话题讨论：中国高铁发展的第一个十年 part1
The First 10 Years of China's High Speed Rail Development
译文简介
网友：在第九张幻灯片的时候，我都对兰州到宝鸡之间缺失的一段失去希望了，然后，砰，第十张幻灯片出现在我的视野中，我很高兴。欣慰。
正文翻译
The First 10 Years of China''s High Speed Rail Development
话题讨论：中国高铁发展的第一个十年 part1
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By the ninth slide, I was giving up hope for the missing leg between Lanzhou and Baoji, then BAM, the tenth slide comes into view and I am gratified. GRATIFIED.
在第九张幻灯片的时候，我都对兰州到宝鸡之间缺失的一段失去希望了，然后，砰，第十张幻灯片出现在我的视野中，我很高兴。欣慰。
还有嫉妒；我们需要迅速行动起来，让我们的（美国）事情井然有序，就像高铁一样。
Sadly it seems like you guys get sabotaged by corpos when you try like when Elon pulled that Hyperloop shit :(
可悲的是，当你们试图行动时，似乎总会遭到企业的破坏，就像埃隆搞的那个超级高铁一样。
Yeah, another post in this thread lays it out (if that was you, kudos). As long as the fossil fuel industry can make a buck, that's what we're gonna do, come hell or high water. Fucking literally.
是的，这个帖子的另一篇回复已经解释得很清楚了（如果那是你写的，恭喜）。只要化石燃料行业能赚钱，我们就会不管任何困难都要继续这样做。真他妈的。
Hyperloop IS shit. Normal high speed rail isnt. It doesnt make sense to connect cities across the whole country, but HSR connecting californian cities, HSR connecting NYC region and Great lakes HSR makes sense.
超级高铁确实是狗屎。普通的高速铁路则不同，将城市连接起来是有意义的，但是将整个国家的城市连接起来并不合理，但是连接加利福尼亚州的城市、连接纽约市地区和五大湖地区的高速铁路是有意义的。
China is the same size as the United States, but they connected the whole country or a good portion of it
中国和美国一样大，但他们连接了整个国家或很大一部分。
China is the same size geographically as the US, but with 4 times the population. Over a billion people live in the Eastern 1/3 of China (where 95% of the rails shown on the map are at).
中国在地理上与美国相同大小，但人口是美国的4倍。超过10亿人口居住在中国的东部1/3地区（地图上显示的铁路95%位于该地区）。
They also have like 3 times the population so it makes a little more sense
他们的人口是美国的3倍，所以高铁更有意义。
It still makes sense with a third of the numbers. Hugh speed rail could greatly increase social mobility, especially if supplemented with regular rail that connects rural areas with urban areas
即使人口只有三分之一，高铁还是有意义的。高速铁路可以极大地增加社会流动性，特别是如果加上连接农村和城市地区的常规铁路的话。
Oh yes I agree that we could use better public transportation I was just stating why chinas was so sprawled out
哦，是的，我同意我们可以用到更好的公共交通，我只是在说为什么中国的高铁如此分散。
I would love to see something like this for Canada. Driving from central BC to Vancouver would be a dream if I could take a HSR.
我希望加拿大也能有这样的东西。如果我能乘坐高铁，从BC省中部开车到温哥华就是做梦了。
The issue is property rights and eminent domain. It’s a legal and bureaucratic nightmare to build systems like these in the US/Canada because it will inevitably involve the government forcing people to sell their land if it exists on top of any proposed route.
问题是产权和土地征用权。在美国/加拿大建立这样的系统是一个法律和官僚主义的噩梦，因为它将不可避免地会牵扯到政府强迫人们出售他们的土地，如果它存在于任何拟议的路线之上。
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这也是为什么修建边境墙和石油管道等不受欢迎的项目极其困难的原因。它经过了太多的司法管辖区，影响了太多的人，以至于他们面临着大量的法律和政治挑战。
我想这是把双刃剑。大型基础设施项目将使一大群人受益，但不可避免地会伤害一小群人，这些人由于真正靠近这些项目而直接受到建设的影响。有点像20世纪60年代和70年代，为了建设我们今天的州际高速公路系统，有些社区整个都被摧毁了。
The California High Speed rail is a good example of that as well. Around 2000 land parcels need to be acquired and after 15 years there’s about 200 parcels still needed.
加州高速铁路也是一个很好的例子。大约需要收购2000块土地，15年后需要收购的土地还有大约200块。
They had no problem doing that to clear out ghettos and underdeveloped areas to build super highways
为了修建高速公路，他们当年可以毫无问题的清除贫民窟和欠发达地区。
Yeah, that would thankfully be much more difficult today.
是啊，谢天谢地，这在今天要困难得多。
look at norway, we got 4 lines, none of them going to north norway, its unfeasible anywhere with long stretches of mountains, it would bankrupt the government i they tried.
看看挪威，我们有4条铁路，没有一条通往北挪威，这在任何有长山脉的地方都不可行，如果他们尝试的话，会让政府破产。
with geographical blockages like those they don’t need to be high speed rail. high speed does a good job connecting areas regionally but other distances or with mountains it can be done with regular rail. i mean they did it in the alps with technology far less than what we have today
由于这样的地理阻隔，他们不需要高铁。高铁在连接区域方面很好，但其他距离或山脉可以用普通铁路来完成。我的意思是他们在阿尔卑斯山用就是这样做的，利用的是远不如我们今天的技术。
China has all sorts of geographical obstacles, but the *CP doesn't care.
中国有各种各样的地理阻隔，但政府不在乎。
They've also run up massive amounts of government debt to do it.
他们还为此积累了大量的政府债务。
It's not supposed to be profitable.
高铁并不是是用来赚钱的。
I didn't say it wasn't profitable, I said they have massive amounts of debt. Those are two different things. Much of those railways, and the debt incurred as a result, was to pump up their GDP numbers. Their rail and housing policies are two aspects that have seriously rocked the Chinese financial system due to massive amounts of debt.
我没说不赚钱，我是说他们有大量的债务。这是两码事。这些铁路的大部分，以及由此产生的债务，是为了提振他们的GDP数字。由于巨额债务，他们的铁路和住房政策严重冲击了中国的金融体系。
Other countries that respect property and enviromental laws are capable of doing it.
其他尊重财产法和环境法的国家有能力做到。
中国基础设施最令人印象深刻的地方在于规模。他们造了很多很多。设计师、工程师、工人等在这方面做得越来越好。他们将每一列火车、桥梁、隧道和电力系统标准化，这样他们就能以低廉的价格生产这些东西。世界其他国家只能零敲碎打。一次一座桥，一条车道，然后暂停，然后另一个。
实际上，如果将高铁里程除以人口或平方公里，那么中国一点也不令人印象深刻。日本、韩国、西班牙和许多欧洲国家都遥遥领先。中国引以为豪的是其建设这一体系的速度。
China is interesting because they brought rails to an area of the world that hadn’t had it before. The very idea of time and how we view time in terms of specific hours is a very recent one. Like how European cities had clock towers, in America the towns had train stations.
中国很有趣，因为他们把铁路带到了一些曾经没有过铁路的地方。时间的概念以及我们如何用特定的小时来看待时间是最近才出现的。就像欧洲城市有钟楼一样，美国的城镇也有火车站。
这些都是按照时间表进行的，有一个时钟，所以每个人都知道现在是什么时间。这是一个巨大的变化，在此之前，人们在提到时间时实际上不涉及细节。现在，给人们一个特定的时间去做某事被认为是一种常态。
在那之前，告诉别人两点在某处见面没有任何意义。
这一切都是最近才发生的。就中国而言，甚至要更近。铁路连接中国农村也意味着这些人与外部世界的联系，以及时间的概念(一天24小时)。
人们直到最近才有时钟，这个想法想想都很神奇。
总而言之，其他国家在进行这些大规模的铁路项目时，却没有强迫居住在这些项目沿线的人们搬家或改变他们的整个生活方式，这种想法是一种幻想。
Then how do/did they build roads?
那他们是怎么修路的?
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Canada doesn’t have the population density to justify nationwide high speed rail. The revenue collected won’t be enough to pay off the rail lines that service low density areas. So only the Quebec City - Montreal - Ottawa - Toronto - Windsor corridor has the population density to support a high speed rail line. Many routes in China’s high speed rail system aren’t money makers and the company that builds and operates it is in heavy debt.
加拿大没有足够的人口密度来支撑全国性的高铁。征收的税收将不足以支付服务于低密度地区的铁路费用。因此，只有魁北克市-蒙特利尔-渥太华-多伦多-温莎走廊的人口密度足以支撑高速铁路线。中国高铁系统中的许多线路都不赚钱，建造和运营这些线路的公司负债累累。
Public infrastructure isn't supposed to make a profit. Nobody is arguing that for example the US interstate system is a failure because it loses money
公共基础设施不应该盈利。例如，没有人因为美国州际公路系统在赔钱，而认为它是失败的。
Public transit in general is not a money maker and is supported by tax revenue.
一般来说，公共交通不是赚钱的工具，而是由税收支持的。。
First of all, hsr in that there corridor is already a huge improvement from now, so yeah, build it lol
首先，这条走廊上的高铁已经有了巨大的进步，所以建吧，哈哈。
其次，交通运输(就像医疗、消防、警察、教育一样)不应该寻求盈利。它应该寻求独立于盈利能力实际提供服务。
resources aren't unlimited
sometimes you have to accept the benefits of certain projects are so out of proportion to their cost it's not worth it
there's a difference between unprofitable & simply bad
资源不是无限的，
有时候你不得不接受某些项目的收益与成本不成比例，不值得。
无利可图和糟糕之间是有区别的。
Hsr in that corridor would absolutely be pursued in any other european country
-medium size
-high population
-high amount of commuters between those cities
-economic, political, and cultural centre of the country
it's a fucking straight line
这条走廊上的高铁绝对会在任何其他欧洲国家推行：
- 中等大小
- 人口数量大
- 城市之间有大量的通勤者
- 国家的经济、政治和文化中心
这TM就是一条笔直的线路。
该死的，芬兰是欧洲人口密度最低的国家（是的，我知道北美横跨数万英里，那里就是一个每平方公里的平均人数为零的星星，而相比之下，欧洲就像科洛桑），尽管他们没有高速铁路，但他们所有的主要城市都通过铁路相连。你可以乘坐两列火车从拥有100万人口的首都到达芬兰北部一个只有500人口的小村庄。
加拿大缺乏公共基础设施是没有借口的。这也适用于骑自行车(是的，骑自行车，在霜冻、大风、大雪中，在汉密尔顿或彼得伯勒的野生冰冻荒地上漫步的北极熊中。)问问奥卢关于在雪地里骑车的感觉。)
Excuse
没。有。借。口。
"tHe US iS tOo bIg fOr tRaInS"
“美国太大了，不适合火车。”
Are there 1.3 billion Americans? I'm not saying we shouldn't build more railway infrastructure, but Chinese East Coast is VERY densely populated. These kind of transport systems are even more necessary and useful than in other countries. Plus, the Chinese State doesn't have any issues "buying" land from people in order to build the lines. In normal countries it's quite difficult to expropriate that amount of land fastly.
美国有13亿人吗? 我不是说我们不应该建设更多的铁路基础设施，但中国东海岸人口非常密集。这种运输系统比其他国家更有必要，也更有用。此外，为了修建铁路，中国政府从人们那里“购买”土地也没有任何问题。在正常国家，要快速征用这么多土地是相当困难的。
That doesn't seem to stop you from building mega-highways all across the country, does it? Where was the land ownership excuse (yes, that's what it is) then?
这似乎并没有阻止你在全国各地修建高速公路，对吧? 那怎么不提土地所有权的借口呢(是的，就是这样)?
Where was the land ownership excuse (yes, that's what it is) then?
They just took the land via eminent domain from minorities and poor people.
他们只是通过征用权从少数民族和穷人那里拿走了土地。
I love how Americans keep coming up with excuses to not build public transport, aight buddy how about Russian rail, is russia densely populated? , oh in case you don't know russia is the biggest country on earth.
我喜欢美国人总是为不建设公共交通找借口，好吧，兄弟，俄罗斯的铁路怎么样，俄罗斯人口稠密吗? 哦，俄罗斯是地球上最大的国家，如果你不知道的话。
I'm not even American, buddy. In fact, I'm Spanish. We have a lot of HST, but our geographical and social reality is different from American one.
我都不是美国人，伙计。事实上，我是西班牙人。我们有很多高铁，但我们的地理和社会现实与美国不同。
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We have a lot of HST,
Oh, you guys must have over a billion people then or else your original post would be extremely stupid.
哦，你们肯定有超过10亿人，否则你最初的帖子就非常愚蠢了。
European part of Russia is actually quite densely populated and Russia doesn't have any HSR
俄罗斯的欧洲部分实际上人口非常密集，俄罗斯没有任何高铁。
Neither comment above mentioned HSR, merely trains and public transport
上面的评论都没有提到高铁，只是火车和公共交通。
Seeing as this is a post about HSR, I imagine the comment about the US being "too big for trains" specifically referred to HSR. As the US does have regular speed trains.
鉴于这是一个关于高铁的帖子，我想关于美国“对火车来说太大了”的评论特指的是高铁。就像美国有常规高速列车一样。
Chinese East Coast is VERY densely populated
The US East Coast, by contrast, is practically deserted /s
相比之下，美国东海岸几乎无人居住。/狗头
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