外网热议：为什么F-35被认为是失败的，尽管它是世界上唯一一架具有隐身性、敏捷性、海军兼容性和超音速的飞机？

Ati Cheema
There is no need to like the F-35. Perhaps you believe that it was too expensive or took too long to fix. Fair enough. But here’s the truth: the world becomes more dangerous, not less. Missiles are everywhere in Ukraine. It is the season of drones in the Middle East. Tensions are rising in Asia. If a jet is non-stealthy it is easy to hit. We are not theorising here – that is what is going on.

没必要喜欢F-35。也许你认为它太贵了，或者花了太长时间才修好。这都很合理。但事实是：世界变得更危险了，而不是更安全。导弹遍布乌克兰。中东地区正值无人机盛行。亚洲紧张局势正在加剧。如果一架喷气式飞机没有隐身能力，它就很容易被击中。我们在这里不是在理论探讨——这就是正在发生的事情。


Old jets are not able to operate in such battles. Stealth is no longer a fancy supplementary thing. It is the difference between being alive and being shot down. The F-35 had its problems, sure. But it’s flying now. It works. Israel’s using it in combat. It is coming from the ships in the U.S. It can avoid radar, share info and strike before it is seen.

老旧战机已无法适应此类战场环境。隐身技术不再是什么锦上添花的附加功能，而是关乎生死存亡的关键差异——能存活还是被击落，全系于此。
F-35确实曾有问题，但如今已投入实战：
· 以色列正将其运用于作战行动
· 美军舰载机型已形成战斗力
其核心优势体现在：
✓ 雷达规避能力
✓ 战场信息共享系统
✓ 先敌发现的打击能力


Could we build something better? Possibly, but this will take 10–15 years. We do not have that sort of time. The F-35 is not perfect but it is ready now. And that matters.

我们能造出更好的东西吗？可能可以，但这需要10-15年。我们没有那么多时间。F-35并不完美，但它现在已经准备好了。这很重要。

This is not a showboat jet. It is about being prepared for things to go bad. And in case of a major war – and let’s face it, maybe it will happen – the weaker side with old planes is going to have serious troubles.

这架飞机不是用来炫耀的。它是为了应对可能发生的糟糕情况而准备的。如果发生重大战争——让我们面对现实，也许真的会发生——使用老旧飞机的弱势一方将会面临严重麻烦。


The F-35 is about staying alive.

F-35关系到能否活下来。

Rodra Hascaryo
Ukraine, Israel, and now Pakistan-India proved beyond reasonable doubt why old non-stealthy airplanes are on their way out and why the expensive investment in the F-35 was not only warranted but also timely.

乌克兰、以色列，以及现在的巴基斯坦和印度，都无可辩驳地证明了为什么老旧的非隐身飞机正在被淘汰，以及为什么对F-35进行昂贵投资不仅是合理的，而且是急需的。


They have very limited survivability vs modern missiles.

它们在面对现代导弹时生存能力非常有限。

The problem with the F-35 was it was expensive and people didn’t think that was necessary. “We won’t have any more wars where we need expensive stealth fighters!” Turns out, they’re wrong.

F-35的问题在于它很贵，而且人们认为没必要。“我们不会再有需要昂贵隐形战斗机的战争了！”事实证明，他们错了。

Yes, rationally nobody would fight that kind of war anymore because it’s so horrendously expensive that you can’t possibly gain anything to offset the cost. But why don’t you tell that to Putin before Feb 2022? You think he’d change his mind? And despite all the losses over the past few years, Russia is still intent on fighting in Ukraine. Point being, assuming that everyone will act rationally is silly and you got to be prepared for nonsense.

确实，从理性角度而言，如今已无人愿打这种战争——代价高昂到根本不可能通过收益弥补。但这话你在2022年2月前对普京说试试？你觉得他会改变主意吗？尽管过去几年损失惨重，俄罗斯至今仍在乌克兰鏖战。这恰恰说明：假定所有人都会理性行事是愚蠢的，必须为各种荒唐情况做好准备。


The F-35 is simply a part of that preparation.

F-35只是这种准备工作的一部分。

True, the F-35 is still having a few problems, but its critics ignored how successful Israeli F-35 had been in the past few years and focused on its issues.

诚然，F-35仍然有一些问题，但批评者们忽略了以色列F-35在过去几年中取得的成功，而仅仅关注它的问题。

Imagine if the F-35 was cancelled and now the US Air Force is scrambling to make a new stealth strike jet. Even assuming the absolute best scenario where literally nothing went wrong down to the smallest nuts and bolts, it would take 10 years or something that from concept to prototype and then to production because of how much of a leap it was.

想象一下，如果F-35被取消了，现在美国空军正在争分夺秒地制造一种新的隐形攻击机。即使假设在一切顺利、甚至连最小的螺母螺栓都没出问题的最佳情况下，从概念到原型机再到生产，也需要10年左右的时间，因为它是一个巨大的飞跃。

Thierry Etienne Joseph Rotty
It is about cost and maintenance.

这关乎成本和维护。

An F-35 and its spare parts are far more expensive than, for example, an F-16.

一架F-35及其备件比一架F-16要贵得多。

While their combat load is roughly the same, your spare parts will cost you three times as much and your maintenance four times as much.

虽然它们的作战载荷大致相同，但你的备件成本会是它的三倍，维护成本会是它的四倍。

Simple example.

一个简单的例子。

I have an F-16 that flies a deep strike mission once a day. OK, the risk of being shot down in an intensive air defence environment is higher, but I have an aircraft with cheap maintenance and cheap spare parts.

我有一架F-16，每天执行一次深度打击任务。好的，在密集防空环境下的被击落风险更高，但我拥有一架维护成本低廉、备件便宜的飞机。

Now, if I want to fly the same deep strike mission once every day, I will need four F-35s as they will require a lot more maintenance and the spare parts cost me three times as much.

现在，如果我想每天执行一次相同的深度打击任务，我将需要四架F-35，因为它们需要更多的维护，而且备件成本是我的三倍。

The overall cost of deploying a single F-16 is considerably less than deploying four F-35s.

部署一架F-16的总成本远低于部署四架F-35。

Now calculate the cost of an F-35 compared to an F-16 over a 40 year lifespan.

现在计算一下F-35与F-16在40年寿命周期内的成本。

From the point of view of the accountant, the F-35 is crap. You need a large budget before you can deploy the F-35 compared to the F-16. In practice this means politicians will think twice about deploying the F-35 … meaning that for a lot in the military, the F-35 is crap as well as it is an aircraft that is usually tucked away in an hangar and not deployed.

从会计师的角度来看，F-35就是垃圾。与F-16相比，你需要一个庞大的预算才能部署F-35。实际上，这意味着政客们在部署F-35时会三思而行……也就是说，对于军队中的许多人来说，F-35也是垃圾，因为它通常被藏在机库里，而不是被部署出去。

History teaches us that expensive weapon systems, no matter how good their performance, are crap when it comes to practical purposes because of the costs.

历史告诉我们，昂贵的武器系统，无论其性能多好，在实际使用中都是垃圾，因为成本太高。

The most important aspect in government is the budget, nothing ever happens without an approved budget. The more expensive a weapon system is, the less likely it会被部署。

政府中最重要的一环是预算，没有批准的预算就什么也不会发生。武器系统越贵，被部署的可能性就越小。

Jack Menendez
The F-35 was sold to Congress on the notion that it would replace all of the existing F-15-EX, F-16, FA-18, and A-10. Even F-22 production was cut short partly because the F-35 would be able to carry out some of its missions and all of this would happen by 2013, but none of those things happened and still hasn't happened and the whole program it is an epic disastor. It will be another ten years before the F-35 has the computational resource and software to do what it was supposed to do back in 2013.

F-35项目当初是以这样一个设想向国会推销的：它将取代所有现有的 F-15EX、F-16、FA-18 和 A-10，甚至 F-22 的生产也被提前终止，部分原因是认为 F-35 能够执行其中一些任务。所有这些原本都应在 2013 年之前实现，但实际上没有一项真正实现，直到现在也没有发生。整个项目可以说是一次史诗级的灾难。F-35 至少还需要十年时间，才有可能具备其在 2013 年就应该具备的计算能力和软件功能。

Let's be frank about this, the entire $2.1 trillion dollars F-35 program is really nothing more than a jobs program and so is NGAD.

坦率地说，整个价值2.1万亿美元的F-35项目实际上只不过是一个增加就业项目，NGAD（下一代空中优势）也是如此。

Marcello Gusberti
Only right one is (for now) naval compatible, the rest is absolutely not true.

目前唯一正确的一点是它（目前）具备海军兼容性，其余的说法绝对不是真的。

First one : actually every plane in service in a functional Air force has , by a considerable degree, a great deal of RCS signature reduction applied. Stealth take it just a degree further but at a considerable cost and ABOVE all maintenance requirements that allow just for a dramatically low operational readiness.

第一点：实际上，一个正常运作的空军现役的每一架飞机，在很大程度上都进行了大量的雷达反射截面积（RCS）信号缩减。隐身只是在此基础上更进一步，但付出了相当大的成本，最重要的是维护要求极高，导致作战准备度极低。

In any case there are also the F-2A, the Su-57 and above all the J-20. Other are incoming : J-35, and Boramae are already in serial production.

无论如何，还有F-2A、苏-57，最重要的是歼-20。其他正在到来：歼-35和KF-21“猎鹰”（Boramae）已经开始批量生产。

Agile, who? Fat Amy? No TVC, no Canards, no Lerx nothing that suggest it could be better than a legacy teen fighter.

敏捷？谁？胖艾米？没有推力矢量控制（TVC），没有鸭翼，没有边条翼，没有任何迹象表明它会比老式的“青少年”战斗机更好。

Supersonic? Just barely. Not even close to an absolutely normal 2 mach.

超音速？勉强。甚至连正常的2马赫都差得远。

And in any case no, the F-35 is not considered a failure only a disappointment and an under performer.

无论如何，不，F-35不是一个失败的产品，只是一个令人失望和性能不足的产品。

But this could be said of ALL the other 5° generation planes actually in service (except the J-20).

但这可以适用于所有其他正在服役的第五代飞机（歼-20除外）。

To put it in short , it seems that is almost impossible to attain a stable configuration for a 5° generation plane and then “freeze” the development and begin to produce them en masse.

简而言之，似乎几乎不可能为第五代飞机获得稳定的配置，然后“冻结”开发并开始大规模生产它们。

With F-117A, B-2A and F-22A they have already thrown the blanket, F-35 and Su-57 are still struggling to get there.

对于F-117A、B-2A和F-22A，他们已经盖棺定论了，F-35和苏-57仍在努力达到那个阶段。

So, it could also be that when (and IF) they would have solved all their own issues a viable 6° gen plane would be ready for serial production instead.

因此，也可能当他们（如果）解决了所有自身问题时，一款可行的第六代飞机反而已经准备好批量生产了。

Dominik Schachtsiek
The premise of the question is wrong.

这个问题的前提是错误的。

If you are looking at the long list of countries which are waiting for their very own F-35’s, you really cannot consider it a failure.

如果你看看那些正在等待自己F-35的国家的长串名单，你真的不能认为它是一个失败产品。

Nearly a thousand airfrxs have been built (until 2023).

（截至2023年）已经建造了近千架机身。

Not one country, which has been in the market for a next generation fighter jet and which are eligible for a F-35 has been sexting against the F-35! Despite the fact, that the countries might need to wait for several years in line - and despite the fact, that the F-35 is a reasonable expensive (and expensive to maintain) airfrx.

没有一个正在寻求下一代战斗机且符合购买F-35条件的国家，选择不购买F-35！尽管事实是这些国家可能需要排队等待几年——尽管事实是F-35是一种相当昂贵（且维护费用高昂）的战斗机。

So no - the F-35 is by experts not considered a failure. Rather the opposite!

所以，不——F-35并未被专家们视为失败。事实恰恰相反！

Somnath Ghosh
Who needs it and why?

谁需要它，为什么？

It may be the best in its category and possibly true, but why does any country need it as a self preserver, except America herself?

它可能是同类中最好的，这或许是真的，但除了美国自己，为什么任何国家需要它来自我保护呢？

Other non US aircraft are good enough for limited purposes . Nobody is planning for a semi apocalypse, even if a deflated US is trying to project it

其他非美国制造的飞机对于有限用途而言已经足够优秀。即便是一个实力衰退的美国正试图渲染半末日场景，也没人真正在为这种灾难性局面做打算。

All countries have seen through US outdated political chicanery. Trump has more than helped them in their conviction

所有国家都已经看穿了美国过时的政治伎俩。特朗普更是坚定了他们的这一信念。

Let the US fight its own battles or prostrate to Osama Land

让美国自己去打仗，或者向“本·拉登之地”屈膝投降吧。

Painkuid
f35 does not have long combat range and relies heavily on the support of non-stealth assets (carriers, support ships, tanker aircraft, etc.) which means the enemy does not need to track the f35 but only needs to track the supporting assets to kill the f35. obviusly, the f35 was designed to fight the taliban/similar even though the Taliban themselves do not have an anti-aircraft system.

F-35存在明显的作战半径局限，且高度依赖非隐身作战体系的支援（包括航母、补给舰、加油机等）。这意味着敌方无需直接追踪F-35本身，只需锁定其支援体系即可有效压制该战机。显然，F-35的设计初衷是针对塔利班等非正规武装——尽管塔利班连最基本的防空系统都不具备。

in conventional warfare, the party that has a fighter/bomber with a long range is usually the winner. for example: in the Pacific war, the United States can bomb the industrial center of Tokyo while Japan itself cannot bomb the industrial center on the west/east coast of the USA.

在常规战争中，拥有远程战斗机/轰炸机的一方通常是赢家。例如：在太平洋战争中，美国可以轰炸东京的工业中心，而日本自己却无法轰炸美国西海岸/东海岸的工业中心。

to be honest, the prospects for American fighter aircraft are starting to get a bit bleak, the United States continues to produce the f35 even though they know that aircraft cannot survive a real conventional war

老实说，美国战斗机的前景开始变得有点黯淡，美国持续生产F-35，尽管他们知道这种飞机无法在真正的常规战争中生存。

Julian Pereira
Well there are a few reasons

嗯，有几个原因。

1 No adversary of the US has yet made a weapon even close to the F35.

1 美国没有任何对手制造出接近F-35的武器。

2 No ally of the US has yet made a weapon even close to the F35.

2 美国没有任何盟友制造出接近F-35的武器。

3 No adversary has made a weapon close to the F15. The Su27 family is proven to be useless against it.

3 没有对手制造出接近F-15的武器。苏-27家族已被证明对它毫无用处。

4 No adversary has made a weapon even close to the F16. The Su27 has proven to be useless against it.

4 没有对手制造出接近F-16的武器。苏-27已被证明对它毫无用处。

5 No adversary has made a weapon even close to the F18. The Su27 family is likely useless against this as well.

5 没有对手制造出接近F-18的武器。苏-27家族也可能对它毫无用处。

6 No adversary has made a weapon close to the defunct F14.

6 没有对手制造出接近已退役的F-14的武器。

7 It is an expensive aircraft to maintain and deploy.

7 它是一种维护和部署费用高昂的飞机。

That's about it. The US allies have aircraft in the range of capability of the F14 to F18. No US enemy does.

差不多就是这些了。美国的盟友拥有能力介于F-14到F-18之间的飞机。美国的敌人没有。

The US has gone from being some 10 to 15 years ahead of China and Russia to something like 25 to 40

美国已经从领先中国和俄罗斯大约10到15年，变为领先大约25到40年。

Essentially it is too good an aircraft.

本质上，它是一架太好的飞机了。