为什么芬兰人的文化和语言都不是欧洲的，却认为自己是欧洲人？谁允许他们自称是欧洲人？

Martin Cardiaster
Finland was declared an equal part of Sweden in 1250. It was a fully integrated part of Sweden up until 1809, when the Russians conquered it. The Finns had exactly the same rights and obligations as the rest of the Swedish citizens. As an autonomious Grand Duchy, under Russian rule, Finland could keep the Swedish instituions and law, almost intact.
 
芬兰在1250年被宣告为瑞典的平等部分。直到1809年被俄罗斯征服之前，芬兰是瑞典的完全整合部分。芬兰人拥有与瑞典其他公民相同的权利和义务。作为俄罗斯统治下的自治大公国，芬兰几乎保持了瑞典的机构和法律完好无损。
 
In the Middle Ages people went to Central Europe to study at universities, and in 1640 the first one was opend in Turku, Finland.
A very large part of present-day Europeans are descendants of people that have moved to Europe from Siberia. That is where the blond mutation came to Europe from, among other things:
 
在中世纪，人们前往中欧的大学学习，1640年，芬兰的第一个大学在图尔库成立。现今的欧洲人中有很大一部分是从西伯利亚迁移到欧洲的人后代。包括金发突变在内的许多特征就是从那里传入欧洲的。
 
Should you be thinking of the paternal haplogroup N, take a look at the following map:
 
如果你要考虑父系单倍群N，请查看以下地图。
 
 
The group N left Africa together with the other groups that ended up in Europe: G, I, J, K, R and T. Each one of them just took a different route to the final destination.
 
“N单倍群与最终到达欧洲的其他单倍群（G、I、J、K、R和T）一起离开了非洲。它们只是走了不同的路线到达最终目的地。
 
 
That is why the forefathers of the Finns left their genes in Siberia.
The reason why today’s Siberians, with the paternal haplogroup N, look East-Asian is that they carry East-Asian mothernal Mt haplogroups:
 
这就是为什么芬兰人的祖先将他们的基因留在了西伯利亚的原因。今天的西伯利亚人拥有N单倍群，因此看起来像东亚人，因为他们携带了东亚母系线粒体单倍群。
 
 
 
Admittedly you can find some of the Asian MTDNA in the Sami, but not in Finns proper.
 
确实，你可以在萨米人中找到一些亚洲的母系线粒体DNA，但在芬兰人中却没有发现。
 
Faravid
You can sure find some of the Siberian autosomal dna among Finns and Estonians. Not just sami. But you can find it to a lesser degree also in swedes, Norwegians and Balts. As well in high number in some populations in Russia.
you are partly right. The Sami seems to a large part kept to their own women, while Finns took local women along their journey to Finland.
But, the maternal mitochondrial dna is only a tiny fraction of the dna. If to look at the whole autosomal dna, then it looks like this.
 
你确实可以在芬兰人和爱沙尼亚人中找到一些西伯利亚的常染色体DNA，而不仅仅是萨米人。但你也可以在瑞典人、挪威人和波罗的海人中找到这种 DNA，但程度较轻。
此外，在俄罗斯的一些人群中，西伯利亚的常染色体DNA含量较高。你说对了一部分。萨米人似乎在很大程度上只和自己的女人在一起，而芬兰人则在前往芬兰的旅途中带着当地的女人。不过，母系线粒体DNA仅是DNA的微小部分。如果查看整个常染色体DNA，情况就会像这样。

Martin Cardiaster
The carriers of the paternal haplogroup N in both Europe and Asia found local wifes. The point being that the East-Asians kept to the coastal regions upuntil historical times whereas the forefathers of the present-day Europeans were in inner Asia in prehistorical times…
 
无论是在欧洲还是亚洲，携带N单倍群的男性都找到了当地的妻子。关键在于，东亚人直到历史时期都居住在沿海地区，而当今欧洲人的祖先在史前时期居住在亚洲内陆……

The group N men, who stayed in Asia, started to mix with East-Asians only after the the rest already had left for Europe, and the East Asians had started to expand westward. That is why they look like a mix of Europeans and Asians. And that is why you don’t find the Asiatic mitochondrial DNA in Europe.
 
那些留在亚洲的N单倍群男性，只有在其他人已经离开前往欧洲之后，才开始与东亚人混合，而东亚人也开始向西扩张。这就是为什么他们看起来像是欧洲人和亚洲人的混合，也解释了为什么在欧洲找不到东亚的线粒体DNA。
 
The exception being the Sami, who got it from people who later moved to Europe along the Artic coast. The Sami are a very mixed group, with both platin-blonds and slightly Asiatic-lookong members.
 
唯一的例外是萨米人，他们的这种肤色是从后来沿北极海岸移居欧洲的人那里遗传下来的，既有金发碧眼的人，也有略带亚洲人相貌的人。
 
Bjørn Barexstein
Well, with case of maternal DNA among the Sami, it is exactly the opposite. The most prevailant mt DNA is type V and U5b which are very old European markers. They are not at all Asian. The. Type can be found at higher levels with the Basques, Cantabrians and even the Berber. One theory is that this type represents the original Europeans that even survived the ice age.
 
关于萨米人的母系DNA，情况正好相反。最普遍的线粒体DNA类型是V型和U5b型，这些都是非常古老的欧洲标记。它们完全不是亚洲的。这个类型在巴斯克人、坎塔布里亚人甚至柏柏尔人中也能找到。一种理论认为，这些类型代表了甚至在冰河时期幸存下来的原始欧洲人。
 
Sygita Denhoff
Nobody needed to give them permission. They ARE European. Instead of posting inane crap, invest in a fucking world map
 
没有人需要给他们许可。他们就是欧洲人。与其发些无聊的东西，不如投资看看世界地图。
 
Johanna Paulamäki
You could start with geography; Europe ends in the East at Ural mountains, in the north there’s the sea, and we’re west of Urals and south of the sea.
Besides, we don’t need your permission for jack.
 
你可以从地理开始；欧洲东部的边界是乌拉尔山脉，北部是海洋，我们在乌拉尔山脉的西侧和海洋的南侧。此外，我们不需要你的许可做任何事。
 
Manuel Humberto
Hi John. You are obviously trying to stimulate negative feelings in others but underneath that attempt there are a couple of healthy points that can be made. Unlike for example Denmark, because of their location, Norway, Sweden and Finland are on the fringe of Europe. That, coupled with the fact that it is impossible to access them by foot [without having to go all the way around, through Russia], makes them not really but more or less an island, so, whenever people think of Europe they don’t really think about those nations.
 
嗨，约翰。你显然是在试图激发他人的负面情绪，但在这种尝试的背后有一些健康的观点可以提出。与丹麦不同，由于地理位置，挪威、瑞典和芬兰位于欧洲的边缘。这，加上无法直接步行到达它们（必须绕行通过俄罗斯），使得它们实际上更像是一个岛屿。因此，当人们想到欧洲时，他们不太会想到这些国家。
 
That is obvious. They think of France, Germany, Italy, etc. Portugal is for example peripheric as well, geographically and mentally/in people’s minds. Spain is not, by example. About Norway, Sweden and Finland, we can also say they’re culturally not impactful/very relevant in the context of European history. Human activity tends to be where warmth is. Cold regions do not attract humans and human activity. That isn’t something negative. It’s just the way it is. Back to “periphery nations”: Britain and Russia are for example geographically peripheral, Britain less so than Russia [and an island, Britain is] but they are not so mentally because of Culture and of History, the latter integrated in the former. Quite the contrary.
 
这很明显。他们想到的是法国、德国、意大利等。葡萄牙在地理上和心理上也是边缘性的。例如，西班牙就不是。在挪威、瑞典和芬兰的情况下，我们也可以说，它们在欧洲历史的背景下文化影响力不大。人类活动往往发生在温暖的地方。寒冷的地区不吸引人类和人类活动。这并不是负面的，只是事实。回到‘边缘国家’：例如，英国和俄罗斯在地理上是边缘的，英国比俄罗斯稍微少一些（因为英国是一个岛屿），但由于文化和历史，英国在心理上并不边缘，后者融入了前者。相反的情况也适用。
 
 They’re two of Europe’s most relevant/crucial nations. But if you ask Britons, maybe not all but certainly many, because they’re on an island Brits don’t really see themselves as an integral part of Europe, because they’re not Continental. Even though very close to France and to The Netherlands they cannot simply walk towards those places because the sea is an obvious barrier, so, in their minds, “Europe is on the other side, it’s over there while we’re here.” That perception is real. With regards to this perception and self-awareness, the difference for Scandinavia is that Brits are generally very active people and more than accustomed to travelling/going places, whereas the Norwegian, Swedes or Finns are happy to stay where they are, so they don’t really contemplate “what is on the other side of the water.” They’re of course European and in Europe and they don’t feel mentally detached from Europe because the rest of Europe is to them [generalisation] largely unknown. It’s something they see in movies or on the Internet.
 
它们是欧洲最重要的国家之一。但如果你问英国人，可能不是所有人，但肯定很多人，因为他们身处岛屿，英国人并不认为自己是欧洲不可分割的一部分，因为他们不是大陆人。
尽管离法国和荷兰非常近，但他们不能直接步行到这些地方，因为海洋是明显的障碍。因此，在他们的心目中，“欧洲在那边，而我们在这边。”这种看法是真实的。关于这种感知和自我意识，斯堪的纳维亚的区别在于，英国人通常很活跃，并且习惯于旅行，而挪威人、瑞典人或芬兰人则更愿意待在自己所在的地方，因此他们不会太考虑“水那边有什么”。他们当然是欧洲人，也在欧洲，他们不会觉得自己在心理上与欧洲脱节，因为对他们来说，其他欧洲国家大多是未知的。那是他们在电影或互联网中看到的东西。
 
These are just notions. There’s no moral to the story. What you can ask of some of those people and of some of others [Germans, Italians, Portuguese, Romanian, Greek, Bulgarian, etc] is why do they see themselves as European, clearly and obviously European, but are quick to consider/think of Russia as non European, and the rationale behind it. That is a legitimate question, more so if asked of those that unlike Russia are largely irrelevant in the context of Europe, European history and European culture …
 
这些只是观念，没有道德上的结论。你可以问其中一些人，以及其他一些人（如德国人、意大利人、葡萄牙人、罗马尼亚人、希腊人、保加利亚人等），为什么他们认为自己是欧洲人，显然和明显是欧洲人，但却很快把俄罗斯看作非欧洲国家，以及背后的理由。这是一个合法的问题，尤其是对那些在欧洲、欧洲历史和欧洲文化背景中相对无关紧要的国家。
 
Bradley Stelter
They did, based on the geographical location of their country and all the wars they fought in Europe over the centuries.
 
他们确实这样认为，这基于他们国家的地理位置以及他们在欧洲几个世纪以来所参与的所有战争。
 
Domi O'Brien
Finland is in Europe, but the language, like Hungarian and Estonian, is not an Indo-European one, and comes from different roots. They are modernly frequently intermarried with other Northern Europeans, but many of the custural traditions are different.
 
芬兰在欧洲，但像匈牙利语和爱沙尼亚语一样，它的语言不是印欧语系的，而是源于不同的根源。尽管现代芬兰人与其他北欧人有频繁的通婚，但他们的文化传统仍然有所不同。
 
Joseph Newcomer
Well, their country is on the European continent. Your failure to understand geography does not invalidate them being European. Why do you say their language is not European? It has the same roots as Hungarian. Or are you saying that Hungarians are not European? What makes their culture non-European? What is “European culture”? Bullfights? Baguettes? Beer? Wooden shoes? Casinos? Erupting volcanoes? Line dancing?
 
好吧，他们的国家在欧洲大陆。你不懂地理，并不代表他们不是欧洲人。你为什么说他们的语言不是欧洲的？它和匈牙利语有相同的根源。或者你是在说匈牙利人不是欧洲人？是什么让他们的文化非欧洲化？什么是“欧洲文化”？斗牛？法棍？啤酒？木鞋？赌场？火山爆发？排舞？
 
Richard Becker
Well… as Finland is within the traditional borders of the Continent of “Europe”, in “Scandinavia”, to be more precise…and have been a part of European history and culture for literally centuries, they are quite European, and they, and everyone else who has given the matter even a little thought, consider the Finns European, nor did they need permission from anyone else to be so designated, as it is obvious! Even I, as an American citizen (whom Europeans often condescendingly, and inaccurately, call ignorant and stupid!) know that much!
 
嗯……既然芬兰位于“欧洲”的传统边界内，更具体地说是在“斯堪的纳维亚”，并且在欧洲历史和文化中存在了几个世纪，他们非常欧洲，而且他们以及所有对这个问题有一点思考的人都认为芬兰人是欧洲人，他们也不需要别人的许可来被认定为如此，这是显而易见的！即使我作为一个美国公民（尽管欧洲人常常以一种居高临下的方式，且不准确地称我为无知和愚蠢！）也知道这一点。
 
Lars Eidl
You should learn a few things.
Finns are as European as Scandinavians, Indo-Europeans or stone age hunter gatherers. They came from North Ural and/or from Southeast Europe/West Asia.
Norse Scandinavian gods were either Aesir (warriors from Asia) or Vanir (farm gods from Van in Anatolia). when the Norse formed the Battle Axe Bronze Age culture, Finns formed other cultures next to them. And they interacted since then. The Sami people are also Finns from this time and via more recent Arctit migrations, and they are the indegenous people of North Europe, like the Native Americans.
 
你应该了解一些事情。芬兰人和斯堪的纳维亚人、印欧人或石器时代的狩猎采集者一样都是欧洲人。他们来自北乌拉尔地区和/或东南欧/西亚。北欧的斯堪的纳维亚神要么是Aesir（来自亚洲的战士），要么是Vanir（来自安纳托利亚的农业神）。当北欧人形成战斧青铜时代文化时，芬兰人形成了他们自己的其他文化，并且自那时起就进行了互动。萨米人也是那个时代的芬兰人，经过更近期的极地迁徙，他们是北欧的土著民族，就像美洲原住民一样。
 
Heikki Hietala
Ummm who gave you the “permission” to question our identity as European?
I'd really appreciate it if you could tell me.
 
嗯……谁给你“许可”来质疑我们作为欧洲人的身份？如果您能告诉我的话我将非常感激。
 
Johan Molin
And in what way is a stupid guy from Louisiana entitled to ask such an offensive question?
OF COURSE the Finns are European. Finland is an independent country, but still its inhabitants feel much closer to Sweden - for 600 years Sweden and Finland wasd an integral country - than with their ever bullying and threatening neighbours to the east.
Don’t ask about things of which you don’t even have the faintest understanding!
 
一个来自路易斯安那州的愚蠢家伙凭什么有权问这样一个冒犯性的问题？芬兰人当然是欧洲人。芬兰是一个独立的国家，但其居民感觉与瑞典的关系更亲近——因为在过去的600年里，瑞典和芬兰曾是一个整体——而不是与他们总是霸凌和威胁的东邻。不要问你完全不了解的事情！
 
Mats Andersson
Thanks for the A2A.
We Europeans gave them that permission. They’re 100% European in both language and culture. Looking at a map might help you understand the basic concept here.
You’re American, according to your profile, so your say is limited to a vote on who’s allowed to call themselves American. Mind you, you might still lose that vote.
 
感谢提问。我们欧洲人给了他们这个“许可”。他们在语言和文化上都是百分之百的欧洲人。看看地图可能会帮助你理解这个基本概念。你是美国人，根据你的个人资料，你的意见只限于投票决定谁能自称为美国人。请注意，您仍可能失去这一投票权。
 
David Hampson
Europe is a land mass containing many countries, languages and cultures. None of them are the face of Europe , they are only representative of their own country.
On any map Finland is in Europe , even the Western portion of Russia is in Europe, live with it.
And whilst on the subject , Israel and the Arab states are NOT in Europe they are the Near East, India, Pakistan etc are the Middle East and Thailand onwards is the Far East. Trump calling Israel a Far East country just about sums up the idiot.
( As to Eurovision, Israel, Turkey and Australia should not be in the contest .)
 
欧洲是一个包含许多国家、语言和文化的大陆。没有任何国家可以代表整个欧洲，它们只是各自国家的代表。在任何地图上，芬兰都在欧洲，连俄罗斯的西部也在欧洲，接受这一点吧。至于以色列和阿拉伯国家不在欧洲，它们属于近东，印度、巴基斯坦等属于中东，泰国及以东属于远东。特朗普称以色列为远东国家，简直是个愚蠢的错误。（至于欧洲歌唱大赛，以色列、土耳其和澳大利亚不该参加。）
 
Angela Birch
Europe has roughly 50 nations and each has their own culture and language. Finns are definitely in Europe and yup their language and culture is one of the many languages and cultures in Europe. They can call themself European because their nation is located in Europe.
They don’t need permission to call themselves European they are European. I gather you are in one of those countries where a person can’t do anything without explicit permission. Poor you.
 
欧洲大约有50个国家，每个国家都有自己的文化和语言。芬兰人绝对是欧洲的一部分，他们的语言和文化也是欧洲文化的一部分。他们可以称自己为欧洲人，因为他们的国家位于欧洲。
他们不需要许可就可以称自己为欧洲人，他们就是欧洲人。我猜你们所在的国家就是这样的国家，没有明确许可，任何人都不能做任何事情。你们真可怜。

Morten Thorsen
If you thinking of Finnic tribes settling the peninsula then that’s a few thousand years since now. So the Finnic migration to Europe is comparable to indo european migration to well Europe. If descendants of these groups are not european then Swedes or English or Spanish are not European either. Perhaps just the Basques and Sardinians are true European. As an aside Swedish is an official language in Finland and territories of Finland used to be Sweden for many hundred years . Also if the threshold to be European is strong lixs as a people earlier than indo European migration then for sure only native Americans are well Americans and the other ones by your own standard not even European
 
如果你考虑芬兰部落定居在半岛，那么这已经是几千年前的事情了。因此芬兰部落的迁徙到欧洲可以和印欧迁徙相提并论。如果这些群体的后裔不是欧洲人，那瑞典人、英国人或西班牙人也就不是欧洲人了。也许只有巴斯克人和撒丁岛人是真正的欧洲人。顺便说一句，瑞典语是芬兰的官方语言，而芬兰的领土曾经属于瑞典很多年。如果成为欧洲人的标准是比印欧迁徙更早的民族联系，那么显然只有美洲原住民才算真正的美洲人，而其他人按你的标准甚至不算欧洲人。
 
Tom Fuzery
You are clearly not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but it’s still amusing to see how ignorant some people are.
Finnish is a Finno-Ugric language. 99.9% of the Finno-Ugric speakers live and have lived in Europe for thousands of years. Meanwhile a dominant part of the Indo-European language speakers never even set a foot on European soil. So who is more European then?
 
显然你不是最聪明的人，但看到一些人的无知仍然很有趣。芬兰语是芬诺-乌戈尔语族的语言。99.9%的芬诺-乌戈尔语使用者在过去几千年里一直生活在欧洲。而与此同时，许多印欧语系的使用者甚至没有踏上过欧洲土地。那么谁更具欧洲特征呢？
 
Btw, I assume you don’t consider yourself American either. As your language and culture is most definitely “non-American” by your logic. Your language and culture in America has less than 15-20% of the time what the Finnish culture and history has in Europe. Has anyone given you permission to call yourself American? I bet there would be plenty arguing against your case.
Based on your question, I don’t assume you recognise the picture below. This is Helsinki the capital of Finland. How much more European could that be?
 
顺便问一下，我猜你也不认为自己是美国人。因为按你的逻辑，你的语言和文化在美国明显是“非美国”的。美国的语言和文化与芬兰的文化和历史相比，仅占欧洲的15-20%。有人允许你称自己为美国人吗？我敢打赌会有人对此提出异议。根据你的问题，我猜你不认识下面的图片。这是芬兰首都赫尔辛基。还能有多欧洲呢？

Alan Murrie
Every one of the 44 UN countries on the European continent are fiercely independent, and even if some have common languages, the local dialects are very specific. From Spain to Sweden, they are mostly cooperative, and will never move away from their respective cultures. Even Russia and Ukraine are part of Europe. Only Americans make the mistake of calling Europe a country, so that leads to the impression that any country not speaking the imaginary “European” language, is not part of it.
 
欧洲大陆上的44个联合国成员国都是极其独立的，即使有些国家有共同语言，当地的方言也非常独特。
从西班牙到瑞典，它们大多是合作的，但不会偏离各自的文化。即使是俄罗斯和乌克兰也属于欧洲。只有美国人会犯将欧洲称为一个国家的错误，这给人的印象是，任何不说想象中的“欧洲”语言的国家都不是欧洲的一部分。