历数各个地区不同的统计系统。网友十分不理解东亚地区为什么要用“正”字来计数

TackleOdd5076
One thing the internet taught me is that this kind of infographics is never accurate
 
我在互联网上学到的一件事是，这种信息图表永远不准确
 
Firefly17pdr
Well to start, Spain and France are in Europe
 
首先，西班牙和法国都在欧洲
 
Whirlidoo
Which would be excusable as a way to just be referring to "the rest of europe aside from these exceptions" But then you see that brazil and south america are mentioned separately in the same column..
 
如果只是指“除这些例外情况之外的欧洲其他地区”，这还算情有可原，但你可以看到巴西在存在“南美”这一类别的情况下在同一栏中被单独提起...
 
NonPlusUltraCadiz
And I've lived in Spain for 40 years and I'd never seen that, we use n. 1
 
我在西班牙生活了 40 年，但我从未见有人使用过第二种，我们使用第一种
 
Purple_Korok
I'm french and we use both
 
我是法国人，我们两者都用
 
_Snoooze
French too and I've never seen the square one
 
我也是法国人，但我从来没见过方形那个
 
Diligent-Wolverine-3
I see more often the square one than the first one personnally
 
我个人更经常看到方形的而不是第一个
 
JoelMDM
Can’t speak to many of the other countries, but for Japan it’s accurate.
正, pronounced in this case as “sēi”, is the commonly used tally mark in Japan, and consists of 5 strokes. It’s very commonly used, from writing the amount of items for a food order, to game scores, class attendance, etc.
The core meaning of the 正 kanji is true or correct in the logical sense of the word, which is obviously something you want when keeping a tally.
Given that all of those Asian languages have a logographic writing system of common origin (that being hanzi), that way of tallying is likely at least recognized in all countries even if it may not be standard (which I don’t think it is in Korea, China, and HK).
 
其他国家的情况我不太清楚，但日本的情况是准确的。
正，在这里读作“sē”，是日本常用的记数符号，由 5 笔组成。它的使用非常普遍，从记录点菜的数量，到游戏得分、课堂出勤率等。
汉字“正”的核心意思是逻辑意义上的真实或正确，这显然是记账时所需要的。
鉴于所有这些亚洲语言都有一个共同起源的表意文字书写系统（即汉字），这种记账方式即使可能不是标准的（我认为在韩国、中国和香港（特区）都不是），但至少在所有国家都可能得到认可。
 
IncidentHead8129
I can confirm this is true for China, 正is pronounced zhèng, meaning “upright/straight/proper”. I think it’s used because 1. It has five strokes and 2. The order for writing this character is horizontal-vertical-repeat for five times.
 
我可以确认在中国也是，正的发音是 zhèng，意思是“正直/正确/适当”。我认为它之所以被使用是因为：1. 它有五笔，2. 这个字的书写顺序是横-竖-连写五次。
 
jinx0090
When I was in grade 3, my teacher had my class use the third option. It was to tally when we got in trouble. If a student drew all five strokes it meant missing recess for the day. Seeing that character is fear inducing haha
 
我上三年级时，老师让我们班使用第三个选项。这是在我们惹了麻烦时用来统计的。如果一个学生画满了五笔，就意味着这天没有课间休息。于是看到这个字就害怕，哈哈
 
TheBraveGallade
Korean and we technically use both the english and Chinese systems. Older generation skews the Chinese system, younger the western one, but we understand both
 
我是韩国人，从技术上讲，我们同时使用英语和汉语系统。老一代偏向中文系统，年轻一代偏向西方系统，但我们两者都能理解。
 
granbleurises
This is most current and correct imo.
Western influence comes from most folks going to study abroad and/or gyopos.
 
在我看来，这条评论的信息是最新且正确的。
西方的影响来自大多数出国留学的人和/或侨民。
 
axebodyspray24
I thought it was basically writing the number characters in order on top of each other. Like, one horizontal line for one, a second for two, a third for 3, a vertical line for 4 (doesnt really look like it), and another for 5, so it forms 五. Is this maybe a regional thing?
 
我认为它基本上是按顺序将数字字符写在彼此之上。比如，一条横线代表1，第二条横线代2，第三条代表3，一条竖线代表4（看起来不太像），另一条竖线代表5，所以它就形成了汉字“五”。这会是一个种地区性的事情吗？
 
kungfurobopanda
Well, that would be confusing because the character for 5 actually has 4 strokes. The character for 4 has 5 strokes…
 
嗯，这会令人困惑，因为“五”这个字实际上有 4 画。 “四”这个字有5画……
 
axebodyspray24
idk i was taught this in a basic Chinese class. the instructor himself was Chinese so i figured his info would be accurate?
 
我不知道，这是在基础中文课上教的。教员本人就是中国人，所以我想他的信息应该是准确的？
 
No-Concern-8832
I think you got punked by your instructor. It's actually a Chinese joke.
A rich man sent his good for nothing son to learn writing. The first day the teacher taught him how to write one which is one horizontal stroke. The second day, the boy was taught how to write two which has two horizontal strokes. The third day followed with three which has three horizontal strokes. At that point, the boy told his father he has learned all there is to learn.
The next day the father asked his son to help write the address on a letter. The boy agreed and went to the study to write. Hours later, the father dropped in to check the son's progress, only to see the boy drawing stroke after stroke. When he saw his father, he yelled "why your friend must be named 万 (wan = 10,000)?"
 
我想你被你的老师耍了。这其实是个中国笑话
一个有钱人送他一无是处的儿子去学写字。第一天，老师教他写“一”，是一横。第二天，老师教他写两横的“二”。第三天，又教他写三横。这时，男孩告诉父亲，他已经学会了所有要学的东西。
第二天，父亲让儿子帮忙写一封信上的地址。男孩同意了，然后去书房写字。几个小时后，父亲顺便来看看儿子的进度，只见男孩一笔又一笔地画着。看到父亲，他大喊：“为什么你的朋友一定要叫万（万=10000）？”
 
Inevitable_Panic_133
I figured it would be easier and less prone to mistakes/misreads when writing with a brush and ink rather than a quil
 
我想，用毛笔和墨水书写比用鹅毛笔书写更容易，也更不容易出错/误读。
 
PrestigiousAd6281
Just coming to confirm that we too do this here in Korea. Although some people are comfortable with the western tally system due to heavy western influence
 
只是来确认一下，我们韩国也是这样做的。虽然由于受到西方的严重影响，有些人已经很适应西方的计票系统
 
stringbeagle
Do you consider the western tally system to be the fence or the box?
 
你们用的西方的计数系统是栅栏还是盒子？
 
Odinetics
Can confirm 正 is also definitely used for tallying in china, HK and Taiwan
 
可可以肯定的是，在中国大陆、香港（特区）和台湾（地区），“正”也被用于计数
 
rarenick
Accurate in Korea, we also use that Chinese character (pronounced 정; jeong) mostly when voting class representatives in school. It also kind of makes sense because that character means "correct" or "just" and those are the fundamental values of an election.
 
准确地说，在韩国，我们在学校投票选举班级代表时也会用到这个汉字（读作 정；jeong）。这也是有道理的，因为这个字的意思是“正确”或“公正”，而这些正是选举的基本价值观。
 
duckface08
I was an ALT in Japan for a year and the first time I asked the teacher to keep tally of the team points for my game, she did it using 正. I was so confused at first lol. However, I wonder if my students were also confused the first time I did it the North American way.
 
我在日本做了一年的助教，第一次让老师为我的游戏统计团队积分时，她用的是“正”。一开始我很困惑。不过，不知道我第一次用北美的方式记分时，我的学生们是否也感到困惑。
 
FacelessOldWoman1234
I saw this for the first time when I watched my Japanese neighbour counting trick-or-treaters this year! It never occurred to me that there would be different tally mark systems but of course there are.
 
我第一次看到这个是今年我看到我的日本邻居用这种方法数“不给糖就捣蛋”的糖果！我从来没想过会有不同的计数标记系统，但当然是有的。
 
tanghan
Is the order also correct?
With 1一, 2二, 3三 and the 正 looking kinda related to 五5 I would have expected the order of strokes beginning like writing 1,2 and 3
 
顺序也正确吗？
1是一、2是二、3是三，而正看起来与五（5）有点关系，我本以为笔画的顺序会像写 1、2、3 一样。
 
SitInCorner_Yo2
The pic is accurate way of writing 正,you can’t really write it with horizontal bar before vertical bar otherwise it would look skew or leaning towards left/right.
 
图中的“正”字的写法是准确的，但不能写成先横后竖，否则会显得歪斜或偏左偏右。
 
awkward_penguin
Generally, Chinese characters are written from the top left to the bottom right. Using that diagonal, the top horizontal is first, then the vertical line in the middle. The second horizontal goes next because it's connected to the vertical. Then, from left to right, the small vertical and the lower horizontal.
 
一般来说，汉字都是从左上方写到右下方。利用这条对角线，最上面的横排在第一位，然后是中间的竖线。接下来是第二横，因为它与竖相连。然后，从左到右依次是小竖和下横。
 
n10w4
Interesting. I like the Brazilian one as it seems the most logical one to me
 
有意思。我喜欢巴西的方案，因为在我看来这是最合乎逻辑的
 
histo_Ry
In Chinese tradition, prisoners use this to tally their days in an attempt to redeem, the correct/right way.
 
在中国传统中，囚犯们用它来计算自己的日子，试图以正确的方式赎罪
 
Friendly-Balance-853
When I taught English in Korea, the students tried to teach me that tallying system. I think the character was pronounced jeong. Even though Koreans try to learn many of the Chinese characters, most are pretty limited. This one, however, was probably universally known amongst elementary students in the Seoul area in the early 2000s.
 
以前我在韩国教英语的时候，学生们试图教会我那个计数系统。我记得这个汉字的发音是“jeong”。尽管韩国人尝试学习许多汉字，但大多数都非常有限。然而，这个字可能在 2000 年代初期首尔地区的小学生中无人不知。
 
lor_azut
As a Brazilian I can confirm this is accurate. We do indeed use the box. I've never seem anyone use the "American" way.
 
作为一名巴西人，我可以证实这一点。我们确实使用“盒子”来计数。我从未见过有人使用 “美国式”方法。
 
Glustin10
Same in Argentina, the box is used mainly for card games.
 
阿根廷也一样，盒子主要用于纸牌游戏。
 
Cavalo_Bebado
I'm from Brazil and I can confirm this is 100% accurate. Never saw anyone in here use anything besides this box model.
 
我来自巴西，我可以确认这是百分之百准确的。在这里，我从未见过有人使用除这种盒式以外的其他方式。
 
Phoenix_Werewolf
I thought I was French, since I was born in France, I have French nationality, a French ID, I vote in French national elections... but I have never seen or done the middle tally.
I guess I am stateless and I live here illegaly. That is something really interesting to learn, thank you!
 
我以为我是法国人，因为我出生在法国，我有法国国籍、法国身份证，我在法国全国大选中投票......但我从未见过或用过中间那种统计方式。
看来我是无国籍人士，非法生活在这里。这真是一件有趣的事情，谢谢你！
 
koh_kun
It'scorrect for Japan. Not sure if the other countries use it too, but I'm sure they do since that's a Chinese character. As a side note, the character means "correct." 正
 
对日本来说是正确的。我不确定其他国家是否也在使用，但我相信他们会使用，因为这是一个汉字。顺便说一句，这个字的意思是“正确”。
 
AlphonzInc
From the comments, I guess this is the first time the internet has been correct!
 
从评论来看，我猜这是互联网第一次正确！
 
Logical-Witness-3361
The Chinese tally marks I know are 五 because it literally mean 5. I would believe it is the same in at least Japan (and Hong Kong)
 
我知道的中国记号是“五”，因为它的字面意思是5。我相信至少在日本（和香港（特区））是一样的
 
moeru_gumi
Japan definitely uses the third one. The kanji it creates is 正, meaning “correct”.
 
日本肯定用的是第三种。它产生的汉字是正，意思是“正确”。
 
Becausebot04
Now THAT'S interesting as fuck
 
这太有趣了
 
Ancient_Ad_916
Same in Chinese, we use 正 (“zheng”) if we want to “correct” something.
 
中文也一样，如果要“纠正”什么，我们就用正（“正”）。
 
Snoozybirb
I did an exchange in Japan and new a girl that would do it with 五 which I thought was really cool
 
我在日本做过交换生，有个女孩会用“五”这个字来计数，我觉得很酷
 
addisonfung
Fun fact: this is technically incorrect because the character 五 has only 4 strokes (the 乛 part is technically 1 stroke)
 
有趣的事实：这在技术上是不正确的，因为“五”字只有 4 笔（“乛”在技术上是 1 笔）
 
Dani-Br-Eur
I am brazilian, and use the second. My girlfriend is dutch uses the first and never saw the one i use. For me the second, i use, was universal.
 
我是巴西人，用第二种。我的女朋友是荷兰人，使用第一种，并且从未见过我用的那种。对我来说，我使用的第二种是通用的。
 
Blackomodo19
I’m french and I never seen anyone use the second one, we use the first one.
edit : no need to reply that you’re french too and that you’ve seen people use the second one. I get it, been told like 30 times now. It’s probably a regional thing.
 
我是法国人，从来没见过有人用第二种，我们用第一种。
编辑：好了，没必要回复说你也是法国人，你见过有人用第二种。我明白了，我已经听说了 30 遍了。这可能是一个地区的问题。
 
stumblewiggins
I'm used to the American version, but I actually like the Brazilian version better. Easier to tell at a glance how many you've tallied, even with sloppy handwriting
 
我已经习惯了美国版本，但实际上我更喜欢巴西版本。即使笔迹潦草，也能一目了然地知道自己算了多少
 
idontremembermylogi_
The first one i think is pretty intuitive, the only time you'd count anything other than 5 is for the last block of tallies, there shouldn't be too much to miss.
 
我认为第一个非常直观，只有在最后一组统计时才会计算 5 以外的数字，不会有太多遗漏。
 
stumblewiggins
Both 1) and 2) are intuitive, but if you have sloppy handwriting or something, it can be hard to distinguish between II and III or III and IIII.
Most of the time it's fine, but 2) is slightly easier to tell at a glance.
 
1）和 2）都很直观，但如果你字迹潦草或其他原因，就很难区分 II 和 III 或 III 和 IIII。
大多数情况下是没问题的，但 2）更容易区分。
 
fredlllll
i mean i can understand the second one, but the third one is proper fucked, who came up with that one dangling stroke??
 
我的意思是，我可以理解第二个，但第三个就懵逼了，是谁想出那个悬空的笔画的？
 
Accomplished-Ad-5655
Took this answer from this forum post
正 is a common character
正 has five stokes
All five stokes are straight and no overlap, so it is easier to count each stoke.
The character neatly form a square shape, make counting multiple copies easier
The stoke order and stoke type are simple . It just repeat two different straight stokes:
Left to right horizontal straight line
Top to bottom vertical straight line
One can write 正 faster than most other five stokes characters
There are probably other reasons but these are the most probable. Granted this looks "fucked" from a westerners pov but in the Chinese language, it just makes sense.
And to answer your question about the one dangling stroke: in Chinese there is always an order to write the strokes for the characters. It's always top to bottom, left to right, hence the dangling stroke before the final bottom one.
 
从这个论坛帖子中得到的答案
正是一个常用字
正有五画
五画都是直的，没有重叠，数起来比较容易。
字形整齐，呈正方形，便于计算多份。
笔画顺序和笔画类型都很简单。它只是重复两个不同的横竖：
从左到右的水平直线
从上到下的垂直直线
与其他大多数五画的字相比，正的书写速度更快。
可能还有其他原因，但这些是最有可能的。诚然，从西方人的角度看，这看起来很“操蛋”，但在中文里，这就是合理的。
回答你关于悬空笔画的问题：汉字的笔画书写总是有顺序的。总是从上到下，从左到右，因此在最后的下一笔之前会有一个悬空的笔画。
 
SchighSchagh
Yeah, I'm gonna just go ahead and call bullshit on pretty much all of that.
正 is a common character
I'm happy to assume this is true, but it's irrelevant. Something being a common character has nothing to do with it being a good tally mark system.
All five stokes are straight and no overlap, so it is easier to count each stoke.
Three problems here: 1. "no overlap" means you have to have quite a bit of precision when writing it, and if you do accidentally have some overlap, or some of the strokes don't end up connecting, it ends up being considerably less readable later. 2. "easier to count" is definitely not true. Our brains are hard-wired to automotically recognize small quantities <=4 without actually counting them. The tallies |, ||, |||, and |||| are so simple we don't even need to count them. Our brains just know what those quantities are. Adding a slash to it to get 5 also ends up not being a matter of counting, anyone who uses that system quickly recognizes it as 5 without counting a damn thing. 3. "strokes are straight" again, irrelevant. All strokes are straight in all tally mark systems. Talking about this as a rebuttal to "the third one is proper fucked" is just nonsense because nobody ever took issue with anything being straight or not straight.
The character neatly form a square shape, make counting multiple copies easier
Dafuq? The second tally system is literally a square. And this tally system never even remotely resembles a square. Besides, I can count �������������� just fine all day long. This claim is overall just complete nonsense.
The stoke order and stoke type are simple . It just repeat two different straight stokes
This is a joke, right? How on earth do you consider a system where each stroke has an arbitrary length and is placed in an arbitrary position to be simpler than just... same-length strokes one after another as in the case of |||| and □ ? Like ok yeah the last stroke is at an angle, and technically longer in the case of the square because a square's diagonal is longer than its side... but the lengths overall are way more consistent for the other tally systems.
One can write 正 faster than most other five stokes characters
Bullshit. The precision needed to line up startpoint and/or endpoint of various strokes slows you down. Eg, the second stroke has to start at the midpoint of the first. The endpoint of the fourth stroke has to end vertically aligned with the endpoint of the second. The 5th stroke has to touch the endpoints of strokes 2 and 4. The precision required for all that slows you down while writing it. Meanwhile, in the case of |||| each stroke's height/length can vary quite a bit vs its neighbors without a problem; also the spacing between strokes is pretty irrelevant, you can just do whatever is comfortable for you. The final diagonal slash just has to touch the other 4 strokes somewhere. Some people use a forward slash instead of a back slash, and it's fine. There's absolutely no way that on average, for most people, 正 is faster to write than ��. ⧅ is also faster because if you're writing it all at once, it's really just one stroke; you don't have to lift the pen.
正 has five stokes
ok, I'll give you that one. I'll see myself out now
 
啊，我想说，这些都是胡说八道。
“正是一个常用字”
我很乐意假设这是真的，但这并不重要。一个东西是否是常用字与它是否是一个好的统计标记系统没有半毛钱关系。
“五画都是直的，没有重叠，数起来比较容易”
这里有三个问题： 1. “没有重叠”意味着你在书写时必须相当精确，如果你不小心有一些重叠，或者一些笔画最终没有连接起来，那么可读性就会大大降低。2.“更容易计算”绝对不是事实。我们的大脑天生就会自动识别小于 4 的小数量，而无需真正计算它们。像|, ||, |||, 和 |||| ，我们的大脑一眼就能知道数量是多少。然后在它后面加一条斜线得到 5 也不需要数数，任何使用该系统的人都能很快认出它是 5，而不需要数什么鬼东西。3. “笔画是直的”同样与此无关。在所有计数系统中，所有笔画都是直的。用这个来为“第三个系统是正常的”辩护简直是无稽之谈，因为从来没有人对任何东西是直的还是不直的提出过异议。
 
“字形整齐，呈正方形，便于计算多份”
什么东西？第二个计数系统才是一个正方形。而这个统计系统根本不像正方形。此外，我可以数一整天第二个系统的正方形而不出错。总的来说，这种说法完全是无稽之谈。
“笔画顺序和笔画类型都很简单。它只是重复两个不同的横竖”
这是在开玩笑吧？你怎么会认为一个每个笔画都有任意长度、放在任意位置的系统比 |||| 和正方形中的......以相同长度的笔画一笔接一笔更简单呢？好吧，是的，最后一笔是有角度的，从技术上讲，正方形的笔画更长，因为正方形的对角线比它的边长......但对于其他计数系统来说，笔画的长度总体上更一致。
“写正字比写其他大多数五笔的字更快”
扯淡。各个笔画的起点和/或终点需要精确对齐，这会拖慢你的速度。例如，第二笔必须从第一笔的中点开始。第四笔的终点必须与第二笔的终点垂直对齐。第五笔必须触及第二笔和第四笔的端点。所有这些所需的精确度都会拖慢书写速度。同时，在第一种系统的情况下，每个笔画的高度/长度与相邻笔画的高度/长度可以有相当大的差异，而不会出现问题；另外，笔画之间的间距也无关紧要，你可以根据自己的喜好来确定。最后一笔斜线必须与其他四笔相交。有些人用前斜线代替后斜线，这也没有问题。平均而言，对大多数人来说，写“正”字绝对不会比第一种写得快。第二种也更快，因为如果一次写完，其实只需一笔，不用提笔。
“正有五笔”
好吧，随你吧。我先走了
 
ringowu1234
You can call bullshit all you want but all the above points are correct.
We use 正 as tally in Taiwan all the time, from counting votes to ordering food on a menu.
This is one of the first characters we learn in school. The letter means "correct" "justice" or "straight".It's as simple as distinguishing between U or V, or i and j, no one with a Chinese background will mistake it with something else or write in wrong stroke, overlap or shit like you described. You have absolutely 0 idea what you are talking about. If you write it in one stroke you will fail your elementary Chinese class.
Just because you fail to wrap your head around it, doesn't mean it's BS alright big boy?
 
你可以说这是胡说八道，但上面那个人说的都是正确的。
在台湾（地区），从计算选票到在菜单上点菜，都一直在使用“正”。
这是我们在学校学习的第一个汉字。这个字母的意思是“正确”、“正义”或“正直”。这就像区分 U 或 V，或者 i 和 j 一样简单，没有一个有中文背景的人会把它认错，或者像你描述的那样写错笔画、重叠或乱七八糟。你完全不知道自己在说什么。如果你一笔写完，你的初级中文课肯定不及格。
你无法理解，并不意味着这是胡说八道，好吗，大男孩？
 
Southsidevixen
Going to call bullshit on a system that you don’t understand from another culture..?
 
你非要对一个你不了解的另一种文化体系胡说八道一通吗...？
 
Kouunno
This is such a bizarre hill to die on for someone who isn’t a native Chinese or Japanese speaker. Hell, I learned this character in a Japanese class 18 years ago and have not kept up well on my studies since and I can still write it in the correct stroke order in my sleep.
All of your weird points are completely irrelevant in the fact that at least in Japan you learn this character when you are 6 years old and would never even think to write it in any way other than as shown in the diagram. It seems like you just don’t understand how kanji/hanzi work and that’s fine but why are you arguing about it??
 
对于非汉语或日语母语的人来说，纠结这件事真是太奇怪了。天哪，我 18 年前在日语课上学习过这个字，后来一直没有好好学习，但我仍然可以在睡梦中按照正确的笔顺写出这个字。
你所有的奇怪观点都与事实完全无关，至少在日本，你在 6 岁的时候就学会了这个字，而且根本不会想到用图中所示以外的其他方式来书写它。看来你只是不了解汉字/汉字的工作原理，这没什么，但你为什么要争论这个问题呢？