毛乌素沙漠“消失”中国退耕还林与植树造林工程让其从地图上“除名”

Nnox
Very weird turn of phrase, but cool
这个表述方式很奇怪，但挺有意思的。
OnI_BArIX
Yeah they phrased this like this is some sort of evil thing.
是啊，他们这么说，搞得这事儿好像是什么坏事一样。
ManWithDominantClaw
In fairness a desert is a unique biome that's home to species that can't live elsewhere, people just don't like them because they're inhospitable to us and our crops bur killing them all would make some creatures extinct
平心而论，沙漠是独特的生物群落，是许多无法在其他地方生存的物种的家园。人们不喜欢沙漠，只是因为沙漠对人类以及我们种植的农作物不友好，但把所有沙漠都“消灭”会导致一些生物灭绝。
Critical-Support-394
The deserter the Chinese are reforesting used to be forests before they were deforested in the first place. They're not just randomly planting trees in actual proper natural deserts, these are man made.
中国人正在造林的这片“沙漠”，原本就是森林，后来因乱砍滥伐才变成了沙漠。他们并不是在真正原生态的自然沙漠里随意种树，这些都是人为造成的“沙漠”。
Unreal_Panda
That's not entirely true either. One reason there's re-forestation efforts is that deserts are, weird as it sounds, invasive. They slowly eat up the bordering biomes. Moreso in hotter regions like Africa but this goes for all deserts technically.
这么说也不完全对。开展造林工作的原因之一是，虽然听起来有些奇怪，但沙漠其实是“具有入侵性”的——它们会慢慢侵蚀周边的生物群落。这种情况在非洲等较炎热地区更为严重，但理论上所有沙漠都会如此。
Either-Patience1182
Dont worry this land hasn’t been a desert for long ecological wise. it was caused by land mismanagement the animals should be well adapted to the restored state of the grasslands.
不用担心，从生态学角度来看，这片土地成为沙漠的时间并不长，是土地管理不当造成的。当地动物应该能很好地适应草原恢复后的状态。
CureLegend
it is a satirical homage to BBC and CNN and all the other western media's habit of phrasing all Chinese development and progress as a bad thing--such as their recent publication about China's pollution control resulted in more global warming.
这个标题其实是在讽刺BBC、CNN以及其他西方媒体——它们总习惯把中国的发展和进步描述成坏事，比如最近就有媒体报道称“中国治理污染导致了全球变暖”。
ClessGames
China was still winning in that department but Trump put a nail in the coffin and decided to concede to the oil industry (correct me if I'm wrong)
在环保领域，中国本来一直处于领先地位，但特朗普来了个“致命一击”——他决定向石油行业妥协（如果我说错了，欢迎指正）。
Wide_Lock_Red
On the contrary, I see a fair bit of positive content about China on this sub. Which is a bit ironic given that it's supposed to be a punk sub.
恰恰相反，我在这个论坛里看到过不少关于中国的正面内容。不过有点讽刺的是，这个论坛按理说应该是个朋克主题论坛（通常对主流或官方叙事持批判态度）。
Ok_Chain841
I would never bad mouth China's efforts like this
我绝不会这样抹黑中国的努力。
LakeSun
Cool and cooler too. 
这事既酷，又更有深意。
darkvaris
Was the desert there because of degradation of the soil from human usage or did they just replace a perfectly natural habitat with tree cover?
这片沙漠的形成，是因为人类活动导致土壤退化，还是说人们只是用树林取代了原本完好的自然栖息地？
darkvaris
This region appears to have been desertified by mismanagement during the mid century so its good to see it being returned. However it used to be a grass land, not a forest
了解到这片区域在20世纪中期因管理不当出现沙漠化，现在能看到它被修复，确实是件好事。但这里原本是草原，不是森林。
Spinouette
Grasslands are important of course, but more vulnerable to desertification than forests.
草原当然很重要，但相比森林，草原更容易受到沙漠化的影响。
My understanding is that grasslands naturally progress to forests over time if they are not overgrazed. However, human intervention can accelerate or reverse this process.
我的理解是，如果草原没有过度放牧，随着时间推移，自然会逐渐演替成森林。不过人类干预可以加速或逆转这个过程。
I’m guessing that they accelerated the natural succession in order to protect the area from further desertification, as trees are more effective at that than grasses are.
我猜人们之所以加速这个自然演替过程，是为了防止该区域进一步沙漠化——因为在这方面，树木比草本植物更有效。
darkvaris
Yea, the interplay between these things is so interesting.
是啊，这些生态过程之间的相互作用太有意思了。
chairmanskitty
those would be considered a natural result: the evolutionarily efficient amount of grazing.
“这种状态应被视为自然结果是在进化过程中形成的、效率平衡的放牧量。”
It's not a matter of efficiency, but of stable equilibrium. If you dexed all grazing animals, many grasslands would become forests, at which point more animals could live off the mature forest biosphere.
其实这无关“效率”，关键在于“稳定平衡”。如果把所有食草动物都清除掉，很多草原会变成森林，届时会有更多动物依赖成熟的森林生态系统生存。
Grasslands exist when there are enough grazers and plants grow slowly enough that taller plants are eaten, but not so many grazers or such slow growth that the plant coverage dies and the topsoil can be washed away, turning it into a desert.
草原的存在需要满足两个条件一是有足够的食草动物，且植物生长速度较慢，使得高大植物会被吃掉；二是食草动物数量不过多、植物生长速度不过慢，避免植被覆盖消失、表层土壤被冲走，最终变成沙漠。
The amount of grazers a patch of land can support and the rate of plant growth are given by natural factors and by the species available. Human involvement can also adjust them.
一片土地能承载的食草动物数量以及植物生长速度，由自然因素和当地物种决定，人类活动也能对其产生影响。
From the perspective of someone trying to optimize nature in some way, like making it more resistant to climate change, or getting the most different species, or getting the most stable ecosystem, or getting the most crops from a food forest, it's easy to say that natural grasslands are "overgrazed", because grazing animals prevent the grasslands from "doing better" by becoming forests.
如果从“优化自然”的角度出发——比如让生态系统更能抵御气候变化、容纳更多物种、更稳定，或是让食物森林产出更多作物——人们很容易认为自然草原处于“过度放牧”状态，因为食草动物阻止了草原通过“演替成森林”来实现“更好的状态”。
Concretely, if we're trying to mitigate the effects of climate change and weather the storm for the next couple centuries in a robust way that isn't just trying to throw industry and technology at the problem, then we will probably want to turn many grasslands into (food) forests. Forests can stop the expansion of deserts much better than grassland, which is why the UN is building the Great Green Wall in Africa. Forests can also be grown as food forests, giving a very high agricultural yield for its foot print, giving the people that maintain them food security even as the global capitalist industry goes to shit.
具体来说，如果我们想缓解气候变化的影响，在未来几个世纪里以一种稳健的方式应对危机，而不是单纯依赖工业和技术手段，那么我们可能需要将许多草原改造为（食物）森林。森林防止沙漠扩张的能力远强于草原，这也是联合国在非洲建设“绿色长城”的原因。森林还可以作为食物森林来培育，单位面积的农业产量非常高，即便全球资本主义工业体系出问题，维护这些森林的人们也能获得粮食安全保障。
So in this sense, yeah, grasslands are "overgrazed" and people trying to build (food) forests to mitigate the global harm of climate change should keep out grazing animals.
从这个角度来说，没错，草原确实处于“过度放牧”状态，那些为缓解全球气候变化而努力建设（食物）森林的人们，应该阻止食草动物进入这些区域。
ZuP
I considered using “equilibrium” but that felt too judgmental. Fauna can disrupt equilibrium just as they can play a part in it. Perhaps we should say “grazing efficient enough to achieve an equilibrium”? Evolution doesn’t necessarily optimize, either. Many traits are neither favorable nor detrimental.
我之前考虑过用“平衡”这个词，但觉得它带有太多主观判断色彩。动物既可能维持生态平衡，也可能打破生态平衡。或许我们应该说“放牧量足以达到生态平衡”？而且进化也不一定追求“最优化”，很多性状既无优势也无劣势。
hobskhan
Everything has its place.
万物皆有其归属。
Until it doesn't, and it goes extinct!
直到有一天不再有归属，然后走向灭绝！
ChanglingBlake
Yeah, the title definitely makes it sound like a bad thing and not a “fixing our mistake” thing.
是啊，这标题听起来，搞得这事像件坏事，而不是“弥补我们之前的错误”。
Bradddtheimpaler
China did it, you see, so no matter what it is, it must be bad.
你看，就因为是中国做的，所以不管是什么事，都必须是坏事。
Sadix99
tehre was the Chinese civil war right before said mid century, and governments may have other priorities than environment in those circumstances. a stable state ends up restoring the place
20世纪中期之前不是发生过中国内战嘛，在那种情况下，政府的优先事项可能不会是环境保护。只有当国家进入稳定状态后，才会着手恢复这片土地的生态。
mark-haus
This region and many others in China are rapidly experiencing desertification. China has some of the fastest growing deserts in the world and a lot of people just worry about the Sahara. So it's very positive to see real action is being taken to prevent it.
中国的这片区域以及其他很多地区，沙漠化都在快速加剧。中国拥有全球扩张速度最快的沙漠，可很多人只担心撒哈拉沙漠的问题。所以能看到中国采取切实行动阻止沙漠化，真的非常积极正面。
sgkubrak
Two of the ways out of climate change is reforestation and afforestation. Afforestation means putting a forest where one wasn’t before. Typically though most afforested regions are on the edges of deforested regions and need to be stabilized anyway.
应对气候变化有两个重要方法，分别是退耕还林和植树造林。植树造林指的是在原本没有森林的地方建造森林。不过通常来说，大多数植树造林区域都位于森林砍伐区的边缘，而且这些区域本身也需要生态稳定。
Definitely a step in the right direction, but removing old ecosystems should be the last stop. What is solarpunk is putting forests on buildings, vertical farms off buildings, floating forests on retention ponds, roadsides, reforesting mines, etc.
这绝对是朝着正确方向迈出的一步，但清除原有生态系统应该是万不得已的最后选择。真正符合“太阳朋克”（注一种倡导环保、可持续发展的文化思潮）理念的做法是在建筑上打造森林、在建筑外建设垂直农场、在蓄水池上建造漂浮森林、在道路两侧植树、在矿区开展退耕还林等。
CMRC23
OP states in another comment that this desert was created by land misuse and they are in favour of foresting it. Sidenote, its not reforestation because it was a grassland before, not a forest
发帖人在另一条评论中提到，这片沙漠是人类滥用土地造成的，而且发帖人支持在这里造林。另外提一句，这里不能叫“退耕还林”，因为这片土地以前是草原，不是森林。
NomadicScribe
They took an unambiguously good thing and phrased it like China was doing harm. All they needed to add was "....but at what cost?!"
他们把一件显然是好事的事情，描述得好像中国在做有害的事。他们只需要再加一句“……可这背后的代价是什么呢？！”就更“完美”了。
Alphinbot
I went back to northwest China this year after a decade gap. I was genuinely surprised to see the amount of green on the once barren plains and mountains. Plus every farmer appears to be using drip irrigation now.
今年我时隔十年回到中国西北地区，曾经荒芜的平原和山上如今长满了绿植，这真的让我特别惊讶。而且现在几乎每个农民都在用滴灌技术。
This vast area was severely damaged by over grazing, deforestation and improper water management. This led to water shortage, sand storms and all sorts of problems.
这片广袤的区域曾经因过度放牧、乱砍滥伐和不合理的水资源管理遭到严重破坏，导致水资源短缺、沙尘暴等一系列问题。
It is good to see them back slowly. This is good for humanity.
现在看到绿色慢慢回归，真的太好了。这对全人类来说都是件好事。
Isopod_dad
I see a lot of misinformation in this thread about deserts and other arid ecosystems. Deserts are often rich and complex ecosystems. Yes, human-caused desertification is a thing and stopping or reverting it can be a positive, but we should be really careful when the rhetoric that deserts are useless wastelands. They are part of nature as a whole and contribute to global biodiversity.
我在这个帖子里看到很多关于沙漠和其他干旱生态系统的错误信息。沙漠往往是丰富而复杂的生态系统。没错，人为造成的沙漠化确实存在，阻止或逆转沙漠化可能是积极的举措，但我们必须警惕那种将沙漠视为“无用荒地”的说法。沙漠是整个自然系统的一部分，对全球生物多样性有着重要贡献。
Most arid ecosystems are not as diverse as more humid ecosystems (though there are exceptions), but they are home to many, often very specialised species. Take the Sonoran Desert in North America for example. This is a very diverse ecosystem with many endemic species which depend on the existence of this particular ecosystem. For example, saguaro cactus, California fan palm and Abert's towhee are mostly dependent on this desert ecoregion.
大多数干旱生态系统的生物多样性不如湿润生态系统丰富（不过也有例外），但它们是许多（通常是高度特化的）物种的家园。以北美索诺兰沙漠为例，这是一个生物多样性非常丰富的生态系统，有许多特有物种依赖这个特定的生态区域生存。比如巨柱仙人掌、加州扇叶棕榈和艾伯特唧鹀，它们大多只生活在这个沙漠生态区。
The Succulent Karoo of Southern Africa is another example and even more diverse. Of the more than 6000 native plant species, about 40% are endemic.
非洲南部的肉质植物卡鲁沙漠也是一个例子，而且生物多样性更丰富。在当地6000多种原生植物中，约40%是特有物种。
Arnold_Shortzweather
De-desertification is a good thing...? Idk sry the phrasing of the post title confused me
“去沙漠化”（即让沙漠恢复为非沙漠状态）是件好事吗……？我也不清楚，抱歉，帖子标题的表述把我搞糊涂了
smallbatter
The desert is bad, but the desert in China is good.
“沙漠是坏的，但中国的沙漠是好的。”
This is what I see from the comments.
我从评论里看到的就是这个逻辑。
Oldskoolguitar
They reversed the outcome of poor decisions.
他们纠正了之前错误决策造成的后果。
Must be nice
真希望其他地方也能做到这样。
forevergleaning
Maybe I'm just ignorant about the ecology of this, but this seems like a good thing. It may not be designed for biodiversity, but it will definitely be designed as a measure against desertification.
可能我对这方面的生态学知识了解不多，但这事看起来是件好事。或许这么做不是为了提高生物多样性，但肯定是为了遏制沙漠化。
PippoDuweist
I guess the motivation was to reduce the sandstorms in the bejing area, China isn't selfless
我觉得中国这么做的目的是减少北京地区的沙尘暴，中国可不是无私的。
Reasonable-Pass-2456
Tbh sandstorms are originated from Mongolia and there's not much Chinese can do. There were projects planting forests in the north side of Beijing but desertification in Mongolia is on a next level.
说实话，沙尘暴的源头是蒙古，中国能做的其实不多。中国之前也在北京北边搞过造林项目，但蒙古的沙漠化问题要严重得多。
Little_Exit4279
Reducing sandstorms is a bad thing how?
减少沙尘暴怎么就成坏事了？
PippoDuweist
I'm just saying that China that they are stopping desertification to reducing sandstorms in the nearby area. It's not protect the environment, it's just damage control. They are even responsible for the fact that overgrazing has created the desert in the first place, they are exploiting the planet like everyone else.
我只是说，中国阻止沙漠化，是为了减少周边地区的沙尘暴。这不是在保护环境，只是在控制损失。而且这片沙漠本身就是中国过度放牧造成的，他们和其他国家一样，也在掠夺地球资源。
ArvinisTheAnarchist
This brings me so much hope for the future. I wish this for almost every desert.
这事让我对未来充满了希望。真希望几乎所有沙漠都能变成这样。
darkvaris
Most deserts are natural habitats with endemic species. Wanting to green over desert habitats and dry regions isn’t solarpunk.
大多数沙漠是有着特有物种的自然栖息地。想要把沙漠栖息地和干旱地区都变成绿洲，并不是“太阳朋克”的理念。
If this desert was due to human misuse of the land, thats great, but to say “almost every” desert should be greened over isn’t right
如果这片沙漠是人类滥用土地造成的，那恢复它的生态当然好，但说“几乎所有”沙漠都应该被绿化
zek_997
Also, forests are great, but they are only one type of habitat among many. Grasslands, heathlands, shrublands, wetlands, open woodland, etc, are just as important and essential for biodiversity. Not every place is meant to be a forest.
而且，森林固然很好，但它只是众多栖息地类型中的一种。草原、石楠灌丛、灌木林、湿地、疏林等生态系统，对生物多样性同样重要且不可或缺。不是所有地方都注定要变成森林的。
homoanthropologus
I'm honestly curious about your opinion on this:
说实话，我很想听听你的看法
There's some archeological evidence that some or all of the Saharan desert was caused by human agriculture pre-writing. It's now been a really long time, and the ecosystem has adjusted to the new climate, but if we could, should we restore the land to how it was before humans desertified it, or should we allow it to continue as a desert?
有一些考古证据表明，撒哈拉沙漠的部分区域（甚至全部区域）在人类出现文字之前，就因农业活动变成了沙漠。如今已经过去太久了，当地生态系统也早已适应了现在的气候。但如果我们有能力，应该把这片土地恢复到人类造成沙漠化之前的状态，还是让它继续以沙漠的形态存在呢？
darkvaris
My understanding is that the Sahara formed from natural cycles some 10k years ago. Previous to that was a “humid period” in which humans were living what amounted to a Mediterranean savanna.
据我所知，撒哈拉沙漠是约1万年前因自然气候周期形成的。在那之前，该区域处于“湿润期”，当时人类生活的环境相当于地中海式稀树草原。
I’m unfamiliar with the science on this since I’m not a climate scientist but I’ve never heard that human activity was at fault.
我不是气候科学家，对这方面的专业知识不太了解，但我从没听说过人类活动是导致撒哈拉沙漠形成的原因。
But tbh at some point you have to draw the line of where you set the “what should be” and in this case my line is typically what existed pre-industrial era.
不过说实话，我们总得为“应有的生态状态”划一条界限——在这件事上，我通常会以工业革命前的生态状态为标准。
pa_kalsha
Not OC, but I reckon that, if an environment has a functioning ecosystem, we should leave it be and not project our desires onto it - especially ill-informed ones, like the 'plant trees everywhere' approach to rewilding/regreening.
我不是原评论者，但我认为，如果一个环境拥有功能正常的生态系统，我们就应该让它保持原样，而不是把自己的意愿强加给它——尤其是那些缺乏科学依据的想法，比如“为了野化/绿化，到处都要种树”这种做法。
The Sahara was destertified thousands of years ago; it's a bit different to somewhere that was desertified in the last 100 years.
撒哈拉沙漠的形成已经是几千年前的事了，这和近100年才出现沙漠化的区域是完全不同的情况。
homoanthropologus
Appreciate you thoughts! Thanks
感谢你的观点！谢谢！
taulover
In any case the Sahara is expanding into the Sahel as desertification continues, so efforts there still make sense.
无论如何，随着沙漠化的持续，撒哈拉沙漠正在向萨赫勒地区（注非洲北部撒哈拉沙漠以南的半干旱草原地带）扩张，所以在那里采取防治措施还是有意义的。
Citizenwoof
Apparently that was the case (previous misuse of the land)
显然情况就是这样（指之前提到的“人类滥用土地导致沙漠化”）。
darkvaris
Yeah that’s what I was reading. Glad to have some good news in the eco space. Things are grim out there
是啊，我查到的资料也是这么说的。能在生态领域听到这样的好消息，真的很开心——毕竟现在生态形势太严峻了。
Sim_Daydreamer
Death? At second thought yes, it's death of original ecosystem
“消失”？再想想，没错，这是原有生态系统的“消亡”。
shawwwwwwwwwwwwwn
but at what cost???
可这背后的代价是什么呢？？？
Antique-Athlete-8838
China haters’ ego probably
大概是仇中者的自尊心在作祟吧。
visitingposter
Because it's China, more reactions are doubt, suspicion, and question. And people wonder why they stopped wanting to be allies.
就因为是中国做的，人们的反应更多是怀疑、猜忌和质问。可他们又反过来纳闷，为什么中国不再愿意和他们结盟了。