CK3新DLC给中国赋予了一个全新概念和游戏中唯一一个的头衔：霸权。各地网友对于还有哪些地方可以成为霸权展开讨论

# What's a Hegemony?
To be very fair, the developers are most likely gonna explain their definition of a Hegemony next Tuesday, but I'm still gonna explain what I consider as a Hegemony, so that you understand my train of thoughts for the rest of the post.
The way I see it, a Hegemony is not "just" a huge Empire nor even an Empire that combines several de-jure empires. To me, a hegemony is an "entity" whose concept is so central to the region it belongs to that its very existence shapes the society and the geopolitics of this region and the neighboring areas.
It is so intimately lixed to this region that even when no one formally holds the title, everyone feels the idea of belonging to this entity. And all independent entities that exists within this region feel not just the desire, but the "duty" to bring back this entity to life.
It is so influential that the geopolitics and history of entities neighboring this hegemonic entity are defined in relation to it.
It is so prestigious that any foreign group who comes to take control of this entity will adopt its uses and traditions.
Thus, an Hegemony needs to be an entity with a clear geographical definition that's understood by anyone living in it, and it needs to have a history of having existed in the past and having been the power heart of all regions surrounding it.
 
# 什么是霸权？
平心而论，开发人员很可能会在下周二解释他们对“霸权”的定义，但我还是想先阐述一下我所理解的霸权，这样你们才能明白我接下来帖子的思路。
在我看来，霸权并不仅仅是一个庞大的帝国，甚至也不是一个整合了多个法理帝国的帝国。对我而言，霸权是一个“实体”，其概念在其所属地区居于核心地位，以至于它的存在本身就塑造了该地区及周边区域的社会和地缘政治格局。
它与这片区域的联系是如此紧密，以至于即便在无人正式拥有这一头衔时，每个人都油然而生一种归属于这个实体的感觉。而该区域内所有独立的政体，不仅怀有渴望，更感到有“责任”让这一实体重现辉煌。
它的影响力是如此之大，以至于周边政体的地缘政治和历史都是围绕着它来定义的。
它的声望是如此之高，以至于任何外来群体在控制了这一实体后，都会采纳其风俗与传统。
因此，一个霸权需要具备一个生活在其中的任何人都能理解的、明确的地理定义；它还需要有曾经存在过的历史，并曾是其周边所有地区的权力中心。
 
# Rome
There's little suspens when it comes to Rome, as it's been pretty much confirmed by the devs, and it's the only one besides China that makes sense without having to stretch anything.
During its golden age, the Roman Empire was that defined life and society all around the Mediterranea and for atleast a good half of Europe. And even after the western half collapsed and the eastern half was greatly reduced in power, the legacy of the Roman empire remained huge. Europe is not the only region that was influenced by the roman legacy, but it's unique in that it's whole history was pretty much defined by an obsession for claiming the legacy of the Roman Empire, in all sorts of shapes.
By the time of CK3, the idea of the Roman empire has become not only one of geographical nature but also one of spiritual nature (Rome and christianity gradually became one and the same thing in the minds of those of the time). However, its legacy is divided.
In the east, the Roman Empire is still alive, however it has lost all legitimacy over western Europe, and its spiritual and temporal nature are incarnated in the same person, as the Emperor of the Romans.
In the west, the legacy of the Roman Empire is divided. Its temporal nature is incarnated by the Holy Roman Empire, claiming to be continuation of the Roman Empire in the west. And its spiritual nature is incarnated by the pope, as the Catholic Church has become the only entity truly still uniting the successor realms of the Roman Empire.
**Formation**: In order for the Roman Hegemony to be restored, it must be reunited geographically and spiritually. This means that the Emperor of the Romans must have destroyed the Holy Roman Emperor, or vice-versa, the schism must have been mended, the core lands of the west and east roman empire must be controlled. And if formed by the HRE, the pope must be subjugated.
From this point, a hegemony is formed covering all historical roman land + the HRE lands.
 
# 罗马
说到罗马，基本没什么悬念，因为开发者们几乎已经确认了这一点，而且除了中华霸权外，它是唯一一个无需任何牵强附会的解释就能成立的。
在其黄金时代，罗马帝国定义了地中海沿岸乃至大半个欧洲的生活与社会。即使在西罗马覆灭、东罗马实力大减之后，罗马帝国的遗产依然无比巨大。欧洲并非唯一受罗马遗产影响的地区，但其独特之处在于，它的整个历史几乎就是由一种对以各种形式宣称罗马帝国继承权的狂热所定义的。
到了CK3的时代，罗马帝国的概念不仅具有地理性质，还具有了精神性质（在当时人们的观念中，罗马与基督教逐渐合二为一）。然而，其遗产是分裂的。
在东方，罗马帝国依然存在，但它已经完全丧失了对西欧的合法性，其精神与世俗的属性都体现在同一个人身上——罗马人的皇帝。
 
在西方，罗马帝国的遗产是分裂的。其世俗属性由神圣罗马帝国体现，该国声称是罗马帝国在西方的延续。其精神属性则由教宗体现，因为天主教会已成为唯一一个仍在团结罗马帝国继承者国度的实体。
**形成条件**：要重建罗马霸权，就必须在地理和精神上实现统一。这意味着罗马皇帝必须摧毁神圣罗马帝国皇帝，反之亦然；东西教会大分裂必须被弥合；东西罗马帝国的核心领土必须被控制。如果是由神圣罗马帝国建立，则必须降服教宗。
从此刻起，一个覆盖所有罗马历史领土外加神圣罗马帝国领土的霸权便形成了。
 
# The Caliphate
The Caliphate is a tricky case. It originally was a title representing both the ruling over all the believers and the ruling over all the land of the Dar-Al-Islam (land of Islam), since those two were one and the same initially. However, following the fall of the Umayyads, the land of islam got divided and was never reunited ever again. Furthermore, after the end of the Abbasid golden age, the prestige and power of the Caliph got reduced again and again, until it became no much more than a symbolic symbol.
As a result, while the symbolism of the Caliphate as the ruler of all the believers of Islam remained, the might associated with it disappeared, and the very concept of a Caliphate as geographical entity disappeared. Thus, historically, the Caliphate never became a hegemony in the same sense as China or Rome. It didn't last long enough like Rome, and didn't get reunified like China.
But by the 867 start date, the memory of the unified Dar-Al-Islam is still not that far, the Caliph is still powerful, the Abbasids just came out of their golden age and haven't yet been humiliated and the Shia caliphate hasn't been formed yet. The concept of reuniting the Dar-Al-Islam is still present. And achieving it less than 2 centuries after its division would consolidate its idea as not only a spiritual but also a geographical entity.
**Formation**: Only available starting from the 867 date, to either the Abbasid or the Umayyad caliphs. In the case of the Abbasid, the iranian intermezzo must end with an abbasid victory. And then, in both case, the lands of Iran, Arabia, Maghreb and Iberia must be all brought under an unified caliphate rule, and the pretender caliphate must be destroyed.
From this point, a hegemony is formed covering all these lands.
 
# 哈里发国
哈里发国的情况比较棘手。它最初是一个头衔，既代表对所有信徒的统治，也代表对“伊斯兰之家”所有土地的统治，因为这两者最初是合一的。然而，随着伍麦叶王朝的覆灭，伊斯兰世界分崩离析，再也未能统一。此外，在阿拔斯王朝黄金时代结束后，哈里发的威望和权力一再削弱，最终沦为一个几乎纯粹的象征。
结果就是，虽然哈里发作为所有穆斯林信徒统治者的象征意义依然存在，但与之相关的实际权力却已烟消云散，哈里发国作为一个地理实体的概念也随之消失。因此，从历史上看，哈里发国从未成为像中华或罗马那样意义上的霸权。它不像罗马那样持久，也不像中国那样能够重归统一。
 
但到了867年的开局日期，统一的“伊斯兰之家”的记忆尚不遥远，哈里发依然强大，阿拔斯王朝刚走出黄金时代，还未遭受羞辱，什叶派哈里发国也尚未建立。统一“伊斯兰之家”的理念依然存在。在其分裂后不到两个世纪内实现统一，将巩固其不仅作为精神实体，也作为地理实体的概念。
**形成条件**：仅在867年剧本中，对阿拔斯或伍麦叶哈里发开放。对于阿拔斯王朝，“伊朗间奏曲”必须以其胜利告终。然后，无论哪种情况，伊朗、阿拉伯、马格里布和伊比利亚的土地都必须被置于一个统一的哈里发统治之下，并且伪哈里发国必须被摧毁。
从此刻起，一个覆盖所有这些土地的霸权便形成了。
 
# Iran
Iran sounds less impressive because it covers much less de-jure land than Rome or the Caliphate on the map, so it doesn't look as impressive for a hegemony. However, it has a bigger historical precedence, compared to the Caliphate.
Historically, Iran was not just some alternative name for Persia, it was the name of the lands ruled by the Shahs of Shahs. And while the actual geographical area directly ruled varied over time, its influence (not always necessarily direct) extended to a vast area going all the way from Anatolia and Egypt to the Indus mountains, from Arabia to Central Asia.
The concept of Iran lasted several dynasties, who all claimed its continuity (Achaemenids, Seleucids, Parthians and Sassanids), for roughly a thousand years . During all this time, Iran was truly the cultural and political center of all the middle east, its influence reaching all around, with later the Romans contesting its influence over its western borders. But even when the dominance of Iran was destroyed by the Arabs, the idea of "Iran" remained. So that all people living in this area, not just Persians, considered themselves part of Iran, and later dynasties who controlled the region seeked to legitimize themselves using the memory of the Shahs of Shahs of old.
Unlike Rome and the Caliphate, Iran is a purely geographical entity, like China.
By 867 however, it's been more than 2 centuries since the fall of the last Iranian hegemonic dynasty. The dominating figure who brings legitimacy has gradually shifted to be the one of the Caliph. However, if we stretch the believability a little bit, the idea of a powerful iranian dynasty reuniting Iran and re-imposing it as the hegemony of the region is not COMPLETELY crazy. It would have to be no later than the 867 start though. And for the hegemony of Iran to truly be uncontested again, its historical ennemies (Rome and the Caliphate) must be crushed.
**Formation**: Only available starting from the 867 date. The iranian intermezzo must end with an iranian resurgence outcome. Character must hold the persian empire title, the Roman (byzantine) Empire & the Caliphate must have been destroyed, and the land of the Caucasus, Egypt, Anatolia and Eastern Arabia must be controlled.
From then on, a hegemony covering the Persian empire, the Caucasus, Anatolia, the Arabian empire and a part of Central Asia will be formed.
Note that for logical reasons, the Iran hegemon cannot be established if the Caliphate hegemon was established already, and vice versa. They are inherently incompatible with each other.
 
# 伊朗
伊朗听起来可能没那么震撼，因为它在地图上覆盖的法理领土比罗马或哈里发国少得多，所以作为霸权看起来不那么壮观。然而，与哈里发国相比，它拥有更深厚的历史先例。
历史上，伊朗不仅仅是波斯的别称，它是由“万王之王”所统治的土地的名称。虽然直接统治的地理范围随时间变化，但其影响力（不一定总是直接的）曾延伸至一片广阔的区域，从安纳托利亚和埃及直到印度河山脉，从阿拉伯半岛到中亚。
伊朗的概念延续了数个王朝（阿契美尼德、塞琉古、帕提亚和萨珊），历时约一千年，这些王朝都宣称其延续性。在此期间，伊朗是整个中东地区名副其实的文化和政治中心，其影响力辐射四周，后来罗马人开始在其西部边境挑战其影响力。但即使在伊朗的主导地位被阿拉伯人摧毁后，“伊朗”这一概念依然存续。因此，所有生活在该地区的人，不仅仅是波斯人，都认为自己是伊朗的一部分，后来控制该地区的王朝也试图利用对古代万王之王的记忆来使自己合法化。
 
与罗马和哈里发国不同，伊朗和中国一样，是一个纯粹的地理实体。
然而，到了867年，距离最后一个伊朗霸权王朝的覆灭已过去两个多世纪。赋予正统性的主导形象已逐渐转变为哈里发。不过，如果我们稍微放宽一下霸权的标准，一个强大的伊朗王朝统一伊朗并重新确立其地区霸主地位的想法，并非完全是天方夜谭。但这最晚也得从867年剧本开始。而且，要让伊朗的霸权真正再次无可匹敌，其历史上的敌人（罗马和哈里发国）必须被粉碎。
**形成条件**：仅在867年剧本中开放。“伊朗间奏曲”必须以伊朗复兴的结局告终。角色必须持有波斯帝国头衔，罗马（拜占庭）帝国和哈里发国必须已被摧毁，高加索、埃及、安纳托利亚和东阿拉伯的土地必须被控制。
此后，一个覆盖波斯帝国、高加索、安纳托利亚、阿拉伯帝国和部分中亚的霸权将形成。
注意，出于逻辑原因，如果哈里发霸权已经建立，伊朗霸权就无法建立，反之亦然。它们本质上是互不相容的。
 
# India and all others
As much as I understand the need for the unification of India to be somewhat rewarding, from my view of what a hegemon is, India as a hegemon doesn't make sense. It was never fully unified, and only came close to once, under the Maurya (by the time of CK3). And even then, it only lasted 150 years, and has been gone for almost 1000 years. The concept of India as an unified entity is very modern. And thus, I don't think it would make sense to have an India hegemon, when the concept itself didn't even exist.
The same goes for all proposed hegemons I've seen, like Slavia or Africa. Sure, these decisions feel very underwhelming at the moment, but there's no concept of Slavia or Africa as unified entities that exist. It's just not at all like China or Rome, it doesn't work.
In the case of India, there's atleast some sort of cultural, religious and societal similarities tying the whole thing together, so I'd say it's the least unrealistic of those. But the rest should be a big no to me, and the reward to these decisions should be represented in another way.
The Mongols are a weird case however. Historically, they became a hegemonic power, whose legacy influenced Asia and Eastern Europe for centuries, and many later rulers claimed their legitimacy by attaching themselves to the legacy of the Borjigins. But on the same time, the concept of an unified mongol realm never really entrenched itself, and when it collapsed as an unified entity 2 generations after the Genghis Khan, it was never anything close to reunited, nor was there ever any real push to reunify it. On the contrary, the Yuans assimilated themselves into the Chinese power legitimacy, and the Ilkhans assimilated themselves into the Iranian power legitimacy.
The way I see it, the mongols are more of a dynasty thing. It's not really about the geographical area. It's more about the lineage of the Genghis Khan having an almost divine legitimacy in certain regions. So I think it should be more of a special lineage modifier, and not a hegemony.
Here it is! That was my (unecessarily long) two cents about my take on possible hegemons in CK3. Sorry for wasting so much of your time! Although I'd love to hear your thoughts :)
 
# 印度及其他
尽管我理解统一印度需要得到一些奖励，但从我对霸权的看法来看，印度作为霸权并不合理。它从未被完全统一过，在CK3的时代之前，仅在孔雀王朝时期接近过一次。即便如此，那也只持续了150年，并且已经消失了近1000年。印度作为一个统一实体的概念是非常现代的。因此，当这个概念本身都不存在时，我认为设立印度霸权是不合理的。
我所见过的所有其他提议的霸权，如斯拉夫亚或非洲，也是如此。当然，这些决议目前的奖励确实让人觉得很一般，但斯拉夫或非洲作为统一实体的概念是不存在的。这和中国或罗马完全不同，行不通。
就印度而言，至少有某种文化、宗教和社会的相似性将整个地区联系在一起，所以我会说它是这些提议中最不离谱的一个。但其余的对我来说应该坚决否定，这些决议的奖励应该以其他方式体现。
 
不过，蒙古是个特例。历史上，他们成为了一个霸权力量，其遗产影响了亚洲和东欧数个世纪，许多后来的统治者都通过依附于黄金家族的遗产来宣称其合法性。但与此同时，统一的蒙古领域的概念从未真正深入人心，当它在成吉思汗之后两代人作为一个统一实体崩溃时，它从未接近过统一，也从未有过任何真正统一它的努力。相反，元朝融入了中华的权力正统，而伊儿汗国则融入了伊朗的权力正统。
在我看来，蒙古更多的是一个关乎王朝的事情。它与地理区域关系不大，更多的是成吉思汗的血脉在某些地区拥有近乎神圣的合法性。所以我认为这应该是一个特殊的家族血脉修正，而非一个霸权。
就是这些！以上就是我（不必要的长篇）关于CK3中可能存在的霸权的一点浅见。抱歉浪费了大家这么多时间！不过我很想听听你们的想法 :)
 
bmerino120
Likes: 55
My take is that an Hegemony represents an empire that downright claims being the sole ruler of the world and has enough land to back that claim as in the concept of universal monarchy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_monarchy, China, Rome, the Caliphate, an united India and Persia all fit and I can argue that the HRE could as well be one if it vassalizes all other catholic kingdoms as it's claim was that it was a universal christian empire
 
我的看法是，霸权代表一个公然宣称自己是世界唯一统治者，并有足够土地来支撑这一宣称的帝国，就像“普世君主制”的概念一样。中国、罗马、哈里发国、统一的印度和波斯都符合，而且我认为，如果神圣罗马帝国能附庸所有其他天主教王国，它也能成为一个霸权，因为它本就声称自己是一个普世的基督教帝国。
 
RedMedal001
Likes: 9
China, India, United Rome and United Africa absolutely should be hegemons.
HRE doesn't make sense, while it was indeed very powerful, there were other countries that not only did not recognize them as hegemons, but were capable of standing their ground against it. Such as France and the ERE.
Persia would need to be heavily modified to work as a hegemon.
The Caliphate could work, but it needs to be a different title to e_arabia and d_sunni caliphate.
 
中华、印度、统一罗马和统一非洲绝对应该是霸权。
神圣罗马帝国则不合理，虽然它确实非常强大，但当时还有其他国家不仅不承认其霸主地位，而且有能力与之抗衡，比如法兰西和东罗马帝国。
波斯需要经过大量修改才能成为霸权。
哈里发国可以，但它需要一个不同于“阿拉伯帝国”和“逊尼派哈里发”的新头衔。
 
bmerino120
Likes: 2
Yes that's why I say the HRE could become an hegemon if it integrated any other christian (or at least catholic) kingdom rather than just pretending it already is that way
 
是的，所以我才说神圣罗马帝国如果能整合任何其他基督教（至少是天主教）王国，而不是仅仅假装自己是霸主，它就能成为一个霸权。
 
sieben-acht
Likes: 2
HRE stands for Holy Roman Empire, because the germanics were firmly within the cultural sphere of the Roman Empire, as such I don't think it makes sense to give them a separate hegemony. As per your own idea, a hegemony represents a "universal empire", and as such I don't think cultures that already have an established one should get a different one. I think germanics should just also form rome, a bigger one that includes germany.
 
HRE代表神圣罗马帝国，因为日耳曼人本就牢牢地处在罗马帝国的文化圈内，因此我认为给他们一个独立的霸权是不合理的。根据你自己的想法，霸权代表一个“普世帝国”，所以我不认为那些已经有了一个既定霸权归属的文化，还应该再得到一个不同的霸权。我认为日耳曼人也应该去成立罗马，一个包括了德意志地区的、更大的罗马。
 
Nerevarine91
Likes: 1
That latter HRE one might be interesting if it sort of represented the concept of “Christendom,” or perhaps just the western portion (Roman Empire + Scandinavia, Ireland, Scotland, and Poland and - Byzantines)
 
后面那个关于神圣罗马帝国的想法可能会很有趣，如果它能代表“基督教世界”的概念，或者至少是其西部部分（罗马帝国 + 斯堪的纳维亚、爱尔兰、苏格兰、波兰，但不包括拜占庭）。
 
severance_fan990
Likes: 16
That being said, you know that some people are gonna twek the rules and create a ehegomony that consists of Ireland, parts of Norway, half of Spain, and a patchwork of territories across Europe, with a scandinavian-berber culture, with Tengri religion.
CK3 cursed results never cease to amaze me.
 
话虽如此，但你也知道，总会有人去修改规则，然后建立一个由爱尔兰、挪威部分地区、半个西班牙以及欧洲各地零散领土组成的霸权，还带着斯堪的纳维亚-柏柏尔文化，信奉腾格里教。
CK3那些离谱的魔改结果总是让我惊叹不已。
 
Evil_Old_Guy
Likes: 22
Although it still won't make that much sense, but I think ones like India, Slavia and similar to it could be allowed to become a hegemony, but probably with Hegemonic power projection(similar requirements to current imperial power projection but harder) and the requirement to have existed for quite a long time(could be up to 500, but then it'd only be possible from 867 if you play with the game end in 1453) as an empire, continously controlling the required lands, not only those of the current empire, but also from neighbors(for example to create the Indian hegemony you'll need to control parts of Tibet, the western half of SEA and the nearest parts of Iran). That's just for those who *really* want these empires to become hegemony.
 
虽然这样做意义不大，但我认为像印度、斯拉维亚以及类似体量的国家应该被允许成为霸权，但可能需要满足“霸权力量投射”（要求类似但比现在的“帝国力量投射”更难）的条件，并且作为一个帝国，需要持续存在很长时间（可能长达500年，但如果你玩到1453年游戏结束，那就只有从867年开局才有可能），持续控制必要的土地，不仅包括当前帝国的领土，还要包括邻国的领土（例如，要创建印度霸权，你需要控制西藏部分地区、东南亚西部以及伊朗最近的地区）。这只是为了那些*真的*想让这些帝国成为霸权的人准备的。
 
Attlai
Likes: 14
For me, the main obstacle to the Caliphate being a hegemony is the fact that it only lasted as an unified geographical entity for one century, and was never reunited ever again. So the concept of the Caliphate as an unified realm is not that entrenched actually.
By 867, the Abbassids are on their way down, and from then on the Caliphate progressively becomes a mostly spiritual power.
And so, as I explained, I do think the Caliphate can become a hegemon, but one has to move fast, before the Caliph title loses its power, and before the memory of an unified Dar-al-Islam disappears completely.
I do think however that it can't be a hegemon by default in any start date. In 1066 and 1178, the Caliph has completely lost its power, and the idea of an unified Caliphate as hegemon is long dead and buried.
And in 867, there is already another Caliph contesting the legitimacy of the Abbasids, and the land of Islam have been divided for longer than they've been united. It's the only start date from which I consider believable to form a Caliphate hegemon, but I also don't think it fits as being one by default.
 
对我来说，哈里发国成为霸权的主要障碍在于，它作为一个统一的地理实体只存在了一个世纪，并且再也未能重归统一。因此，哈里发国作为一个统一领域的概念实际上并不那么根深蒂固。
到了867年，阿拔斯王朝正走向衰落，从那时起，哈里发国逐渐变成了一个主要依靠精神力量的政权。
所以，正如我所解释的，我确实认为哈里发国可以成为霸权，但必须行动迅速，赶在哈里发头衔失去权力之前，赶在统一的“伊斯兰之家”的记忆完全消失之前。
然而，我认为在任何剧本开局时，它都不应该默认就是霸权。在1066年和1178年，哈里发已经完全失去了权力，一个统一的哈里发霸权的想法早已消亡。
而在867年，已经有另一个哈里发在挑战阿拔斯王朝的合法性，伊斯兰世界的土地分裂的时间已经比它们统一的时间更长了。这是我唯一认为有可能形成哈里发霸权的剧本，但我也认为它不适合作为默认的霸权。
 
MCMXCVIII_MCDxiX
Likes: 4
>For me, the main obstacle to the Caliphate being a hegemony is the fact that it only lasted as an unified geographical entity for one century
I disagree. Even as late as the 867 start date in ck, the Abbasids still control a massive amount of the arabian peninsula, the levant, all of iraq, with the tulunids governor being a semi autonomous governer. It lasted for at least 200+ years easily.
>In 1066 and 1178, the Caliph has completely lost its power, and the idea of an unified Caliphate as hegemon is long dead and buried.
I completely disagree again. For the majority of Muslims worldwide, there is always hope for a reuniting of all the muslim lands under one qurayshi calilph. The idea is arguably still alive today, let alone the 11th century, when Muslims were much stronger than they are now. It wasn't even close to being a dead idea.
 
>对我来说，哈里发成为霸权的主要障碍是，它作为一个统一的地理实体只存在了一个世纪。
我不同意。即使在CK3的867年剧本，阿拔斯王朝仍然控制着阿拉伯半岛、黎凡特的大片土地以及整个伊拉克，图伦王朝的总督也只是一个半自治的管理者。它轻松地持续了至少200多年。
>在1066年和1178年，哈里发完全失去了权力，统一哈里发作为霸主的想法早已泯灭。
我再次完全不同意。对于全世界大多数穆斯林来说，将所有穆斯林土地统一在一个古莱氏哈里发统治下的希望始终存在。这个想法可以说在今天依然存在，更不用说11世纪了，当时的穆斯林比现在强大得多。这个想法远未消亡。
 
Attlai
Likes: 6
>Even as late as the 867 start date in ck, the Abbasids still control a massive amount of the arabian peninsula, the levant, all of iraq, with the tulunids governor being a semi autonomous governer. It lasted for at least 200+ years easily.
They do, but they're losing control, and more importantly: the land of islam are not united, and there's another ruler claiming the title of caliph. The Caliphate can only be considered a Hegemon if all of islam is truly united and no one else is contesting this title, just like how Rome can only be restored as a hegemon if the other Roman empire is gone and the christian schism is mended.
If no one manages to reunite the land of Islam before the title of Caliph loses its prestige, then the idea of an unified Islam will never entrench itself like how the idea of unified China did.
>For the majority of Muslims worldwide, there is always hope for a reuniting of all the muslim lands under one qurayshi calilph. The idea is arguably still alive today, let alone the 11th century, when Muslims were much stronger than they are now. It wasn't even close to being a dead idea.
Just like you say, it's a hope, but not a reality. China is a hegemon, because any time it broke down, it was reunited, and the goal of reuniting it was not just a hope but a duty. Rome lost its status as a hegemon because it failed at being reunited. And the Caliphate hasn't obtained its status as a hegemon yet, because it hasn't been reunited, and has spent more time divided than united.
To reunite the land of Islam under one caliph and entrench it as a hegemon should be something that an Abbasid or Umayyad caliph should strive toward. But it's not a reality in any of the start dates.
 
>即使到了CK3的867年，阿拔斯王朝仍然控制着大量的阿拉伯半岛、黎凡特、伊拉克全境，图伦王朝的总督是一个半自治的总督。它至少轻松地延续了200多年。
他们确实控制着，但他们正在失去控制，更重要的是：伊斯兰世界并未统一，并且有另一个统治者在宣称哈里发的头衔。只有当整个伊斯兰世界真正统一，且无人再争夺此头衔时，哈里发国才能被视为霸权，就像只有当另一个罗马帝国消失、基督教大分裂被弥合时，罗马才能重建霸权一样。
如果在哈里发头衔失去威望之前，没人能成功统一伊斯兰世界，那么统一伊斯兰的理念就永远无法像统一中国的理念那样深入人心。
 
>对于全世界大多数穆斯林来说，将所有穆斯林土地统一在一个古莱氏哈里发名下的希望始终存在。这种想法可以说在今天依然存在，更不用说在穆斯林比现在强大得多的11世纪了。这个想法甚至还没有消亡。
就像你说的，这是一种希望，而非现实。中国是霸权，因为每当它分裂时，总能重归统一，而统一它的目标不仅是希望，更是一种责任。罗马失去了霸权地位，因为它未能重归统一。而哈里发国尚未获得霸权地位，因为它还未被统一，并且分裂的时间比统一的时间更长。
在一个哈里发的领导下统一伊斯兰世界，并巩固其霸权地位，这应该是阿拔斯或伍麦叶哈里发应该努力实现的目标。但这在任何一个剧本开局时都不是现实。
 
Someone-Somewhere-01
Likes: 2
About the Caliphate never been reunited again, I would actually add that the Ottoman Empire was actually deemed the legitimate successor Caliphate by most Islamic states of their time, ruling over most of the old Caliphate core. States as far as Aceh and Moroccos and Adal recognized hegemony of the Muslim world, which was a prestige they kept up to the disintegration of the Caliphate in the 20th century. While I know that this was concluded a century after the end date, there is a historical precedent for a post-Abassid power that took control of the old Muslim core in the ME and became recognized as the “hegemony” of the Muslim world
 
关于哈里发国再也未能统一，我其实想补充一点，奥斯曼帝国实际上被当时大多数伊斯兰国家视为合法的哈里发继承者，统治着旧哈里发国的大部分核心地区。远至亚齐、摩洛哥和阿达尔的国家都承认其在穆斯林世界的霸权，这一声望一直维持到20世纪哈里发制度解体。虽然我知道这发生在游戏结束日期的一个世纪后，但确实存在一个历史先例：一个后阿拔斯时代的强权，控制了中东的旧穆斯林核心区，并被公认为穆斯林世界的“霸权”。
 
bloynd_x
Likes: 3
I think it feels wierd that other Hegemonies like China would consist of 5 whole empires but then the caliphate is just the arabian empire+iraq
 
我觉得，像中华霸权这样的可能由整整5个帝国组成，而哈里发霸权却只是阿拉伯帝国+伊拉克，这感觉有点奇怪。
 
MCMXCVIII_MCDxiX
Likes: 1
You do realize that the 'arabian empire' is ginormous right? You could fit like 7 'empire of italias' inside in... Historically Egypt alone was an empire.
 
你没意识到“阿拉伯帝国”本身就巨大无比吗？里面能装下大概7个“意大利帝国”……历史上，光一个埃及就是一个帝国。
 
ZealousidealDance990
Likes: 8
But it seems that much of it consists of deserts and barren land. I'm not entirely sure, but the population of the entire Arab Empire doesn't appear to have been that large.
Especially before the industrial era, the quality of land and the population relative to area seemed to matter much more.
 
但它似乎大部分由沙漠和贫瘠土地组成。我不太确定，但整个阿拉伯帝国的人口似乎并没有那么多。
特别是在工业时代之前，土地的质量和单位面积的人口数量似乎更为重要。
 
MCMXCVIII_MCDxiX
Likes: 0
It also contains some of the most prestigious and awe inspiring cities and landmarks of its time, including Makkah, medina, baghdad, bayt al hikma, damascus, fustat, alexandria, the kaaba, the pyramids of giza, antioch, jerusalem, the dome of the rock, ctesiphon. Cmon man, be intellectually honest.
 
它也包含了当时一些最负盛名、最令人敬畏的城市和地标，包括麦加、麦地那、巴格达、智慧宫、大马士革、福斯塔特、亚历山大、克尔白、吉萨金字塔、安条克、耶路撒冷、圆顶清真寺、泰西封。拜托，请在认知上诚实一点。
 
ZealousidealDance990
Likes: 3
I do not deny that it had a brilliant civilization. I just want to say that focusing only on territory is one-sided. Considering that the Roman Empire, India, and the Tang Dynasty each had populations of over 50 million, I think that only a caliphate stretching from North Africa to Iran would be comparable to them.
 
我并不否认它曾有过辉煌的文明。我只是想说，只关注领土面积是片面的。考虑到罗马帝国、印度和唐朝的人口都曾超过5000万，我认为只有一个从北非延伸到伊朗的哈里发国才能与它们相提并论。
 
bloynd_x
Likes: 2
I never said the arabian empire is small , I just it just feels weird that the caliphate would consist of only one empire and part another empire bec you know how the game works? Hegemonies consist of multiple empires , empires consist of multiple kingdoms , kingdoms consist of multiple duchies ect..
also no the arabian empire doesn't fit 7 empires , egypt is literally half the empire and then then with other half of the empire we only have 2 empires not 7
 
我从没说阿拉伯帝国小，我只是觉得哈里发霸权只由一个帝国外加另一个帝国的一部分组成很奇怪，因为你知道游戏是怎么运作的吗？霸权由多个帝国组成，帝国由多个王国组成，王国由多个公国组成等等……
另外，阿拉伯帝国也装不下7个帝国，埃及差不多就占了帝国的一半，剩下的一半最多也就凑出2个帝国，而不是7个。
 
MCMXCVIII_MCDxiX
Likes: -2
Then it's just semantics. This 1 empire is significantly more massive than these 5 empires combined, but because it was only designated as one empire by paradox, the holder of said massive empire is unable to access hegemonies...
 
那这纯粹是文字游戏了。这1个帝国比那5个帝国加起来还要大得多，但就因为P社把它划定为1个帝国，这个庞大帝国的持有者就无法建立霸权……
 
bloynd_x
Likes: 5
but the arabian empire isn't as rich as these 5 empires combined , it's not about the land area it's about how rich the actual empire is
as I said in my comment the arabian empire doesn't fit 7 empires as you said , egypt is literally half the empire and then then with other half of the empire we only have 2 empires not 7
 
但阿拉伯帝国并没有那5个帝国加起来富裕，关键不在于土地面积，而在于帝国本身有多富庶。
就像我在评论里说的，阿拉伯帝国不像你说的那样能装下7个帝国，埃及就占了帝国的一半，剩下的一半最多凑出2个帝国，不是7个。
 
MCMXCVIII_MCDxiX
Likes: -4
Dude... It also contains some of the most prestigious and awe inspiring cities and landmarks of its time, including Makkah, medina, baghdad, bayt al hikma, damascus, fustat, alexandria, the kaaba, the pyramids of giza, antioch, jerusalem, the dome of the rock, ctesiphon. Cmon man, be intellectually honest.
 
老兄……它也包含了当时一些最负盛名、最令人敬畏的城市和地标，包括麦加、麦地那、巴格达、智慧宫、大马士革、福斯塔特、亚历山大、克尔白、吉萨金字塔、安条克、耶路撒冷、圆顶清真寺、泰西封。拜托，请在认知上诚实一点。
 
bloynd_x
Likes: 5
I know it had a lot of great cites and land marks and was a great civilization (I am literally from egypt) but that's not how measure how powerful they are , it's still no where near the the power of all China or the roman empire ,
 
我知道它有很多伟大的城市和地标，也是一个伟大的文明（我本人就是埃及人），但那不是衡量它们有多强大的标准，它的实力仍然远不及整个中华或罗马帝国。
 
Fantastic-Shirt6037
Likes: 9
Tbh I think the idea of hegemonies needs some work. Partly the reason why it’s so contested is because it seems a bit ambiguous and abstract.
 
老实说，我认为“霸权”这个概念还需要完善。它之所以备受争议，部分原因在于它看起来有些模糊和抽象。
 
Attlai
Likes: 16
To be fair, the devs haven't yet explained what they consider a hegemon and how it works, and they'll most likely do next Tuesday. We're all just speculating at this point, cuz that's what we CK3 fans love to do.
 
公平地说，开发者还没解释他们眼中的霸权是什么以及其运作机制，他们很可能会在下周二说明。我们现在都只是在推测，因为这正是我们CK3粉丝爱干的事。
 
Fantastic-Shirt6037
Likes: 1
Fair point
 
有道理。
 
LastEsotericist
Likes: 1
It’s pretty much just a China unique feature. Rome is practically an Easter egg.
 
这基本上就是个中国特色功能。罗马那个几乎算是个彩蛋。
 
zz0902
Likes: 3
I really wish they just add a fantasy toggle in game rule setting to allow wild hegemons. Like Europa, unified India or even three mountains(Ryukyu+Japan+SEA)
 
我真希望他们能在游戏规则设置里加一个幻想模式开关，允许出现一些狂野的霸权。比如欧罗巴霸权、统一印度霸权，甚至是三山霸权（琉球+日本+东南亚）。
 
habit00
Likes: 8
Totally agree with you! The only ones that make sense to be hegemons are Rome, the Caliphate and Iran.
India may not have the historical precedent but i believe its a somewhat pausible entity that could have formed, Slavia and Africa? Not so much...
 
完全同意你的看法！唯一有道理成为霸主的只有罗马、哈里发国和伊朗。
印度可能没有历史先例，但我相信它是一个有一定可能形成的实体。至于斯拉夫和非洲？那就可能性不大了……
 
Zarafey
Likes: 6
100% agree, the concept of Chakravarti already existed in many of the religions in the time period so it makes sense someone rising and cementing that would deffo be a hegemony
 
100%同意，转轮王的概念在那个时期的许多宗教中已经存在，所以如果有人崛起并巩固了这一概念，那绝对会成为一个霸权。
 
AceOfDiamonds373
Likes: 2
I disagree with your take that india, slavia or africa can't be hegemonies simply because they weren't united historically.
The game actively encourages you to pursue alternative historical narratives. People take Jarl Haestinn to the steppe and become the greatest of Khans, it was never supposed to be historically accurate.
If the decision to form India, Slavia or Africa is in the game (which it is) then they should reward the achievement by allowing you to create a hegemony, and you can cultivate the alternate history built around it.
In a parallel universe the Roman Empire never existed and you'd be saying how unrealistic it is that the whole of the Med can become one united hegemony.
 
我不同意你因为印度、斯拉维亚或非洲在历史上没有统一过，就认为它们不能成为霸权的看法。
这个游戏本就积极鼓励你去追求架空的历史叙事。玩家们把哈斯泰因酋长带到大草原，成为最伟大的可汗，这本来就不是为了追求历史准确性。
如果游戏中存在成立印度、斯拉维亚或非洲的决议（确实存在），那么就应该通过允许你创建霸权来奖励这一成就，然后你就可以围绕它构建自己的架空历史。
在一个罗马帝国从未存在过的平行宇宙里，你可能也会说，整个地中海成为一个统一的霸权是多么不切实际。
 
Attlai
Likes: 5
It's not really about it not being historical. It's about the concept of it not existing and not being entrenched in people's mind.
China is not just a big empire. To the people living in the region, the very idea of China not existing is absurd, even when the empire is not unified. And when China is united, all the geopolitics of east Asia are in relation to China. Same goes for Rome when it was unified.
 
这其实和是否符合历史无关，关键在于这个概念本身存不存在，或者是否在人们心中根深蒂固。
中国不仅仅是一个大帝国。对于生活在该地区的人们来说，即便帝国没有统一，“中国”不存在这个想法本身就是荒谬的。而当中国统一时，整个东亚的地缘政治都会围绕着中国展开。罗马统一时也是如此。
 
AceOfDiamonds373
Likes: 0
Right but by 876 Rome hadn't existed across much of Europe for 400 years. Sure it still had influences but it's not like someone living in Spain would have felt any affinity towards someone in Greece simply because 400 years ago they would have been in the same empire. So in that way, Rome had ceased to exist as a tangible area of Europe. Yet it's still being made a possible hegemony. Meanwhile India had been united before (Mauryan Empire) and yet you don't consider it being a hegemony?
 
是的，但到了867年，罗马在欧洲大部分地区已经消失了400年。当然它仍有影响力，但一个生活在西班牙的人并不会因为400年前他们曾同属一个帝国，就对一个希腊人有任何亲近感。所以从这个角度看，罗马作为一个欧洲实体区域已经不复存在。然而它依然被设定为一个可能的霸权。与此同时，印度以前统一过（孔雀王朝），你却不认为它能成为霸权？
 
I--Pathfinder--I
Likes: 3
perhaps the difference between rome and maurya is 1850 years
 
或许罗马和孔雀王朝的区别在于1850年的时间跨度。
 
Royal_Flamingo7174
Likes: 1
A hegemony should be formable under any faith, any culture, and any political system. So long as they’re not completely pacifist.
The key point about hegemonies is they’re formed around a specific geographical core. For Rome that was the Mediterranean basin and Western Europe, for China it’s the vast arable plain between the Yellow river and the Yangtze.
That has to do with lines of supply and contact in a time before steam trains, automobiles, or even ocean-going caravels.
If you can hold the core, all of it, you should be allowed to form a hegemony.
 
任何信仰、任何文化、任何政治体制下都应该可以形成霸权，只要他们不完全是和平主义者。
关于霸权的关键点是，它们是围绕一个特定的地理核心形成的。对罗马来说，是地中海盆地和西欧；对中国来说，是黄河与长江之间广阔的可耕平原。
这与蒸汽火车、汽车甚至远洋卡拉维尔帆船出现之前的补给线和交通线有关。
如果你能守住核心区域，守住全部，就应该被允许形成霸权。
 
Lucar_Bane
Likes: 1
There could be some meme hegemony that I’m sure would have a lot of tractions. Egyptian or pharaonic, Mongol and Macedonian
 
可以有一些“梗”霸权，我敢肯定会很有吸引力。比如埃及或法老霸权、蒙古霸权和马其顿霸权。
 
Attlai
Likes: 2
Egypt as an unified entity was definitely a hegemon of the bronze age, but it has been gone for way too long by the time of CK3 to make any sense to be brought back as a concept by any ruler.
United macedonia lasted less than 20 years, and Alexander himself had already started embracing the Iranian legitimacy, so it wouldn't make any sense either.
As for the Mongols, I've explained my reason in my post, but it's a tricky case. I think it's more a matter of dynasty than truly geographical entrenched hegemon
 
作为一个统一的实体，埃及无疑是青铜时代的霸主，但到了CK3的时代，它已经消失太久了，任何统治者想把这个概念带回来都没有任何意义。
统一的马其顿持续了不到20年，而且亚历山大本人已经开始接受伊朗的正统性，所以它也没有任何意义。
至于蒙古人，我已经在我的帖子里解释了原因，但这是一个棘手的情况。我认为这更多是关乎王朝，而不是一个真正在地理上根深蒂固的霸权。
 
Haradion_01
Likes: 2
Aren't there Legendary seeds that convert you to Trojan and Ancient Egyptian? Maybe that should be a requirement for the real doozies. Yes, they'd been gone for 1000 years, but that legendary seed is all about reviving a culture that had been dead 1000 years.
 
不是有“传奇种子”能让你转变为特洛伊人和古埃及人吗？也许这应该成为那些真正离谱的霸权的成立条件。是的，他们已经消失了1000年，但那个传奇种子的意义就在于复兴一个已经消亡了1000年的文化。
 
Ok-Goose6242
Likes: 0
I feel if you own 2/3 empires for 200 years, you should be allowed to create a new hegemony.
 
我觉得如果你拥有两三个帝国头衔长达200年，就应该被允许创建一个新的霸权。
 
DaleDenton08
Likes: -2
Is the Angevin Empire too out there for a hegemony?
 
安茹帝国作为霸权是不是会有点离谱？
 
Attlai
Likes: 6
Absolutely ahahah! It comes nothing near to what I consider a hegemony (though I'm not a ck3 dev, mind you). Imho, the only hegemon that makes sense in Christian europe is the Roman Empire
 
当然离谱，哈哈哈！它跟我认为的霸权差远了（提醒一下，我可不是CK3的开发者）。在我看来，在基督教欧洲唯一讲得通的霸权就是罗马帝国。
 
DaleDenton08
Likes: 0
What about the Carolingian Empire?
 
那加洛林帝国呢？
 
Attlai
Likes: 6
The Carolingian empire is really just the Holy Roman Empire, aka a pretender to restore the Roman hegemon
 
加洛林帝国实际上就是神圣罗马帝国，也就是一个试图恢复罗马霸权的宣称者。
 
serkanbaltali
Likes: 5
for me, if it's pretending to be something else (roman empire in the case of carolingian) then it's not an hegemon
 
对我来说，如果它只是在冒充别的什么（比如加洛林冒充罗马帝国），那它就不是霸权。