QA回答：中国的歼-20与美国的F-35相比如何？

Michael X
The concept behind them are every different. Let me talk about the logic behind the F-35 first. The US military was obsessed with technical and numerical advantage over their opponents. Engaging a peer competitor and gambling on the result was never part of their plan. Therefore, their plan was using the F-35 taking down all the 4th gen fighters and then use their numerical advantage against a few 5th gen left. The logic behind the F-35 program was they could produce a lot of them relatively cheap and fast, and that goal was achieved mostly.
它们的设计理念截然不同。让我先谈谈F-35背后的逻辑。美军痴迷于对对手的技术和数量优势。与同级别对手交战并赌上胜负从来不是他们计划的一部分。因此,他们的计划是用F-35消灭所有第四代战机,然后利用数量优势对付剩下的少量五代机。F-35项目的逻辑在于能够以相对低廉的成本快速大量生产,这个目标基本实现了。

How do you even take down a 5th gen? What are their weaknesses? All the 5th gen are very stealth in the front, not so much in other angles. If a 5th gen suddenly found enemy fighter jets approaching in its 6 oclock position, it's over. In order to checkmate the F-35, it will have to out maneuver it in a much larger radius(bvr), which is going to require much higher speed and range. Taking that concept, you get the J-20.
如何击落五代机?它们的弱点是什么?所有五代机正面隐身性能很好,但其他角度就没那么强。如果一架五代机突然发现敌机从6点钟方向接近,那就完了。为了将死F-35,必须在更大半径范围内(bvr)超越它的机动性,这需要更高的速度和航程。基于这个概念,就有了歼-20。

For the 6th gen, every player is going to emphasize the important of much larger combat radius, higher speed, all angle stealth, larger internal weapons bay, and more computing power. Canards are bad for stealth, but not when they are on the American fighter jet.
对于第六代战机,每个参与者都会强调更大的作战半径、更高的速度、全向隐身、更大的内置弹舱和更强的计算能力。鸭翼对隐身不利,除非是在美国战机上。

PS: Stop commenting the network centric warfare, the PLAAF took it more seriously than the Americans who invented it.
PS:别再评论网络中心战了,解放军空军比发明它的美国人更重视这个概念。


Bill Chen
The f-35 will NOT be able to establish air superiority against the j-20.
The f-35 is not a "I can hit you where you can't hit back" platform against the j-20.
The j-20, in tandem with ground and air assets providing EW and sensor network coverage, is a formidable proposition to penetrate and challenge, let alone destroy.
But of course, the Anglophone will not believe the status quo until the shooting concludes.
I will end here.
F-35无法对歼-20建立空中优势。
F-35并非对抗歼-20时"我能打到你而你还不了手"的平台。
歼-20与提供电子战和传感器网络覆盖的地面及空中资产协同作战时,是极难穿透和挑战的存在,更别说摧毁了。
当然,英语国家的人不到开战那一刻是不会相信现状的。
我就说到这里。


Clifford Nelson
From what I have heard, and can see, the J-20 and the F-35 are designed for different missions. This seems to be the conclusion of Millenium 7. Often see these pictures of the F-35.
据我所知所见,歼-20和F-35是为不同任务设计的。这似乎是Millenium 7的结论。经常看到F-35的这些照片。

The F-35 is supposed to replace everything, but the funny thing is that the design is heavily biased towards steatlh. That means that other aspects of plane performance were compromised to improve stealth, and cost trade-offs would have increased cost, including costs for maintenance. To put any external stored on a stealth aircraft basically destroys the stealth since there is no way to avoid radar traps with junk hanging down, expecially on the wings. They did increase the size of the weapons bay, but that came at a massive increase in weight, and there are a lot of weapons that will not fit.
F-35本应取代所有机型,但有趣的是其设计严重偏向隐身。这意味着为了提升隐身性能牺牲了飞机其他方面的性能,成本权衡也增加了包括维护在内的总成本。在隐身战机外挂任何东西基本上就破坏了隐身性,因为机翼下悬挂的杂物无法避免雷达探测。他们确实增大了武器舱尺寸,但这导致重量大幅增加,而且很多武器仍然无法内置携带。

Weapons that generally won't fit in the F-35's internal weapons bay include large, bulky missiles like the Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile-Extended Range (JASSM-ER), which due to their size, would compromise the aircraft's stealth profile if carried internally; some variants of the Joint Strike Missile (JSM) may also not fit depending on the F-35 model, particularly the F-35B with smaller internal bays; and very large bombs that exceed the bay's dimensions.
通常无法装入F-35内置武器舱的武器包括:大型笨重的导弹如联合空对地防区外导弹-增程型(JASSM-ER),由于其尺寸,即使内置携带也会影响飞机隐身性能;某些型号的联合打击导弹(JSM)根据F-35型号也可能无法装入,特别是内置弹舱较小的F-35B型;以及超过弹舱尺寸的超大型炸弹。

So to fly many missions either it will not be able to carry the payloads of existing aircaft carry and maintain steath, or may not even be able to be steath at all because the weapons will not fit internally. This will be particularly a problem with many sensor or electronic warfare packages since they have to be carried externally to work. And when it is effectively not stealth, it is probably not going to be as effective as existing aircrafft given the design tradeoffs to maximize stealth had to compromise other attributes. Effectively the F35 was a rediculous idea. It optimized for a very few missions, and all others it will almost certainly operate at a disadvantage.
因此执行许多任务时,要么无法携带现有战机的有效载荷同时保持隐身,要么因为武器无法内置而完全无法隐身。这对许多传感器或电子战套件尤其成问题,因为它们必须外挂才能工作。当它实际上不具备隐身性时,考虑到为最大化隐身而牺牲其他性能的设计权衡,它可能还不如现有战机有效。实际上F35是个荒谬的想法。它只为极少数任务优化,在其他几乎所有任务中几乎都处于劣势。

I do not think that the J-20 has evern been seen with external stores. It appears to be more like the F-117 (never see that with external stores either) than the F-35 in that it is designed for the same sort of mission, which is a penetration attack aircraft. In the case of the Chinese it is probably intended to penetrate American air defence screens and then attack obxts like support aircraft (AWACS, tankers and transports) or support ships. Maybe even attack combat ships. It seems unlikely it is intended for anti-air. Use it to destroy American logistics, and without supplies, the US basically has serious capaability degredation. For a stealh aircraft this makes a lot more sense than trying to make a multi-mission aircraft. For that the F-35 seems to be a dismal failure just because it was a idiot decision to try to build a multimission aircaft that is optimized for steatlh. Much better to optimize for stealth in a purpose built aircraft like the F-117. Then have sensors integrated that are needed for the mission and the internal stores only has to be big enough to accomodate specific weapons needed for the specific mission and not oversized so that it can fit a lot of different weapons.
我认为从未见过歼-20外挂武器。它看起来更像是F-117(也从不见外挂武器)而非F-35,因为它是为同类任务设计的,即穿透攻击机。对中国而言,它可能是用来穿透美国防空网,然后攻击支援飞机(预警机、加油机和运输机)或支援舰船。甚至可能攻击作战舰艇。它似乎不太可能是用于防空。用它摧毁美国后勤,没有补给,美军基本上就会严重丧失作战能力。对隐身战机来说,这比试图造多用途战机合理得多。在这方面F-35似乎是惨败,只因试图造一款隐身优化的多用途战机是个愚蠢决定。像F-117这样专门设计的飞机优化隐身性能要好得多。然后集成任务所需的传感器,内置弹舱只需足够容纳特定任务所需的特定武器,而不必过大以适配多种不同武器。


Dominik Schachtsiek
Its bigger, faster, has a longer range, but it is also dumber, doesn't have sufficient stealth.
I believe, that the J-20 doesn't offer the force-multiplier, which would give a real 5th generation jet the edge over a 4th generation fighter jet.
它更大、更快、航程更长,但也更笨拙,隐身性能不足。
我认为歼-20不具备真正五代机相对于四代机的力量倍增优势。


Kurt Black
You Americans just deceive those allies who bought your planes, don't deceive yourself.
Yes, the F35 does not pursue the ultimate flight speed, nor the ultimate performance, but all-around.
The result became a four-dimensional image.
The maximum flight speed of the F35 is only Mach 1.6.
OK.
The new J35 supersonic cruise has Mach 2.3.
And the F35 is now difficult to continue production because China has restricted the export of key raw materials.
Is the F35 really considered a fifth-generation aircraft? It's not even as good as the F22 from over forty years ago.
The F22, a fifth-generation aircraft, is a fifth-generation old aircraft with a maximum speed of Mach 2.25, a normal supersonic cruise of less than Mach 2, a maximum range of only more than 2,000 kilometers, and a maximum combat radius of 800.
The J20's normal supersonic cruising speed exceeds Mach 2.5, and its maximum speed is Mach 2.8. Now there is also a two-seater J20S.
Oh, I forgot.
Now the United States cannot produce F22.
Because the production line is gone.
你们美国人只是欺骗那些买了你们飞机的盟友,别骗自己了。
是的,F35不追求极限飞行速度,也不追求极限性能,而是追求全面。
结果变成了四不像。
F35的最大飞行速度只有1.6马赫。
好吧。
新型J35的超音速巡航有2.3马赫。
而且F35现在难以继续生产,因为中国限制了关键原材料的出口。
F35真的能算五代机吗?它甚至比不上四十多年前的F22。
F22作为五代机,是一款老旧的五代机,最大速度2.25马赫,常规超音速巡航不到2马赫,最大航程仅2000多公里,最大作战半径800公里。
歼20常规超音速巡航超过2.5马赫,最大速度2.8马赫。现在还有双座型的歼20S。
哦,我忘了。
现在美国造不了F22了。
因为生产线没了。


Phantom Chuck
that's something until shots are fired is unlikely to be resolved beyond obfuscation by jingoistic presumption and unsourced hearsay.
It seems likely the practical material differences in stealth, maneuverability and sensor capabilities are much less than jingoists on either side can't stand but to believe. The actual outcome in a contest will be determined by:
Combat circumstances
Pilot training
efficiency of ground crew in sustaining number of operational planes and sortie rate
efficacy of ordnance
efficiency of collaboration between different platforms
在真正开火前,这个问题不太可能超越沙文主义假设和无来源传闻的混淆而得到解决。
双方沙文主义者不愿相信的是,隐身性、机动性和传感器能力的实际物质差异可能远小于他们的想象。实战结果将取决于:
战斗环境
飞行员训练
地勤人员维持可用飞机数量和出动率的效率
武器效能
不同平台间的协作效率


Dominik Schachtsiek
Obviously it is difficult to say - however there are some clues:
the shape and size of the J-20 seems to prospect an interceptor. This seems quite unusual (the last interceptors were built several decades ago - planes like the F-4 or Mig-25/31). This also means, that weapons load could be superior to the one of F-35 or F-22...
The fact, that China has literally no experience on stealth (as well as copy-pasting American designs) make it quite obvious, that stealth will be rudimentary at best.
Avionics: the F-22 and F-35 are best in class when it comes to avionics. The Chinese aren't that great - there are a lot of clues, that they didn't even come close to aging Russian avionics - that could change in half a decade or so - but at this point, avionics are pretty bleak.
Engines: The J-20 uses old Mig-29 derived engines. They are very "unstealthy" they are smoking and aren't really efficient. China seems not to be close to produce their own high performance cutting edge engines - hence top line performance also goes to the American jets, which are top of the class with their engines.
Overall the F-35 and F-22 could see the J-20 when the J-20 sees nothing but blue skies, the American jets can track and shoot down a J-20, when the J-20 doesn't even realizes that there is a real hazard (get the picture: a lightning strike out of the blue or getting attacked by a raptor...).
显然很难下定论 - 但有一些线索:
歼-20的外形尺寸似乎预示它是截击机。这很不寻常(上次建造截击机是几十年前 - 如F-4或米格-25/31)。这也意味着其武器载荷可能优于F-35或F-22...
中国实际上没有隐身技术经验(以及抄袭美国设计)的事实很明显表明,其隐身性能最多只是初级水平。
航电:F-22和F-35的航电是同类最佳。中国的并不出色 - 有很多迹象表明他们甚至比不上老旧的俄罗斯航电 - 这可能在未来五年左右改变 - 但目前航电相当黯淡。
发动机:歼-20使用源自老式米格-29的发动机。它们非常"不隐身",冒烟且效率不高。中国似乎还远不能自产高性能尖端发动机 - 因此顶尖性能也属于美国战机,它们的发动机是同类最优。
总体而言,F-35和F-22能在歼-20只看到蓝天时就发现它,美制战机可以追踪并击落歼-20,而歼-20甚至意识不到存在真正威胁(想象一下:晴天霹雳或被猛禽袭击...)。


Abhishek
As far as I know you cant compare these aircrafts. But we rarely know much for sure besides predictions on basis of some random videos and recent flights at air show in china by 2 j20s. But it was for a meagre time period. About f22 and f35 both are one the most superior fighter jets available in present day scenario. But the production of F22 is already stopped. F35 despite being promising and best in league has turned out to be too costly. It has also been marred by design flaws which changed quite a times. Despite all this , it is best or one the best inits category.
One more reason we cannot logically compare is there has been no realtime combat between these aircrafts . so no data to backup
But if we go by theory , despite j20s exponential growth in technology it would not be good to say its better than f35.
据我所知,你们无法比较这些战机。但我们除了根据一些随机视频和最近中国航展上两架歼20的短暂飞行表演进行预测外,几乎无法确定什么。关于f22和f35,它们都是当今最优秀的战斗机之一。但F22的生产已经停止。F35尽管前景看好且是同级别最佳,但结果证明成本太高。它还受到多次变更的设计缺陷影响。尽管如此,它仍是同类最佳或最佳之一。
另一个无法逻辑比较的原因是没有这些战机之间的实时战斗。所以没有数据支持
但如果从理论上讲,尽管歼20技术呈指数级增长,但说它比f35更好并不妥当。