印度军迷：我们海军舰艇的现代化程度如何？

spec_tre
Isn't that the JMSDF Mogami

这不是日本海上自卫队的最上号吗？

GabruGorilla
Yes it is. On the occasion of the commissioning of INS Surat, i wanted to see what other nations fare comparitively.

是的。在苏拉特号服役之际，我想看看其他国家的情况如何。

ThunderWiz05
Japanese are still ahead but the gap is now very close with each new generation of ships.

日本仍处于领先地位，但现在每一代新一代船舶的差距都非常接近。

GabruGorilla
Pictured Above: JS Mogami , A Frigate.

上图：海自最上号，一艘护卫舰。

Salient Features: Stealth Profile ( Very tucked in), Electric Propulsion, 127mm Gun, 16 VLS for air defence.

显着特点：隐形外形（非常隐蔽）、电力推进、127 毫米火炮、16个VLS 用于防空。

Now Japan is basically a protectorate of the US with a constitutional obligation to limit defence spending.

现在日本基本上是美国的保护国，有限制国防开支的宪法义务。

Comparatively, INS Surat   

相比之下，苏拉特号

Non stealth, Noisy propulsion, 76mm gun, only 32 VLS for air defence.

非隐身，推进噪音大，76毫米火炮，只有32个VLS用于防空。

This is a "cutting edge" Destoyer.

这是一款“尖端”驱逐舰。

With neighbours like ours, with the volume of maritime trade we have can we be so complacent?

有了我们这样的邻国，有了我们这样的海上贸易量，我们能如此自满吗？

Expensive_Fact8168
You need to redo your definition of stealth in ships.

你需要重新定义船舶的隐身性。

Your VLS numbers are incorrect.

您的 VLS 数量不正确。

You don't know the context indian destroyer building right now.

你不知道印度现在驱逐舰建造的背景。

GabruGorilla
check wiki brother, only 32 Barak 8 are present.

检查一下wiki兄弟，只有32个，采用Barak 8。

Brahmos is anti-ship/anti-surface.

布拉莫斯是反舰/反水面导弹。

Pray tell? What advantages are there in being outgunned.

求告知？处于劣势算什么优势。

Expensive_Fact8168
Barak 8 is a SAM lMao. Do you not know what a VLS is?

Barak 8 是 防空导弹，哈哈哈。你不知道VLS是什么吗？

Of course you don't know about the Indian ship building with that knowledge.

当然，你不了解印度造船业的这些知识。

Just look at the numbers that are being built and what the next class of destroyers is, I don't think anymore will be needed after that.

只要看看正在建造的数字以及下一级别的驱逐舰是什么，我认为在那之后就不再需要说什么了。

GabruGorilla
Barak 8 is stored in VLS no? Isn't the no. of VLS less compared to its peers.

Barak 8 是否装在 VLS 中，没有吧？与同行相比，VLS 数量不是更少吗？

Also you can't ignore the reduced stealth and dated mechanical propulsion system. it's noisy and inefficient, thereby reducing range.

此外，你也不能忽视隐身性的降低和过时的机械推进系统。它噪音大且效率低，从而缩小了航程。

I ask again, why are latest ships fielding dated technology?

我再问一次，为什么最新的舰艇配备了过时的技术？

Squishy_Kitten109
By your definition of stealth 90% of stealth ships aren't stealthy. And propulsion noise in surface ships doesn't matter much anyway, you will still be detected by an underwater sonar. VL-SRSAM will probably be added in the next refit.

根据你对隐形的定义，90%的隐形舰艇都不是隐形的。无论如何，水面舰艇的推进噪音并不重要，仍然会被水下声纳检测到。 VL-SR 防空导弹可能会在下次改装中加入。

GabruGorilla
I'm just comparing the cutting edge stuff. The Mogami was commissioned in 2022. The Surat in 2025. We're nowheee near the cutting edge.

我只是比较最前沿的东西。 最上号于 2022 年投入使用。苏拉特号于 2025 年投入使用。我们还没有接近最前沿。

Interesting VL-SRSAM news. Is it confirmed or speculation?

有趣的 VL-SR SAM 新闻。得到证实还是猜测？

Fire_Breather178
Just by looking at the pics...there's space for more to be added. So it might just be speculation at this point.

只需看看图片……而且它有空间增加更多装备。所以目前这可能只是猜测。

pootis28
They're modern enough. Just terribly underarmed in terms of armament and take an extremely long time to build. They have few VLS cells, and none of them have quad packing capability. A single Type 055 frigate has nearly half the VLS cells compared to the entire Indian surface fleet(272 vs 112), and they're building 16 of them on top the several dozen Type 052D destroyers and frigates each. The main fucking culprit is that stupidass RBU-6000 which are used in every single ship that occupy space. Mainly because they're fairly cheap. Another culprit is the extensive use of CIWS, specifically the AK-630. Even our frigates have 2 CIWS. CIWS in general are fairly outdated at this point and would not be enough to defend against a saturated attack of supersonic missiles.

它们足够现代。只是在武器装备方面严重不足，而且需要很长时间才能建造。它们的 VLS 单元很少，并且没有一个具有四联装能力。一艘 055 型护卫舰拥有的 VLS 单元就达到了整个印度海军的一半（272 个 vs 112 个），并且他们建造了16艘，还有分别有数十艘 052D 型驱逐舰和护卫舰。主要的罪魁祸首是那个愚蠢的RBU-6000（反潜火箭发射器），它被用在每艘船上占位置。主要是因为它们相当便宜。另一个罪魁祸首是广泛使用的 CIWS（近防系统） ，特别是 AK-630。甚至我们的护卫舰也有 2 台 CIWS。目前，CIWS总体上已经相当过时，不足以防御超音速导弹的饱和攻击。

This is a thing our future destroyer(and further ships down the line) seek to remedy. Project-18 destroyer is set to have anywhere between 126-144 VLS cells, and they'd have quad packing capability too. Too bad it's a decade away from commissioning.

这是我们未来的驱逐舰（以及未来的其他舰艇）需要解决的问题。 Project-18 驱逐舰将配备 126-144 个 VLS 单元，并且还具有四联装能力。可惜距离试运行还有十年时间。

Stock_Outcome3900
Are you sure about that even combining all our destroyers' vls would be around 520

你确定吗？即使只把我们所有驱逐舰的 vls 加起来也会在 520 个左右。

Jazzlike-Tank-4956
Great boats   

很棒的船

Primary radar are one of the best

主雷达是最好的雷达之一

Replacement in future ships is basically SPY 6 and it's variants

未来舰艇基本会更换 SPY 6 及其衍生版

Secondary radars are outdated Bel radars on most ships, but they are being replaced by Lanza, which are great

大多数船上的二次雷达都是过时的 Bel 雷达，但它们正在被 Lanza 取代，Lanza 非常棒

The sonar suite is alright as per frequencies

声纳套件的频率正常

Lack of VDS is problematic

缺乏 VDS 是有问题的

SAMs are Barak 8s, which are extremely competent thrust vectoring active radar missile with range from 0.5km to 100km. So, unlike other SAMs like HHQ11, you don't need another set just for point blank.

地对空导弹是巴拉克8，这是一种非常强大的推力矢量主动雷达导弹，射程为0.5公里至100公里。因此，与 HHQ11 等其他 SAM 不同，不需要另外一套就能进行直接攻击。

Though VLS count is low for these

尽管 VLS 数量对于这些舰艇来说较低

Though, we're lacking in terms of BMD missiles like SM3 or very long range like SM6; in addition to more varity of SAMs like RIM116.

不过，我们缺乏像 SM3 这样的 BMD 导弹或像 SM6 这样的超远程导弹；除了 RIM116 等更多种类的 SAM 之外。

We already plan to fix these deficiencies with Project Kusha, and VL-SRSAM would also replace outdated very short range Barak 1s.

我们已经计划通过 Kusha 项目来修复这些缺陷，VL-SRSAM 还将取代过时的超短程 Barak 1。

2-4 AK630 are used, whose FCS and radar is doubted but we can slav it via main radars.

使用了2-4台AK630，其FCS和雷达受到怀疑，但我们可以通过主雷达管理它。

The gun is 76mm Otto, which is pretty competent for air defence and other roles. We were going for 127mm in Nilgiri but cost and standardisation proved to be a problem.

该炮为76毫米奥托炮，相当能胜任防空等角色。我们在尼尔吉里级选择 127 毫米炮，但成本和标准化方面已证明有问题。

AshM/land attack is BrahMos which is extremely competent mach 3 capable cruise missile. Now this one is much heavier than other contemporary missile so don't be surprised when it's not carried as much though counti sstill decent on destroyers.

AshM/陆地攻击是布拉莫斯导弹，这是一种非常有能力的 3 马赫巡航导弹。现在，这枚导弹比其他当代导弹重得多，所以当它没有那么多携带时不要感到惊讶，尽管在驱逐舰上仍然算不错的。

Nirbhay variants would complement these

Nirbhay 变体将补充这些东西

Torpedoes are competent heavy 533mm aswell, with radio guidance(?)

重型 533 毫米鱼雷也很强大，带有无线电制导（？）

Concluding, the boats are absolutely amazing with few deficiencies which we could fix in upcoming decade

总之，这些船绝对令人惊叹，但存在一些我们在未来十年内难以修复的缺陷

Though, we also need to work on even better Shipbuilding efficiency and indiginous content since it has delayed our ships over and over from time and time again

尽管如此，我们还需要努力提高造船效率和本土化内容，因为它一次又一次地延误了我们的舰艇建造。

GabruGorilla
Thankyou for the detailed reply.

谢谢您的详细回复。

Is the news about including VLSRSAM integration at later stage confirmed or copium?

关于后期整合 VLSRSAM 的消息已得到确认还是嘴硬？

Also i see that we're talking to JP for their Unicorn Mast and to UK for their electric propulsion tech. Will these be included in the next generation destroyers?

我还看到我们正在与日本讨论他们的独角兽桅杆，并与英国讨论他们的电力推进技术。这些会被包含在下一代驱逐舰中吗？

Jazzlike-Tank-4956
Unicorn mast, probably   

独角兽桅杆，可能

Electric propulsion was for our LHD afaik

如果我没记错，电力推进是为我们的 LHD 设计的

Prohect 18 would use LM2500

Prohect 18将使用LM2500

Let's see   

拭目以待

It's atleast gping to replace Barak 1s

至少会取代Barak 1

Ambushido96
yeah everything navy is doing is excellent just the low VLS count per ship confuses me,

是的，海军所做的一切都非常出色，只是每艘船低下的 VLS 数量让我感到困惑，

as in most navy have 1 class of ship that is 100+ vls cells we have none it is proposed now but i thought after barak and bramhos navy would try to makes ships with 100+ vls filled with baraks and bramhos or am i missing anything.

因为大多数国家的海军都有 1 级舰艇，装备 100 多个 vls 单元，我们现在没有，但我想在获得巴拉克和布拉莫斯之后，海军会尝试制造拥有 100 多个 vls 的舰艇，里面装满巴拉克和布拉姆霍斯，或者我错过了什么。

but apart from that its doing great i think.

但除此之外，我认为它做得很好。

proto101
Mogamis are pretty poorly armed. Our destroyers are behind Aegis+ UVLS ones from US, Japan, Soko etc but way ahead of ships like Mogami or newer European frigates all of which are armed very lightly.

最上级的武装很差。我们驱逐舰的宙斯盾+ UVLS落后于美国、日本、世宗大王等驱逐舰，但远远领先于最上级或较新的欧洲护卫舰，所有这些舰艇的武装都很弱。

Spacegeek269
What are those long stick-like things?

那些长棍子一样的东西是什么？

KingCryptAlgo
Could have carried more missiles.

本来可以携带更多导弹。

AIM-120-AMRAAM
Every thing is modern and state of art.

一切都是现代且先进的。

The only thing we lack is VLS.

我们唯一缺少的是VLS。

I’ll show how Indian Navy ships fail to utilise space for more VLS. Idk if our missiles are large or VLS take too much space or We don’t want to remove unnecessary RBU rockets on modern destroyers.

我将展示印度海军舰艇如何未能利用空间来部署更多的垂直发射系统。我不知道我们的导弹是否很大，或者 VLS 占用了太多空间，或者我们不想从现代驱逐舰上拆除不必要的 RBU 火箭。

Comment Image
This is how INS Nilgiri our most modern frigate look. See the wasted space everywhere.

这就是我们最现代化的护卫舰尼尔吉里号的外观。浪费的空间随处可见。

See reply for how Admiral Gorshkov frigate looks like

戈尔什科夫海军上将号护卫舰长什么样见回复

AIM-120-AMRAAM
Admiral Gorshkov is 4,550 tons while Nilgiri is 6,670 tons. Yet Gorshkov packs wayy more firepower.

戈尔什科夫海军上将号为4,550吨，尼尔吉里号为6,670吨。然而戈尔什科夫号的火力要强大得多。

Gorshkov has 2x8=16 anti ship missiles and 32 SAMs while Nilgiri being 2000 tons heavier has only 8 Brahmos and 32 Barak SAMs.

戈尔什科夫号拥有 2x8=16 枚反舰导弹和 32 枚 SAM，而尼尔吉里号比它重 2000 吨，只有 8 枚布拉莫斯和 32 枚巴拉克 SAM。

Jazzlike-Tank-4956
Weight of boat is mainly concerned with what instruments you're adding in it

船的重量主要与在船上安装的仪器有关

Nilgiri has much better sensor and radar suite, plus better propulsion dor that matter

尼尔吉里号拥有更好的传感器和雷达套件，以及更重要的推进力

Also, not all VLS are born equal. BrahMos is more heavy than Kalibres by more than a ton

此外，并非所有 VLS 都是一样的。 BrahMos 比 Kalibres 重一吨多

AIM-120-AMRAAM
Cannot be heavy than Oniks which can be carrier by Gorshkov. Wiki shows both weight 3000kg.

不可能比戈尔什科夫可以携带的红宝石导弹重。维基百科显示两者重量均为3000公斤。

Our destroyers carry too less AShMs. Similar ships of western and Chinese navy carry more.

我们的驱逐舰携带的反舰导弹太少了。西方和中国海军的同类舰艇载弹量更多。

Dutch frigates have similar AshMs compared to INS Vishakapatnam for some reason

出于某种原因，荷兰护卫舰的反舰导弹与维沙卡帕特南号相似。

Jazzlike-Tank-4956
BrahMos is based on Oniks. We funded an uncomplete program in 90s, which eventually became BrahMos; so I wouldn't consider it Indian even though we've largely replaced components bar the engine and a few others.

BrahMos 基于 Oniks。我们在 90 年代资助了一个未完成的项目，最终成为 BrahMos；所以我不认为它是印度的，尽管我们已经更换了大部分部件（除了发动机和其他一些部件）。

Russians usually standardise on Kalibre and other missiles with recent small shift to Zircon. Oniks is in far little use as compared to these

俄罗斯通常对“口径”和其他导弹进行标准化，最近又小幅转向“锆石”。与这些相比，红宝石的用处要小得多。

western and Chinese navy carry more.

西方和中国海军携带的武器更多。

Probably because these ships are based on pretty old designs, especially in times where we had limited technology and money. Kolkata Class was designed in 80/90s, and Vizag is based on the same

可能是因为这些船是基于相当古老的设计，特别是在我们技术和资金有限的时代。加尔各答级是在 80/90 年代设计的，维扎克级 也是基于同样的设计

While right now, we are in a better position, so we could build better boats, like Project 18 with 120 plus VLS and P 17B getting additional VLSs.

目前，我们的地位变好，因此我们可以建造更好的船只，例如配备 120 多个 VLS 的 Project 18 和配备更多 VLS 的 P 17B。

Some countries had help from US, and had focus on shipbuilding, like Korea so they were able to come up with Sejong the Great Class

有些国家得到了美国的帮助，专注于造船，比如韩国，所以他们能够推出世宗大王级

Same thing as before   

和以前一样

They use Harpoons, NSMs and Tomahawk, which are much lighter

他们使用鱼叉、NSM 和战斧导弹，这些武器要轻得多

Also, Dutch Frigates might as well be classified as Destroyers as per their weigjt class and arnament plus sensors.

此外，根据其重量等级和武器加传感器，荷兰护卫舰也可以归类为驱逐舰。

Navies designate ships as per role, so right now we're seeing 12k ton ships being class Destroyers instead of cruisers while 6-8k ships are called Frigates

海军根据角色给舰艇定名，所以现在有 12,000 吨级的舰艇被称为驱逐舰，而不是巡洋舰，而 6-8,000 吨的舰艇被称为护卫舰

AIM-120-AMRAAM
Dude. Everyone knows Brahmos is based on Oniks. You don’t need to type wiki page of brahmos/Oniks here.

伙计。大家都知道布拉莫斯是基于红宝石的。你不需要在重新敲一遍 布拉莫斯/红宝石 的 wiki 页面内容。

I wrote the comment to say Russians use the same weight class missiles as Brahmos still have more VLS than Indian ships.

我写这篇评论是为了说俄罗斯使用与布拉莫斯相同重量级的导弹，但仍然比印度舰艇拥有更多的垂直发射系统。

Probably   

大概

Wouldn’t it be better to research before speaking if you don’t know something?

如果你不知道某个东西，在说话之前先研究一下不是更好吗？

The Chinese ships are in no way “old design”

中国舰艇绝不是“旧设计”

It has nothing to do with ship design or ship being old or new.

它与船舶设计或船舶新旧无关。

My friend is a Lieutenant in IN design bureau. He says we can easily fit Vishakhpatnam class with more VLS but we decided not to.

我的朋友是IN设计局的中尉。他说我们可以轻松地为 维萨卡帕特南 级配备更多 VLS，但我们决定不这样做。

It has more to do with Indian doctrine than design. We want a deterrent navy not an attacking force. We are focussed on sea denial than aggression. Hence less missiles. This might bite us in long run.

它更多地与印度的军事学说有关，而不是设计。我们想要一支具有威慑力的海军，而不是一支进攻性部队。我们关注的是海上拒止而不是侵略。因此导弹较少。从长远来看，这可能会伤害我们。

I think you should study on that or ask some naval veterans on twitter some are pretty active regarding it instead of writing thesis about Oniks Destroyers and cruisers.

我认为你应该对此进行研究，或者在推特上询问一些海军退伍军人，他们对此非常活跃，而不是撰写有关红宝石、驱逐舰和巡洋舰的论文。

Jazzlike-Tank-4956
Talking about Indian boats, like I explained.

正如我所解释的，我说的是印度船只。

Didn't even talk about Chinese

根本没说中国船只

on sea denial than aggression. Hence less missiles.

海上拒止而非侵略。因此导弹较少。

Then why do Projects 18 and 17B posses much higher VLS?

那么为什么P18和P17B拥有更多的VLS呢？

Surely got to do with cost and time aswell which would've taken for Vizag

当然也与 维扎克级 所花费的成本和时间有关

I'm aware about their doctrine

我了解他们的军事学说。

AIM-120-AMRAAM
Why   

为什么

Coz except Indian navy all other navies are doing it. 3-4 Chinese ships will have more Ashms than entire Indian navy destroyers at this point.

因为除了印度海军之外，所有其他海军都在这样做。目前，3-4艘中国舰艇的反舰导弹数量将超过印度海军的全部驱逐舰。

New Type 055 destroyers have 136 VLS compared to 48 VLS of IN destroyers.

新型 055 型驱逐舰拥有 136 个 VLS，而印度海军驱逐舰只有 48 个 VLS。

IN is losing the displacement, armament as well as numbers game against China so they have to up everything.

印度在排水量、武器装备和数量上都输给了中国，所以他们必须全力以赴。

India is changing its tactics entirely based on its enemies.

印度正在完全根据敌人来改变其策略。

Also where did MoD or Navy specify there will be more VLS in 17B?

另外，国防部或海军在哪里说了 17B 中将有更多 VLS？

Also project 18 is not even properly noted on GoI’s documents. It will take 10 years to complete.

此外，GoI 的文件中甚至没有正确注明P18。需要10年时间才能完成。

China is churning out 4-5 destroyed a year

中国每年推出4-5艘

Jazzlike-Tank-4956
I don't remember clearly but I'll let you know tomorrow

我记不太清楚了，不过明天我会告诉你的

Iirc, it was basically based on stated larger displacement and much higher costs in addition to design and component changes oweing to various components being in negative import list like MF-STAR

如果我没记错，它基本上是基于规定的更大的排量和更高的成本，以及由于各种部件被列入负面进口清单（如 MF-STAR）而导致的设计和部件变化

I'll still take it with a pinch of salt

我依然会带着怀疑看待。

AIM-120-AMRAAM
Good for yon. Unlike you I dont take random whatsapp news as trusted.

你随便。与你不同，我不相信随机的朋友圈新闻。

Just few days more till your FICV is unveiled remember your claims?

距离您的 FICV 公布还有几天，还记得您的说法吗？

PotatoEatingHistory
Exceptional in most ways except armament quantities

除军备数量外，在大多数方面都表现出色

voltrix_raider
The older ones, not great. Rajput class boats and soviet boats are pretty old though they have been somewhat modernized. The newer Project 15B and 15A destroyers, are very good. Even our new frigates are pretty good. Modern radars, missiles, EW suites, etc. Navy has done an excellent job with the modernization of their surface fleet. The submarine fleet needs work but inducting Scorpene class submarines is a good start.

比较老，并不好。拉杰普特级舰艇和来自苏联的舰艇虽然已经进行了一定程度的现代化改造，但相当老旧。较新的 Project 15B 和 15A 驱逐舰非常好。即使我们的新护卫舰也相当不错。现代雷达、导弹、电子战套件等。海军在水面舰队的现代化方面做得非常出色。潜艇舰队需要改进，但引进鲉鱼级潜艇是一个好的开始。

Eternal_awp
Quite modern   

相当现代

Soumya_Adrian
SUFFICIENTLY MODERN   

足够现代

GabruGorilla
> Non stealth, Noisy propulsion, 76mm gun, only 32 VLS for air defence.

> 非隐身、推进噪音大、76 毫米火炮、仅 32个VLS 用于防空。

Soumya_Adrian
How did u conclude these ??? Which ships are u referring ?

你是怎么得出这些结论的？你指的是哪艘船？

76mm gun, only 32 VLS for air defence.

76毫米火炮，只有32个VLS用于防空。

So...???

所以... ？？？

GabruGorilla
No electric propulsion, antennas sticking out.

没有电力推进，天线显眼。