美知乎讨论：是什么原因使得法国阵风战斗机不如中国歼-10C 战斗机？

Jesuan Wu Follow
The Rafael isn’t inferior to the Chinese J-10C. In fact, the Rafael is probably a better plane for multi-role missions.
The J-10, however, was designed with air-superiority in mind first and foremost, against the F-16 and Mirage 2000 that Taiwan was operating in the 90s. Multi-role capabilities are added on later as an after-thought.
The J-10A could do Mach 2 and couldn’t do air to ground at all. This meant that the airfrx of the J-10C, which was inherited from the A model, is probably better geared toward air-superiority than the Rafael, which was multirole from the get go.
Just by eye-balling them, the J-10C has a bigger radar, a smaller frontal profile, a longer body and smaller wing span. This is better suited for high speed and beyond visual range air to air missions.

阵风战机并不逊色于中国的歼-10C战机。事实上，在执行多用途任务时，阵风可能更胜一筹。
然而歼-10 最初的设计理念是优先考虑制空作战，针对上世纪90 年代台湾（地区）操作的 F-16 和幻影 2000 战机。多任务能力是后期才追加的补充设计。
歼-10A 机型能达到 2 马赫速度但完全不具备对地攻击能力。这意味着继承 A 型机体的歼-10C，其机体设计可能比从一开始就定位多用途的阵风更适合制空作战。
仅从外观判断，歼-10C 拥有更大的雷达、更小的正面投影、更长的机身和更短的翼展。这种构型更适合高速飞行和超视距空战任务。

Add to that Chinese radar tech is a probably ahead of the West due to better employment of rare earth minerals, which is a Chinese forte. The J-10C should be a better air to air fighter.
Still, I think the deciding factor in the Pakistan-India air battle of 2025, was that the J-10C, as well as the PL-15E missiles it fired, could receive data and guidance through datalix from other Chinese-made weaponry in the area, like the Chinese AWACS and anti-air missile batteries on the Pakistani front line, while Indian Rafaels and missiles were pretty much on their own, as it’s questionable how well the French tech spoke with India’s Russian anti-air missiles and Israeli AWACS. Heck I’d wager that the French, Russian and the Israelis weren’t letting foreign countries rewrite their codes at all, so the Indian weapon platforms probably couldn’t speak to each other.

再加上中国雷达技术可能领先西方，因为中国更善于利用稀土矿物这一优势。歼-10C 应该是更优秀的空对空战斗机。
不过我认为 2025 年印巴空战的决定性因素在于：歼-10C 及其发射的 PL-15E 导弹能通过数据链接收该区域其他中国制武器的数据和引导，比如巴方前线的中国预警机及防空导弹系统，而印度阵风战机和导弹基本处于孤立状态——法国技术能否与印度俄制防空导弹和以色列预警机顺畅协同很成问题。我甚至敢打赌法俄以三国根本不允许外国改写其系统代码，因此印度各武器平台很可能无法实现互联互通。

Reena Kapoor· May 21
An advanced “ABC” data sharing system made all the difference in India’s hostilities against Pakistan forces last week, flip over combat conventions, according to a Chinese defence industry newspaper.
In a report on Monday, China Space News said the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) deployed a “locked by A, launched by B, guided by C” combat system, integrating ground radars with fighter jets, and airborne warning aircraft. Unlike traditional air combat, where a single jet handles detection and missile guidance, Pakistan’s approach shared real-time data.
First, ground systems locked onto targets, then patrol jets launched missiles from safe distances, and finally airborne warning and control systems (AWACS) seamlessly guided the ordnance to its mark, according to the report. The system was used against the Indian Air Force, which the Pakistani military said last week led to the loss of five Indian aircraft including Rafale jets.

中国一家国防工业报刊称，印度上周在与巴基斯坦军队的敌对行动中，其先进的"ABC"数据共享系统彻底颠覆了传统作战模式。
中国航天报周一报道称，巴基斯坦空军部署了"A 锁定、B 发射、C 引导"作战系统，将地面雷达、战斗机与空中预警机整合成作战网络。不同于传统空战由单架战机完成探测与导弹制导，巴方采用实时数据共享的新模式。
报道称，该系统的作战流程是：先由地面系统锁定目标，巡逻战机在安全距离发射导弹，最后由空中预警控制系统无缝引导武器命中目标。巴基斯坦军方上周表示，这套系统曾用于对抗印度空军，导致印方损失五架军机，包括阵风战斗机。

This “systemic and asymmetric” tactic highlighted the rise of networked, intelligent warfare over mere firepower superiority. A few countries – such as the United States and Russia – had moved to the “launched by A, guided by B” model, with one aircraft launching the missile, and another able to take over guidance. In the recent skirmish, however, the PAF went one step further to add “guided by C”, the report said.
“Ground-based air defense systems lock onto Indian aircraft first. Fighter jets on patrol then receive the data and launch air-to-air missiles at safe distances. Subsequently, AWACS and other aircraft continue to provide tracking and guidance to the missiles until they hit the target. This beyond-visual-range combat ability has a game-changing role in the air combat mode.
The report did not mention any use of Chinese-made hardware, focusing instead on the PAF’s tactical prowess and India’s totally failure to unify its data lixs and combat platforms – which it said could prove fatal in future conflicts.
India had concentrated on buying equipment rather than integrating systems, the report said, citing Indian statements acknowledging data lix compatibility problems between various AWACS, ground radars, and fighter jets, causing delays in threat detection and response. In modern air combat, even a one-second delay can be fatal. Defense Analysts admit that Pakistan’s cost-effective, precision-focused system neutralized / defused India’s numerical air-power advantage.

这种"体系化非对称"战术凸显出现代战争正从火力优势转向网络化智能作战。目前仅有美国、俄罗斯等少数国家实现了"A 发射、B 引导"模式，即由一架战机发射导弹，另一架可接管制导。而报道指出，在此次冲突中，巴空军更进一步创新出加入"C 引导"的三元作战体系。
地面防空系统率先锁定印度战机。巡逻的战斗机随后接收数据，在安全距离发射空对空导弹。接着预警机和其他战机持续为导弹提供追踪制导直至命中目标。这种超视距作战能力对空战模式具有颠覆性作用。
报告未提及任何中国制造装备的使用，而是聚焦于巴基斯坦空军的战术优势以及印度在数据链与作战平台整合上的彻底失败——报告指出这在未来冲突中可能带来致命后果。
报告援引印度方面表态称，该国专注于采购装备而非系统整合，承认不同预警机、地面雷达与战斗机之间存在数据链兼容性问题，导致威胁侦测与反应延迟。在现代空战中，即使一秒延迟也可能致命。防务分析家承认，巴基斯坦高性价比的精准作战体系抵消了印度在空军数量上的优势。

S Sy· May 22
don’t try too hard to propagate J10 , it is a sub par jet
Here is my analysis
simple common sense that need to be applied on Rafale shoot down
All the targets in Pak were within 100 km from the border
The missiles used was scalp which has 400 km range
So all fighters can be at 180 to 200 from the border and still hit the target
Then for Pakistan jets can’t come close to the border, they were at least 150 km away
So to shoot our jets it will take like minimum 230 km and I am sure Chinese junk missile does not have that range

别太卖力吹捧歼-10战机了，它不过是款二流战机。
以下是我的分析：
需要应用于阵风战机击落事件的基本常识：
巴基斯坦境内所有目标都距离边境 100 公里以内
使用的导弹是射程达 400 公里的"风暴阴影"巡航导弹
所以所有战机都能在距边境 180 至 200 公里处发射导弹并命中目标
而巴基斯坦战机则无法靠近边境，它们至少保持在 150 公里以外
因此要攻击我方战机至少需要 230 公里射程，我确信中国的劣质导弹达不到这个射程。

Ram Parthasarath · May 21
All the Indian weapons platforms can speak to each other. Indigenous systems have been installed on all the platforms.
24 missiles were fired at terrorist camps and all of them hit their targets. The Chinese air defence system deployed by Pakistan failed to stop a single one.
In contrast, shoot down rate of Pakistani (Chinese and Turkish) drones and cruise missiles by Indian air defence was 98%.
The following day, fighter sweeps and missile attacks by India targeted and damaged 11 out of 12 air bases that Pakistan has in all. I think it’s pretty much clear who has the better air defence system and Air Force.

所有印度武器平台都能相互通信。各平台均已安装本土研发的系统。
24 枚导弹射向恐怖分子营地，全部精准命中目标。巴基斯坦部署的中国防空系统未能拦截其中任何一枚。
相比之下，印度防空系统对巴基斯坦（中国和土耳其制）无人机及巡航导弹的拦截成功率高达 98%。
次日印度发起的战斗机扫荡和导弹袭击中，巴方 12 个空军基地有 11 个遭受打击。孰优孰劣，我想答案已经不言自明。

Moa Aier· May 21
They can certainly speak with each other. The only only problem is perhaps they don't understand each other. It will be some like Greek to each other. One speaks in Hindi and insists that it should be only Hindi. The other speaks in Tamil, Telugu or Malayalam.

他们当然可以互相交谈。唯一的问题可能是彼此听不懂对方的话。就像各自说着不同的语言一样。一个人说印地语，坚持只能用印地语交流；另一个人却说泰米尔语、泰卢固语或马拉雅拉姆语。

Raja Hindustani· May 21
Well said, no Transparency, did we loose any Aircraft? nothing wrong in declaring it, we can learn lessons.

说得好，缺乏透明度。我们损失过任何战机吗？公布这些信息并无不妥，我们可以从中吸取教训。

FactsWork1· May 22
By India’s stats? Very trustworthy, haha….
So care to tell us how many Rafales were sent and how many returned safely and not in pieces?
Where is IAF BS 001 Rafale now?

印度的官方数据？可信度真高啊，哈哈...
那不如说说印度派出的阵风战机有几架完好返航？又有多少是以零件状态运回的？
印度空军编号 BS 001 的那架阵风战机现在下落如何？

GenTest · May 22
Indian rafeal series doesn't start with BS, if you know.

印度的阵风战机序列编号并非以 BS 开头，如果你了解的话。

FactsWork1· May 29
Actually I think it does, see here IAF Rafale BS 028

实际上我认为确实如此，你看这这架印度空军的编号为 BS 028的阵风战机。


…and the suspected downed BS 001:

…以及疑似被击落的编号为 BS 001的阵风战机：


Raja Hindustani· May 21
Rafale is great for India’s defense, and also made good money for the Feku gang, who purchased it for double the cost, and they told courts that they lost the File. open Loot is going on, no one should ask questions. We have a King who works for the Gujju Mafia.

阵风战机对印度的国防来说很棒，也帮助花了两倍价钱购买它的莫迪帮赚了大钱，他们还声称法庭文件丢失了。公开掠夺正在进行，没人敢于提出质疑。我们有个为古吉拉特黑手党效力的国王。

Epstein Lance · May 21
Latest HDI rank / score / classification / per capita GDP ($) / per capita GDP classification
China: 78 / 0.797 / high / 13,688 / high-income
India: 130 / 0.685 / medium / 2,878 / lower middle income

最新人类发展指数排名/得分/分类/人均 GDP（美元）/人均 GDP 分类
中国：78 / 0.797 / 高 / 13688 / 高收入
印度：130 / 0.685 / 中等 / 2878 / 中低收入

Raja Hindustani· May 22
In what way is it relevant in making a good aircraft, even in the good old days of communist Russia, they matched the U.S in Military Hardware, they sent the first Satellite into space, the Americans were Stunned.

在打造优秀战机方面，即便是在共产主义苏联的鼎盛时期，他们也在军事装备上能与美国匹敌，还率先将卫星送入太空，令美国人震惊不已。

xiaomi14· May 21
The question is… were Indian pilots up to their task?
Did they have enough training?
I mean… if you put an untrained pilot in a modern fighter jet, it will be an easy task to shoot him down, even if his opponent flies a 2ndWW piston driven warplane.
So the question wether the Rafale is better or worse than a Chinese jet is completely irrelevant.
And as they always say… “training makes a master”.

问题在于...印度飞行员是否能胜任他们的任务？
他们接受过充分的训练吗？
我的意思是…如果让一个未经训练的飞行员驾驶现代战斗机，即使对手驾驶的是二战时期的螺旋桨战机，击落他也易如反掌。
所以"阵风"战机是否优于中国战机这个问题完全无关紧要。
正如常言道："熟能生巧"。

Jesuan Wu· May 21
I don’t think it was a problem with Indian pilots. They often train with Russian and Western pilots.
I think the problem was more with command. In the 1962 China-India border war, Indian soldiers weren’t inadequate, nor were Indian frontline commanders, who told the higher-ups that India was not ready. But India chose not to listen to their frontline soldiers and pushed ahead with it’s "forward policy" of invading China into Tibet, Nehru even sacked the original Indian command and send his son-in-law as the new commander. Thus India lost terribly.
It’s the same case this time. Before the Rafael shoot downs, there was an incident a few days eariler, of Indian Rafaels being detected by Pakistani J-10s and got radar jammed, so the Indian commander called off the mission. What did India do? Modi sacked the Indian airforce general and put in a new guy blindly confident on Indian superiority. So the Indian airforce and pilots paid the price.
Pakistan’s J-10 stuns India’s Rafale with electronic jamming

我不认为这是印度飞行员的问题。他们经常与俄罗斯和西方飞行员一起训练。
我认为问题更多出在指挥层面。1962 年中印边境战争中，印度士兵并非不堪一击，前线指挥官也并非无能之辈——他们曾向上级明确表示印度尚未做好战争准备。但印度当局选择无视前线将士的警告，执意推行侵略中国西藏的"前进政策"，尼赫鲁甚至撤换了原指挥官，派自己的女婿接管部队。最终印度遭遇惨败。
这次事件如出一辙。在"阵风"战机被击落前数日，巴基斯坦的歼-10战机就曾成功探测到阵风战机并实施雷达干扰，迫使印度指挥官取消行动。印度当局如何应对的呢？莫迪撤换了空军将领，换上了一个盲目自信印度军力占优势的新指挥官。最终印度空军和飞行员付出了代价。
巴基斯坦的歼-10战机凭借其电子干扰能力让印度"阵风"战机颜面尽失。

KCC· May 22
Three tenets make this comparison unfair for the Rafale.
Western military citing theoretical best use case as the capability of their weapon systems.
Their reliance on “Jack of all trades but master of none”. You don't need much specialization when fighting against people who can't fight back.
Network data fusion is a characteristic of the fifth-generation fighter, which both fleets should not be capable of, especially since France refused to give India the source code. According to the West, only the US is capable of it, although it has never demonstrated it.
China granted Pakistan the military use of the BeiBou system, which India lacks. China launched satellites for Pakistan, which India lacks. China sold weapon systems that out-ranged anything that India has. China sold Pakistan sensor arrays that enabled situational awareness and were networked. China trained Pakistan on how to best use those weapon systems, i.e., tactics, that overwhelmed the Indians.
It wasn't the fault of the Rafales or their pilots, the S400 or their operators, etc, it was a complete mismatch in capability and the use case. Although it wasn’t a peer-to-peer competition, it was closer than the recent war on terror or the past colonial conquests.

这种比较对"阵风"战机有失公允，原因有三。
西方军事界常将理论最优使用场景视为其武器系统的实际能力。
他们依赖"样样通却样样松"的装备理念。对抗无力还击的对手时，确实不需要太多专业化配置。
网络数据融合是五代机的标志性能力，按理说印法两国都不具备——尤其法国拒绝向印度提供源代码。按照西方的标准，只有美国掌握该技术，尽管他们从未实际展示过。
中国向巴基斯坦开放了北斗系统的军用权限（印度没有）；为巴基斯坦发射了专用卫星（印度没有）；出售的武器系统射程全面压制印军装备；提供的传感器阵列组网后形成战场态势感知优势；还指导巴军运用战术充分发挥这些装备效能，让印军难以招架。
问题不在于阵风战机或其飞行员，也不在于 S400 防空系统或其操作员，而是能力与应用场景的彻底错配。虽然这并非势均力敌的对抗，但相比近期的反恐战争或昔日的殖民征服战争，这次较量显然更为接近对等对抗状态。

Lenardo Ho· Jun 9
Discussing this question is like which was more powerful, the Klamathonians or the Neanderthals. History has already told the answer. While the Neanderthals were very strong in melee, they had no chance to rush the Klamanons to exert their melee capabilities that could physically fight a mammoth. So they were completely crushed by the Klamanons.
The over the horizon tactics used by the J10 represent the future and in this respect it is not the Rafale but the Rafale, Typhoon, SU,MIG, Gripen, F-15/16/18 are all Neanderthals.

讨论这个问题就像在问克拉玛索尼亚人和尼安德特人(欧洲远古人类)谁更强大。历史早已给出答案。虽然尼安德特人擅长近战，但他们根本没有机会冲到克拉玛人面前施展能与猛犸象肉搏的近战能力，最终被克拉玛人彻底击溃。
歼10战机采用的超视距战术代表着未来空战的发展方向，在这方面不仅阵风战机落后，包括阵风、台风、苏霍伊、米格、鹰狮以及 F-15/16/18 在内的机型都如同尼安德特人般原始。

Jesuan Wu · Jun 9
Very interesting analogy. I suspect the J-10C is also more like a mini-J20 under the hood.

这个类比非常精妙。我认为歼-10C 本质上更像是缩小版的 歼20战机。

Michael X Follow
Wrong, the Rafale is superior in many aspects, otherwise it wouldn't be called the Omnirole fighter by the French. However, the Chinese added a small text after the "Omnirole fighter", "master of none".

错误，"阵风"战机在许多方面都更胜一筹，否则法国人也不会称其为"全能战机"。不过中国人在"全能战机"后面加了一行小字："样样通，样样松"。

Jon L· May 23
Modern warfare is to fight as a system, complementing each other to achieve multiplier effect and cost effective solutions. Individual hardware and showmanship is less effective, as illustrated in India loss of Rafael jets

现代战争是体系化作战，各系统相互配合以实现倍增效应和成本效益最优解。单件硬件装备和表演性质的表现效果有限，正如印度阵风战机折戟所印证的那样。

TSZtomson· May 23
This is determined by France's backward combat ideology and weapon system. France pursues multifunctionality and multiple uses, simply stacking various functions on a single flight platform. However, space limits the accuracy and range of the radar, which is a critical equipment, and lags behind the J10CE. This has led to the failure to detect the J10CE and air-to-air missiles aimed at itself in actual combat.

这源于法国落后的作战理念和武器系统。法国追求多功能和多用途，简单地将各种功能堆砌在单一飞行平台上。然而空间限制了雷达这一关键设备的精度和探测距离，使其落后于歼-10CE战机，导致实战中无法发现瞄准自己的歼-10CE 及其发射的空对空导弹。

Donny Trong· Jun 9
France technology is outdated and not for modern warfare

法国技术已经过时，它不适合现代战争。

Curious· May 23
If you want to fight houthis, or Afghan goatherders, or starving somali sea pirates, such omnirole fighters are much more useful than the Chinese jet who only can shoot down other jets.

若对手是胡塞武装、阿富汗牧羊人或饥饿的索马里海盗，这种"全能型"战机确实比只能击落敌机的中国战机实用得多。。

Do Chen · May 23
This statement strikes me as very stupid and ignorant. Has the Chinese fighter jet's "untested" theory been replaced by the claim that it has no ability to fight Afghan shepherds or hungry Somali pirates? Can't the J10C use air-to-ground missiles to bomb ground militants without air defense capabilities? Think about whether your statement is stupid.
The J-10C is a multi-purpose fighter that not only has powerful air combat capabilities, but can also perform ground and sea attack missions. Its mounting capacity has been significantly improved, and it can carry a variety of weapon systems, including air-to-ground missiles and anti-radiation missiles, making it excellent in ground attacks.

这番言论在我看来是极其愚蠢且无知的。中国战机的"未经实战检验"论调，难道已被替换成连阿富汗牧民或饥饿的索马里海盗都打不过的说法了吗？难道 歼10C 就不能用空对地导弹轰炸毫无防空能力的地面武装分子吗？想想你的言论是否荒唐吧。
歼-10C 是一款多功能战斗机，不仅具备强大的空战能力，还能执行对地、对海攻击任务。其挂载能力显著提升，可携带多种武器系统，包括空对地导弹和反辐射导弹，使其在对地攻击方面表现卓越。

Ben Chan· May 30
for these low value targets,,,, we Chinese most likely will use attack drone to get the job done , no need to use J10C at all .... it is not worth to use J10C... we don't need to get such experiences in J10C as French Rafale did..

对付这些低价值目标...我们中国人很可能会用攻击无人机搞定，根本用不着出动歼-10C...因为根本不值得动用歼-10C战机...我们不需要像法国阵风那样积累这种作战经验。

Tigar · Jun 2
Apparently, Rafale is superior to J10CE on paper. However, Rafale is of short range in radars and missiles. Thus, even in a one vs. one warfare scenario, Rafale will be shot before discovering J10CE.

从纸面数据看，阵风确实优于歼10CE战机。但阵风战机的雷达和导弹射程较短，因此即便在一对一空战场景中，阵风也会在发现 歼10CE 之前就被击落。

Paul Poh· Jun 7
Pilot experience and skills, also never underestimate your adversaries. India is too cocky, Indian thought having Rafale is a sure win over Pakistan.

飞行员的经验与技能同样重要，永远不要低估对手。印度过于自负，自认为拥有阵风战机就能稳赢巴基斯坦。

S Sy· Jun 9
india martial mistake of sending lesser trained women pilots to shoot missiles on Rafale , when they finished their job on turned back and that was when 15 PLE were aimed at just one rafale and probably one missile exploded in air hitting backside of the jet

印度犯下军事失误，派遣训练不足的女飞行员驾驶阵风战机发射导弹。任务完成后返航时，15枚PL-15导弹同时锁定一架阵风，可能有一枚导弹空中爆炸击中了战机尾部。

Donny Trong · Jun 9
Rafael jets is overrated and only good on paper. France wants to market rafael jets to be very good to sell at high price but Rafael jets are outdated for modern warfare because Rafael jets are easily detected by radar.

法国阵风战机被高估了，优势只存在于纸面数据上。法国为了高价兜售阵风战机而大肆宣传其性能，但实际上这款战机在现代战争中已经过时，因为它极易被雷达侦测到。

Alyasa Gan· Jun 25
J10c can detect further…look at its long nose, so it can “ see” rafale before Rafale can detect it..PL 15 can shoot further so Rafale don't know what hit them…Indian pilot are rocky flying higher within radar range thinking they are high amd mighty and only realise getting shot…J10c radar is superior, and Pakistan early warning system from China making pakistan far ahead of time

歼10C 的探测距离更远…看它修长的机头，能在"阵风"发现它之前就率先锁定对方…PL15 导弹射程更远，让"阵风"被击落时都搞不清状况…印度飞行员总爱在雷达范围内的高空耀武扬威，等中弹了才反应过来…歼10C 的雷达性能更优越，加上中国为巴基斯坦提供的预警系统，使巴方拥有压倒性先机优势。

Jim Wong Follow
The Rafale France fighter jet is not necessarily inferior to the Chinese fighter jet J-10C:
Who knows how much of the Indian training budget was diverted.
Somebody in Indian military could have sold secrets.
The Indian pilots and command were not prepared as they did not anticipate Pakistan could put up any counterattack.
China likely provided satellite supports.
Trump may have provided satellite supports to Pakistan just to screw India for not yielding more in the trade talks.

法国阵风战斗机未必逊色于中国歼-10C 战机：
天知道印度军方的训练经费被挪用了多少。
可能是印度军方内部有人泄露了机密。
印度飞行员和指挥系统准备不足，他们根本没预料到巴基斯坦能组织反击。
中国可能提供了卫星支持。
特朗普向巴基斯坦提供卫星支持，可能只是为了报复印度在贸易谈判中不肯让步。

Frédéric · May 22
Rafale outperforms J-10C in most aspects (range, payload, etc.), but lacks in key factors (radar, missiles, datalix) that matter in BVR air battles.
J-10C is equipped with AESA radar made of GaN technology (one generation ahead of the radar on Rafale), and contains more T/R components than Rafale.
J-10C carries PL-15 missile, using bidirectional datalix for guidance in addition to guidance by radar. Rafale seems to have problem with Meteor missile due to datalix compatibility.

阵风战机在多数方面（航程、载弹量等）优于歼-10C，但在超视距空战的关键要素（雷达、导弹、数据链）上存在短板。
歼-10C 配备采用氮化镓材料制成的有源相控阵雷达（比阵风领先一代），且拥有更多 T/R 组件。
歼-10C 搭载的 PL-15 导弹除雷达制导外还采用双向数据链制导。阵风战机因数据链兼容性问题似乎难以适配"流星"导弹。
注：相控阵雷达的T/R组件是其核心部件，负责信号的发射、接收及波束控制。

Ken Benneth Follow
It is not.
Indian planes were armed for ground strike. They wanted to strike terrorist camps inside Pakistan, not Pakistani military. They assumed Pak would not dare to retaliate. That assumption proved incorrect. Indians did not hit the AWACS plane in the air.
Pak planes were armed for AA strike, they laid ambush on the Indian planes. They got in the air with sole purpose of hitting Indian planes. They new the Indians’ targets in advance - they knew where the terrorist camps are, they knew Idians knew that. They received information of the incoming raid, likely from Chinese satellites even before their AWACS plane could see them. Together with the Chinese they executed perfect ambush.
One can assume if the war breaks out again, the Indians would prioritise AA and anti-SAM strikes first, using Meteor from Rafale and Israeli I-Derby from Su-30MKI, unless Israelis resurrect Mach 7 Python-6 for Su-30 MKI. Then the score would be different.

并非如此。
印度战机当时装载的是对地攻击武器。他们的目标是打击巴基斯坦境内的恐怖分子营地，而非巴基斯坦军队。印方误判巴方不敢反击，这一假设最终被证明是错误的。印度人并未攻击空中巡逻的预警机。
巴基斯坦战机为空中打击做好了武装准备，他们伏击了印度战机。这些巴方战机升空的唯一目的就是攻击印度战机。他们预先知晓印方攻击目标——清楚恐怖分子营地位置，也明白印度人掌握这一情报。甚至在己方预警机发现敌情前，他们很可能就已通过中国卫星获取了空袭预警信息。在中方配合下，他们完成了一次完美的伏击。
可以预见，若战事再起，印度将优先实施防空压制和反辐射打击，使用阵风战机的"流星"导弹和苏-30MKI 配备的以色列"德比"导弹——除非以色列能为苏-30MKI 复活速度能达到 7 马赫的"怪蛇-6"导弹。届时战果或将改写。

Weil Srrom · May 22
You assumed that IAF didn't prepared for PAF air to air attack as they assumed they will not retaliate then honestly Indian should better dismantled the bases and open call centre instead on the bases

你假设印度空军没有为巴基斯坦空袭做准备，因为他们以为巴方不会反击。说真的，要是这样印度还不如拆了军事基地改建成呼叫中心呢...

Gris Ramachandran· May 21
Nah indians would have been ready for a Pakistan strike. Some planes would have targetted terror sites. The rest would have bvr mode. That's why you have sead dead

得了吧，印度人肯定做好了应对巴基斯坦打击的准备。部分战机会锁定恐怖分子据点，其余战机会开启超视距模式。所以你们才需要防空压制。

William Yeo· May 21
Hey Aussie, why did you build house on China’s iron mine? time to return the land to its real owners:-)

嘿，澳大利亚人，你们为啥在中国的铁矿上盖房子？是时候把土地还给它真正的主人了:-)

Moa Aier· May 21
War is not like a volley ball game. In volley ball you need 25 points to win the game, and two games if best of 3, and three games if best of 5, to win the match. You may lose a game and a few points in succession but still go on to win the match. You may still lose the match but regroup for a rematch. But not in war. After having lost 6–0 jets, it's difficult to say that next time things will be different. Can Germany say that they lost WWII because of this reason or that reason, but they will win the next world war because they won't make the same mistake again?

战争不像排球比赛。排球需要 25 分赢得一局，三局两胜或五局三胜才能获胜。你可能连续输掉几局和几分，但最终仍能赢得比赛。即使输了比赛，还可以重整旗鼓再战。但战争不同。在 0:6 的战机损失后，很难说下次情况会不同。德国能说他们输掉二战是这个或那个原因，但下次世界大战他们会赢，因为他们不会再犯同样的错误吗？

Snehasis Panda· May 21
You are wrong it's not 6 indian jets it's 26 Indian jets . Pakistan destroyed all Indian Rafales ..
Oh god we are scared ..please saar please save us ..
LMao do you realise what a joke Pakistan and China are?
The Pakistani defense minister claims that they shot down 3 Indian jets .
Their airforce says 5 Indian jets.
Their army says 9 Indian jets …
Meanwhile you have no tail numbers, no satellite images , no videos , photos nothing

你错了，不是 6 架印度战机而是 26 架。巴基斯坦击落了所有印度阵风战机。
天啊，我们好害怕...求求您了先生救救我们...
笑死，你知不知道巴基斯坦和中国有多可笑？
巴基斯坦国防部长声称他们击落了 3 架印度战机。
他们空军却说击落了 5 架印度战机。
印军声称击落了 9 架巴基斯坦战机……
而你们既没有战机编号，也没有卫星图像，更没有视频或照片等任何证据...

Sanjeev Srivastava· May 21
This is my belief too. This seems to be the only logical reason for India to lose a jet or two (as is being alleged).
Further corroboration comes from the fact that these alleged losses came in the very first hour of the clash. The Pak/Chinese air force could NOT only not repeat the feat, they actually lost air assets to the IAF onslaught, in the subsequent faceoffs over the next two days of conflict.

我也持相同观点。这似乎是印度损失一两架战机（如传闻所称）唯一合理的解释。
进一步佐证这一点的，是这些所谓的损失发生在冲突的最初一个小时。巴基斯坦/中国空军不仅无法重现这一"壮举"，在随后两天的对抗中，他们实际上还在印度空军的猛攻下损失了空中资产。

Jo A Han Follow
Technology is as good as the people using them, not only pilot skills but also in terms of tactics and strategy to fully utillise the technology available. It is not correct to say outright the rafale fighter jets are inferior to J-10C. Because in modern aerial warfare, no fighter jets are stand-alone machines, able to defeat the enemy with only its on board technology and munition.
The reported downings of the rafale were not for the lack of technology or pilot skills but more because the doctrine and strategy used were outdated, maybe expecting more dogfights kind of scenarios, than BVR (beyond view range) and EWS (electronic warfare system) and sensors fusion been fully used by the pakistanis. By having 10–13 awacs compared to india's only 3 awacs, showed the pakistanis had shifted their aerial combat doctrine much earlier than india's. I have no doubt whatsoever given the scenarios, a few rafales were shot down.
in early 2026, pakistan will start receiving the J-35 stealth fighters, which will bring huge change to pak-india aerial dominance. And pakistan will receive those stealth fighters a couple of years earlier than india (india hasnt even decided yet which or whether they will buy stealth fighters). So much resources, time and money wasted on a piece of land called kashmir, even though they each got parts of kashmir already. If both are not strong enough to defeat the other outright, the conflict will last forever, draining huge resources, resources better used to uplift the hundred of millions of dirt poor people of both countries.

技术的好坏取决于使用者，不仅包括飞行员的技能，还包括如何运用战术和战略来充分发挥现有技术。直接断言阵风战斗机不如歼-10C 是不准确的。因为在现代空战中，没有任何战斗机是孤立的作战单元，仅凭其搭载的技术和弹药就能击败敌人。
据报道，阵风战机被击落并非由于技术或飞行员能力不足，而是因为其采用的战术理念和战略已经过时——印度人可能更期待近距格斗场景，而非巴基斯坦方面充分运用的超视距作战、电子战系统以及信息整合技术的比拼。巴基斯坦拥有 10-13 架预警机，而印度仅有 3 架，这表明巴基斯坦比印度更早完成了空战理念的转型。结合当时战场环境，我毫不怀疑有多架阵风战机被击落。
2026 年初，巴基斯坦将开始接收 J-35 隐身战机，这将彻底改变印巴空中力量对比。巴基斯坦获得隐身战机的时间将比印度早数年（印度至今尚未决定是否采购隐身战机）。双方在名为克什米尔的土地上耗费了如此多的资源、时间和金钱，尽管各自已控制部分区域。如果双方都不具备彻底击败对方的实力，这场冲突将永无止境，持续消耗本可用于改善两国数亿赤贫民众生活的宝贵资源。

Gully Foyled Follow
There's no real evidence there is.
Pakistan claim their J-10's shot down several indian Rafales but India denies this.
Even if the Rafales were lost it could be because of operator error, mechanical failure or ground-based Air defense.
IF the J-10's did shoot down the Rafales it's probably because of their sophisticated radar systems and long-range air-to-air missiles which have a longer range than the missiles used by India.

目前尚无确凿证据表明这一点。
巴基斯坦声称其歼-10 战机击落了数架印度阵风战机，但印度对此予以否认。
即便阵风战机被击落，也可能是由于操作失误、机械故障或地面防空系统所致。
若歼-10 确实击落了阵风战机，很可能得益于其先进的雷达系统以及射程超越印度所使用导弹的远程空对空导弹。

Mao Jing Follow
What Makes the Rafale Inferior to the Chinese J-10C? Absolutely Nothing.
Let’s get one thing straight right off the bat: France’s Dassault Rafale is not inferior to the Chinese J-10C — not by a long shot. In fact, if anything, the question should be reversed: How is the J-10C still taken seriously by anyone outside of China's state media?
The Rafale is a 4.5-generation multi-role fighter with actual combat experience, sophisticated avionics, battle-proven air-to-air and air-to-ground capability, and an international track record. The J-10C? A reverse-engineered knockoff, often hyped in Chinese propaganda circles but with little to show for itself in real-world combat.

是什么让阵风战机不如中国的歼-10C的？根本不存在这种事。
首先必须明确一点：法国达索阵风战机绝不逊色于中国歼-10C战机——甚至远胜之。事实上，这个问题应该反过来问：为何在中国官方媒体之外，还有人把歼-10C 当回事？
阵风是拥有实战经验的 4.5 代多用途战机，配备精密航电系统，有着经受过实战检验的空对空/空对地作战能力，并具有国际认可的战绩。歼-10C？不过是个逆向工程的仿制品，虽在中国宣传圈被大肆吹捧，却鲜有实际战果佐证。

Take Operation Sindoor, the recent India-Pakistan conflict, where the Pakistani Air Force deployed Chinese-origin JF-17s and had access to Chinese defense equipment including radar, missiles, and drone systems. The result? A disaster for Chinese military credibility. Indian Rafales not only held air superiority, but Chinese-origin drones and radar systems were jammed, spoofed, and outright destroyed. Several Chinese-made Wing Loong drones supplied to Pakistan were shot down with ease, and Chinese radar stations crumbled under coordinated electronic warfare. So much for “state-of-the-art.”

以最近的印巴冲突中印度发起的"辛杜尔行动"为例，巴基斯坦空军虽然配备了中巴联合研制的 JF-17 战机，并拥有包括雷达、导弹和无人机系统在内的中国国防装备，结果却让中国军工信誉遭受重创。印度阵风战机不仅掌握了制空权，中国制造的无人机和雷达系统更遭遇全面压制——多架出口巴基斯坦的翼龙无人机被轻易击落，中国雷达站在电子战协同攻击下完全失效，所谓"尖端科技"不过如此。

Let’s be clear: the J-10C has never been tested in actual high-intensity combat. Its radar system, despite boasting AESA, lags in range and reliability compared to the Rafale’s Thales RBE2, which is combat-tested and NATO-compatible. The Rafale’s Meteor missile outclasses anything the J-10C carries. And don’t forget — the Rafale’s Spectra electronic warfare suite has already demonstrated its ability to evade, jam, and strike with precision
Meanwhile, China’s military industry is best known for cutting corners, recycling Russian blueprints, and producing hardware that performs well only on paper and in glossy PLA videos. Even their so-called fifth-generation J-20 uses Russian engines, because their domestic engines like the WS-10 can’t maintain performance under real-world stress.
So, what makes the Rafale inferior to the J-10C? Nothing — except maybe in Chinese military fiction and overconfident state media broadcasts. On the battlefield, the difference is crystal clear: China talks, Rafale delivers.

必须明确指出：歼-10C 从未经历真实高强度战场检验。其配备的有源相控阵雷达虽号称先进，但在探测距离和可靠性上远逊于经过实战验证、符合北约标准的阵风战机配备的泰雷兹 RBE2 雷达。阵风搭载的"流星"导弹性能全面碾压歼-10C 所有武器，更不必说其"频谱"电子战系统已多次展现精确干扰、规避和打击能力。.
与此同时，C军工产业最出名的是偷工减料、照搬俄罗斯设计图纸，以及生产那些仅存在于纸面数据和光鲜宣传片中的装备。就连他们所谓的第五代战机歼-20 也使用俄罗斯发动机，因为国产的涡扇-10 发动机在实战压力下根本无法保持性能稳定。
那么是什么让阵风战机不如歼-10C？答案是什么都没有——除非是在中国军事幻想小说和过度自信的官媒报道里。战场上的差异再明显不过：中国负责夸夸其谈，阵风负责实战碾压。