德国将向土耳其出售台风战斗机 土耳其获得了暂时加入文明世界的资格

EverythingAboutX
Before complaining let me say this:
Turkish Air Force only contained American Jets and planes. This was causing enormous US soft power in Turkish foreign relations. By giving her approval, Germany now has soft power on Turkish Air Force and more soft power on Turkey's foreign diplomacy.
This sale is also encourage the "Buy European" because like it or not, Turkey is part of the European Market

在抱怨之前，我先说一句：
土耳其空军一直以来装备的都是美制战机和飞机。这导致美国在土耳其的对外关系中拥有巨大的软实力。如今，德国批准了这项交易，德国将在土耳其空军中拥有一定软实力，并在土耳其外交中获得更多影响力。
这笔军售也鼓励了“购买欧洲货”的理念——不管你喜不喜欢，土耳其本就是欧洲市场的一部分。

berikiyan
The stupid/iconsistent stance is that Trump/NATO wants and asks all members to increase their defence spending to above 2% (even 5% is being discussed these days), yet when Turkey wants to spend more on fighter jets, be F35s, F16s or Eurofighters, (or even if Turkey develops its own thing) the crybaby to our west is crying hard. It simply doesn't make sense.

矛盾且愚蠢的立场是这样的：特朗普和北约一方面要求所有成员国将国防开支提高到2%以上（如今甚至在讨论5%），
但当土耳其想要多花点钱买战斗机——无论是F-35、F-16、台风战机，甚至是土耳其自己开发的——我们西方的那些哭包就大声反对。根本说不通。

Soepkip43
There will be a lot of EU procurement. EU countries have mostly local stuff. The hope is that there will be more homogeneous equipment and not too much splintering of gear. But some items don't (yet) have real EU alternatives (f35, patriot, Tomahawk to name some) so those will be American made for how.

接下来欧盟会有很多采购动作。欧盟国家大多使用本地制造的装备。希望未来装备能更统一，而不是现在这样种类繁多、互不兼容。但有些项目目前还没有真正的欧盟替代品（比如F-35、爱国者导弹、战斧导弹等等），所以这些暂时还得买美国货。

nar_tapio_00
EU countries have small boutique production. There is a need to ramp up production hugely. Also, if Ukriane does not win against Russia then a Russian attack is inevitable soon, so we cannot wait and will have to purchase American or, maybe better, Korean. That means that politicians in EU countries need to commit to long term purchases of EU supplies, but also at this moment buy some specific things from America.
Also, it means that anything American we buy should be immediately used in Ukraine. A destroyed Russian tank is one we don't have to prepare to fight against. An destroyed Russian tank factory is a large delay to when we will have to be ready and will buy us time so we have a chance to actually deter war rather than having to fight it.
On the other hand, if Russia does produce and keep a tank we never know where they will attack and we need to have three to deter them. One in Poland, one in Scandinavia and one in the Balkans. The sooner we stop Russia the less the threat.

欧盟国家目前的军工还处于“小型精品生产”阶段，产能必须大幅提升。而且，如果乌克兰没能打赢俄罗斯，那么俄罗斯不久后发动下一次攻击几乎是必然的，所以我们不能等，必须现在就购买一些美国的，或者可能更好的韩国武器。
这也意味着欧盟国家的政治人物不仅要承诺长期采购本地装备，还要现在就从美国买一些关键装备。
此外，我们从美国购买的所有武器都应该立刻送去乌克兰使用。一辆被摧毁的俄罗斯坦克，就是我们未来不需要对付的一辆；而被摧毁的俄罗斯坦克工厂，则能大大延缓我们需要全面备战的时间，让我们有机会靠威慑来阻止战争，而不是被迫应战。
另一方面，如果俄罗斯还保有战车，我们就永远不知道它会从哪攻击，所以我们得准备三份力量：一份驻波兰，一份驻斯堪的纳维亚，一份驻巴尔干。越早遏制俄罗斯，威胁就越小。

Soepkip43
I think turkey is working hard on diversifying their military equipment to get out from under some of the US soft power.

我认为土耳其现在正努力在军事装备上多元化，以摆脱美国软实力的控制。

asdfasdfasfdsasad
It does when you know that the Turks are fairly involved with the Russians and play both sides. (see the S400 deal) so as a result nobody really trusts them not to test the S400 against western equipment and then send the Russians the data on how effective their air defences are, letting the Russians develop something that works to detect modern aircraft.
Which is why the US doesn't trust them with F35's, and won't sell them the latest versions of the F16 for basically the same reasons; the US doesn't want the Russians to know what the maximum effective radar range etc is on the aircraft.
And that's before you get onto the whole Greek-Turkish thing.

因为大家都知道土耳其和俄罗斯的关系挺密切，还常常脚踏两条船。（看看S-400的交易就知道了）所以没人真的信任他们不会用S-400测试西方装备，再把数据交给俄罗斯，让俄方借此研发出能识别现代战机的系统。
这也是为什么美国不信任土耳其，不卖他们F-35，甚至也不愿卖最新型的F-16；因为美国不想让俄罗斯知道这些战机的最大雷达有效范围等数据。
而这还没提到希腊和土耳其之间那一堆纠纷。

C2664
Germany? Are you aware that each Eurofighter Typhoon is produced by the four founding partner nations, with each one of them being responsible for manufacturing specific sections of the aircraft, and that final assembly for export orders takes place in the UK? And are you also aware that, as the headline implies, Germany has been the only member that has previously blocked Typhoon exports to Turkey?

德国？你知道吗？每架“台风”战斗机都是由四个创始合作国共同生产的，每个国家负责制造其中一部分组件，而出口订单的最终组装则是在英国完成的。而且你知道吗？正如标题所示，德国过去一直是唯一一个阻止对土耳其出口台风战机的成员国。

the_mighty_peacock
I want to believe that, but Germany has also sold Turkey frigates and submarines. What kind of soft power did they apply to prevent them from harassing greek research vessels in international waters?

我也想相信德国有什么“软实力”，但德国也卖过护卫舰和潜艇给土耳其。那他们的软实力去哪了？怎么没能阻止土耳其在国际水域骚扰希腊科研船？

ihategol
why are you guys so scared of Turkey? I rented a house in Paros and Naxos last summer. Erdogan's pic was on Greek newspapers on weekly basis. Meanwhile, Turkish newspapers never write anything about Greece. Let alone printing your PM's pic. I bet, 95% of Turkish citizens don't know the name of Greek PM's name.

你们为什么这么怕土耳其？我去年夏天在帕罗斯和纳克索斯租了房子，希腊的报纸几乎每周都在报道埃尔多安。可与此同时，土耳其的报纸根本不写希腊的事，更别提刊登你们总理的照片了。我敢打赌，95%的土耳其人都不知道希腊总理叫什么名字。

Emotinonal_jiggolo
How does Eurofighters fair against F-35's or SU-57's ? Are they 5th gen?

台风战斗机和F-35或苏-57比起来怎么样？算是五代机吗？

Bar50cal
Russia's 5th gen fighter but its not widly accepted to meet the criteria of true 5th gen.
There's not enough public information on its stealth capabilities to say if it is or not but it doesn't really matter as Russia isn't able to build them.
Russia has around ~20 operational + 10 prototypes since it enter service about 6 years and they want to reach production rates of 40 a gear by the 2030s which is unlikely to be met.
For comparison the F-35 varients entered service between 2016 to 2019 and NATO and allies already have over 1200+ F-35s in service with service with 3600+ total orders and production is at 20+ aircraft a month which is actually set to increase as they address some production issues.
The SU-57 low numbers mean its not a major factor in a large air war anytime soon. The real need for western 5th gen fighters is to combat China who is making their 5th gen aircraft at a very fast pace.

苏-57是俄罗斯的五代战斗机，但它是否真正符合“五代机”的标准仍有争议。关于它的隐身性能，目前公开资料太少，无法断言，但其实这也不重要，因为俄罗斯根本没法大规模量产。
苏-57服役约6年了，目前只有大约20架在役，另有10架原型机。他们的目标是到2030年代年产40架，但几乎不可能实现。
做个比较：F-35从2016到2019年各型号陆续服役，目前北约及其盟国已有1200多架F-35现役，订单总量超过3600架，产量是每月20多架，而且还在持续增加。
所以说，苏-57数量太少，不足以在大型空战中构成关键力量。西方真正需要五代机的原因，是为了应对中国——中国目前正在以非常快的速度生产自己的五代战机。

BothSupport8032
I'm reading the comments, and people keep saying that Turkey poses a greater threat to Greece. But honestly, those who say such things clearly know nothing about Turkish-Greek relations. They're just talking nonsense. Turkey would never attack Greece, and Greece wouldn't attack Turkey either.

我看了评论区，很多人都在说土耳其对希腊构成更大威胁。但说这种话的人显然对土希关系一无所知，完全是胡说八道。土耳其绝不会攻击希腊，希腊也不会攻击土耳其。

 AealTlk
Let’s not pretend Turkey is just a misunderstood NATO partner. This is the same country that openly threatens Greece with war over maritime borders, occupies northern Cyprus, and signed a legally dubious maritime deal with Libya claiming huge parts of the Mediterranean. And now we’re giving them 4.5-generation fighter jets? Germany is basically choosing short-term defense industry profit over long-term EU unity and regional stability. If things go south, Berlin better not act surprised.

别再假装土耳其只是个被误解的北约伙伴了。
这个国家公开因海洋边界问题威胁要对希腊开战，至今还占领着北塞浦路斯，还跟利比亚签了个法律上极具争议的海域协议，声称拥有地中海大片区域的主权。
而现在我们还要把4.5代战斗机卖给他们？德国这是在拿短期的军工利润换长期的欧盟团结与地区稳定。如果局势恶化，柏林最好别装惊讶。

iboreddd
Turkey and Greece have their issues, yes, but they’re both NATO members. They participate in joint military exercises, for god’s sake. They coordinate on multiple levels, despite political posturing. The idea that war is imminent in the Aegean is mostly noise, often amplified during election seasons to stir nationalist sentiment. It’s political theater, what Turks call "danışıklı dövüş."

土耳其和希腊之间确实有矛盾，但他们都是北约成员啊。他们还一起参加联合军事演习，天哪。尽管政治上有姿态和动作，但在多个层面上是有协调的。所谓爱琴海即将爆发战争这种说法，多半是噪音，经常在选举季被放大，用来煽动民族主义情绪。这就是政治戏码，土耳其人有个词叫“danışıklı dövüş”，就是“有剧本的对打”。

TheeRoyalPurple
Greeks do not afraid of Turkey. They afraid to be sell out by the West. What if the West say (one day) "give couple of your islands to Turkey, we need them in our side"

希腊人不是怕土耳其，他们是怕被西方出卖。万一哪天西方说：“把几个小岛让给土耳其吧，我们需要拉拢他们。”那怎么办？

SenpaiBunss
yes, erdogan may be an authoritarian dickhead, but the EU really needs to cooperate with turkey - they have the strongest conventional military in europe, and (imo) the most broadly developed domestic arms industry. cooperation is crucial

是的，埃尔多安也许是个威权主义混蛋，但欧盟真的需要与土耳其合作——土耳其拥有欧洲最强的常规军队，而且（依我看）是军工自主能力最全面的国家。合作是关键。

DocRob187
in my opinion, which is why i added the words "in my opinion"...
the united kingdom, my country, cannot manufacture tanks at any meaningful level. turkey can - in fact they're mass producing up to 1000 4th gen tanks. turkey also domestically manufactures the f-16, is the only country in europe with a relevant and feasible domestic 5th gen fighter program, and is the world leader in UAVs. turkey is also helping with spain to produce europe's largest aircraft carrier, and turkey domestically produces a whole load of advanced missiles, rockets and bombs etc.
yes, there are areas where the other countries lead (i can think of the british navy being one of them), but it is still very fair to call turkey's defence industry the most developed in europe. europeans gotta stop with this "we're superior to turks" shit, because it isn't true in many regards

这只是我个人意见，我才加了“在我看来”几个字……
我的国家——英国，几乎已经没有能力制造坦克了。但土耳其可以——他们正在量产多达1000辆的第四代坦克。
土耳其还国产可汗，是欧洲唯一拥有现实可行的本土第五代战斗机项目的国家，也是全球无人机技术的领先者。
他们还在协助西班牙建造欧洲最大的航空母舰，并自主生产大量先进的导弹、火箭、炸弹等等。
当然，其他国家也有领先的地方（比如英国海军），但说土耳其是欧洲军工最发达的国家，完全站得住脚。
欧洲人真该停止那种“我们比土耳其人高级”的心态，因为在很多方面，这根本不是真的。

NoNeedForNaming
Again a very short-sighted move from Germany that benefits only Germany. Financially, of course.
The second they OKayed the deal, Greece had to start thinking about spending more on defense. And again Germany is benefiting financially.
But this is far from over. Eurofighter without weapons is useless and France will not approve sales of Meteors to TR. Also, Greece and Cyprus will obxt and impose blockages on EU level.

德国又一次做出了目光短浅的决定，只对德国自己有利——当然是经济上的。
德国一批准这笔交易，希腊就不得不考虑增加国防支出。然后德国又从中受益。
但这事远远没完。台风战斗机如果没有配套武器系统就是废铁，而法国是不会批准把“流星”空对空导弹卖给土耳其的。
希腊和塞浦路斯也会在欧盟层面上反对，并试图施加阻力。

Masta-Pasta
So proud that Kurds will be bombed with EU weapons rather than US weapons now.

真骄傲啊，现在轰炸库尔德人的将是欧盟武器，而不是美国武器了。

tBeeny
Turkey is not a reliable ally and shouldn’t be equipped with powerful EU made weapons when it has territorial ambitions against the EU (Greek islands and EEZ, Cypriot EEZ) has a casus belli against the EU (ie a cause for war written in Turkey’s constitution if Greece implements it’s sovereign right to extend its territorial waters in the Aegean) and occupies half of an EU state (Cyprus). Turkey, with its gunboats, is actively sabotaging Greeces attempts to extract natural gas in its waters and is sabotaging the important electricity interconnection between Greece and Cyprus that would extend to Africa via Egypt and would be great for Europes green electricity needs.
North and Central Europeans don’t think these weapons make any difference on the ground, but they do. It’s not a normal sell to a faraway country, it’s a sell to an opportunistic irredentist state run by an autocratic strongman on the border of the EU. These weapons make the difference when Turkey is asserting itself onto its neighbors in the Mediterranean, claiming their territory (be that in the air, on the ground or at sea).
It’s sad to see the EU acting against its own security interests. A common defense policy is greatly needed, these missteps bear a cost.

土耳其不是一个可靠的盟友，不该让它装备强大的欧制武器。土耳其对欧盟怀有领土野心（针对希腊的岛屿和专属经济区、塞浦路斯专属经济区），甚至在宪法里写了“战争理由”，如果希腊行使主权把爱琴海领海扩大到12海里，他们就视为开战理由。
此外，土耳其至今占据着一个欧盟成员国的一半领土（塞浦路斯），还用军舰阻挠希腊在其水域开发天然气，破坏希腊与塞浦路斯之间、并将延伸至埃及的电力互联工程——这对欧洲的绿色能源计划至关重要。
北欧和中欧人总觉得这些武器卖给谁无所谓，但事实上差别巨大。这不是卖给一个遥远国家，而是卖给一个机会主义、带有民族复兴野心、由独裁者统治的国家，而且就在欧盟边境。
这些武器将成为土耳其在地中海对邻国施压、主张领空、领土、海域“主权”时的底气。
看到欧盟自己破坏自己的安全利益，真的很令人难过。我们急需统一的防务政策，否则这种失策终将付出代价。

TheoryOfDevolution
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Bad idea. We're going to give those S-400 even more targeting data on the Eurofighter. Nevermind the advantages it would give Turkey over Greece.

这是个坏主意。我们这等于是在把更多的目标数据送给土耳其的S-400系统。别提这还会让土耳其在面对希腊时占据更多优势。

Echer25
This sale sends all the wrong signals to both our EU partners and to authoritarian regimes abroad. Turkey has repeatedly acted against EU interests in the eastern Mediterranean, maintained an aggressive posture towards Greece and Cyprus, and continues to jail journalists and undermine democratic norms. Selling them Eurofighters — some of the most advanced jets in Europe — is like handing a loaded gun to a neighbor who already threatens to trespass. Germany may gain financially, but Europe loses strategically. This is not leadership — it’s appeasement.

这笔军售对欧盟伙伴和全球的威权政权都释放出了错误信号。
土耳其在东地中海多次违反欧盟利益，对希腊和塞浦路斯采取挑衅姿态，并持续打压新闻自由、破坏民主规范。
把“台风”战斗机——欧洲最先进的战机之一——卖给他们，无异于把上膛的枪交给一个已经扬言要越界的邻居。德国或许能获得财政收益，但欧洲却在战略上输了。
这不是领导力，这是绥靖。

SecretSquirrel10
Would Germany ok Euro fighter sales to Iran? Probably not. The main difference between Turkey & Iran is that Turkey is in NATO. However like Iran, Turkey is rabidly proIslamic & only cares about Muslim issues. It has no interest in upholding International Law & has an illegal EEZ agreement with Libya that claims the sea just off the coast of Crete. So Turkey in effect is claiming the rights of an EU & fellow NATO country Greece in favour of a failed Islamic State Libya. No one can ever explain why Turkey is still in NATO considering Erdogans hatred of the West.

德国会批准把台风战斗机卖给伊朗吗？大概不会吧。土耳其和伊朗的主要区别就是土耳其是北约成员。但像伊朗一样，土耳其极端亲伊斯兰，它只关心穆斯林相关的问题，根本无意维护国际法。
土耳其和利比亚签了个非法的专属经济区（EEZ）协议，声称拥有克里特岛近海海域的权利。这等于是在支持一个失败的伊斯兰国家（利比亚）而不是支持欧盟和北约的伙伴希腊。
没有人能解释清楚，为什么土耳其到现在还在北约里，考虑到埃尔多安对西方的仇恨情绪。

tree_boom
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Yeah great. Turkiye's a critical ally and they're currently stuck with F-16 as the best their air force can offer. They should be allowed to arm themselves properly. I would note too that their recent experience of being embargoed by their allies has lead to them developing quite an advanced arms industry which is producing equipment basically spanning the entire spectrum, which is capability that Europe quite sorely needs especially if you're one of those that thinks we should instantly and completely cut ties with the US

是啊，太好了。土耳其是个关键盟友，他们现在的空军主力还是F-16，早该让他们装备上像样的战机了。
而且值得注意的是，他们这几年被盟友制裁的经历，反倒促成了他们军工产业的飞跃式发展，如今基本已经能涵盖从头到尾的完整装备体系。
如果你是那种主张欧洲该立刻完全与美国脱钩的人，那你就更该认识到：土耳其这种能力，正是欧洲急需的。

Str92
Honestly, this is a pragmatic move by Germany. While people get emotional over Greek-Turkish tensions, the reality is that Turkey plays a central role in NATO’s southern flank, sits at the crossroads of Europe, the Middle East, and Central Asia, and has the second-largest army in NATO. Pushing them further into the Russian or Chinese sphere by isolating them militarily would be a geopolitical blunder. Yes, Erdogan is problematic. But you don’t shape the future by punishing allies — you do it by engaging them through shared interests like defense and trade.

说实话，这是德国务实的一步。虽然人们对希腊-土耳其的紧张关系情绪高涨，但现实是：土耳其在北约南翼扮演着核心角色，地处欧洲、中东和中亚的交汇点，还是北约中第二大军队。
如果因为军事孤立而把他们进一步推向俄罗斯或中国阵营，那才是地缘政治上的大错。是的，埃尔多安确实有问题。但未来不是靠惩罚盟友塑造的，而是通过防务和贸易等共同利益来与他们接触、引导他们。

 NAmatist
People complaining about this sale forget that defense exports are not just about trust — they’re about leverage. By selling Turkey Eurofighters, Europe regains some influence that was lost when the US blocked F-35 sales. Germany can now tie support, parts, and upgrades to Turkey’s behavior. If they misuse the jets or escalate tensions, the flow can be cut. That’s better than letting them turn to Russia or China, where we'd lose all control over what tech they get. It’s not perfect, but geopolitics never is.

那些抱怨这笔军售的人忘了，军售不仅仅关乎“信任”——它更关乎影响力。
通过向土耳其出售“台风”，欧洲可以夺回美国阻止F-35交易后失去的一部分话语权。
德国可以把技术支持、零件供应和升级绑定到土耳其的行为上。如果他们滥用这些战机或激化紧张局势，供应链可以立刻切断。总好过让他们转向俄中，那样我们就完全无法控制他们接触的技术了。虽然不完美，但地缘政治从来不是完美的。

Tect2537
Germany’s decision reflects a deeper problem in Western defense policy: we care more about “industrial cooperation” than who we’re arming. Turkey is developing a pretty formidable arms industry on its own — drones, missiles, tanks, even a 5th-gen fighter project. They’re no longer dependent. So by giving them Eurofighters, we’re not “gaining influence” — we’re just handing them more tools without meaningful strings attached. And worse, they’re still operating the Russian S-400 system, which could compromise sensitive NATO aircraft data. This is a massive security risk disguised as diplomacy.

德国的决定暴露了西方防务政策的更深层问题：我们更关心“产业合作”，而不是我们到底在武装谁。
土耳其本身的军工发展已经很强——无人机、导弹、坦克，甚至还有五代机研发项目。他们已经不再依赖外援。
所以我们把“台风”卖给他们，并不能“换取影响力”，反而是在没附加实质性约束的情况下给他们更多武器。
更糟的是，他们还在操作俄制S-400系统，这可能会泄露北约战机的敏感数据。这完全是个被伪装成外交手段的巨大安全风险。