中国是如何赢得钍核能竞赛的?
How China Won the Thorium Nuclear Energy Race
译文简介
网友:这正是石油行业最可怕的噩梦,难怪在西方根本得不到资金支持。
正文翻译
中国是如何赢得钍核能竞赛的?
评论翻译
很赞 ( 13 )
收藏
@Volp24k
The oil industry’s worst nightmare, no wonder this is not funded in the west
这正是石油行业最可怕的噩梦,难怪在西方根本得不到资金支持。
@凯杰冯-g8v
The U.S. abandoned its efforts on thorium-based molten salt reactors primarily because they require special heat-resistant alloys capable of withstanding temperatures up to several thousand degrees Celsius, coupled with severe high-temperature fluoride corrosion – issues that existing materials couldn't adequately address. China only recently solved the most challenging issue for these reactors by synthesizing a new nickel-based heat-resistant alloy material on its space station. Even so, frequent inspections and timely replacements are still necessary.
美国之所以放弃了对钍基熔盐反应堆的研发,主要是因为这种反应堆需要使用能够承受几千摄氏度高温的特殊耐热合金材料,同时还要面对严重的高温氟化物腐蚀问题,而现有材料根本无法胜任。中国直到最近才在空间站上合成出一种全新的镍基耐热合金材料,从而解决了这一最棘手的难题。即使如此,也仍然需要频繁的检查和及时更换部件。
@yuantan9292
As Chinese, I want to say that while China is ahead for now, this race is far from over. (This part is mentioned in the video) The current running reactor on the news, TMSR-LF1 (Thorium Molten Salt Reactor Liquid Fuel #1) is only a tiny (2MW thermal) pilot reactor. (This part slightly differs to the video) The next-step plans were to have two experimental reactors (TMSR-SF2 for "(pebble bed) solid fuel"(100 MW thermal) and TMSR-LF2 (10MW thermal)) operational by 2025. The latter has been delayed to 2029, and the former we don't know. Then there's a 100MW electricity small modular reactor demonstration plant (TMSR-LF3) planned by 2035, followed by a Gigawatt demonstration plant (name/date unknown). According to this timeline, even if everything goes according to plan, we might only see commercial deployment around 2050, and there are plenty of chances for it to get delayed, so Thorium is unlikely to solve any energy crises in the first half of the century. Source: World Nuclear Association - Molten Salt Reactors
作为一名中国人,我想说虽然中国目前在这场竞赛中领先,但距离真正的胜利还远得很。(视频中提到的部分)目前新闻中正在运行的反应堆 TMSR-LF1(钍熔盐液态燃料反应堆1号)其实只是一个非常小的(2兆瓦热功率)试验性反应堆。(与视频内容略有不同)接下来的计划是建成两个实验性反应堆:TMSR-SF2(“球床固体燃料”,热功率100兆瓦)和 TMSR-LF2(热功率10兆瓦),目标是2025年运行,但后者已推迟至2029年,前者的进展目前不明确。之后,还计划到2035年建成一个100兆瓦的电力小型模块化反应堆(TMSR-LF3)示范电站,最终目标是建设一座千兆瓦级示范电站(名称与时间未定)。按照这个时间表,即使一切顺利,我们可能也要到2050年左右才能看到商业化应用。而且计划很有可能再次被推迟,因此钍反应堆几乎不可能在本世纪上半叶解决任何能源危机。信息来源:世界核能协会——熔盐反应堆
@diogoalmeidavisuals
Chinese researchers- "This is pretty incredible technology, we are going to make it a reality!"
Americans reaction (instead of collaborating and working towards the greater common good) "We need to stop making this publicaly available!"
中国研究人员说:“这是极其惊人的技术,我们要让它成为现实!”
而美国的反应却是(没有选择合作或共同造福人类):“我们必须停止公开这些信息!”
@karlgustav1247
We don't want to do anything with this; publish the research; world is better off.
This is the perfect example of why you should publish your research if you don't see a future in it or don't want to do more research into it yourself.
我们根本不打算继续研究这个,应该把研究成果公开,这对全世界都有好处。
这就是为什么如果你自己不看好这项技术,或者不想继续投入研究,那就应该选择公开,让别人受益。
@devrim-oguz
There is also the accelerator driven thorium reactors. Which a Turkish scientist named Engin Arık was working on. But she tragically died in a plane crash with the rest of her team and many other scientists. (It was probably an assassination)
还有一种是加速器驱动的钍反应堆,土耳其科学家 Engin Arık 曾致力于这项研究,但她和整个团队以及许多科学家在一次空难中不幸遇难(这很可能是一场暗杀)。
@jagsahil
Great video! You briefly mentioned India’s efforts, but it would’ve been great if you had expanded on them a bit more—especially given how far along they are compared to most countries. India has been seriously pursuing thorium since the 1950s with its three-stage nuclear program. The KAMINI reactor has been operating for decades using U-233 bred from thorium, and the Prototype Fast Breeder Reactor (PFBR) is nearing full operation. They’re also developing the AHWR, which is specifically designed to run on thorium. While China’s recent progress is impressive, India’s long-standing and active thorium work definitely deserves more attention.
非常棒的视频!你简要地提到了印度的努力,不过如果能稍微详细展开一点就更好了——特别是考虑到印度在这方面相较多数国家其实进展更快。自上世纪五十年代以来,印度就一直在认真推进其三阶段核能计划中的钍利用。KAMINI反应堆已经运行数十年,使用的是从钍转化而来的铀-233。原型快中子增殖反应堆(PFBR)也即将进入全面运行阶段。此外,他们还在开发专门为钍设计的先进重水反应堆(AHWR)。虽然中国最近取得了令人瞩目的进展,但印度长期以来对钍的研究和实践也确实值得更多关注。
@cdanhowell
It's pretty unfortunate that the US didn't ever work on this. I mean, thorium isn't perfect - the salts used are highly corrosive - but the theory works and is significantly safer. The US certainly dropped the ball on this, as many have said for a long time...
Edit: Yes, I know we researched thorium reactors. My point with my comment is that we didn't continue the research, instead focusing on uranium and LWR technology. Thanks.
美国从未真正投入到这项技术上,这确实令人遗憾。我知道钍并不完美——使用的盐具有极强的腐蚀性——但它的理论是可行的,而且安全性显著更高。长期以来很多人都指出美国在这一点上确实失误了。
补充说明:是的,我知道美国曾经研究过钍反应堆,但我想表达的重点是美国没有持续推进,而是选择集中在铀和轻水反应堆技术上。谢谢。
@fredf888
The number 1 weakness of thorium reactor is the corrosive resistant piping. It is simply not corrosive resistant enough. Imagine that you have to replace the entire molten salt piping once every few years and you can understand why.
钍反应堆最大的问题就是管道的耐腐蚀性,这些材料根本不够耐腐蚀。想象一下,如果每隔几年你就必须更换整套熔盐管道,你就能理解为什么这项技术至今还难以推广了。
@cosmoosefarms5440
You know what, thank you bro for putting the ad at the end of this, I watched all the way through and gave you a like and a share because of that. That's nice to not be a victim of these predatory ads.
你知道吗?感谢你把广告放在视频结尾,我因此完整看完并点了赞,还分享了视频。这种方式真不错,让人不至于被那些侵扰式广告折腾。
@hippie-io7225
Maybe fusion research should have been put on hold in favor of Thorium reactor problem solving. Then to develop small scale thorium power plants.
也许我们当初应该暂停聚变研究,把资源投入到解决钍反应堆的难题上,然后开发小型钍能电站。
@corujariousa
I believe that one of the main advantages of thorium reactors is exactly why it was abandoned in the US: The move towards fossil fuel independence. The model can work in other societies, like China.
我认为钍反应堆最大的优势也正是它在美国被放弃的原因——它有能力摆脱对化石燃料的依赖。而在其他社会制度下,比如中国,这种模式却能运转起来。
@Ostentatiousnessness
I will say that 13 years ago when a classmate and I were doing a project in Year 12 Physics about a theoretical reactor design for our city and what it could be used for we actually went with an MSR for the reasons of safety and the ability to use if for desalination (and to possibly trial recycling the salt into cooling the reactor).
我想说的是大约十三年前,我和同学在高三物理课上做过一个关于城市用核反应堆的理论设计项目。当时我们就选择了熔盐反应堆,因为它在安全性方面的优势,还有用于海水淡化(甚至可以尝试把回收的盐再用于冷却反应堆)的潜力。
@arunaschlevickas322
Corect me if I'm wrong but thorium reactors still use pressurised water systems to harvest that power from that molten salt. So steam explosions could still happen and depending on design there could be radiation leaks because molten salt that would be radioactive would still need a fairly direct contact with water to heat it. The main difference that unlike Chernobyl, the reaction producing that heat would stop by itself and there would not be a full blown meltdown. So it is safer and the fuel would last longer than uranium reactors but it would still have its own risks and problems.
如果我说错了请纠正我,但钍反应堆依然需要加压水系统来从熔盐中提取能量。因此,蒸汽爆炸依然可能发生。根据设计不同,也可能存在辐射泄漏的风险,因为带有放射性的熔盐必须与水进行相对直接的热交换。它与切尔诺贝利的主要不同在于钍反应堆的核反应在事故中会自行停止,不会出现全面失控的熔毁。因此它确实更安全,燃料寿命也比铀反应堆更长,但它仍然存在自己的风险与难题。
@user-qf6yt3id3w
One issue with Thorium reactors is that you need to separate out the protactinium on site and allow it to decay to uranium 233 which you can put back into the reactor. Unfortunately the U-233 can be used to make nuclear weapons. Contrast this with a PWR using solid uranium. The reactor can be decoupled from the fuel reprocessing which is sensitive because plutonium, which can be used for nuclear weapons, is produced. However the PWR is designed not to be proliferating because it doesn't produce much plutonium. Now the uranium fuel for a PWR needs to be made from enriched plutonium. However, like reprocessing, the enrichment and fuel fabrication can be decoupled from the reactor. There are loads of countries with PWR power reactors which do not do enrichment or reprocessing. They have a contract with a fuel supplier who provides fuel rods and then takes them away to be reprocessed. Now with thorium you can't do this because you need to remove protactinium because it would otherwise poison the reactor. So that means every thorium reactor must remove the protactinium and allow it to decay into U-233 which is proliferating. Far from being proliferation resistant, thorium is a proliferation nightmare. Much worse than PWRs. As the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists put it "Thorium power has a protactinium problem".
钍反应堆的一个主要问题是必须现场分离原锕元素,让它衰变为铀-233,然后再投入反应堆中使用,不幸的是铀-233可以被用来制造核武器。相比之下,压水堆(PWR)使用的是固态铀燃料,反应堆与燃料后处理可以分离。虽然压水堆也会生成可以用于武器的钚,但其设计目标就是尽量不产生大量钚,从而降低扩散的风险。而且,压水堆的铀燃料需要通过浓缩和制造燃料棒来完成,这些过程也可以在反应堆之外进行。许多国家拥有压水堆电站,但并不具备浓缩或后处理能力,而是通过合同由燃料供应商提供燃料棒并回收处理。
但钍反应堆无法这样做,因为必须移除原锕元素,否则会毒害反应过程。也就是说,每一个钍反应堆都必须提取原锕元素,让其衰变成具有武器潜力的铀-233。这种系统远非“抗扩散”,反而是扩散的噩梦,比压水堆糟糕得多。正如《原子科学家公报》所说:“钍能源存在原锕问题。”
@ReapersRed
Thorium is actually easier to weaponize than traditional uranium fuel cycle reactors. You can get PURE (100% enrichment) U-233 (the second best weapons isotope) with chemical separation alone. I’m fine with that, but it’s something we can’t ignore.
钍实际上比传统的铀燃料循环反应堆更容易被用于制造武器。仅通过化学分离,就可以获得纯度高达100%的铀-233(这是第二优秀的核武器裂变同位素)。我个人对此并不反感,但这绝不是可以忽视的问题。
@yttean98
Not only China noted the potential of Thorium, India was another country which did lots of research since the 70's but did not get very far, even some of their scientist said Nuclear reactor based on Thorium is dead end.
Most of the materials from this video are available online and repeated here, get new materials e.g. China's Thorium reactor on Hainan island.
不仅中国意识到了钍的潜力,印度也是一个自上世纪七十年代起就在这一领域投入大量研究的国家。不过进展并不理想,甚至有印度科学家表示基于钍的核反应堆是条“死路”。
视频中的大部分资料在网上都能找到,而且只是重复了已有内容,希望能引入一些更新的材料,例如中国在海南岛的钍反应堆项目。
@sanatanihindu383
India is working on thorium nuclear energy from last 30 years, because India has largest thorium reserves in the world. Three-stage nuclear reactor is under construction, second stage is already achieved. If succeeded, then this will be game changer of India and other countries.
印度在过去三十年里一直在推进钍核能研究,因为印度拥有全球最大的钍储量。三阶段核反应堆计划正在建设中,第二阶段已经完成。如果最终成功,这将成为印度以及其他国家的重大转折点。
@danielhale1
The first half of the video felt very "Oceangate", complaining that the only thing holding back the next leap in innovation is big bad regulations; the comments section has me convinced these people didn't watch the full video. It's really important to fully immerse yourself in the reality check section of the video, and then follow up with other videos that more directly address these issues (e.g. Kyle Hill, who specializes in nuclear topics). The corrosiveness and destructive temperature of the molten salt is a much larger problem than the video makes clear. China is (supposedly) using a new material it invented that can (supposedly) handle this for longer. We didn't have that decades ago, and it's possible the technology just wasn't there to produce it way back when. Thorium wasn't just abandoned because it wasn't as useful for bombs, and it wasn't just killed by economics. The concept of a Thorium reactor is simple and incredibly appealing, but its actual application is immensely difficult. Remember we don't actually have any successful non-toy Thorium reactors. Every chart you see is comparing the practical reality of Uranium reactors with the pie-in-the-sky speculation about Thorium; the reality will be far more muted and nuanced. Thorium is legitimately exciting, but keep a hold of your heart. Hard science is not the place to rely on marketing hype.
视频前半部分看起来就像“Oceangate”事件一样,总是在抱怨说限制技术发展的是“可恶的监管”,但评论区让我确信很多人其实并没有完整看完视频。
大家真的应该深入理解视频中的“现实核查”部分,并继续观看更多专门探讨相关问题的内容(比如Kyle Hill的核能频道)。熔盐的腐蚀性和高温破坏性远比视频中描述的要严重。
据说中国使用了一种新开发的材料,可以在高腐蚀环境下使用更长时间,但几十年前我们根本没有这种材料,技术也可能还不具备。
钍反应堆之所以被放弃,并不仅仅是因为它适合制造核武器,也不仅仅是因为经济因素。钍反应堆的概念确实简单、吸引人,但在实际应用中却极其困难。
我们至今没有一个真正意义上的、成熟运行的钍反应堆。所有那些图表对比的,都是铀反应堆的现实成果与钍反应堆的美好愿景,现实情况会远远逊色得多。
钍反应堆确实令人激动,但也要保持理性。硬核科学可不是靠营销炒作能解决的。
@timothyhenry3841
The main issue of molten salt thorium reactors was not highlighted enough in the video:
The molten salt is highly corrosive and no piping material we know of so far can hold up for a longer operational time before needing replacement and becoming a major security risk.
This issue has not been solved yet to my knowledge.
China has not been open towards their solution to this problem or even stating if they have solved the issue at all.
The latter being much more probable as China is building many more conventional nuclear reactors instead of building any further thorium reactors.
视频中对钍熔盐反应堆的主要问题强调得不够:
熔盐具有极强的腐蚀性,目前已知的所有管道材料都无法在长期运行中保持稳定,必须频繁更换,否则会成为重大的安全隐患。
据我所知,这个问题至今尚未解决。
中国并未公开说明他们是否解决了这一难题,甚至连是否已经取得进展都没有明确表态。
后者的可能性更高,因为中国正在建设的是更多传统核反应堆,而不是继续推进钍反应堆。
@brightmal
It's a pedantic point, but I would argue with part of the narrative direction here.
I would suggest that the breakthrough Weinberg came up with wasn't so much the use of Thorium as a fuel, but rather the molten salt reactor idea.
A molten salt reactor can run the thorium-uranium cycle, or the uranium-plutonium cycle.
And they can be designed for thermal spectrum operation, or fast spectrum operation.
Moving away from solid fuel and water moderation, to molten salts is really the key breakthrough that enables all sorts of possibilities.
或许这是个吹毛求疵的问题,但我还是想对视频中的部分叙述方向提出不同的意见。
我认为Weinberg提出的真正的突破并不在于使用钍作为燃料,而是熔盐反应堆本身这个构想。
熔盐反应堆既可以运行钍-铀燃料循环,也可以运行铀-钚循环。
而且它既可以设计成热中子谱运行,也可以用于快中子谱运行。
从固态燃料与水冷堆技术转向熔盐方案才是真正打开无限可能性的核心突破。
@misahayase8854
Just like fusion's main issue is containment (caused by materials needing way more development and needing more understanding behind the science of plasma containment), thorium has serious game breaking issues.
Regular nuclear reactors deal with two main issues, intense heat and radiation, and can be countered by metals and concrete.
Thorium rxn adds a third main issue, since it requires molten salt which adds intense corrosion, which like kryptonite to metals.
Oak Ridge exp had lots of shut downs due to pipe clogging, and materials at that time couldn't reliably deal with the corrosion.
Way easier to tackle two issues instead of three or more, so the US went with tried and true nuclear reactors.
Plus making fissile thorium takes more energy into it than it generates, like the hydrogen fuel issue (hydrogen fuel takes more energy to make than it outputs, plus the energy vs mass requires high pressure storage and this brings weight, causing a safety issue and use in small things like vehicles, you know, cuz cars can crash).
Fusion has similar issue, it needs a fissile nuclear reactor to make the type of hydrogen most efficient in fusion rxns.
That said, thor reactors can be viable but have to spend research time and money into it, like materials development and refinement methods.
就像核聚变的最大难题是等离子体约束(材料开发严重不足,而且我们对等离子体约束科学本身的理解也还很浅),钍反应堆同样面临严重的“破局级”问题。
传统核反应堆主要面对两个难题:极高的温度和强辐射,用金属和混凝土还可以抵御。
但钍反应堆又增加了第三个难题——熔盐带来的强腐蚀性,对金属来说简直像氪石一样致命。
奥克里奇实验反应堆就曾因为管道堵塞频繁停机,当时的材料根本无法有效应对腐蚀问题。
相比之下,同时对抗两个问题远比三个问题更可控,所以美国最后选择了更成熟的传统核反应堆技术。
而且让钍变成可裂变燃料本身也很耗能,就像氢燃料问题一样——制造过程比它输出的能量还高,加上高压储存对设备的重量和安全性提出了更高的要求,这使它难以在像汽车这样的场景中广泛应用。
核聚变也有类似的问题,它本身还需要通过裂变堆来制造最适合的聚变用氢。
当然,钍反应堆仍然有前景,但前提是要花大量的时间和资金进行材料研发与提纯技术的突破。
@dan2304
Both generation 4 fast breeder reactors and thorium molten salt reactors have the potential to supply electricity for centuries.
However: Both are facing similar problems, the materials technology to reliably contain the harsh but different conditions in each of these reactors.
Those materials are not yet available and are at least a decade or so away.
第四代快中子增殖反应堆和钍熔盐反应堆都有能力为人类提供数百年的电力供应。
然而,两者面临着相似的问题——如何找到能长期承受各自极端运行环境的材料。
这种材料目前尚未问世,至少还需要十年甚至更长时间的研究与开发。
@YellowRambler
Just because they’re trying to use Thorium doesn’t make it a Thorium Molten Salt Reactor.
PWR with fuel rods have been known to try to make use of thorium, I think you may have included some of these.
Otherwise it was nice to see some Thorium history thanks.
仅仅因为他们试图使用钍燃料,并不意味着这就是钍熔盐反应堆。
有些配备燃料棒的压水堆(PWR)也在尝试利用钍,我觉得你的视频可能将这类情况也算进来了。
不过,能看到关于钍的发展历史还是挺不错的,谢谢分享。
@domingo2977
I once heard in another video years ago that "Inevitable by-products produced by thorium reactors is creating uranium 232 isotope which would degrade down to thallium 208 which produces 2.6 MeV gamma ray bursts; which is very high energy radiation also being hard shield for power plant staff".
I hope somebody here could dispute this though the video I got it from seemed pretty accurate & knowledgeable.
I’m still looking for it.
几年前我曾在另一个视频中听说:“钍反应堆不可避免地产生铀-232的同位素,这种同位素会衰变为铊-208,而铊-208会发射出2.6兆电子伏的伽马射线——这是一种极高能量的辐射,对核电站的工作人员来说很难屏蔽。”
我希望这里有人能反驳这个说法,虽然我当时看到的视频看起来既准确又专业。
我现在还在试图找到那个视频。
@CryptoNewsTV
Make mini at home reactors. Everyone gets unlimited energy for super low cost.
Then once a year you stop by and dispose of the waste and pile it somewhere for 100 years.
Now no solar panels or power lines needed. A clean beautiful future.
造些家用微型反应堆吧,这样每个人都能以极低的成本获取无限的能源。
一年处理一次废料,然后集中堆放一百年。
这样就不需要太阳能板和电网了。这是一个干净而美好的未来。
@MrDhalli6500
The half life of the Thorium waste is 30 years.
When radioactive material half life's 10 times it is no longer considered radioactive.
So the Thorium reactor waste half life is 300 years, then it's considered a heavy metal waste.
钍反应堆废料的半衰期是30年。
通常来说,放射性物质经过10个半衰期之后,就不再被视为存在放射性。
因此钍反应堆的废料在300年后就会被归为重金属废料。
@oscaryuen311
The issue of thorium is not exactly economical.
It is not that it can't be weaponized, it is because the energy output of thorium is not as great as uranium.
Imagine you need to import a 1000lb of thorium to have the same energy output as a 1lb of uranium.
That is like putting alcohol to run a car vs gasoline to run a car.
Also, imagine how much resources and the transportation is needed to extract thorium and refine it.
钍的问题并不在于安全性,而在于经济性。
这不是说钍无法用于制造武器,而是它的能量输出远低于铀。
想象一下,你需要进口一千磅钍才能产生相当于一磅铀的能量。
这就好比用酒精驱动车子和用汽油驱动车子的差别。
而且,想象一下开采、运输与提炼钍所需的资源量与成本,这几乎难以承受。
@frankkolmann4801
Your thumbnail is wrong. Thumbnail is a test fusion reactor. Thorium is a fission reactor.
Problem with Thorium, and also fusion reactors is the Gamma radiation they produce.
In the Sun the gamma rays produced are attenuated to UV visible light and heat by the time the gamma rays get out of the Sun’s core.
The gamma rays in Thorium reactors irradiate everything, and are difficult to convert to usable heat energy.
你的视频缩略图错了,那是一个试验性的聚变反应堆,而钍反应堆是裂变反应堆。
钍反应堆和聚变反应堆的问题都在于它们产生的伽马射线。
在太阳中,伽马射线在穿过太阳内部时会逐步衰减,最终变成紫外线、可见光和热能。
而钍反应堆中产生的伽马射线会照射到所有东西上,而且很难将其有效转换为可用的热能。