美国军事博主以数据对比J20和F35等多款五代战斗机，到底谁更强？（二）
American F-35s encounter Chinese J-20s over the Pacific
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The F-35's RCS is smaller than F-22's, the 0.005m2 figure were old estimates and requirement. The F-35 exceeded this parameter
F-35的RCS（雷达截面）比F-22的要小，0.005平方米是很久以前的估计和要求了。现在的F-35已经超过了这个参数
So, which one had detected the other first and, at what distance?
那么，到底是谁先发现了对方，距离有多远？
The J20 can’t download a lower RCS, and as such is limited by the airfrx regardless of its other systems.
J20没有实现低RCS（雷达截面，又代表隐身能力），因此无论J20的其他系统如何，它的隐身能力都受到机身的限制。
I wonder what the next descxtion we will use for fighters after stealth? We call the f35 a stealth fighter but I think its more of a smart fighter.
我想知道在隐形之后我们会用什么来描述战机？我们称f35为隐形战机，但我认为它更像是一款智能战机。
China's J-10 looks like a love child between a RAF EJ2000 Typhoon and an USAF F-16 fighting falcon.
The Japanese and South Koreans are developing a stealth aircraft too, the Japanese in conjunction with BAE systems with its Tempest program.
中国的歼-10看起来就像是英国皇家空军的EJ2000台风战斗机和美国空军的F-16战斗猎鹰战斗机相爱之后生的孩子。
日本和韩国也在开发一种隐形飞机，日本与BAE系统公司正在联合开发“暴风雨”项目。
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“Dogfights won’t be a thing in the future.” Until stealth cancels out those long range missiles and fighters find themselves in the merge at the same time they realize there IS an enemy fighter. Then you’ll wish you had the thrust vectoring to just point the nose and loose a Fox 2 in seconds.
Talking Hands
Man, it's too bad about the F-22s limitations because it's actually a really bad-ass fighter... Although I've always had a soft spot in my heart for the F-18E Super Hornets...
哪怕我一直对F-18E超级大黄蜂战斗机有好感……伙计，我也要说f -22的局限性太糟糕了，因为它实际上只是一种非常厉害的战斗机（指近距离空战）……
5th Gen fighters have some new technology that the 4th Gen doesn't but not necessarily stealth, tho that is the norm for now. Stealth fighter means a low radar return that prevents reliable targeting until the fighter has penetrated enough for it to have a high chance of mission success. From everything I've heard the Felon and the J-20 are 5th Gen (super cruise, beyond visual range engagement) but may not be stealth.
第五代战斗机还有一些第四代战斗机没有的新技术，但不一定非要是隐身能力，尽管这是目前大家公认的常态。隐形战斗机只是意味着低雷达回波，可以充分渗透深入任务区域完成任务。但据我所知，Felon和J-20是第五代战机的能力，是因为超级巡航，超视距作战，可不全是因为隐身能力。
What two countries have is not the key point to me, but what these fighters are used for is important to me. I know that China tries hard to strengthen its defense to protect itself including Tai Wai area, but the US, from the history, used these fighters for attacking other countries.
中美两国拥有什么战机对我来说不是重点，重要的是这些战斗机的用途。我知道中国努力加强国防以保护自己，包括台湾（地区），但从美国的历史上看，美国却是使用这些战斗机攻击其他国家。
you forgot to mention J-20 now has a twin-seat variant, a second operator can control drones and weapon systems, it is preparing for the upcoming drone age
你忘了说歼-20现在有了双座改进型，第二个操作员可以控制无人机和武器系统，他们正在为即将到来的无人机时代做准备
The Chinese says:
That's okay, we'll just have some of yours.
中国人表示：
没事，我们只是刚有了你们的一些东西。
China’s whole approach to war with US isn’t to match its capabilities 1:1, its strategy has always been to build something that is relatively competitive to US but at a significantly cheaper price / quicker, which enables it to produce at higher volume at quicker pace. J20 is a classic example of that. In the idealist engagement found in movies like top gun I am sure the f22 or f35 is a more capable fighter than j20, but a real air engagement is never 1 vs 1. Think Zerg approach vs protess :)
No one really knows if this strategy of quantity over quality will work in a real full scale war and let’s hope we will never find out. The one advantage US has that’s unmatched is the experience of its military, US has been engaged in war pretty much nonstop for the last 90+ years, it has a very experienced military, vs china whose last real war was in 1979 with Vietnam where it played out exactly like how US did, went in easy but suffered catastrophic losses trying to maintain and later during retreat. Those soldiers have all but retired, the current Chinese military has zero combat experience.
Considering how the Russians did in Ukraine and they have an experienced military fought in Syria etc…it’s a big concern for China if it ever went into a full scale engagement, although China’s technology and equipment are far superior than Russians nowadays.
中国对美国的整个作战方式并不是1:1的战机互换匹配，中国的战略一直是建造与我们相对有竞争力的东西，但他们会有明显更便宜的价格，这使中国能够以更快的速度生产更多的数量。J20就是一个经典的例子。而以电影《壮志凌云》中的理想主义交战模式，我确信f22或f35是一种比j20更有能力的战斗机（近距离空战追击），但真正的空中交战从来不是1对1的狗斗。大家想想虫族的战斗方法就知道了。
没有人真正知道这种数量重于质量的战略是否会在真正的全面战争中奏效，希望我们永远不会找到答案。美国现在拥有的一个优势是军事经验，因为美国在过去90多年里几乎一直在参战，美国有一支非常有经验的军队，而中国上一次真正的战争还是在1979年与越南的战争，那场战争就像美国对越南做的一样，轻松进入，但在试图维持阵脚，和后来撤退的过程中遭受了灾难性的损失。而这些老兵几乎都退役了，目前的中国军队没有任何战斗经验。
考虑到俄罗斯在乌克兰的表现，以及俄罗斯还有在叙利亚作战的经验丰富的军队，如果中国全面参与，战争经验将是中国的一大软肋，尽管中国的技术和装备远超俄罗斯人。
The j20 looks more dope than the f22, but looks don't make it better
j20看起来比f22更酷，但外表并不能让它真的更好
Unfortunately,for us in the west, we have NATO pilots who have gone over to China to teach them our approach to flying fighter jets and thus giving away our tactics and techniqes while also giving away how our fighters handle etc.Selling out our Air Forces is a disgrace to put it lightly.
不幸的是，对我们西方来说，我们有北约飞行员去中国教他们我们的战斗机飞行方法，从而泄露了我们的战术，同时也泄露了我们的战斗机如何操作等技术。这些出卖我们空军的人是一种耻辱。
Good luck maintaining your stealth force without chips.
祝你们在没有芯片的情况下还能保持你们故意遮遮掩掩的力量。
Its always the enemy within that causes the most damage.
造成最大伤害的总是内部的敌人。
China has some cool designs. Interesting innovation
中国有一些很酷的设计。有趣的创新
FWIW, I've read reports that Indian radars have routinely been able to detect flights by J-20s.
我读过一些报告，说是印度雷达经常能够探测到歼-20的飞行。
Bit wrong on the engines there, the WS-10C is the engine in the majority of J-20 and it isn’t a Russian based engine, it actually traces its heritage to a French engine but has little to do with it any more.
Also the WS-10A was a rough equivalent of the AL-31, the WS-10C is probably half a generation ahead.
发动机数据有点不对，WS-10C是歼20的主要发动机，但它不是俄罗斯的发动机，它实际上可以追溯到法国发动机的原型，但其实这些老黄历已经没有什么意义了。
总之WS-10A大致相当于AL-31, WS-10C可能领先了半代。
Jesus christ the F22 even after 20 years is so sexy and clean.
天啊，F22在20年后依然如此性感和干净。
The fact that the hackers were able to hack the blueprints because it was on an open network makes me suspect or completely concerned. Why wasn't it in a closed system? And physically copied and transferred to another closed system/database. I understand it's inefficient but so is staying ahead of an adversary who actively steals your technology over the internet.
事实上，黑客之所以能够入侵得到设计图，是因为这些设计图是在一个开放的网络上，这让我感到不得不质疑或很担心。为什么设计图不是在封闭系统中？直接物理复制并转移到另一个封闭的系统/数据库。我知道这么做可能存在低效的问题，但要领先于一个经常通过互联网窃取你的技术的对手，这是必须的手段。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
1 Was the F-35 in stealth mode or did it have its reflectors deployed to hide its true RCS?
2 I believed early on that its mission design was not an air superiority fighter or a land attack aircraft, but an anti-ship aircraft. Specifically, an anti carrier aircraft.
1、F-35是否处于隐身模式？还是部署了反射镜（龙伯透镜）来隐藏它真正的隐身？
2、我很早就认为F35的设计不是空中优势战斗机或对陆攻击机，而是反舰机。具体来说，是一架反航母战斗机。
Those j 20s are probably broken by the end of this video
这些j 20可能在视频结束时（指短时间内）被全部打掉
Have a hard time with a jet that's got canards is really stealthy. Anybody can enlighten me that would be great.
有鸭翼的喷气式飞机真的很隐形呢！任何人都可以来反驳我，如果你能反驳成功那就太好了。
Is the J-20 really a 5th generation fighter or a 4 1/2?
歼-20到底是第五代战机还是四代半战机？
The J-20 is impressive looking jet
J-20是一种外观令人印象深刻的喷气式飞机
This didn´t make sense at all! If the the j 20 had a RCS of 5 m2 or higher it would be less stealthy than an F-15.
I know that the j 20 isn´t as stealthy as the F-22 or F-35 but it still has many features that would reduce its RCS.
BTW In the sources i found the RCS of the j 20 was stated between 0.03 m2 and 0.2 m2 what would it make more simular to the RCS of an F-117
这根本说不通好吗！如果j 20的RCS是5平方米或更高，那么它的隐身能力将连F-15都不如。
我知道j20的隐身能力不如F-22或F-35，但它仍有许多降低RCS的特殊关键点。
顺便说一下，在资料中，我发现j 20的RCS在0.03到0.2之间，这与F-117的RCS更相似
If two opposing aircraft your absolutely stealth, how would they know they ran into each other?
如果两架相对的飞机都是绝对隐形的，他们怎么知道他们碰到了对方？
If dogfights are irrelevant wouldn't it now be advantageous to have craft that swoosh in at even higher top speeds and blast other aircraft to smithereens with rapid cannon fire that make missiles and bombs obsolete and unable to defend against such precise tracking and sudden appearance at such a close range you can't defend with missiles especially if they think dogfighting cannons are irrelevant? I think this should be considered.
如果空战真的正在变得无关紧要，那么现在有一种从更高空间以高速俯冲过来，直接用速射炮将其他飞机炸成碎片的飞船不是更有优势吗？这样一来，导弹和炸弹就过时了，无法防御如此精确的跟踪，和如此近距离的突然出现，因为导弹根本无法防御，尤其是在他们认为空战大炮无关紧要的情况下。我认为我这个想法应该被战斗机设计师认真考虑。
That J10 is at least so heavily influenced by Israel's discontinued Lavi that denial of that much is pretty much transparently insincere all other weight and size differences in those two individual fuselages considered. It would be interesting to see just how many signature similarities exist in the airfrx drawings. Not meaning to make any geopolitical point with it because it's not that surprising considering China's history of cloning what's known to work..
考虑到J10和以色列狮式战斗机两种战机机身的重量和尺寸差异，J10至少受到以色列已停止使用的狮式战机的影响很大，否认这一点显然并不真诚。人们可以看看到底有多少相似签名存在于J10的机身图纸上，这肯定会很有趣的。我并不是说要提出任何地缘政治观点，只是因为考虑到中国克隆已知有效的东西的历史，J10对狮式并不令人惊讶。
So proud to be an American
我为自己是美国人感到骄傲
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
The j20 can’t move very well. It’s so heavy and needs stronger engines.
j20不能更好地快速移动。它太重了，它需要更强劲的发动机。
F-35 - "Don't make me call my big brother!"
F-35:“别逼我给我大哥打电话！”
It seems kinda funny that China put out essentially an Ace Combat cutscene for their jet. It's like if War Thunder was putting out some new DLC. They would probably make it look better though lol
中国为他们的飞机制作了一个Ace Combat的过场动画，这看起来有点滑稽。这就像《War Thunder》发行了一些新的DLC。不过这么做可能会让它看起来更好，哈哈
words, it is all words, until the actual combat takes place , nothing can predicted, shit happens, if one can not acknowledge this who will be the victor
废话，都是废话，在真正的战斗发生之前，什么都无法预测，除非狗屎真的发生了，否则一个人不会承认另一个人是胜利者的
I highly doubt the J20 would last long in a fight with an F35 but they they come into contact with an F22 it's for sure over for the J20. Ukraine has shown us a fight with Russia (conventional) would last about a month against the US and it would be nasty! But I have to wonder if the same is true for China? Before the Ukraine invasion I was very nervous about Russia and China's capabilities but I now feel I may have undervalued the ability of US war fighting capabilities. In hindsight maybe the revamped F15 wasn't such a bad Idea considering how underwhelming Russia's air force is. Just some thoughts I have day to day...
我高度怀疑J20能在与F35战斗的战斗中坚持多久，不过如果他们与F22接触了，那么J20肯定会立马完蛋。乌克兰已经向我们表明，俄罗斯的常规战斗能力太辣鸡了！我想知道，中国是否也是如此？因为在俄罗斯入侵乌克兰之前，我一直对俄罗斯和中国的能力非常紧张，但现在我觉得我可能低估了我们美国自己的作战能力。事后看来，考虑到俄罗斯空军的平庸表现，改版的F15就能干掉俄罗斯空军甚至都也许不是一个不可能的糟糕主意。只是我个人每天的一些想法……
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
I think somewhat far into the future, if 5th generation fighters are forced to fight one another, dogfighting will make a return, as they would be unable to get a BVR missile lock on a target they cannot detect until it's close, or a target they cannot acquire a weapons grade lock on.
我认为在遥远的未来，如果第五代战斗机相互战斗，近距离空战将会回归，因为他们都将无法让BVR导弹直接锁定一个他们无法发现的目标，只能等到它们相互靠近，或者有一个他们可以直接用武器锁定的目标。
You're forgetting another advantage of US' air force/stealth program: decades of actual experience fighting wars.
你忘记了美国空军和隐形计划的另一个优势：几十年的实战经验。
J20 like horror dragons and all knows that dragons
J20就像一头看起来恐怖的龙，但所有人都知道龙……哈哈表情
the products i've seen out of China haven't been the most quality oriented. functional but no longevity. perhaps their military suppliers work to a different standard.
我所见过的中国产品都不是最注重质量的产品。功能强大但寿命短。也许他们的军事供应商的工作标准会不同吧。
Most 4.5 gen aircrafts have an RCS below 1m². So the J20 and Su57 are actually only 4.5 generation. I think until China and Russia can build true 5th gen aircrafts, even Europe will start fielding the first 6th gen ones.
大多数4.5代飞机的RCS低于1米²。所以歼20和苏57实际上只是4.5代。我认为在中国和俄罗斯能造出真正的五代机之前，甚至欧洲也会开始部署第一批六代机。
Kind of alarming that the hacking happens and theres no huge concern about the damage resulting from that, include the fact some americans go to china to train these possible enemies because they get offered something..
黑客入侵的发生有点令人担忧，但大家不用对由此造成的损害有太大的担忧，包括一些美国人去中国训练这些可能的敌人，也不用担忧，因为他们也得到了一些东西……
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
I will definitely disagree with you regarding thrust vectoring. It's a competitive edge that we just don't have. It will certainly come back to haunt us in the near future. Shoulda, woulda, coulda...
我个人不同意你关于矢量推力的观点。这是我们（美国）还不具备完全优势的竞争。在不久的将来，它肯定会回来困扰我们。然后就是我们本应该，本可以，本可能……
The J20 I believe was built off the St()len IP of the YF23
我相信J20是偷YF23的……
I honestly feel that a spitfire can take a J-10 whatever the thing is called.
老实说，我觉得喷火战斗机都能干掉他们，管它叫什么歼-10还是什么。
i dont even think stealth matters anymore, these new AMRAAMs and the distance to which they can fire is insane.
我现在甚至开始认为隐形能力已经不重要了，这些新的中程导弹和它们的发射距离太疯狂了。
J20 is as good at stealth as J35 is good at dogfighting
J20的隐身能力和J35的斗狗能力一样好（嘲讽）
What purpose does ultra long range air to air BVR missile have against stealth fighters. You can't even lock on to them that far away, what's the point?
超远程空空BVR导弹对隐形战机有什么作用？你在那么远的地方都不能锁定他们，有什么意义？
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Guess that means : forget about going after the J20's kill the AWACS instead.
我猜这意味着：不要再去追击歼20了，而是去消灭他们的预警机。
You can know how something is made, but you still have to operate it well. US pilots have the most experience.
你可以制造一件东西，但你仍然必须去熟练的操作它。而美国飞行员的经验最为丰富。