欧洲网友讨论欧盟的作用

Brian Coughlan
What are your views on EU?
A total of 28 countries working to make Europe the most prosperous, peaceful place on Earth.
The EU is the greatest peace project ever conceived. It has transformed Europe from this …
 
你如何看待欧盟？
欧盟由28个国家组成，它们共同努力使欧洲成为世界上最繁荣、最和平的地区之一。
欧盟是有史以来最伟大的和平计划，它彻底改变了欧洲的面貌。
 
It has maintained peace between implacable enemies for almost 80 years (France, The United Kingdom and Germany); convinced military dictatorships to become democracies without firing a shot (Portugal, Spain, Greece); integrated the impoverished losers of the cold war into the west (Poland, Hungary, The German Democratic Republic); and made all 510 million of us richer than any previous European generation has ever dreamed of.
 
它在势不两立的敌人（法国、英国和德国）之间维持了近80年的和平；它促使军事独裁政权在没有战争的情况下转变为民主国家（如葡萄牙、西班牙和希腊）；它将冷战中的贫困国家融入西方世界（如波兰、匈牙利和德意志民主共和国）；它使得5.1亿欧洲人比以往任何时候都要富裕。
 
It has achieved this by integrating the economies of the member states more tightly than any confederacy in history, making war and conflict a lose-lose proposition. All the typical sources of nation state conflict are mitigated by an over-arching and transparent set of rules, agreements and treaties that ensure an even economic playing field for all participants, economic support for the weakest members from the strongest and the option to live, work and settle in each others countries.
 
所有典型的国家间冲突源头都通过一套全面且透明的规则、协议和条约得到了缓解，这些规则确保了所有参与者在经济上有一个公平的竞争环境，强国能够为弱国提供经济援助，并且各国人民有机会在彼此的国家生活、工作和定居。
 
It is no accident that EU member states have some of the lowest military budgets on the planet; we have transformed the most dangerous neighbourhood on Earth into the safest.
Nothing is perfect. The EU, while greater than the sum of its parts, has many flaws as do its constituent member states. It is inevitably an ongoing, never finished work in progress. Nonetheless, the following statement remains absolutely accurate:
Those of us that live in the EU live in the most peaceful, prosperous and enlightened supranational democracy that has ever existed anywhere or at anytime in the full sweep of human history.
That’s what I think of the EU.
 
欧盟成员国的军事预算之低并非偶然，我们已经将地球上最危险的地区转变为最安全的地区之一。
万事皆非完美。欧盟虽然整体实力超过了其成员国的总和，但同样存在许多不足，就像其成员国一样。它是一个永无止境、始终在进行中的工程。尽管如此，以下观点仍然完全正确：我们这些生活在欧盟中的人，生活在人类历史上最和平、最繁荣、最开明的超国家民主体系中。
这就是我对欧盟的看法。
 
Randall Reade
Some wag once said that ever since the fall of the Roman Empire, Europe has been trying to put it back together. Holy Roman Empire, the wars of the 17th and 19th century, Napoleon, Hitler. The EU has come closest of all.
 
有人曾幽默地说，自从罗马帝国衰落以来，欧洲一直在试图将其重新拼凑。从神圣罗马帝国到17世纪和19世纪的战争，再到拿破仑、希特勒，欧盟是最接近成功的尝试。
 
Brian Coughlan
… but with consent!!! Thats the EU's magic sauce.
 
但是这一切都是基于共识！这就是欧盟的魔力所在。
 
Gavin Ryan
Indeed! The EU is Pax Romana 2.0.
 
确实！欧盟就像是罗马和平的2.0版本。
 
Tom Insurgo
As a huge EU supporter, I agree with practically everything here, but I find your argument about defense spending somewhat disingenuous.
The NATO member spending disproportionately more on defense than anybody else is the US. Combine this with the fact that the US GDP is the largest in the world, and it becomes clear that the US plays an outsized role in providing the security that we Europeans rely on.
 
作为一个坚定的欧盟支持者，我几乎同意这里的所有观点，但我觉得你们关于国防开支的论点有些不坦率。
作为北约成员国的美国在国防上的开支远超其他国家。考虑到美国GDP全球最高，很明显美国在提供我们欧洲依赖的安全保障方面扮演了重要角色。
 
I reluctantly agree with the isolationist Americans that claim our security is largely thanks to American money. If not for the US, we would have to spend a lot more money on our own defense, and given the unreliability of American power in the coming decades, I think it’s finally time to push for our martial independence - preferably through a united EU military.
 
我不太情愿地同意那些主张孤立主义的美国人的观点，即我们的安全很大程度上得益于美国的资金支持。如果没有美国，我们欧洲将不得不在国防上投入更多资金。鉴于未来几十年美国力量的不确定性，我认为现在是时候推动我们的军事自主——最好是通过一个团结的欧盟军队来实现。
 
Matthew Ebden
It’s worth noting that we in America are so addicted to the idea of spending money on our military, not for the state of Colorado to attack the state of Tennessee, not to attack or defend against Canada or Mexico, but just for the sake of patriotism, that the money ends up going… wherever it goes.
If the EU didn’t take our money, what would we do with it? We certainly wouldn’t save it. We are compulsive military spenders. It’s rather generous of the EU countries to allow our soldiers to be stationed in their countries.
 
值得注意的是，我们美国人如此沉迷于军事开支，不是为了科罗拉多州攻击田纳西州，也不是为了攻击或防御加拿大或墨西哥，而仅仅是出于爱国心，这些资金最终流向了……它们流向的地方。
如果欧盟不接受我们的钱，我们会用它做什么呢？我们肯定不会节省。我们是军事开支的强迫性消费者。欧盟国家允许我们的士兵驻扎在他们的国家，这实际上是相当慷慨的。
 
Gene Hunter
There’s no doubt that the USA is spending more on defence than China, the Saudis, Russia, and all of Europe combined. However, just a minor point of order, I don’t think the EU actually takes any money from the US for expenditure on NATO.
 
毫无疑问，美国在国防上的开支超过了中国、沙特、俄罗斯以及整个欧洲的总和。不过，我想指出一个小问题，我不认为欧盟实际上从美国那里拿走了任何用于北约开支的资金。
 
Stein van Hes
A lot of nato countries followed the us in its stupid wars in the middle east. We didnt have to but we did because we value the us as an ally.
 
许多北约国家跟随美国参与了其在中东的愚蠢战争。我们本不必这么做，但我们还是做了，因为我们珍视与美国作为盟友的关系。
 
Franjo Zezelj
do you have any idea who would attak eu ?
 
你有没有想过谁会攻击欧盟？
 
Christopher Westburry
Let us assume the EU was independent from the NATO in the defense mission. A look from Poland towards Ukraine shows enough to answer your question. Also, not only an aggression from Russia could be possible if the EU is weak, but also the fights between Greece and Turkey are quite recurring events. For me, even just those incidents are more than a reason enough for there to be a European Army that can stand independently from the NATO.
 
假设欧盟在防御任务上独立于北约。从波兰向乌克兰方向看去，就足以回答你的问题。此外，如果欧盟不够强大，可能面临的不仅是俄罗斯的侵略，希腊和土耳其之间的冲突也是屡见不鲜。对我而言，这些事件本身就足以成为建立一个能够独立于北约的欧洲军队的充分理由。
 
Rob H.
Firstly, don’t confuse NATO with the EU - they are completely different organisations. If an isolationist USA withdraws from Europe then NATO may become pointless, but that doesn’t leave Europe defenceless.
In terms of external threats to the EU there is really only Russia and the Middle East. Russia is not nearly are strong as is often portrayed (neither was the USSR as we now know). The UK and France combined out-spend and out-gun Russia militarily and no country in the Middle East can threaten the EU militarily.
 
首先，不要将北约和欧盟混为一谈——它们是完全不同的组织。如果美国这个孤立主义者从欧洲撤军，那么北约可能变得无足轻重，但这并不意味着欧洲就毫无防御能力。
就欧盟面临的外部威胁而言，实际上只有俄罗斯和中东。俄罗斯并没有外界通常所描述的那么强大（正如我们现在所知，苏联也是如此）。英国和法国的军事开支和实力都超过了俄罗斯，而且中东没有任何国家能在军事上威胁到欧盟。
 
Tom Insurgo
The OP was bringing NATO and the EU together in their analysis so I was addressing that. In any case, the overlap between the two is substantial enough; the only militarily significant NATO members that are not also EU members are Turkey, Canada, and the US itself
 
楼主将北约和欧盟混为一谈，所以我在回应这一点。无论如何，两者之间的重叠已经足够大；唯一在军事上重要的北约成员国而非欧盟成员国的是土耳其、加拿大和美国本身。
 
Tom Smith
Yet somehow, all the american wars(also major European powers) weren't defensive in the past 50 yrs, all It brought was devastation and destruction to some regions. Look at regions in the middle east, supporting terrorism, funding Islamists extremist groups, and from the other hand bombing them in the name of the saviors. When it comes to politics its rather simplistic to think US is funding its military for the sake of maintaining the global peace. Its definitely to expand its monopoly, the militarization doesn't have a direct outcome but with indirect intimidation is holding its foot as the supreme power, controlling global economic system, having the international currency ,etc.
 
然而，不知何故，所有美国（以及主要欧洲大国）在过去50年里发动的战争都不是防御性的，它们只给某些地区带来了破坏和毁灭。看看中东地区，一方面支持恐怖主义，资助伊斯兰极端组织，另一方面又以救世主的名义轰炸他们。当涉及到政治时，认为美国资助其军队是为了维护全球和平的想法过于简单。这绝对是为了扩大其垄断，军事化没有直接结果，但通过间接恐吓保持其作为至高无上的力量，控制全球经济体系，拥有国际货币等。
 
Many countries refused the expansion of US capitalism, yet those are the countries that are demonized as true enemies, cuba, north Vietnam, etc.
 
许多国家拒绝了美国资本主义的扩张，然而这些国家却被妖魔化为真正的敌人，如古巴、北越等。
 
Jean-Claude
What is really funny that unified Vietnam is now very cordial with the USA . Of course they have a rather big neighbor which tried to invade and now wants to take away their fishing grounds . The Americans aren’t so bad after all, I presume ;)
 
真正有趣的是，统一后的越南现在与美国非常友好。当然，他们有一个相当强大的邻居，这个邻居曾试图入侵，现在又想夺走他们的渔场。我猜美国人也并不是那么糟糕。
 
Duncan Cairncross
That would be true if there was a similarly strong opponent - but there isn’t - the EU outspends any possible opponent by quite a lot - why spend MORE?
 
如果有一个同样强大的对手，那倒是真的——但并没有——欧盟的开支远远超过任何可能的对手——为什么要花更多？
 
Tom Insurgo
Total spending is not equivalent to military capability. Russian spending is concentrated on one force: the Russian military. EU military spending is distributed across many countries, each with their own military of varying efficacy and doctrine. If Russia were to hypothetically spend 3 billion USD on its military, that would be much more efficient for it than 5 countries spending the same amount of money. The flat truth is that most countries in Europe are not ready for an armed confrontation on their own - though it is also unreasonable to expect countries like Malta or Portugal to be capable of holding off Russia. This is why I am in favour of an integrated EU military, much like has already been lightly trialed with the Franco-German Eurocorps, but on a larger scale. Unfortunately that suggestion is politically suicidal in today’s nationalist political climate.
 
总开支并不等同于军事能力。俄罗斯的开支集中在一个力量上：俄罗斯军队。欧盟的军事开支分散在许多国家，每个国家都有自己的军队，效能和教义各不相同。如果俄罗斯假设在军事上花费30亿美元，那对它来说比五个国家花费同样金额的钱要有效得多。坦率地说，大多数欧洲国家都没有准备好单独进行武装对抗——尽管也不合理期待像马耳他或葡萄牙这样的国家能够抵御俄罗斯。这就是为什么我支持一个一体化的欧盟军队，就像已经轻微尝试过的法德欧军团那样，但规模要更大。不幸的是，在当今的民族主义政治氛围中，这个建议在政治上是自杀性的。
 
Aidan Murphy
Having lived in Ireland before we joined the EU I can honestly say that joining the EU was one of the best thing Ireland ever did
 
在爱尔兰加入欧盟之前，我就住在那，我可以诚实地说，加入欧盟是爱尔兰做过的最好的事情之一。
 
Liam P. O'Riordan
Indeed. Whatever problems we now have, they would be infinitely worse if we had not joined the then, EEC in 1973. We have always been committed Europeans and long may we remain so.
 
确实。无论我们现在有什么问题，如果我们当时没有加入欧洲经济共同体，情况会无限糟糕。我们一直是坚定的欧洲人，希望我们能一直保持这样。
 
Barry Lenihan
Your are correct. The EEC was constituted with the signing of the Treaty of Rome in 1956. It's over-riding purpose was to prevent the destruction of Europe as had happened in two World Wars. To date it has largely been successful in that obxtive.
 
你是对的。欧洲经济共同体是在1956年签署《罗马条约》时成立的。它的主要目的是防止像两次世界大战那样破坏欧洲的事件。迄今为止，它在这方面已经相当成功。
 
Dave Moore
While I mostly agree with what you have posted, I’d like to point out that the EU only began November 1st, 1993. On one hand, that speaks volumes as to how much can be accomplished in a such a short time. On the other hand, it does refute your claim that the EU is responsible for 80 years of peace. It has not existed that long.
 
虽然我同意你的大部分观点，但我想指出，欧盟实际上是在1993年11月1日成立的。一方面，这表明在如此短的时间内可以完成很多事情。另一方面，这确实反驳了你的说法，即欧盟负责了80年的和平——它存在的时间并没有那么长。
 
Gene Hunter
Thank you Dave for prompting me to look it up.
Brian Coughlan does not claim 80 years of peace, he states “It has maintained peace between implacable enemies for almost 80 years.”
 
感谢Dave提醒我查找资料。
Brian Coughlan并没有声称维持了80年的和平，他实际上说的是“它在近80年里维持了宿敌之间的和平。”
 
First, you are correct that the EU was founded in 1993 but that ignores how it came to exist in the first place.
The predecessor of the EU was the EEC. The EEC existed from 1958 till 1993
 
首先，你说得对，欧盟是在1993年成立的，但这忽略了它成立的初衷。
欧盟的前身是欧洲经济共同体（EEC）。EEC从1958年一直存在到1993年。
 
Before the EEC there was the Benelux. The agreement was signed in London in 1944
So, it actually means that we had more than 70 years of peace
 
在EEC之前还有比荷卢经济联盟。该协议是在1944年于伦敦签署的。
所以，实际上我们已经有超过70年的和平历史。
 
Dave Moore
Ahh, that makes more sense. And, the rest of the background helps as well. Thank you.
 
嗯，这样解释更合理。而且，其他的背景信息也很有帮助。谢谢。
 
Quentin Mariéthoz
As a Europhile and *cough* Swiss citizen I also believe the EU is one of the most beautiful human achievement of a dream.
Gene Hunter
 
作为一个热爱欧洲的人，同时也是瑞士公民，我同样认为欧盟是人类实现梦想的最美妙成就之一。
 
Philip Blanc
Your assumptions are false and weak.
 
你的假设是错误的，而且站不住脚。
 
The EU dates back to 1992. Treaties which existed before can’t be counted as “kind-of-the-EU” just because they were integrated within a larger system. West Europe before 1992 was at peace and economically stable, with a fair amount of growth. Then came the Euro, Schengen space, the 28 members… all this came after Europe was already at peace and prosperous. The pro-EU crowd is just as clueless as the Brexiteer crowd, they tell you that without the EU there would be plague and strife and doom, but seriously ?? You know all too well it’s false. Without the EU we would have healthy trans-national cooperation between countries, only without that flawed supra-national institution which lies in Brussels (or is it Strasbourg? No one knows. No one cares anyways)
 
欧盟的历史就追溯到1992年。不能仅仅因为之前的条约被整合进一个更大的体系，就把它们算作“类似欧盟”。1992年之前的西欧已经处于和平状态，经济稳定，增长良好。然后欧元、申根区、28个成员国……这些都是在欧洲已经和平繁荣之后才出现的。亲欧派和脱欧派一样无知，他们告诉你没有欧盟就会有瘟疫、冲突和灾难，但说真的，这显然是错误的。没有欧盟，我们会有健康的跨国合作，只是没有那个位于布鲁塞尔（或者是斯特拉斯堡？没人知道。反正也没人在乎）的有缺陷的超国家机构。
 
Jean-Claude
I don’t know your background but I can assure you I lived and worked in both periods.I started working in 1978) What I do know is the benefits of the Euro, the expanding of the markets and the general ease of doing business in the EU. It was quite different before with the long lines on customs etc.. Also I applaud a lot of European regulations which has evened a lot of the playing field and has certainly increased a lot of protection for the consumers. All this did NOT exist before the EU. There is still a lot to be done to make it smoother etc.. but don’t forget that most of these things have to pass the European parlement and/or the commission where all members have to agree.
 
我不知道你的背景，但我可以向你保证，我在这两个时期都生活和工作过。我1978年开始工作。我知道欧元的好处，市场的扩张和在欧盟做生意的便利性。以前的情况很不一样，比如要在海关那里排长队等等。我也为许多欧洲法规鼓掌，这些法规平衡了很多竞争环境，肯定增加了很多对消费者的保护。所有这些在欧盟之前都不存在。还有很多事情需要做来使其更加顺畅等等。但别忘了，这些事情中的大部分都必须通过欧洲议会和/或委员会，所有成员都必须同意。
 
Philip Ravono
If only British voters had received this message from their govt over the last 40+ years (instead of villifying the “evil” EU as a convenient scapegoat for the govt’s own failings), Brexit would not be under discussion.
 
如果英国选民在过去40多年里从他们的政府那里得到了这个信息（而不是诋毁“邪恶”的欧盟，把它当作政府自己失败的替罪羊），英国退欧就不会在讨论之中了。
 
Ignacio de Castro
absolutely right.
I like how you point out that peace is the greatest accomplishment. Yes, we are richer and more democratic but above all we are not at war with each other.
I’m always terribly scared at anti-EU sentiment and how people neglect to remember that the EU is the only thing that has kept irreconcilable enemies allied as one.
 
完全正确。
我喜欢你指出和平是最伟大的成就。是的，我们更富有，更民主，但最重要的是我们不再彼此发动战争。
我总是非常害怕反欧盟的情绪，以及人们忽视记住欧盟是唯一让不可调和的敌人结盟的存在。
 
Stefanos Michael (Στέφανος Μιχαήλ)
In all honesty, these are more so consequences of the times, than of the EU.
It is rather perplexing to suggest the EU has made Italy, Spain, Greece etc richer.
Greece, in particular, has suffered immensely, and had to shoulder a huge migrant crisis because of EU rules.
 
说实话，这些更多是时代的产物，而不是欧盟的功劳。
认为欧盟使意大利、西班牙、希腊等国家更富有是相当令人困惑的。
特别是希腊，它遭受了巨大的损失，由于欧盟的规定，它不得不承担巨大的移民危机。