QA回答：F22"猛禽"战机是否能在战斗中彻底压制中国制造的隐身战机歼-20？

James Chrisholm
Base on the recent air war between Pakistan and India, where a legacy J10CE with BVR missile destroyed the best offered by Dassault and Sukhoi. Fortunately the F16 didn’t join the party or it would have been a complete flush.
基于最近巴基斯坦和印度之间的空战，一架配备超视距（BVR）导弹的老式J-10CE摧毁了达索和苏霍伊提供的最先进战机。幸好F-16没有参战，否则将是全军覆没。

F22 will be completely destroyed even before the pilot knew what happened. Current F22, F35 or SU57 will be get the ass wiped, so will the F47. A platform obsolete even by the time it reached paper. These platforms are based on legacy doctrine of dogfighting.
F-22甚至会在飞行员反应过来之前就被彻底摧毁。当前的F-22、F-35或SU-57都会被彻底击败，F-47也一样。这种平台甚至在图纸阶段就已经过时了。这些平台基于过时的狗斗（近距离格斗）学说。

China is already in the forefront of datalix, AI and network warfare. You just have to accept that the days of dogfighting like the Red Baron is the very much over since 2015.
中国在数据链、人工智能和网络战方面已处于前沿。你必须接受，像“红男爵”那样的狗斗时代早在2015年就基本结束了。


Zero
To correctly answer this, someone would need to have classified information about the F-22 and J-20 and have no bias.
要正确回答这个问题，需要有人掌握关于F-22和J-20的机密信息并且不带偏见。

First off. In war, anything is possible. An F-14 cannot shoot down a Su-57 if they're both operated by equally capable pilots. But it would never be that way in a real situation, the Su-57 could ignore the F-14 and lose in that way. You cannot give a definitive answer to a ‘who would win’ question as anything is possible if you consider how realistic combat goes. One plane is extremely rarely 100% better than another, especially when it comes to different countries aircraft of the same generation. So no matter what, no definitive answer exists.
首先，在战争中一切皆有可能。如果由能力相当的飞行员驾驶，一架F-14不可能击落一架Su-57。但在真实情况下绝不会是这样，Su-57可能会无视F-14，并因此输掉。你无法对“谁会赢”的问题给出确切答案，因为考虑到真实战斗的复杂性，任何情况都可能发生。一架飞机极少能100%优于另一架，尤其是涉及不同国家的同代战机时。所以无论如何，都不存在确切的答案。

Second, neither has faced another 5th gen fighter in real combat. Especially not one they don't already fight alongside. Who knows if they'll fight up close or at range.
其次，两者都未在真实战斗中面对过另一款五代机。尤其是面对非盟友国家的五代机。谁知道他们会在近距离还是超视距交火。

Third, the F-22 may be good but we don't actually know how good the J-20 is. Long range the F-22 has proven to be extremely good against 4th gen fighters. Up close it's a little better than 4th gen aircraft.
第三，F-22可能很棒，但我们实际上并不知道J-20有多好。F-22在超视距对抗四代机方面已被证明极其出色。在近距离格斗中，它比四代机稍好一些。

Fourth, canards do mess with stealth capabilities. But it might not be as much as you think, Boeing 6th gen fighter concepts feature them. Plus it could have classified technology that makes up for the canards. Both aircraft have classified tech.
第四，鸭翼确实会干扰隐身能力。但影响可能没你想的那么大，波音的六代机概念设计就包含了鸭翼。此外，它可能拥有弥补鸭翼缺陷的机密技术。两款飞机都拥有机密技术。

Propaganda and personal opinion are strong. Plenty of people will say the F-22 destroys because it's the best fighter ever. Some will say something similar about the J-20. Others will give half baked evidence to support either side, as well as people providing really good evidence.
宣传和个人观点影响巨大。很多人会说F-22能碾压，因为它是有史以来最好的战斗机。有些人也会对J-20说类似的话。其他人会提供半生不熟的证据来支持某一方，也有人会提供真正有力的证据。

It hasn't happened yet, so you won't get a definitive answer. If you want to justify your own opinion I can't help you there, but many will.
这（实战对抗）尚未发生，所以你不会得到确切的答案。如果你想证明自己的观点，我帮不了你，但很多人会这么做。



Hugh Caley
Assuming equal skill between the pilots (and American pilots practice a LOT more than their Chinese counterparts), the F-22A would destroy the J-20 from a distance, maybe before the Chinese pilot was aware of the F-22A. Its radar is superior, and its stealth is superior.
假设飞行员技能相当（而美国飞行员训练量远多于中国飞行员），F-22A将在远距离摧毁J-20，甚至可能在中国飞行员察觉到F-22A之前。它的雷达更优越，隐身性能也更优越。

If, miraculously, the planes should “merge” and it becomes a dogfight, the F-22A is both faster and more agile than the J-20, and would destroy it anyway.
如果奇迹般地两机进入“交汇”状态变成狗斗，F-22A也比J-20更快、更敏捷，无论如何都会摧毁它。


Willy Mack
Pilot training is what would say who wins in a situation like this. Now we do know that United States pilots train constantly there is very little rest between their training sessions. The United States does not like to spend money to train pilots and then lose them. I do not know what the Chinese training is like but I doubt that it is as good as the United States training. It is very hard to say who would win because for one thing we know what the F-22 can do we do not know for a fact what the j20 can do because the Chinese are very good at hiding the ability of their military assets. Also the F-22 has been used in combat I do not believe the j20 has ever been used in combat so one is a combat tested plane and the other has yet to be tested in combat.
飞行员训练将决定在这种情况下的胜者。我们知道美国飞行员持续不断地训练，训练间隙休息很少。美国不愿意花钱培训飞行员然后又损失掉他们。我不知道中国的训练情况如何，但我怀疑其不如美国训练那么好。很难说谁会赢，一方面我们知道F-22的能力，但我们并不确切知道J-20能做什么，因为中国非常善于隐藏其军事资产的能力。此外，F-22经历过实战，我不相信J-20有过实战经验，所以一架是经过实战检验的飞机，另一架尚未经过实战考验。


Mark Joshua
Yes at nearly all ranges the F-22 wins in a landslide. In a dogfight it absolutely destroys the J-20. At medium range it kills it easily. BVR the J-20 is dead as it’s stealth doesn’t even work. If somehow the J-20 can see the F-22 and the F-22 is alone and J-20 has ground fire. Then the J-20 wins but only if the F-22 is outnumbered and destroyed. And the F-22 has been in service for 10 years and the J-20 isn’t fully operational. Also the J-20 looks more like an attack jet with a huge fuselage.
是的，在几乎所有交战距离上，F-22都以压倒性优势获胜。在狗斗中，它绝对能摧毁J-20。在中距离，它能轻易击杀J-20。在超视距（BVR）作战中，J-20死定了，因为它的隐身根本不起作用。如果J-20不知怎地发现了F-22，并且F-22是孤军作战，而J-20有地面火力支援，那么J-20能赢——但前提是F-22被数量压制并被摧毁。而且F-22已服役10年，而J-20尚未完全形成战斗力。此外，J-20看起来更像一架拥有巨大机身的攻击机。


it’s engines give off the heat signature of a barn and the F-22 is gives off the heat of a small bird like a robin. Therefore the F-22 sees the J-20 far away and as Kylo Ren once said “Blow that piece of junk out of the sky.”
它的发动机发出的热信号像谷仓那么大，而F-22发出的热量像知更鸟这样的小鸟一样小。因此，F-22能在远处就发现J-20，正如凯洛·伦曾经说的：“把那堆垃圾从天上轰下来。”


Heather Barron
Just so we're clear... you're asking a bunch of people who have never flown said jets (or at best people who HAVE flown them but are sworn to secrecy about their capabilities) about a hypothetical dogfight in an unknown location in undefined strategic and tactical conditions with unknown pilot and unknown 3CI assets and about a thousand other unknown elements and you wanna know who would win?
先说清楚……你是在问一群从未驾驶过这些战机的人（或者最多是驾驶过但对其性能发誓保密的人），在一个未知地点、未定义的战略战术条件下、由未知的飞行员驾驶、拥有未知的指挥、控制、通信和情报（3CI/C3I）资产、以及大约一千个其他未知因素的情况下，进行一场假想的狗斗，然后你想知道谁会赢？

The only possible answer is "I don't know".
唯一可能的答案是“我不知道”。


Patrick Bindner
At the J-20’s present state of development, the answer is an emphatic yes. The J-20 is roughly at the point that the F-35 was in 2010. It is currently seriously underpowered & stealth compromised compared to both the F-22 & F-35. For the future-- who knows. If the F-22, F-35 & PAK-FA are indicators of the degree of difficulty in developing such an aircraft, it will be quite a long time before it is operational -- perhaps a decade (if ever). The PAK-FA, for example, looks very much like it will not go into production, despite Sukhoi's history of excellent design/development. So far, previous Chinese fighter developments have been underwhelming.
就J-20目前的发展状态而言，答案绝对是肯定的（F-22会赢）。J-20大致处于F-35在2010年时的水平。与F-22和F-35相比，它目前严重动力不足且隐身性能受损。至于未来——谁知道呢。如果F-22、F-35和PAK-FA（苏-57项目）可以作为研发此类飞机难度的指标，那么它（J-20）要形成战斗力还需要相当长的时间——也许十年（如果能的话）。例如，PAK-FA看起来就非常不可能投入量产，尽管苏霍伊有着卓越的设计/开发历史。到目前为止，中国之前的战斗机发展都令人失望。

Regarding the F-35 -- it is an excellent indicator of the extreme difficulty in developing aircraft of this class. The F-22 was a much easier task & the J-20 looks to be more complex than the F-22. The F-35, despite the silly nonsense in the popular press & outrageously dumb lobby lies, is an extremely dangerous combat aircraft. It is by no means inferior to the F-16, as has been widely blathered by the press following that notorious software test flight vs the F-16. There have been 2 very pointed indicators of the F-35's air combat capability -- the USMC full scale sim comparo of the F-35B vs the F-18E in 2011 & the recent F-35B IOC tests. In both cases the F-35 wiped the floor with F-18s & F-16s & did so against significantly unfavorable odds. In the run-up to the IOC tests, the F-35B won every single combat encounter against F-16C-50s. The Chinese have a very long road ahead of them.
关于F-35——它是开发此类飞机极端困难的一个绝佳例证。F-22的任务要容易得多，而J-20看起来比F-22更复杂。F-35，尽管流行媒体上充斥着愚蠢的胡言乱语和极其低劣的游说谎言，但它是一款极其危险的作战飞机。它绝不逊色于F-16，尽管在那次臭名昭著的软件测试飞行（对F-16）后媒体广泛散布了这种说法。有两个非常有力的指标证明了F-35的空战能力——2011年美国海军陆战队进行的F-35B对F-18E的全尺寸模拟对抗，以及最近的F-35B初始作战能力（IOC）测试。在这两次测试中，F-35都彻底击败了F-18和F-16，而且是在显著不利的对抗条件下完成的。在IOC测试的准备阶段，F-35B在与F-16C-50的所有对抗遭遇战中均获胜。中国还有很长的路要走。

As of Aug 2016, operational F-35As & F-35Bs have not sustained a single mock combat loss against the US “teen” fighters, defeating the F-15, F-16 & F-18E/EA-18G in every encounter. An F-22 pilot who engaged an F-35A in mock combat reputedly remarked that hassling with an F-35 is very much like fighting another Raptor.
截至2016年8月，已形成作战能力的F-35A和F-35B在对美国“青少年系列”（指F-15/16/18等）战机的模拟对抗中未尝败绩，在每次遭遇中都击败了F-15、F-16和F-18E/EA-18G。一位曾与F-35A进行模拟对抗的F-22飞行员据称评论道，与F-35缠斗感觉非常像在对抗另一架猛禽（Raptor，即F-22）。


Rishikesh Patil
Its too early to judge the J20. It is not even in active service yet. No one knows how much time it will take to become actively operational in the airforce.
现在评判J-20还为时过早。它甚至还没有正式服役。没人知道它需要多长时间才能在空军中完全形成战斗力。

The USAF had to wait almost a decade for the raptor, from showcasing the aircraft in airshow to putting it up in active service.
美国空军为了猛禽（F-22）几乎等待了十年，从航展上展示飞机到将其投入现役。

Looking at its airfrx, the J20 looks more like an attack aircraft than a fighter. It has a large fuselage, it can carry high load of ammunition, aspects which are seen in a attacker.
从其机体来看，J-20看起来更像一架攻击机而非战斗机。它拥有大型机身，可以携带大量弹药，这些都是攻击机的特点。


Chengdu J20 ‘Black Silk’
成都J-20 ‘黑丝绸’

In a combat between these two, the winner will be who has a smaller radar signature and Heat signature. The Raptor’s radar signature is a size of small bird, and it also has less heat signature, which makes it super stealthy.
在这两者的对抗中，胜者将是雷达信号特征和热信号特征更小的一方。猛禽的雷达信号特征相当于一只小鸟的大小，而且它的热信号特征也更小，这使它具有超级隐身性。


Lockheed Martin F22 ‘Raptor'
洛克希德·马丁 F-22 ‘猛禽’

J20 radars is not known, nor its heat signature.
J-20的雷达（性能）未知，其热信号特征也未知。

In close combat, I will bet on the Raptor, as it airfrx is more maneuverable than the J20.
在近距离格斗中，我会押注猛禽，因为它的机体比J-20更具机动性。


Julian Pereira
Yes.
是的（F-22会赢）。

The Chinese J-20 stealth capability is notional at best.
中国的J-20隐身能力最多只是理论上的（notional）。

The F22 proven.
F-22是经过验证的。

Remember the US uation of the Russian Foxbat Mig 25. The Foxbat was portrayed as a superfighter by the US intelligence services. The fighter where Russian technology had matched and surpassed US technology. The results, massive funding for the F14, F15, F16 and F18, actual super fighters (there were a few others that wont be mentioned).
记得美国对俄罗斯“狐蝠”米格-25的评估吗？美国情报机构曾将狐蝠描绘成超级战斗机。一架俄罗斯技术匹敌并超越美国技术的战斗机。结果呢？这导致了F-14、F-15、F-16和F-18（这些真正的超级战斗机，还有其他几款就不提了）获得巨额资金投入。

Do not be surprised if in a few short years, it will be found that the J-20 is not even as good as an F14.
如果在短短几年内发现J-20甚至还不如一架F-14，请不要惊讶。

If you are paying attention, the F22 proved to be un-affordable, due to its advanced technology. As far as can be determined, the Chinese do not seem to be running into this problem. Either the J-20s technology is very, very good and cheap, or it is just…
如果你稍加留意就会发现，F-22因其尖端技术被证明成本过高。而就目前所知，中国似乎并未遇到这个问题。要么是J-20的技术极其出色且成本低廉，要么就是......（暗示可能存在技术缩水或性能未达预期）