为什么中国那么未来，先进和技术发达，而美国看起来像个垃圾堆？

-------------译者：陌上花--- 审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

No-Gear3283
Although this may be a misleading fishing post, I am still willing to reply to you in good faith. Based on my shallow understanding and analysis, the fundamental reason for this situation is that the U.S. government is not responsible to the grassroots American people in its institutional design. It is responsible for the votes, and the results of the votes do not reflect the greatest public interests of the grassroots people. At the same time, the four-year election cycle leads each government leadership to not focus on long-term public interests, as they must prepare for the next election and are eager to show the public short-term benefits. Additionally, competitive opposing parties, in order to win votes, will criticize each other''s policies harshly, and may even abolish the previous administration''s policies outright after being elected. Such a political environment has led the government to be utterly ineffective in long-term, strategic public affairs.

虽然这可能是一个有诱导性的钓鱼帖，但我还是愿意真诚地回复你。根据我粗浅的理解和分析，造成这种情况的根本原因是美国政府在制度设计上不对美国基层民众负责，而是对选票负责。但是投票结果并不能反映基层民众的最大公共利益。与此同时，四年一次的选举周期使每届政府领导人都不注重长期的公共利益，他们必须为下一次选举做准备，因此急于向公众展示看得到的短期利益。此外，为了赢得选票，竞争激烈的党派会严厉批评对方的政策，甚至在当选后彻底废除前任政府的政策。这样的政治环境导致政府在长期的、战略性的公共事务中是完全失效的。

-------------译者：陌上花--- 审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

katojouxi
Your "shallow understanding and analysis" seem to be spot on

你的“粗浅的理解和分析”似乎很到位。

malversation3
China has some very high level infrastructure because (a) China developed later (b) the Chinese growth model for the last 30+ years has centered around infrastructure development (housing, trains, whatever.) The US industrialized earlier, so some of its infrastructure is consequently older. Additionally, the US isn’t a very dense place so some things (e.g., high speed rail) doesn’t actually make commercial sense in vast swathes of the country. That said, this isn’t really the case. Infrastructure is just one aspect of it and the reality most Chinese face a level of opulence far below the US — which isn’t exactly a slight as the US is the richest large nation on earth.

中国之所以有一些非常高水平的基础设施，是因为 1、中国发展较晚；2、在过去30多年里，中国的增长模式一直围绕基础设施建设（住房、铁路等）。美国工业化较早，因此部分基础设施相对老旧。此外，美国人口密度较低，因此有些项目（如高铁）在大片地区实际上并不具备商业意义。也就是说，基础设施并不能体现全貌。基础设施只是其中的一个方面，真实情况是，大多数中国人的富裕水平远远低于美国——这并不是贬低，因为美国是全世界最富裕的大国。

-------------译者：陌上花--- 审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

BOKEH_BALLS
The US isn't rich, its capitalists are. Hoarding wealth within a tiny minority leaves society impoverished.

美国老百姓没钱，有钱的是资本家。财富囤积在少数人手里会让整个社会陷入贫困。

SnooMacarons9026
China has billionaires too.

中国也有亿万富翁。

BOKEH_BALLS
Correct, however a billionaire could never walk around the NPC or ... and tell ***what to do. The interests of private capital are not allowed to rise above the authority of the state.

确实有，但是中国不会让这些人在人大或zz局指手画脚，让他们来指挥***做事。私人资本的利益永远不能凌驾于国家权力之上。

achangb
Thats the same as the USA too. When's the last time you saw a billionaire in the oval office telling the president what to do?

美国也是这样。你最后一次看到一个亿万富翁在白宫椭圆形办公室指挥总统做事是什么时候？

OGchickenwarrior
How many people walking around the Oval Office right now ARENT billionaires?

现在白宫椭圆形办公室里有多少人不是亿万富翁？

-------------译者：陌上花--- 审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

According_Ad_3475
some get executed every few years

每隔几年就有一些人被执行死刑。

not_particulary
Nah USA poor is still better than being poor elsewhere.

不过，在美国当穷人还是比在其他地方当穷人好。

Additional-Tap8907
Depends where the elsewhere is. Malawi or Myanmar? Yes. But I’d rather be poor anywhere with free health care and strong social safety programs (basically every other developed nation) than in the USA.

这取决于“其他地方”是哪里，是马拉维还是缅甸？那确实是当美国穷人好。但我宁愿在有免费医疗和完善社会保障的地方（差不多是所有其他发达国家）当穷人，也不愿意在美国当。

NyLiam
Brother, the US is extremely rich. If you are at least lower middle class in the US, your quality of life is better than 99% of the planet.

老兄，美国非常富有。在美国，你只要能混到下层中产，你的生活质量就比地球上99%的人要好。

-------------译者：陌上花--- 审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

Additional-Tap8907
Definitely not better off than 99%. That’s way too high. If you add up all the middle class, upper middle class and rich people in China, Japan, South Korea, all of Western Europe, you’re already at a couple billion people who arguably have better lives than lower middle class in the USA. Free health care and education alone makes this so, but also better public infrastructure, food standards and overall quality of life. Being lower middle class in the USA is a struggle compared to the rest of the developed world.

99%绝对夸张了，没那么高。如果把中国、日本、韩国和所有西欧国家的中产阶级、上层中产阶级和富人加起来，大概有几十亿，他们的生活肯定比美国的下层中产阶级要好。仅是免费的医疗和教育就能说明这一点，何况还有更好的公共基础设施、食品标准和整体生活质量。与其他发达国家相比，在美国成为下层中产阶级是痛苦的。

NyLiam
agree to disagree then.

让我们各自保留不同观点吧。

Additional-Tap8907
I don’t agree to anything, let me be more direct, your statement was not only ignorant but flat out wrong.

我不同意，让我说得更直接一点，你的说法不仅无知，而且大错特错。

-------------译者：陌上花--- 审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

WanderingLost33
Dude, I think some people are just in denial about how bad America has gotten in just the last 8 years, really 16, really 25. We live 7 fewer years than every other developed country because the majority of our country simply can't due to the structure and things outside of most people's control. It's bullshit. We should have state healthcare and instead spent that money blowing up millions of people in a sandbox for decades. What's the point of that?

老兄，我觉得有些人就是不愿承认美国在过去8年里，实际上是16年甚至25年里，变得有多糟糕。我们的预期寿命比其他发达国家少7年，因为我们国家的大多数人由于社会结构和一些超出大多数人控制范围的因素，根本做不到长寿。这太荒谬了。我们本应该有国家医疗保障，事实却是，几十年来，我们把那些钱用在了轰炸上。这有什么意义呢？

Additional-Tap8907
Yup, it really started to go down a path of slow decline in the 80s for the majority of the population if you look at the trends. Corporate propaganda media keeps the focus elsewhere.

没错，如果你看一下趋势，就会发现对于大多数人来说，从80年代开始，美国就走上了缓慢衰退之路。企业宣传媒体则把人们的注意力引向了别处。

BOKEH_BALLS
There is no "middle class" in the US. It's the top 10% and then pretty much everyone else.

美国根本没有“中产阶级”。只有最顶尖的10%，然后就是剩下的所有人。

BOKEH_BALLS
Equating richness to quality of life is your first mistake. Very few Americans are rich. Most are poor.

把财富和生活质量划等号是你的第一个错误。美国富人少，穷人多。

-------------译者：陌上花--- 审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

NyLiam
doesn’t actually make commercial sense in vast swathes of the country. This is cope. If Japan, France, Italy can justify building high speed trains, dont tell me it "doesnt make commercial sense" in the US. Dont tell me it wouldnt make commercial sense for there to be a sub hour or in some cases sub 2 hour train ride between New York and Boston, Huston and Dallas, Los Angeles and San Francisco, Detroit and Chicago, or hundreds of other routes, when these routes have dozens of full planes between them every single day. Again, this "high speed trains dont make sense in the us" bullshit is just an unimaginable level of cope.

在全国大部分地区不具备商业意义。这就是随便找个借口。如果日本、法国、意大利都能有合理的理由建设高铁，那就别告诉我在美国“不具备商业意义”。别告诉我，在纽约和波士顿、休斯顿和达拉斯、洛杉矶和旧金山、底特律和芝加哥之间，或者数百条其他线路上，实现不到1小时或2小时的火车车程不具备商业意义，现在这些线路之间每天都有几十架满载飞机往返。再次强调，这种“在美国建高铁没有意义”的屁话，真是明摆着把所有人当傻子。

malversation3
Take a look at population density in the US via-a-vis the countries you listed. There are some places where it does make sense (north eastern corridor, for example) but the US is vast swathes of nothingness.

看看你列举的国家的人口密度，再看看美国。有些地区（比如东北部走廊）确实可以建高铁，但美国大片地区人烟稀少，建高铁不划算。

-------------译者：陌上花--- 审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

NyLiam
again, cope, sorry. but the US is vast swathes of nothingness. So dont build them where they are not needed? LMao. Not that hard. China doesnt have high speed trains either in the deserts of western China. No excuses for the US for being the richest country on the planet but not having the obxtively best form of transportation currently available on the planet on the East and West coasts. Population density is maybe even higher or the same in these areas when you compare them to italy, france or japan.

再说一次，这就是逃避的借口。不过美国确实有很多地区地广人稀，所以为什么不能因地制宜，不需要高铁的地方不修不就行了？呵呵，这也不难啊。中国也没在西部沙漠地区修建高铁。美国作为世界上最富有的国家，没有理由不在东西海岸采用当前地球上最好的交通方式。这些地区的人口密度与意大利、法国或日本相当甚至更高，有什么理由拒绝高铁。

-------------译者：Razor87--- 审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

malversation3
You’re such a weird individual. Not sure why you feel the need to throw in remarks like, “cope” rather than just discussing the topic. I don’t really care if the US has high speed rail or not — I prefer flying personally. The US does have some high speed rail in the Northeast, from what I can tell the reason why it’s not completely HSR is as follows: (1) Amtrak doesn’t own most of the tracks they actually use. Most of them are owned by cargo train companies who don’t care about high speed rail. (2) Amtrak up until recently really hasn’t made much money. This is largely because they’re legally required to operate lines that run at a loss by Congress, compounding the first issue as they didn’t have the money to build out their own tracks. This is changing though, apparently they’ve improved their financial situation and have begun investing billions into their network. The only realistic HSR line on the west coast would be between LA and SF. The problem there is property rights and nimbyism, hence why it hasn’t been completed despite billions in funding. The population density on both coasts comes nowhere close to Japan, the east coast is even less than Italy (west coast is nowhere close), east coast has more pop density than France west coast doesn’t.
malversation3

你真是个怪胎。搞不懂你为啥非要说别人“酸”，而不是好好讨论问题。美国有没有高铁我压根不在乎——我自己更喜欢坐飞机。美国东北部确实有高铁，据我了解没全面铺开的原因就两点：一是Amtrak用的轨道大部分都不是自己的，归货运公司管，人家根本不care高铁提速；二是Amtrak之前基本不咋赚钱，主要因为国会逼他们运营赔钱线路，跟第一条叠加直接导致没钱自建轨道。不过听说最近财务好转了，开始砸几十亿升级网络。西海岸唯一靠谱的高铁线应该是洛杉矶到旧金山那段，卡在产权纠纷和钉子户死活不让道，烧了上百亿还是烂尾。东西海岸人口密度跟日本完全没法比，东海岸连意大利都不如（西海岸更拉跨），东海岸比法国西海岸稍强点但也没啥优势。

-------------译者：Razor87--- 审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

Additional-Tap8907
That’s why high speed rail makes sense lixing cities in regional corridors. We don’t seem to have the will to get it’d own though.
Additional-Tap8907

这就是为什么在区域走廊中的城市间修建高铁是有意义的。但我们似乎缺乏实现这一目标的意愿。

blueplanet96
Not only that, but in terms of infrastructure C is also really notorious for not building things properly and according to spec. It’s such a problem that buildings routinely collapse in mainland C, we just don’t usually see it because the CCP manages to censor it. Corner cutting is the hallmark of really anything that gets built in C.
blueplanet96

不仅如此，而且在基础设施方面，C也因不按规范施工而臭名昭著。。。建筑物经常xx，只是我们通常看不到，因为..会设法封锁消息。偷工减料是C建造的任何东西的显著特征。

Additional-Tap8907
This is such propaganda bs. Do buildings ever collapse in China? Sure. But aging buildings and bridges have been collapsing all over the USA too where it’s arguably a worse problem
Additional-Tap8907

这纯属宣传扯淡。中国发生过建筑物倒塌吗？当然有。但美国各地老化的建筑和桥梁也在不断倒塌，甚至可以说问题更严重。

-------------译者：Razor87--- 审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

MindlessPackage5968
whatistofubuildings?
MindlessPackage5968

什么是豆腐渣工程？

Gamepetrol2011
Tofu buildings are only in poorer and less known areas
Gamepetrol2011

豆腐渣工程只会出现在贫困偏远地区。

Additional-Tap8907
Should opulence the goal for any society? Or well being, flourishing and happiness for all?
Additional-Tap8907

难道每个社会都得死磕大富大贵？还是说，全民福祉、欣欣向荣、人人幸福才更该是目标？

malversation3
Those are vague and vacuous things. With that being said, Living in Shenzhen I can say I don’t think the average Chinese has those things; I also don’t think this is particularly controversial as they will tell you that themselves.
malversation3

这些玩意儿纯属假大空。不过说真的，我在深圳生活可以告诉你，普通中国人并没有这些；而且我觉得这根本没什么好杠的，他们自己都会承认这一点。

-------------译者：liaoh 99--- 审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

Additional-Tap8907
Yeah Shenzhen kind of represents everything that is wrong with modernity generally and in China specifically. It is one of the most socially isolated, detached from family and culture places on earth. It’s all about business and the rat race. Modern China neglects the human flourishing in a lot of ways, never said it was perfect. Western culture and the U.S. in particular has other areas in need of improvement. I don’t think human flourishing is vague or vacuous it’s literally the foundation for humanism.

深圳确实代表了现代性（尤其是中国语境下）的种种弊端。它是地球上最社会原子化、家庭关系疏离、文化传统断裂的地方之一。这里的一切都被商业逻辑支配，人们像困在滚轮里仓鼠般疯狂内卷。现代中国在追求发展时，确实在人性关怀层面存在诸多缺失——我从未说过它完美。当然西方文明尤其是美国同样存在其他改进空间。但我不认为强调人的全面发展是空泛概念，这恰恰是人文主义最核心的根基。

Virtual-Pension-991
You have internet but no ability to search. Haiyaaaaaaa

有网却不会搜呀，哈哈哈

Sorry_Sort6059
This issue is so huge, a political, economic, and historical synthesis, that if it is possible whether it is possible to subdivide the issue. For example, infrastructure

这个问题太过宏大，作为政治、经济与历史的综合体，首先需要明确它是否具备可拆分性。例如，我们可以从基础设施这个切面入手进行分析。

-------------译者：Razor87--- 审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

Prestigious_Ad_9007
:) because some rich asshole in US wants to wipe his ass with golden toilet paper. And government does anything to provide him this opportunity.
Prestigious_Ad_9007

笑死，还不是因为美国有些土豪非要拿金厕纸擦屁股。政府还变着法儿满足他。

GuyOnTheMoon
And that rich asshole and his friends are pretty good at convincing the dumb half of Americans individuals with limited access to information to continue voting against their own interests.
GuyOnTheMoon

关键是这些土豪和他们那帮哥们儿，特擅长忽悠美国那群信息闭塞的铁憨憨，让他们继续投票给自己挖坑。

Upstairs_Bed3315
Americans also dont necessarily want cities like that. The public transport yeah but people are very against public surveillance until recently. Its a different culture. They also probably wouldnt be fans of mega cities, or drones. I remember they put up red light cameras in New Jersey and there was a public uproar around 2009, and the courts ruled they couldnt use the cameras so a lot of them are there but deactivated.
Upstairs_Bed3315

美国人其实也不稀罕那种城市模式。公共交通是想要，但公共监控？直到最近他们都强烈反对。这就是文化差异。他们对超级都市、无人机啥的也大概率也不感冒。记得2009年新泽西装红灯摄像头，民众直接炸锅，法院判这玩意儿违法，结果现在一堆摄像头成了摆设。

-------------译者：学乖〖笑意〗--- 审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

Winatop
Hahahaha

哈哈哈

SenpaiBunss
not every single city in china is first tier. much like every other country, there are dumps in china too

中国不是每个城市都是一线城市。就像其他国家一样，中国也有垃圾城市

vellyr
Yeah, but there are no tier 1 Chinese cities in America.

是的，但美国没有中国那样的一线城市。

SenpaiBunss
This is true too

这也是真的

candymaster4300
Because they stole all of America’s technology and have cheap labour to implement it

因为他们偷走了美国所有的技术，并且拥有廉价的劳动力来实施这些技术

-------------译者：Razor87--- 审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

Savings-Elk4387
Because you overpay workers, encourage strikes, protect nimbys, fund homelessness and pass policies that are morally correct but economically harmful. You believe you are entitled for a life with a 9-5 job, job security, single income that supports a family of five, a car and a house, which is not possible anywhere in the world
Savings-Elk4387

还不是因为你们给工人开虚高工资，变着法儿鼓励罢工，惯着那些钉子户，撒钱养流浪汉，还搞些听着高尚实则败家的政策。你们丫的居然觉得朝九晚五摸鱼、饭碗铁打、一人搬砖养五口、有车有房是天经地义？这标准放哪个星球能实现啊？

Open_Issue_
Because you're a muppet who consumes way too much anti-American Chinese propaganda without doing any critical thinking or further research yourself?
Open_Issue_

因为你丫就是个只会无脑嗑中式抗美小药丸，连基本调研都懒得做的提线木偶呗？

Infamous-Flower-5820
If China is so much better why are thousands of your citizens trying to emigrate to the “dump” illegally and legally? Explain that for us.
Infamous-Flower-5820

既然中国那么牛批，咋还有成千上万的人拼了老命偷渡或合法润去你们口中的"垃圾堆"？这波操作给哥解释解释？

-------------译者：Razor87--- 审核者：龙腾翻译总管------------

PeoplesCongress
Low crime, quality education, better benefits, etc. People say China’s government doesn’t work, but it clearly does, they’re innovating more and more everyday, and the CPC is steadfast in making sure their country comes out on top.
PeoplesCongress

犯罪率低、教育硬核、福利杠杠的，而且不限于此。总有人哔哔中国政府拉胯，可现实是他们的创新日新月异，***铁了心要把中国拱上C位。

Top_Dimension_6827
Who says it doesn’t work? From what I read and hear most are impressed by it’s efficiency and long term planning. The only complaints I see relate to dictatorial capture, post-dictatorial succession and heavy handedness.
Top_Dimension_6827

谁特么说拉胯了？我所见所闻全是夸他们办事麻利，并且规划很有远见。喷子也就只能叨叨些权力世袭黑箱操作、铁腕统治之类的车轱辘话。

Infinite-Chocolate46
What is meant by 'better benefits'? The welfare system?
Infinite-Chocolate46

“福利杠杠的“怎么说？全民发钱躺平那种？

Jynx_the_Ghost
Because you haven’t been to Wuhan or Tangshan
Jynx_the_Ghost

因为你没去过武汉（暴雨水漫地铁），也没去过唐山（烧烤打人事件）