红迪讨论区：中国是最古老的文明国家吗？ 网友们都是人才，学习了

@Such_Somewhere_5032
Better to ask r/ChineseHistory, but I think the point is not about Chinese being the same for 2000 years, but that you can trace the continuous development of China over the past 4000 years and see that it is indeed unbroken.
A case in point is how history was recorded in China, the imperial court of each dynasty recorded what happened during its time, but the writing of the official history fell to the successor dynasty and in doing so the successor dynasty recognised the continuation of a line of successive dynasties that goes back to Zhou dynasty

你最好去 r/ChineseHistory 中国历史版块问问，不过重点并不是中文在两千年里都没变，而是中国在过去四千年里的发展是连续不断的，这一点可以清楚追溯。
举个例子，中国是如何记录历史的。每个朝代的朝廷都会记录自己时期发生的事情，但官方史书的编写工作通常由下一个朝代完成，这种做法实际上也是新朝代承认了从周朝开始，一系列朝代持续不断地延续下来。

@bjran8888
There are ancient civilizations that predate China, but many of them have broken off (most notably the ancient Babylonian civilization, which has died out)
Chinese civilization is still following the same writing, history and worldview as it did thousands of years ago, and it is very clearly documented in writing and artifacts.
I'm not sure about other civilizations (and I don't think we're the only ancient civilization that has survived to this day), but what I do know is that Chinese civilization has been around for a very long time.
I just visited the Terracotta Warriors and Horses Museum of Qin Shi Huang the other day, and I was in awe of the artifacts that were built from 246 B.C. - 208 B.C. - I could even recognize the writing that had been carved into most of the terracotta warriors and horses, and I could feel our cultural connection.

有一些比中华文明更早的古代文明，但很多早已断绝（最明显的就是已经消亡的古巴比伦文明）。
而中华文明至今仍然沿用着几千年前的文字、历史和世界观，这些内容都有非常清晰的文献和实物记录。
我不太确定其他文明的情况（我也不认为我们是唯一幸存至今的古老文明），但我知道中华文明确实存在了非常久远的时间。
前几天我刚去参观了秦始皇兵马俑博物馆，对于公元前246年到公元前208年制造出来的那些文物，我感到非常震撼。我甚至还能认出大多数兵马俑上刻的文字，能够真切感受到我们和过去的文化联系。

@random_agency
They are starting to find sites that are 6000 years old.
Written history goes back 3300 years to the Shang dynasty.
Classical Chinese that were formalized in 220 AD (Han Dynasty) can be read by modern college educated Chinese.
It is pretty much the oldest continuous civilization states.
Because of all the written data, Chinese history is a lot more rigorous in determining verified facts and artifacts.

他们现在已经开始发现有六千年历史的遗址了。
中国有文字记载的历史可以追溯到三千三百年前的商朝。
从公元220年汉朝时期正式确定下来的文言文，到今天受过高等教育的中国人仍然能够阅读。
这基本上是世界上最古老且延续不断的文明国家之一。
也因为有大量的文字资料，中国历史在验证事实和文物方面比其他地方更加严谨。

@SongOfThePast
we learn many 古文 in high school, 1800年以前曹操写的短歌行, 诸葛亮的出师表等等，基本上中学水平都可以读了。

我们在高中学了很多古文，比如1800年以前曹操写的《短歌行》、诸葛亮的《出师表》等等，基本上到了中学的程度都可以阅读了。

@Putrid-Storage-9827
AFAIK, civilisation-state is a buzzword invented by Martin Jacques. It's trendy language not really accepted by mainstream historians or analysts, a lot like ethnostate which was coined by Richard Spencer and is also somewhat superfluous and not clearly defined.

据我所知，“文明国家”是马丁·雅克发明的一个流行词汇。它只是时髦的说法，并没有真正被主流历史学家或分析人士所认可，就像“民族国家”这个词一样，也是理查德·斯宾塞造出来的，有些多余，定义也不明确。

@Sorry_Sort6059
Simply put, no, but it might be the case for continuous civilization. I can read Chinese literature from 2,000 years ago. For texts from 3,000 years ago, I basically can't recognize them anymore—maybe I could guess one or two characters correctly... China's cultural relics are everywhere; you can dig up hundreds of kilograms of them without even trying. What puzzles me is why other civilizations don't have such massive outputs of artifacts?

简单来说，不是这样的，但对于持续不断的文明可能确实如此。我现在可以读懂两千年前的中文文献，但三千年前的文章基本看不懂了，可能只能偶尔猜对一两个字。中国的文物到处都是，随便挖一挖就能出来几百公斤。让我觉得奇怪的是，为什么其他文明没有这么大量的文物出土？

@luffyuk
China's cultural relics are everywhere; you can dig up hundreds of kilograms of them without even trying. What puzzles me is why other civilizations don't have such massive outputs of artifacts?
Have you ever been to Egypt, Greece or Italy?

中国的文物遍地都是，随便挖挖都能找到上百公斤，让我不解的是为什么其他文明没有这么大量的文物出土？
你去过埃及、希腊或者意大利吗？

@SongOfThePast
i don't think you understand the quantity archeologist find in china, often time they have to bury them back or even throw away because there is too much and not enough time or people to study them. there are also many ancient site found in modern city that is building new thing, and the developer hide or destroy the site because he don't want the archeology team to go there and delay the development. so many case like this. archelogy is everywhere in china and is impossible to find and study them all. greece and italy very tiny in comparison, egypt is also only along the river.

我觉得你不明白考古学家在中国发现了多少文物，很多时候他们不得不把发现的东西重新掩埋甚至扔掉，因为数量太多，根本没有足够的时间和人员去研究。此外，在现代城市建设新项目时也经常会发现很多古遗址，但是开发商为了不让考古队介入影响工程进度，会选择隐瞒甚至破坏遗址。这样的例子有很多。在中国，考古发现无处不在，根本不可能全部找到并研究。相比之下，希腊和意大利的规模非常小，埃及的遗址也主要集中在河流沿岸。

@Sorry_Sort6059
I'm not denying the civilizations of ancient Egypt, Greece, or Rome. Take coins for example - I haven't seen records of theirs exceeding hundreds of kilograms, but just from the tomb of Marquis Haihun (a deposed emperor active around 70 BC) in China's Western Han Dynasty, over 10 tons of ancient coins were excavated, along with more than 100 kilograms of gold artifacts.
China has many such artifacts, including some extremely exquisite cultural relics that represent the civilization of that era. What I mean is that other ancient civilizations haven't yielded enough artifacts - there should be at least ten times more than what we've found so far.
Let me share an artifact belonging to my direct ancestor who was active in 443 BC. The complexity of this artifact is absolutely astonishing.

我并不是否认古埃及、希腊或罗马的文明。比如说钱币吧——我没有看到那些文明有超百公斤的钱币出土记录，但单单中国西汉时期（公元前70年左右活动的）“海昏侯”墓中，就出土了超过10吨的古钱币和100多公斤的金器。
在中国，这样的文物还有很多，包括一些极其精美、能够代表当时文明水准的文物。我的意思是，其他古代文明出土的文物数量还远远不够——实际上应该至少有我们目前发现数量的十倍才对。
这里想和大家分享一件我直系祖先（公元前443年）使用过的文物，其工艺复杂程度令人震撼。


@Fair-Currency-9993
Would you mind sharing more about this artifact? And in which museum is it stored?
I have never seen something like this before.

你能多介绍一下这个文物吗？它现在收藏在哪个博物馆？
我以前从没见过这样的东西。

@Sorry_Sort6059

This is the Zeng Hou Yi Zun Pan, known in Chinese as "曾侯乙尊盘" the most intricate and exquisite bronze artifact from the Spring and Autumn and Warring States periods (443 BCE). The bronze pan is adorned with 56 coiled dragons and 48 coiled serpents, and it is currently housed in the Hubei Provincial Museum in China.

This artifact was used for serving wine during banquets. The hollow center held the wine, while the outer section could be filled with ice in summer to chill the wine inside. In winter, charcoal could be burned to warm the wine.

这是曾侯乙尊盘，是春秋战国时期（公元前443年）最精美复杂的青铜器。盘身饰有56条盘龙和48条盘蛇，现收藏于中国湖北省博物馆。
这件器物在宴会上用于盛酒。中间的空心部分用来盛酒，外圈在夏天可以放冰来冰镇酒，冬天则可以放炭火加热酒。

@species5618w
China is not one of the oldest civilizations. However, China kept written histories throughout, which I think is unique in the world. And yes, China has a unique culture which while changed a lot over the year, stayed relatively continuous. Most of conquerors of China adopted the culture to certain degrees whereas China absorbed their cultures as well.

中国并不是最古老的文明之一，但中国自始至终都有文字记载的历史，这在世界上是独特的。同时，中国文化虽然经过了许多变化，但整体上保持了相对的延续性。大多数征服中国的统治者都在一定程度上接受了中国文化，而中国自身也吸收了他们的文化。

@ophirelkbir
Skeptic Westerner
Not a Chinese person here but:
There's nothing unimpressive about the Chinese legacy and its cultural torch, but I think any attempt to present any one civilization as exceptionally old and continuous is doomed to rely on very specific standards for what counts as continuity.
I'm not sure what such a conclusion about one society or another would achieve other than a "we are better" vibe (AKA X-exceptionalism).

持怀疑态度的西方人
我不是中国人，但中国的历史传承和文化确实令人印象深刻。不过，我认为如果想把某个文明单独描述为“特别古老且连续”，其实很容易陷入用非常特定的标准来定义“连续性”。
至于把某个社会或文明得出这种结论，除了彰显“我们更优秀”（也就是某种特殊论）之外，好像没有太多意义。

@Any_News_7208
Isn't it Iran for the longest continuous state?

不是伊朗才是历史上存在最久的持续性国家吗？

@SteakEconomy2024
@Any_News_7208
Like 60 years?
@Any_News_7208

大约60年？

@Vast_Cricket
Civilization started in Mesopotamia earlier.

文明最早起源于美索不达米亚。

@Dry-Interaction-1246
Try egypt

试谈埃及

@nagidon

香港（特区）人

Was ancient Egypt an Islamic and self-styled Arab nation?

古代埃及是伊斯兰国家并自称为阿拉伯民族吗？

@BanNer7
In which universe, cultures stay the same? Cultures change, civilizations change throughout their existence too, this is the 1st if not the 2nd thing they teach you in humanity class.
you question should be, why do we say "China's civilization didn't have a definitive end"
simply, 4 out 6 of them was Conquered, languang and religious replaced. Indus slowly vanished, Indus scxt too. Lost of language and scxt is one of the marks the end of a civilization. The other one is religion.
next time ask chatgpt or post it in r/AskHistorians

在哪个宇宙里文化会完全不变？文化和文明都会在其存在的过程中发生变化，这几乎是人文学课上教你的第一或第二条内容。
你的问题应该是：为什么我们说“中国的文明没有一个明确的终结”？
很简单，因为六大古文明里有四个被征服了，语言和宗教都被取代。印度河文明慢慢消失，印度河文字也随之消亡。语言和文字的丧失通常被认为是一个文明终结的标志，另一个标志是宗教的更替。
下次你可以问问chatgpt，或者去r/AskHistorians发帖。

@Morph_Kogan
Mongolia is

蒙古是

@cordis000
They've lost their writing system, and Chinese has no.

他们失去了他们的文字系统，而中文并没有。

@GerFubDhuw
Bro the current Chinese state celebrated it's 80th birthday a few years back.
It's Orientalist nonsense to say modern China hasn't changed in thousands of years.
Back in Qin humans hadn't really developed the idea of nations yet. Mostly we identified with our town/city rather than a nation.
France and England are both about 1000 years old. Nobody would say the cultures of France and England have continued unchanged for 1000 years.
I'll speak to England because I'm from there but we've had a few civil wars, been an absolute monarchy, had a dozen dynasties rule, been a republic, went to a parliamentary monarchy, industrialised, and have had more than a dozen levels of suffrage and subject's/citizen's rights.
Nobody would say English culture hasn't changed since 1066. To portray China as this unevolving monolith is a discredit to its rich and dynamic history.

兄弟，中华人民共和国在几年前才刚刚庆祝了80周年。
说现代中国几千年来都没变，这种观点其实是一种东方主义的胡说八道。
在秦朝的时候，人类甚至还没真正形成“国家”的概念，大多数人更认同自己的城镇或城市，而不是国家。
法国和英格兰的历史大约有1000年，但没人会说法国或英国的文化在这1000年里一直没有变化。
我可以谈谈英国，因为我是英国人——我们经历过几场内战，当过君主专制政体，被十几个王朝统治过，当过共和国，后来变成议会君主制，还完成了工业化，关于选举权和公民权利也经历了十几次重大变化。
没有人会说英国文化自1066年以来就没变过。把中国描绘成一个几千年来一成不变的整体，其实是对中国丰富而多元历史的极大误解。

@biggamehaunter
China still has the same mandate of heaven.

中国依然拥有同样的天命。

@dowker1
Quick question: if you took someone, even an educated senior official, from Qin dynasty China, don you think they'd find it easy to fit in modern China? There's your answer.

闪问：如果你把一个人，甚至是受过教育的秦朝高级官员，带到现代中国，你觉得他能轻松融入吗？这就是答案。

@Key3892
First of all, of course culture doesn’t remain unchanged — everything is constantly evolving. Then, this is just my personal view: I believe that whether a civilization can be considered continuous depends on whether its people are still directly or indirectly influenced by it today, and whether they regard it as their own history.
In that sense, I would say yes — Chinese civilization has indeed continued to the present day. Thanks to a long-standing tradition of historical record-keeping over thousands of years (which, when compared with regional archaeological findings, is generally considered to be highly reliable), it’s relatively easy for later generations to form a sense of civilizational identity through the study of history.

首先，文化当然不会一成不变，一切都在不断发展演变。接下来说下我的个人观点：我认为，一个文明是否可以被认为是连续的，取决于今天的人们是否依然直接或间接受其影响，以及他们是否把它当作自己的历史。
从这个意义上来说，我认为中国文明确实延续到了今天。由于中国有几千年详细的史书记载传统（与地区考古发现相对比，这些记载普遍被认为是高度可靠的），后世人们通过学习历史，相对容易形成对这一文明的认同感。

@TheTerribleInvestor
I think its unfair to call China a country or nation for that entire period of time. Throughout that time China has unified broken up and unified again multiple times. Also the concept of a nation is a relatively new one. I think if you went to any region in any country where there were people they would only really claim they are from their local region.

我认为，把中国在那段整个时期都称为一个国家或民族是不公平的。在那段时间里，中国多次统一又分裂，再统一。其实“国家”这个概念本身也是相对较新的。如果你在任何国家的任何地区问当地人，他们大概只会认为自己来自本地的某个地方。

@FinancialImpress6386
nope

不行

@popofthedead
The only meaningful difference among old civilizations is China survived all odds and became huge and important, while still retain that ancient indentity. Other powers dont have identities as old, and other old nations are not powers.

古代文明之间唯一有意义的区别在于中国经历重重考验依然幸存下来，发展壮大成为重要国家，同时还保留着古老的身份。其他强国没有如此悠久的身份，而那些同样古老的国家如今却已不再是世界强国。

@SteakEconomy2024

我的太太福建 - 我是美国人

Only if you sextively define a civilization in a way no one would to exclude all other older civilizations, while simultaneously ignoring centuries of foreign rule by Mongolians and Manchu.

只有在你故意用别人都不会用的方式来定义“文明”，把其他更古老的文明排除在外，同时还选择性忽略了蒙古人和满族人对中国几百年的统治，这种说法才成立。