国外热议：越南和中国在1980年代都同样贫穷。截至2020年，中国的进步速度为什么比越南快得多？为什么越南和中国之间的差距越来越大？

Felix Su
Two things. There’s more but we’ll just stick to these two for now. Size and Capitalism. China went capitalist in 1976 after Mao died and Deng took over.

有两点原因。虽然还有更多因素，但我们先谈这两个：规模和资本主义。中国在1976年毛泽东去世、邓小平上台后开始走上资本主义道路。

China has a huge market due to it’s population. I am going to go with the theories from the West. Something else actually happened but it is simpler and easier so we’ll just go with Western idea of what happened.

中国由于人口众多而拥有庞大的市场。我将引用西方的理论。实际上发生的事情更复杂，但为了简单起见，我们就按照西方的解释来讲述。

Western firms wanted into the Chinese market. China had a condition. If you want in, then you have to transfer technology to China. They didn’t care if it was 3 generations old technology. Whatever you bring into China to sell, you must transfer the tech.

西方公司想进入中国市场，而中国则提出了一个条件：想进入市场，就必须向中国转让技术。中国并不在意这些技术是否已经落后了三代——只要你带来产品进入中国销售，就必须交出技术。

So Western firms thought about it and decided to give China their old technology and sell in China to make huge profits. It’s been almost 50 years.

于是西方企业权衡之后，决定用老旧技术换取进入中国市场的机会，从而在中国赚取巨额利润。这样的情况已经持续了将近50年。

Oh and a bonus event. China entered the WTO after negotiating with the US for 10 years in 2000. That lowered tariffs to and from China so it made Western firms even more profitable. So they did more business with China transferring more technology.

另外还有一个关键事件：中国在与美国谈判10年后于2000年加入了世贸组织。这降低了中国出口的关税，使西方公司利润更高，因此他们更加积极地与中国合作，转移了更多的技术。

Huijian Wu
In 1980, China was poor but had been building for 30 years, from 1950-1980, while Vietnam was at war all this time.

1980年时，中国虽然贫穷，但从1950年到1980年，已经持续建设了30年；而越南则一直处于战争中。

During the period 1980-1990, China opened up to the outside world, trading with the West and attracting Western investment. And at this time, Vietnam was occupying Cambodia, fighting a border war with China and being sanctioned by the West.

在1980至1990年间，中国开始对外开放，与西方国家贸易，并吸引西方投资。而与此同时，越南占领柬埔寨，与中国发生边境战争，并受到西方制裁。

In the period 1990-2000, China entered a phase of rapid development and Vietnam had just ended the war and was struggling to seek Western recognition.

从1990年到2000年，中国进入快速发展阶段，而越南刚刚结束战争，还在努力争取西方的承认。

These are the facts, and the facts are not complicated

以上就是事实，而且这些事实并不复杂。

Wei Zhang
In general, China had been peaceful since 1949 when No-one invaded it like Japan did to China before. But Vietnam was invaded totally by France, America and had war with China and the Chinese ally -Khmer Rouge from 1945–1991.

总体来说，自1949年以来中国一直相对和平，没有再像之前那样遭到日本那样的入侵。而越南则从1945年到1991年先后被法国、美国全面入侵，还与中国及中国的盟友——红色高棉发生战争。

Of course, China also had some small wars with America in Korea, Soviet unx, India and Vietnam but all of these war were just border conflicts with China.

当然，中国也与美国、苏联、印度和越南发生过一些小规模战争，但这些都只是边境冲突。

Also, before 1980s, China had its own industry with many of products from nuclear weapons, tanks, aircraft…..

此外，早在1980年代之前，中国就已经拥有自己的工业基础，能够生产包括核武器、坦克和飞机在内的许多产品。

In basic, Vietnam and China had no same position before 1980s even though both countries were poor too but Vietnam was poorer much than China.

基本上，虽然两国在1980年代之前都很贫穷，但越南远比中国更加贫困，因此两国当时并不处于同一发展水平。

After China betrayed the Soviet unx and leaked to the American shoes during 1980s, it has started to grow fast but Vietnam only did in 1995 after the Vietnamese-American normalization.

中国在1980年代“背叛”苏联，转而靠近美国后，开始迅速发展；而越南直到1995年越美关系正常化之后才开始发展。

William Yeo
You thought China was poor in the Mao era.

你以为中国在毛时代很穷。

That’s because Mao prepared thousands of tons of AKs, RPGs, MLRSs, grenades, shells, tanks, jets and food and supplies for a coming WW3.

那是因为毛准备了成千上万吨的AK步枪、火箭筒、多管火箭炮、手榴弹、炮弹、坦克、战机、食品和补给，以备未来第三次世界大战。

…in addition to the many superguns, ballistic and anti-ballistic missiles, nukes, longrange radars etc., that he built to protect his cities from a possible doomsday.

除此之外，他还制造了大量超级火炮、弹道导弹、反导导弹、核武器、远程雷达等，用来防御可能发生的世界末日。

And unlucky for Vietnamese. They happened to piss off china when Deng xiaoping, Mao’s successor, realized that he no longer needed these ammo for a never-to-come world war…

而越南很不幸，在邓小平（毛的继任者）意识到这些弹药已经不再需要用于永远不会到来的世界大战之际，激怒了中国……

So half of the ammos were showered onto Vietnam, and the rest half sold to mid-east.

于是，一半弹药倾泻在越南头上，另一半卖给了中东。

So they got rich.

因此中国因此致富。

Arch Stanton
Because China in the 1970s had an industrial base but Vietnam did not.

因为1970年代的中国已经拥有工业基础，而越南却没有。

White westerners simply do not know that China had a very large heavy industry in existence since the 1950s due to Soviet help and aid. This is due to China trying to emulate the Soviet unx’s success in industrialization.

白人西方人普遍不知道，从1950年代开始，中国在苏联的援助下建立起了庞大的重工业。这是因为中国试图效仿苏联在工业化方面的成功。

Westerner believe that the USSR was always decrepit and weak and nothing could be further from the truth. Before economic decline set in in the Soviet unx in the latter 1970s/80s, the USSR was an industrial giant.

西方人普遍认为苏联一直是个衰败又虚弱的国家，但事实远非如此。在1970年代末至1980年代经济衰退之前，苏联曾是一个工业巨头。

What Mao and the Chinese communist Party wanted was to do what the USSR had done in just under 2 decades and that was to turn the USSR from a pre-industrial country into an industrialized country.

毛泽东和中国***所希望的，复制苏联用不到20年时间从一个前工业化国家转型为工业国家的成功经验，完成苏联的工业化道路。

In fact that fast industrialization was very probably what saved the Soviet unx during the nazi invasion.

事实上，这种快速工业化很可能就是苏联在纳粹入侵时得以生存的关键。

Czarist Russia was a pre-industrial nation with SOME industry but no where on the level of the West. This low industrial base was one of the major factors that led to the Russian Revolution.

沙皇俄国是一个前工业国家，虽有少量工业，但远远落后于西方。这种低水平的工业基础是导致俄国革命的主要原因之一。

Czarist Russia had relied on the French for arms but World War One had made it impossible for France to get arms to Russia and Russia’s industrial base simply could not keep the Czarist armies supplied with arms and ammunition nor even food nor clothing.

沙俄依赖法国提供武器，但第一次世界大战使得法国无法再为俄国供给武器，而俄国自身的工业也不足以为军队提供足够的武器弹药，甚至连食物和衣物都供应不上。

This led directly to the Czarist troops mutinying and thus to the Russian Revolution.

这直接导致沙俄军队哗变，并最终引发俄国革命。

This fact was not lost on the Bolsheviks when they took power and they knew the USSR had to build up a large industrial base.

布尔什维克在掌权后深知这一点，因此他们明白苏联必须建立起强大的工业基础。

Starting in the latter 1920s, in the “5 Year Plans” the Soviets imported entire factories and processing plants from Western Capitalists.

从1920年代末起，苏联通过“五年计划”，从西方资本主义国家整套引进工厂和加工设施。

From these imported factories and plants, the Soviets learned how to create and build their own factories and plants.

通过这些引进的工厂，苏联逐渐学会了如何自主设计和建设自己的工厂和工业设施。

In a short decade the USSR had created an industrial base where the Soviet unx could start producing lots of steel for infrastructure building across the USSR as well as making tractors to transform farming across the USSR.

在短短十年间，苏联建立起了工业基础，可以生产大量钢铁用于基础设施建设，同时制造拖拉机以改造农业。

AND, of course these same factories could produce weapons for war.

而且，这些工厂当然也能制造战争所需的武器。

Hitler believed the nazis were invading 1916 pre-industrial Czarist Russia when in fact in 1941 it was invading a massive munitions factory that the USSR had become.

希特勒以为纳粹在入侵的是1916年的落后沙俄，实际上他们在1941年面对的是已然变成庞大军工厂的苏联。

From the massive war production of World War Two, the Soviet unx would emerge as a huge industrial power that would create their own passenger jet planes and send Soviet Cosmonauts into space.

通过二战期间庞大的军工生产，苏联成为了一个强大的工业国家，能够自主制造客机，甚至将宇航员送入太空。

Like mentioned, Mao and the CCP knew what the Soviets had achieved during the 1920s and 1930s and wanted to emulate that and thus the Mao and the CCP acquired large numbers of factories and plants from the Soviets during the 1950s to do what the Soviets had done 20 years earlier.

正如前文所述，毛泽东和中G了解苏联在1920至1930年代所取得的成就，因此在1950年代从苏联引进了大量工厂和设备，试图效仿苏联20年前的做法。

But there would be no repeat in China of what the Soviets had achieved because of Mao.

但由于毛的原因，中国并未能重现苏联的成功。

Stalin and the Soviets made a clear and concentrated and concerted effort to achieve a level of industrialization during the late 1920s and 1930s.

斯大林及其政府在1920年代末至1930年代专注且集中地推进工业化进程。

China acquired all the equipment to make the effort but Mao kept disrupting any industrialization efforts through endless economic and political schemes that Mao kept coming up with through the 1950s and 1960s and 1970s.

中国虽然也获得了完成工业化所需的设备，但毛在1950至1970年代不断推出各种政治与经济运动，反而屡次中断了工业化进程。

By the time of Mao’s death in 1976, China had achieved little industrialization. BUT, all those industrial plants and factories were there.

到毛1976年去世时，中国的工业化程度仍很低。但所有那些工厂和工业设施已经建好了。

It would take about a decade but the economic and political reforms of Deng would finally make use of all of that industrial infrastructure and thus China “finally” really “took off” economically by the early 1990s.

经过大约十年的调整，邓小平的经济与政治改革终于盘活了这些工业基础设施，从而让中国在1990年代初真正实现了经济“起飞”。

Meanwhile Vietnam is still just NOW acquiring the equipment and processes that will lead it to industrialize the nation AND to begin building much needed infrastructure.

与此同时，越南直到最近才开始获取实现工业化所需的设备和流程，也才开始大规模建设关键的基础设施。

Thanh Tung
This is a good question. To answer this question, I would like to briefly analyze the economic development context of China and Vietnam from 1970.

这是一个很好的问题。为了回答这个问题，我想简要分析一下自1970年以来中越两国的经济发展背景。

About China's economy

关于中国的经济：

China is a big country, ending civil war in 1949. China was a backward country before 1970.

中国是一个大国，在1949年结束了内战。在1970年之前，中国仍是一个落后的国家。

In 1972, China joined hands with the US and vigorously reformed the economy under Deng xiaoping.

1972年，中国与美国握手言和，并在邓小平的领导下大力进行经济改革。

After the reform and opening up, China's economy quickly developed to become the second largest economy in the world due to its advantages in population, cheap labor and investment of capitalist countries in China.

改革开放后，中国凭借庞大的人口、廉价劳动力以及来自资本主义国家的投资迅速发展，成为世界第二大经济体。

Currently, China's economy is about to break through the middle-income trap and will become the world's leading economy in about 10 years. China is competing with the US in a number of fields such as military, electronics, trade ...

目前，中国经济正准备突破“中等收入陷阱”，并有望在未来10年内成为全球第一大经济体。中国正在多个领域与美国竞争，如军事、电子、贸易等。

Personally, I think that China has made great achievements since 1980, which can be said to be miracles in Asia, which India has not been able to do.

就我个人而言，我认为自1980年以来中国取得了巨大成就，可以说是亚洲的奇迹，这是印度至今未能做到的。

About Vietnam's economy

关于越南的经济：

Unlike China, Vietnam's economic scale is smaller and Vietnam experienced many brutal wars and was under a long-term embargo until the end of 1994.

与中国不同，越南的经济规模较小，且长期遭受残酷战争的摧残，并一直受到国际社会制裁，直到1994年底才解除。

After independence in 1945, the French returned and re-occupied Vietnam.

越南在1945年宣布独立后，法国卷土重来，再次占领了越南。

The Viet Minh fought against the French for 9 years and defeated them at Dien Bien Phu forcing the French to withdraw from Indochina.

越南的越盟军与法国作战9年，在奠边府取得决定性胜利，迫使法国撤出印度支那。

The great powers did not let Vietnam unify. Vietnam is divided into two regions at the 17th parallel like South and North Korea.

大国并不允许越南统一。越南被分为南北两部分，界线设在北纬17度，就像朝鲜半岛那样。

However, unlike North Korea, North Vietnam did not accept the division of the country.

但与朝鲜不同的是，北越并未接受国家分裂的现状。

The North continued the war to unify the country in 1975.

北越继续进行战争，最终在1975年实现国家统一。

To unify the country, Vietnam defeated the Americans and lost 3 million in the 20 year war.

为了国家统一，越南击败了美国，付出了三百万人的代价，这场战争持续了20年。

After 1975, the US government remained hostile to Vietnam.

1975年后，美国政府依然对越南抱有敌意。

In 1972, the US shook hands with China to deal with the Soviet unx.

早在1972年，美国已与中国握手言和，共同对抗苏联。

Vietnam - China relations deteriorated, China provided financial aid to the Khmer Rouge to fight Vietnam in the South in 1977.

中越关系开始恶化。1977年，中国向红色高棉提供援助，让其在越南南方发动袭击。

In 1978, Vietnam fought the Khmer Rouge after the Khmer Rouge had attacked the entire border line, killing more than 3000 Vietnamese in Ba Chuc, in the territory of Vietnam.

1978年，红色高棉全面袭击越南边境，越南在边境的巴朱村有3000多人被屠杀，于是越南对红色高棉发动战争。

China launched an attack on Vietnam on February 17, 1979 to support the Khmer Rouge.

1979年2月17日，中国为了支援红色高棉，对越南发动了战争。

At this time, Vietnam - China relations are tense, but Vietnam still does not think that China will attack Vietnam.

当时中越关系非常紧张，但越南并未预料到中国会真的出兵。

The result was an extremely bloody war that lasted for 1 month and lasted for more than 10 years until 1989.

结果是一场极其惨烈的战争，虽然正面交火只持续了一个月，但边境冲突持续了十余年，直到1989年才完全结束。

When China withdrew, China destroyed all houses and infrastructure in 6 northern border provinces and continued to maintain the border war until 1989.

中国撤军时还摧毁了越南北部六个省的所有房屋和基础设施，并一直维持边境敌对状态直到1989年。

Vietnam was embargoed by the US for nearly 20 years until the end of 1994.

越南则遭受美国制裁长达近20年，直到1994年底才解除。

After two wars 1979-1989 with the Khmer Rouge and China and the US embargo, Vietnam's economy was always the poorest economy in the world in the period 1980-1990.

经历了1979-1989年与红色高棉、中国的战争，以及美国的长期封锁后，越南在1980-1990年间一直是世界上最贫穷的国家之一。

Period of peace and economic development of Vietnam from 1990

1990年后的和平与经济发展时期：

After Vietnam withdrew troops from Cambodia, Vietnam-China relations were normalized in 1991 after a treaty signed in 1990.

越南从柬埔寨撤军后，于1990年签署条约，并在1991年实现与中国关系正常化。

Vietnam-US relations gradually improved, the US lifted the embargo against Vietnam at the end of 1994.

越美关系也逐步改善，美国在1994年底正式解除对越南的制裁。

Vietnam really entered the period of peace from 1990. Therefore, it can be said that Vietnam has had time to build economy more than 30 years from 1990 to 2022.

越南真正的和平时期始于1990年，因此可以说，从1990年到2022年，越南已经有30多年的时间来发展经济。

In these 30 years, the Vietnam - US relationship has improved markedly since 1995, the US has become the largest export economy of Vietnam.

在这30年中，自1995年以来，越美关系显著改善，美国成为越南最大的出口市场。

In the 30 years, from 1990 to 2020 (end of war but still under embargo), Vietnam's GDP per capita increased from 100 USD to 3497.5 USD.

从1990年到2020年（虽然战争结束但初期仍受制裁），越南人均GDP从100美元增长到3497.5美元。

China has been a largest import – export relationship with Vietnam.

中国也成为越南最大的进出口伙伴。

This is a remarkable achievement, it shows that Vietnam's economy is on the right track after many brutal wars.

这是一个值得称赞的成就，说明越南经历多次残酷战争后，经济终于走上了正确的道路。

Conclusion:

结论：

China was at peace earlier than Vietnam, embarked on the socialist-oriented capitalist economic path earlier than Vietnam. Therefore, China has remarkable and amazing achievements.

中国比越南更早进入和平时期，也更早走上社会主义市场经济的道路，因此取得了非凡而惊人的成就。

However, looking at Vietnam's growth rate (watch the video), you can also see that Vietnam also has stable developments from 1990.

不过，观察越南的经济增长率（视频中有展示），可以看出自1990年以来，越南同样实现了稳定发展。

Currently, Vietnam is a unified, peaceful country with a high growth rate in the world.

如今，越南是一个统一、和平的国家，经济增长率在全球范围内都处于较高水平。

Many International organizations such as the World Bank, IMF, ADB... also assessed that Vietnam has been on the right track and had remarkable economic achievements over the past 30 years.

许多国际组织，如世界银行、国际货币基金组织、亚洲开发银行等，也一致认为越南过去30年一直在正确的发展道路上，经济成就显著。

Personally, I think that Vietnam's economic achievements are not as remarkable as China's, but we are not ashamed of Vietnam's 30 years of economic development since 1990.

我个人认为，越南的经济成就虽然不如中国那么辉煌，但我们对越南自1990年以来的30年经济发展并不感到羞愧。

With independence, Vietnamese people are also working hard and believe in the bright future of the Vietnamese economy.

在国家独立的基础上，越南人民也在努力奋斗，并坚信越南经济的光明未来。