与某些王国结盟,与另一些为敌。但随着各国军队和城堡日益强大,草原空间被压缩,他们失去了机动空间,也找不到容易得手的目标。
So who performed best against nomads? Honestly? The ones who didn’t try to beat them at their own game. Nomads win when: You chase them into open land. You panic and scatter. You underestimate their speed and range.
那么,谁最成功地对抗了游牧民族? 老实说?是那些不试图用游牧的方式打败游牧的人。 游牧民族获胜的条件是: 你追着他们进入开阔地带 你惊慌失措、四散奔逃 你低估他们的速度和射程
They lose when: You deny them supplies. You use fortified positions. You turn their allies against them. You wait them out.
他们失败的条件是: 你切断他们的补给 你依托坚固据点 你策反他们的盟友 你比他们更有耐心,消耗得起
The **Byzantines** were masters of this. Didn’t rely on brute force. Used spies, bribes, diplomacy, feigned alliances. Emperor Maurice even wrote a whole military manual about fighting steppe tribes. Smart, patient, sneaky. Not flashy—but effective.
拜占庭帝国就是这方面的高手。他们不依赖蛮力,而是使用间谍、贿赂、外交、假意结盟。皇帝莫里斯甚至写了一整本军事手册,专门讲如何对付草原部落。聪明、有耐心、狡猾。不炫目,但极其有效。
Also, **gunpowder changed everything**. Once cannons and muskets became common, the advantage shifted. Nomadic cavalry couldn’t charge through cannon fire. Forts got stronger. Empires like **Qing China** used guns and logistics to crush the Dzungar Mongols in the 1700s. Ruthless campaign. Wiped them out, basically.
此外,火药彻底改变了游戏规则。一旦火炮和火枪普及,游牧骑兵就无法再冲锋突破防线。堡垒变得更坚固。像清朝这样的中华帝国,在18世纪利用火器和后勤优势,彻底消灭了准噶尔蒙古人。那是一场残酷的战役,几乎可以说是全部歼灭。
So in the end? The best performers against nomads weren’t always the loudest or flashiest. They were the ones with patience, walls, politics, and sometimes, really good timing. It wasn’t about being the toughest warrior. It was about being the last one standing when the storm passed. And honestly? That’s true for most of history.
最终结论? 对抗游牧民族表现最好的,往往不是最响亮或最炫目的势力。 而是那些有耐心、有城墙、懂政治,有时还运气不错的文明。 胜利的关键不在于谁是最强的战士, 而在于谁能在风暴过后依然站立。 说到底,这几乎适用于整个历史。
Purushottam Kumar This is a rich question that spans thousands of years and multiple continents — so let’s tackle it in layers:
这是一个极为丰富的问题,跨越数千年和多个大洲——让我们分层来解析:
First, Who Were the Nomadic Peoples in History? Nomadic peoples are typically pastoralists — they move with herds rather than settling in one place, and often live in steppe, desert, or mountain regions. Historically, they were mobile, martial, and often disruptive to sedentary states.
首先,历史上的“游牧民族”是谁?游牧民族通常是牧民——他们随畜群迁徙,而非定居一处,常生活在草原、沙漠或山区。历史上,他们具有高度机动性、尚武精神,常常对定居国家构成威胁。
Major Nomadic Cultures Across Regions: Central Asia: Scythians, Huns, Turks, Mongols, Tatars, Kazakhs Middle East/North Africa: Bedouins, Berbers Europe: Goths, Vandals, Avars, Magyars, Cossacks (semi-nomadic) China/Steppe border: xiongnu, xianbei, Rouran, Göktürks, Khitans, Jurchens, Mongols Native Americas: Plains tribes like Comanche, Apache, Sioux (later nomadic, post-horse)
主要的游牧文化分布: - 中亚:斯基泰人、匈人、突厥人、蒙古人、鞑靼人、哈萨克人 - 中东/北非:贝都因人、柏柏尔人 - 欧洲:哥特人、汪达尔人、阿瓦尔人、马扎尔人、哥萨克(半游牧) - 中国/草原边境:匈奴、鲜卑、柔然、突厥、契丹、女真、蒙古 - 美洲原住民:平原部落(如科曼奇、阿帕奇、苏族)——后期因马匹传入才成为游牧
So Who Were Their Biggest Enemies? Throughout world history, nomads often clashed with sedentary agricultural civilizations, especially those that bordered open steppe or desert frontiers.
那么,谁是他们最大的敌人?纵观世界历史,游牧民族经常与定居农业文明发生冲突,尤其是那些毗邻草原或沙漠边疆的国家。
1. Chinese dynasties Arguably the most consistent enemy of nomads. For over 2,000 years, Chinese dynasties waged wars against steppe nomads: Han vs. xiongnu Tang vs. Turks Song vs. Khitan, Jurchen Ming vs. Mongols Qing vs. Zunghars Built the Great Wall (multiple times) specifically to hold back nomads. Used a mix of diplomacy, marriage alliances, trade, and military conquest.
1.中国王朝 可以说,中国是游牧民族最持久的敌人。 两千多年来,中国各王朝持续与草原游牧民族交战: - 汉朝 vs 匈奴 - 唐朝 vs 突厥 - 宋朝 vs 契丹、女真 - 明朝 vs 蒙古 - 清朝 vs 准噶尔 为此多次修建万里长城,专门用于抵御游牧入侵。 采用外交、和亲、贸易、军事征服相结合的策略。
2. Persian Empires (Achaemenid, Parthian, Sassanid) Fought Scythians, Saka, and other steppe groups from Central Asia. Also frequently hired nomadic cavalry as auxiliaries or mercenaries.
2.波斯帝国(阿契美尼德、帕提亚、萨珊) 与来自中亚的斯基泰人、塞种人等草原民族作战。 同时也常雇佣游牧骑兵作为辅助部队或雇佣兵。
3. Romans and Byzantines Struggled with Huns, Goths, Avars, and later with Arab and Turkish nomads. Employed border fort systems (limes) and diplomatic subsidies. The fall of the Western Roman Empire was driven in large part by pressure from migrating nomadic tribes.
3.罗马与拜占庭帝国 与匈人、哥特人、阿瓦尔人,以及后来的阿拉伯和突厥游牧民族斗争。 依靠边境防御体系(“边墙”limes)和外交补贴。 西罗马帝国的灭亡,很大程度上源于游牧部落的迁徙压力。
4. Russian Empire Fought and eventually absorbed many nomadic groups: Tatars, Cossacks, Kalmyks, etc. Long war against the Golden Horde. Eventually expanded across Siberia, “settling” it with agriculture and Orthodox Christianity.
4.俄罗斯帝国 与鞑靼人、哥萨克、卡尔梅克等游牧群体作战,最终将其吸收。长期对抗金帐汗国。 最终向西伯利亚扩张,以农业和东正教“定居化”大片土地。
5. Islamic Caliphates / Ottoman Empire Initially emerged from nomadic Bedouin society, but later became imperial. Fought and recruited Turkic nomads. Later Ottomans had to fight and settle semi-nomadic groups in the Balkans and Anatolia. ️ Who Performed Best Against Nomads?
5.伊斯兰哈里发国/奥斯曼帝国 最初起源于贝都因游牧社会,后来转变为帝国。 既与突厥游牧民族作战,也招募他们为兵。 后期奥斯曼帝国需在巴尔干和安纳托利亚镇压半游牧群体。
This depends on what you mean by “best” — military victories, territorial control, or successful assimilation.
谁在对抗游牧民族表现最佳? 这取决于“最佳”的定义——是军事胜利、领土控制,还是成功同化?
China (especially Tang, Ming, and Qing Dynasties) Successfully repelled, integrated, or co-opted multiple nomadic threats over millennia. The Tang Dynasty used Turkic cavalry, diplomacy, and trade networks. The Ming Dynasty expelled Mongol Yuan rule and restored Chinese dominance. The Qing Dynasty (itself Manchu-nomadic in origin) wiped out the Zunghars in the 18th century in a massive genocidal campaign.
中国(尤其是唐、明、清) - 数千年间成功抵御、整合或收编多个游牧威胁 - 唐朝:使用突厥骑兵、外交与贸易网络 - 明朝:驱逐蒙古元朝,恢复汉人统治 - 清朝(本身源自满洲游牧):18世纪对准噶尔发动大规模战役,近乎将其全歼
Russia From being dominated by the Mongol-Tatar Golden Horde, Russia turned the tables: Ivan the Terrible destroyed Kazan and Astrakhan. Russian Empire eventually settled and colonized the steppe, Siberia, and the Caucasus. By the 19th century, nomadism in Eurasia was effectively ended by Russian expansion.
俄罗斯 - 从被蒙古-鞑靼金帐汗国统治,到反杀:伊凡雷帝摧毁喀山与阿斯特拉罕 - 俄罗斯帝国最终殖民草原、西伯利亚与高加索 - 到19世纪,欧亚大陆的游牧生活基本被俄罗斯扩张终结
British Empire (in later colonial history) Defeated nomadic resistance in: India (e.g. Pindaris, Afghan tribes) Africa (e.g. Somali clans) Australia (Aboriginal hunter-gatherers) Used superior industrial logistics, firearms, and divide-and-rule tactics.
大英帝国(殖民时代后期) 在以下地区击败游牧抵抗势力: 印度(如平达里人、阿富汗部落) ;非洲(如索马里氏族) ;澳大利亚(原住民狩猎采集者)。 依靠工业级后勤、火器与“分而治之”策略
Islamic Caliphates (early period) Transformed Bedouin nomadic tribes into a unifying force that conquered the Byzantines, Persians, and parts of North Africa and Spain. Eventually became urban empires, though — not nomadic.
伊斯兰哈里发国(早期) - 将贝都因游牧部落转化为统一力量,征服拜占庭、波斯,远征北非与西班牙 - 但最终自身也城市化,不再是游牧政权
Patterns of Victory Against Nomads Sedentary empires that defeated nomads usually succeeded through: Hybridization Adopting nomadic tactics (e.g., Chinese using cavalry auxiliaries) Economic Pressure Controlling trade routes the nomads relied on Alliances / Divide & Conquer Playing tribes against each other Superior Logistics / Fortifications Walls, outposts, supply chains Mass Resettlement & Colonization Like the Russians did on the steppe Co-opting Nomads Turning them into clients, allies, or rulers (e.g., Qing Dynasty)
战胜游牧民族的模式总结 定居帝国若想击败游牧民族,通常依靠以下策略: - 混合化:吸收游牧战术(如中国任用骑兵辅助) - 经济压制:控制游牧民族依赖的贸易路线 - 联盟 / 分而治之:挑动部落内斗 - 强大后勤与防御工事:城墙、哨所、补给线 - 大规模移民与殖民:如俄罗斯在草原的定居政策 - 收编游牧者:使其成为附庸、盟友或统治者(如清朝)
Biggest enemies of nomads: China (across many dynasties) Persian empires Rome and Byzantium Russia Islamic and Ottoman empires
游牧民族的最大敌人包括: - 中国(贯穿多个王朝) - 波斯帝国 - 罗马与拜占庭 - 俄罗斯 - 伊斯兰与奥斯曼帝国
Most successful at defeating or absorbing nomads: China: through long-term military + cultural absorption Russia: through colonization and military conquest Qing Dynasty: wiped out rivals and ruled as nomads over China Islamic Caliphates: transformed nomads into empire builders British Empire: ended nomadic resistance globally in the colonial era
击败或吸收游牧民族最成功的文明是: - 中国:通过长期军事+文化融合 - 俄罗斯:通过殖民与军事征服 - 清朝:消灭对手并以“游牧者”身份统治中国 - 伊斯兰哈里发国:将游牧部落转化为帝国建设者 - 大英帝国:在全球殖民时代终结游牧抵抗