朝鲜和越南都曾是中国的藩属国，在历史上都深受中华文化影响，为何朝鲜对中国更为顺从，而越南则更具反叛性？

Michael X
Geography, the Chinese loves farmland. When they looked at the Korean Peninsula, the Chinese were like "Oh shit, they got nothing". So, They didn't take anything from the Koreans, instead they traded, the Koreans benefited more than China.

地理位置方面，中国人喜欢耕地。看着朝鲜半岛时，中国人会想“哎呀，那儿没什么可开发的土地”。所以，他们并没有从朝鲜人那里夺取什么，而是以贸易为主，朝鲜从中受益比中国更多。

However, the red river delta has rich farmland, it harvest rice 4 times a year. So the Chinese tried to annex Vietnam and tax the Vietnamese. Even today, the food self sufficient rate for South Korea is only 19%. Even their Kimchi are imported from China. Vietnam is a food exporter.

但红河三角洲有肥沃的农田，一年可收获水稻四季。因此中国人曾试图吞并越南并向越南征税。即便是今天，韩国的食物自给率只有大约19%。他们的泡菜很多也从中国进口。越南则是粮食出口国。


Vu Nguyen Xuan Hoang
When Chinese dynasties bring Chinese peasants to the Red river delta, those peasants were gived some small privilege over the local population to reinforce the government system. However, with the accumulation of land into the hand of powerful military commander, landlord, clans,etc. , those peasants quickly become the victim. Their knowledge in Chinese language turn them into the ideal choice for serf and servant because they can understand and follow the order better than native people, so they lost both the land which they had to reclaimed by themselves and their legal right. Anyone who ever study about Chinese history or just read the Three Kingdoms Romance will understand how bad is the living conditions of the ordinary people can be in China during Han dynasty, let alone somewhere that almost out of the reach of the central government’s law like in northern Vietnam. Even when the conditions in China get improved with the establishment of the new dynasties, thing didn’t change much in there. The old peasants fled from their master while the new peasants get lured in to fill the hole, like a automatic slaver trading system.

当中国王朝把中国农民迁入红河三角洲时，那些农民被赋予了一些相对于当地人的小特权，以强化统治体系。然而，随着土地逐渐集中到有权势的军事长官、地主、氏族手中，这些移民农民很快就沦为受害者。他们会中文的能力使他们成为理想的佃农和仆人——因为他们比本地人更能理解并服从命令——从而失去了原本靠自己开垦的土地和法律权利。任何研究过中国历史或读过《三国演义》的人都会理解，汉代普通人的生活条件可以有多糟，更别提那些几乎不受中央法律约束的地方，比如越北了。即便中国在新朝代建立后条件有所改善，那里的情况也并未发生很大改变。老农逃离主子，而新的农民又被诱入以填补空缺，几乎像是一个自动化的奴隶交易系统。

This twisted situation lead to an interesting result in the assimilation process when both groups reached a balance in exchanging members. Wealthy Vietnamese (chief, shaman, etc.) agree to adopt Chinese culture to enjoy more material advantage while improvised Chinese peasants hiding among Vietnamese communities to avoid the persecution of the landlord. The angry for being robbed and abandon by their own government in a strange land and the deseparate need to find a safer place to hide had pushed them to volunteer to adopt the Vietnamese culture. This is why the sinicization process in Vietnam look half-hearted when compare to other conquered territory despite being the earliest one and continuously in a thousand years. “Zeal of the convert” is no joke and it can explain the question if you think about it.

这种扭曲的局面在同化过程中产生了有趣的结果：两方在互换成员上达成了一种平衡。富有的越南人（酋长、萨满等）同意接受汉文化以获取更多物质利益，而被迫迁徙且处境拮据的中国农民则藏身于越南社区以躲避地主的迫害。被掠夺并被本国政府遗弃在异乡的愤怒，以及迫切寻找更安全藏身之所的需要，促使他们主动接受越南文化。这也解释了为何尽管越南是最早且持续千年的被汉化地区，但其汉化过程看起来却并不彻底。“归化者的热忱”并非玩笑，若认真思考可以解释许多现象。

Peter Tran
This could as well explained why there was a shifted in the Vietnamese language in the past when the critical mass of population has reached and paved the way for the ancient Anamese Middle Chinese spoken by the ruling class to merged with the native language spoken by the peasants to form the foundation for the Vietnamese language that is spoken today. I have been doing research on this and this information has given me the clues as to why this was happening. Appreciate the information.

这也可以解释为什么过去越南语会发生变化：当达到人口临界量后，统治阶层所说的古安南中古汉语与农民口语融合，为今天所说的越南语奠定了基础。我一直在研究这个问题，这些信息给了我为什么会发生这种演变的线索。感谢共享这些资料。

Michael X
Just from looking at the map. Do you think it’d be better for Red river delta to integrate with China than Southern Vietnam? Once the Railway is connected, the economic integration in inevitable. XD

仅从地图上看，你认为红河三角洲与中国整合会比与越南南部更合适吗？一旦铁路连接，经济一体化就是不可避免的。XD

Vu Nguyen Xuan Hoang
I think current situation is good enough. As Chinese said: “Distance make thing prettier”, have some sort of barrier here is better for both sides. We all know that the current peace is not eternal and the cycle of history is hard to break so why not leave the decision for the future generations when the conditions are met?

我认为当前的局势已经足够好了。正如中国人所说：“远处看更美”。这里保持某种隔阂对双方都更好。我们都知道现在的和平并非永恒，历史的循环也难以打破，所以为何不把决定留给未来在条件成熟时再去做呢？

Wei Shi
the condition was more or less true until French conquest (it was not for the better.).
The condition in old Vietnam & Korea were so bad, it could make less worldly Qing officers bleeding heart.

这种情况在法国征服之前或多或少是真的（但那并非更好）。古代越南和朝鲜的条件非常糟糕，以至于连见惯尘世的清朝官员都可能为之心痛。

“So the Chinese tried to annex Vietnam and tax the Vietnamese.”, not True, Vietnamese famers were not taxed in first 700 years of 1000 years China rule. It was more used as hub for erotica Southeast Asian goods ship to “Western” Chinese capital of Chang An, once Chinese capital move close to Eastern coast, Vietnam statute sunk from major port to borderland.

“‘所以中国人试图吞并越南并向越南征税。’这不准确。在被中国统治的一千年中，最初的700年里越南农民并未被征税。越南更被作为东南亚货物通往中国‘西部’都城长安的集散地；一旦中国的都城迁近东海沿岸，越南的地位就从主要港口逐渐降为边陲之地。”

Ngo The Hoan
“The expansion of the Earth goes from North to South. Just as in ancient time, South China was deserted and beyond the reach of civilization, so Southern Dai Viet too had once been the land of Chams and Khmers. However since our ancestral sages began to open it up, it has now become a superior civilized country”

“天地之扩展由北及南。正如古时华南荒凉、未及文明之域，南大越曾一度是占婆与高棉的疆土。然而自先祖开垦以来，如今已成为一片优越的文明之国。”

When Ming Mang succeeded from his father, he changed Vietnam’s name to Dai Nam (The Great South).

当明命继承父位时，他将越南国名改为大南（意为伟大的南方）。

His ambition was great, definitely far greater than what any Chinese emperor had envisioned for Vietnam - as a small submissive borderland in their far South.

他的雄心很大，明显远超任何中国皇帝所设想的将越南视为南方偏远、顺从的小边陲之想象。

As China was busy with its domestic problems, Vietnam had its own adventure going on in the South. In particular, it enjoyed role playing as China.

当中国忙于内务之际，越南在南方也有自己的作为。特别是，越南喜欢扮演中国的角色。

At the end of 1834, Emperor Minh Mạng formally declared Cambodia as a province.

1834 年底，明命皇帝正式宣布将柬埔寨设为一省。

In the territories under his control, Minh Mang changed the segregation policy of his father (Hán di hữu hạn), Emperor Gia Long, to full fledge assimilation.

在其统治的领土上，明命将其父嘉隆皇帝所采取的“汉夷有别”（Hán di hữu hạn）隔离政策改为全面同化政策。

“We must hope that their barbarian habits will be subconsciously dissipated and that they will daily be infected by Han (Sino-Vietnamese) culture”

“我们必须希望他们的蛮习在潜移默化中消散，日渐受汉（中越）文化的感染。”

The most notable example is the surname Thạch 石 , which was given to the ethnic Khmer in the newly conquered Mekong Delta.

最显著的例子是姓氏 Thạch（石），这是赐予新征服湄公河三角洲的高棉族人的姓氏。

In the newly acquired Cambodian territory, he appointed Trương Minh Giảng as the Viceroy for Cambodia and began a series of reforms with paternalistic intention:

在新并入的柬埔寨领地，他任命张明将（Trương Minh Giảng）为柬埔寨总督，并开始实施一系列带有家长式意图的改革：

“I have heard for example, that the land is plentiful and fertile, and that there are plenty of oxen, but the people have no knowledge of agriculture.

“例如我听说那地富饶肥沃，牛也很多，但民众不懂农事。

They grow enough rice for two meals a day but they don’t store any surplus. Now all these shortcomings stem from the laziness of the Cambodians.

他们只种得够两顿饭的稻米，却不储存余粮。如今这一切缺点都源于柬埔寨人的懒惰。

My instruction to you are: teach them to use oxen, teach them to grow more rice, teach them to raise mulberry trees, pigs, ducks. As for language, they should be taught to use Vietnamese. Our habits of dress and manners must also be followed. If there is any outdated or barbarous custom that can be simplified, or repressed then do so.”

我对你的指示是：教他们用牛耕田，教他们多种稻米，教他们种桑树、养猪鸭。至于语言，应教他们使用越南语。我们的着装和礼仪习俗也必须效法。若有陈旧或野蛮的风俗可简化或压制，就这么办。”

He went on to stress that assimilation and civilizing the native people were needed. He was particular obsessed with imposing the Han culture onto Cambodians.

他继续强调必须对本地人进行同化与文明化。他尤其痴迷于将汉文化强加给柬埔寨人。

“It was necessary to open the land up, then to civilize uncouth people with writing, cover fish scales with clothing, turn unhealthy air into good, and transform barbarians into Hoa. Heaven cannot let it be a barbarian wilderness.

“有必要开垦这片土地，然后以文字文明那些粗鄙之人，用衣饰遮掩鱼鳞（指粗陋着装），把不良风气变为良好，把蛮族改造成华人。天不能容许它成为蛮荒之地。

Now that our country is changing things in a significant way and registering Khmer households, the day of transforming old customs into Hoa has come!”

如今国家正在大规模改变并登记高棉户籍，变旧俗为华化的日子已经到来！”

The power trip of taking China’s role in the South had disillusioned Minh Mang into not understanding why Cambodians hated Vietnamese to death. Instead he called them ungrateful and wondered “Why do they hate us?”

扮演中国在南方角色的权力冲动让明命迷失，以至于不明白柬埔寨人为何恨越南人至极。他反而称他们忘恩，并自问“他们为什么恨我们？”

“Imperial troops were dispatched to Cambodia, costing millions of coins. Troops were stationed to bring peace. This action was like bringing the Cambodian people out of the mud and onto a warm feather bed. Why are there people who hate us and believe in the rebels?”

“朝廷曾派兵入柬，耗费数百万铜钱。驻兵以安抚局势。这一行为如同把柬埔寨人从泥淖中扶上温暖的羽床。为何还有人恨我们、投向叛党？”

Cambodian defiance against Vietnamese rule even made Minh Mang’s “hair stands up”

柬埔寨人对越南统治的反抗甚至令明命“毛发竖立”。

“Sometimes the Cambodians are loyal, at other times they betray us. We helped them while they were suffering and lifted them out of the mud. Now they are rebellious, I am so angry that my hair stands up.”

“柬埔寨人有时忠心，有时背叛。我们在他们受难时相助，将他们从泥淖中扶起。如今他们反叛，我气得头发都竖起来了。”

In 1841 before his death, Minh Mạng expressed his disappointment in Cambodia and ordered the burning of Cambodian orchards and crops.

1841 年，在临终前，明命表达了对柬埔寨的失望，并下令焚烧柬埔寨的果园和农作物。

“The Cambodians are so stupid, that we must frighten them. Ordinary moral suasion has no effect.

“柬埔寨人太愚昧，我们必须以恫吓来对待。普通的道德劝导无效。


Khmer temple in Southern Vietnam. The Khmer (Cambodian) had a great civilization, not any less than ancient Chinese.

越南南部的高棉庙。高棉（柬埔寨人）曾有辉煌的文明，丝毫不比古代华夏逊色。

Minh Mang was not the only ruler who tried to put Vietnam into China’s role in the South.

试图让越南担当中国在南方角色的，并不只有明命一人。

I would imagine this is because of Vietnam’s location next to other small countries comparing to Korea’s isolated location. They were stuck on a peninsula and didn’t have anywhere to expand into, or people to “civilize”.

我估计这是因为越南地处与其他小国接壤之地，而韩国地理较孤立。韩国被半岛限制，无处扩张，也无“可教化”的他方民族。

Source:
Viet Nam - A History from Earliest Times to the Present By Ben Kiernan

本·基尔南（Ben Kiernan）著《越南史：从最早时期到现代》

Cheong Tee
Korea was not more “submissive” compared to Vietnam. Having said that, I think ancient Chinese did consider Korea as more sinicized compared to Vietnam, probably because the ruling governments were mostly in the north, similar geography to Korea so closer similarity in certain cultural aspects.

与越南相比，朝鲜并非更“顺从”。不过我认为古代中国确实把朝鲜视为更汉化一些，可能是因为统治政权多在北方，地理与朝鲜更相近，在某些文化方面因此更相似。

Sam Nguyen
So interesting! So the Viet king/emperor(s) referred to the Viets as Hans. Was it always like that or only specific to certain period/era?

太有趣了！所以越王／皇帝们把越人称作“汉人”。这一直如此吗，还是只在特定时期才这样称呼？
Ngọc Khánh (楊阮玉罄)

Race was a concept little talked about in ancient East Asia, only nation and culture. Han here is to refer to Han culture, he admits that Dai Viet (or Dai Nam) has Han culture, but does not consider Dai Viet people as Han people.

种族在古代东亚并非常被提及的概念，更多谈的是国家与文化。此处的“汉”是指汉文化，他承认大越（或大南）有汉文化，但并不认为大越人就是汉人。

Julian Chau
China ruled Vietnam directly for over 1,000 years whilst Chinese direct rule over parts of Korea lasted only a couple hundred years. So in this way, Koreans were more successful in resisting Chinese rule.
The Turkic people did originate from Mongol and China. However once they migrated West, they intermixed with Organic peoples, especially when they migrated into Central Asia. The Oghuz then continued their journey as into Anatolia as the Seljuks, who were already persianized at the time. The Anatolians adopted the Turkic language from their conquerors. Therefore modern Turkish people are mostly of Indo European Anatolian stock but they speak a Turkic language due to the conquest by Seljuks. Black Jamaicans speak English, but they are not White English. They speak the language of their former conquerors, just as the Turkish people.

中国对越南的直接统治超过一千年，而中国对朝鲜部分地区的直接统治仅持续数百年。因此在这一点上，朝鲜人在抵抗中国统治方面更为成功。
突厥民族确实起源于蒙古和中国。然而一旦向西迁徙，他们便与本地民族通婚混杂，尤其是在进入中亚时。随后回鹘（奥古兹）又继续进入安纳托利亚，成为当时已波斯化的塞尔柱人统治的一部分。安纳托利亚人从征服者那里接受了突厥语。因此现代土耳其人大多是印欧语系的安纳托利亚血统，但因塞尔柱人的征服而使用突厥语。牙买加的黑人会说英语，但他们并不是白人英国人——他们说的是前征服者的语言，就像土耳其人一样。

Phen Su
Because of the different geographical environment

因为地理环境不同。

Both Vietnamese and Koreans are China's neighbors, but China is too big, and different neighbors are very different. A closer look at the map shows that Korea is very close to Beijing, but Vietnam is very remote.

越南人和朝鲜人都与中国为邻，但中国幅员辽阔，不同的邻国情况差异很大。仔细看地图可以发现，朝鲜离北京很近，而越南相对遥远。

Many people don't know that Koreans have always been richer than Vietnam and even richer than Japan in history. Because Koreans are the closest to the core area of China, they are also the first countries to communicate and trade with the Chinese, and they have gradually become prosperous. Vietnam and Japan only established countries after a thousand years. Therefore, China and Korea are more similar than others.

许多人不知道历史上朝鲜曾总体上比越南更富甚至一度比日本更富。因为朝鲜最接近中国核心区，也是最先与中国沟通贸易的国家，逐步变得繁荣。越南和日本则晚了一千年才建立国家。因此中国与朝鲜比其他国家更为相似。

The essence of the tributary system is the alliance of nations. There are many wars in north China. Like China, Korea faces the invasion of ern nomads and Japan. The degree of mutual dependence is very high, and everyone benefits from the alliance. There were few wars in southern China, and there were no external threats before the Western invasion. China and Vietnam gained very little from the alliance relationship, and people did not take the alliance relationship seriously.

朝贡体系的本质是国家间的联盟。中国北方战事仍频，朝鲜像中国一样面对北方游牧民族和日本的入侵，彼此相互依赖程度高，联盟带来互利。华南战争较少，在西方入侵之前也几乎没有外敌威胁。中国与越南从联盟关系中获益甚少，因此民众并不太重视这种关系。

Vietnam gained independence after the collapse of the Tang Dynasty. Vietnam is surrounded by small countries. Vietnam has a more expanded mentality, and has adopted expansionism and even annexed Champa. The Vietnamese are proud fighters. They fought with everyone and gained poverty and chaos. Korea is surrounded by big countries. They have a more humble attitude and adopt toadyism. They obeyed China, and obeyed all major countries, and succeeded in gaining stability and prosperity.

唐朝衰落后，越南取得独立。越南被许多小国环绕，具有更扩张的心态，采取了扩张主义，甚至吞并占婆。越南人好战且自豪，他们对外征战，导致贫困与混乱。朝鲜四面环大国，心态更谦卑，采取逢迎策略，顺从中国和其他强国，因此成功获得了稳定与繁荣。

The Koreans have the same winter as the Chinese, and people have a natural sense of crisis, so they are more farsighted. Vietnam is a tropical region. People are more optimistic and have little pressure to survive. People are more concerned about short-term interests and lack foresight.

朝鲜与中国同样冬季寒冷，人们有天然的危机感，因此更有远见。越南属热带，人们更乐观，生存压力较小，更关注短期利益，缺乏长远眼光。

After the decline of China, the Koreans and Vietnamese were colonized . They adopted different strategies. Korea quickly restored prosperity and Vietnam remained poor. There is no right or wrong, it's just that people have chosen a different way of life.

中国衰落后，朝鲜人和越南人都被殖民。他们采取了不同策略：朝鲜很快恢复繁荣，而越南则长期贫困。这无所谓对错，只是人们选择了不同的生活方式。

Nguyễn Khuê
“After the decline of China, the Koreans and Vietnamese were colonized . They adopted different strategies. Korea quickly restored prosperity and Vietnam remained poor”.
Yea sure, may I reminded you that the fight that seperated north and south Korea last only about three years while Vietnamese have to fight for century against the French, the Japanese, the Murica, Pol pot and Chinese, not to mention got sanctied for 10 years. Only in 1995 did VN started to have real independent. So history wise, Korea have a lot more room to developed not to mention the money the got from the US as well.

“‘中国衰落后，朝鲜人和越南人被殖民。他们采取了不同策略。朝鲜很快恢复繁荣，而越南依然贫困。’”
是啊，但请允许我提醒你，分裂朝鲜南北的战争只持续约三年，而越南人却必须与法国、日本、美国、红色高棉（波尔布特）以及中国斗争长达一个世纪，更别说还被制裁了十年。直到 1995 年，越南才真正开始独立发展。从历史角度看，韩国有更多发展空间，也得到了美国的援助资金。

Phen Su
No, if Koreans exchange battlefields with Vietnamese. They will stop the war after defeating France. Of course, Vietnam will not be unified. So I say that any choice has a price.

不，如果朝鲜人与越南人换成战场（即在越南而非朝鲜交战），他们会在打败法国后停止战争。当然那样越南不会统一。所以我说任何选择都有代价。

Anh Nguyen
You are right, we chose freedom and united, however, it made VN economy slower many years.

你说得对，我们选择了自由与统一，但这确实让越南经济迟滞了许多年。

Tim Tran
Saying Korea has historically been richer than Vietnam is false. There’s no historical basis to compare them both. Vietnam was recorded to be littered with gold even Song dynasty feared it, and commoners wearing silk while farming. Vietnam wasn’t poor until the Tay Son civil war.

说朝鲜历史上比越南更富裕是错误的，两者无可比性的历史依据。越南曾被记载为富饶到遍地黄金，宋朝也曾畏惧其富庶，百姓甚至穿丝绸田耕。越南直到太平盛世（注：此处作者指的是“太顺/太平/阮朝前后动乱”，原文为 Tay Son — 阮朝之前的崇文乱世）内乱后才变得贫穷。

Dong-Yoon Lee
Simple. Korea could not produce much rice like Vietnam. Because Korea has many mountains and climate is dryer and colder than Vietnam. Vietnamese can crop rice three or four times per year, but in Korea, it’s just once.
So if many residents died from wars toward China, Vietnam can quickly make up many soldiers but Korea could not do that. So, Korean residents and regime had valued their human resource very highly, relatively.

很简单。韩国不像越南那样能大量生产稻米。因为韩国多山，气候比越南更干燥、更寒冷。越南一年可种三到四季稻，而在韩国通常只有一季稻。
因此若因对华之战大量民众死亡，越南能迅速补充兵员，而韩国则难以做到。所以朝鲜人民与政权相对更重视人力资源。