网友讨论：为什么欧洲在经济上正在变得越来越无关紧要？

Scurr
You have several good points. One thing though that I'll point out is that Europe's share of global GDP is not just shrinking because Europe sucks but because of other countries growing and taking up more of the global GDP share. And it's not just Europe. The share of global GDP by the USA was 40% in the 1960's and has fallen to 24% today.
 
你提出了几个很棒的观点。但我想要指出的一点是欧洲经济占全球gdp比例下滑不仅是因为欧洲自身表现不好的原因，而且还因为其他国家的经济在不断的发展，他们占据了比以前更多的全球gdp份额。而且占全球gdp比例下滑的不仅仅只有欧洲，上世纪60年代，美国占世界经济的40%，但如今已经下滑到只有24%了
 
Defintity _
Well, that's because the USA was the only developed country not destroyed in WW2. However, if you look at a graph from the 1970s onwards you see that the USA has accounted for a stable 25%, even increasing in recent times.
 
那是因为美国是二战中唯一没有被摧毁的发达国家。但如果你看一下上世纪70年代以来的图表，就会发现美国占世纪经济的比例一直稳定在25%，最近几年甚至还在上升。
 
Josh Bentley
The USA has stayed at 25% for decades.
Europe is declining far, far faster than the United States
 
几十年来，美国占世界经济的比例一直都稳定在25%。
欧洲下滑的速度远远超过了美国
 
Chraman
But GDP per capita for the US is increasing. It has been declining for most European countries and Canada since 2008
 
但美国的人均gdp一直都在上升，而自2008年以来，大部分欧洲国家和加拿大的人均gdp一直都在下降。
 
Mariusz P
@Josh Bentley  USA has stable growth of population (1960: 180mln, 2020: 330mln = 83% up) while Europe has almost no population growth from the 90's (1990: 720mln) (1960: 610mln, 2020: 740)
 
美国的人口一直都在稳步增长（1960年1.8亿人口，2020年3.3亿人口，增加了83%）。而欧洲人口自上世纪90年代以来几乎没有任何增长（1990年欧洲人口7.2亿，1960年人口6.1亿，2020年人口7.4亿）
 
Josh Bentley
@Mariusz P  if Europe had the same gdp per capita as the USA we’d have a gdp of around $50 trillion, over 50% of the world’s economy.
Just putting it down to population growth is false, Americans wages are going up faster than Europeans.
 
如果欧洲的人均gdp和美国一样高，那么我们的gdp总量将会达到50万亿美元左右，占世界经济的50%以上。
仅仅将原因归咎于人口增长是不对的，美国的工资增长幅度要高于欧洲。
 
Mariusz P
@Josh Bentley  GDP per capita and wages are two different things. To compare efficiency you have to take into account value of products produced by each employee in one hour. And here Europe isn't so far behind USA. The gap in GDP per capita, you are talking about, is caused by that the Europeans work less hours - have more holidays, don't take overtime, have more maternity leave, and finally earlier retire.
 
人均gdp和工资是两回事。你必须将每个员工单位时间的劳动生产价值考虑在内才能知道欧洲和美国哪个生产的效率更高。欧洲的生产效率并没有落后美国太多。你提到的人均gdp上的差距是由于欧洲人工作时间更少造成的，在欧洲，人们有更多的假期，不用加班，有更多的产假，而且欧洲人可以更早的退休。
 
MrWise
@Chraman  Europe gdp per capita isn’t getting lower . Most country’s still increase but not that fast.
 
欧洲的人均gdp并没有下降，大部分国家依然还在增长，只是没有美国那么快而已。
 
Brian B
@Max Hall it's just 40 hour work weeks here in the states.  I have a great quality of life here, way more compared to other countries
 
在美国我每周的工作时间只有40个小时，在这里我的生活质量很好，要远远好于大部分国家
 
David W
@Chraman  the gdp per capita increases in the US because the US is the only western nation where life expectancy is shrinking and has been also before the pandemic. The share on the global economy doesn't says anything how good or bad the situation in the US is. In fact life in the US is miserable comparing to Europe but yes the US has more global influence.
 
美国人均gdp增加是因为美国是唯一预期寿命在缩短的西方国家，在新冠疫情发生之前，美国的预期寿命就一直在下滑当中。美国在全球经济当中的比例并不能说明他的情况有多好，当然也不能说明他有多差。事实上和欧洲相比，美国的生活相当的糟糕，但是的，美国拥有更大的全球影响力。
 
Diana B.
@Chraman  No, GDP per capita has definitely been increasing for most European countries, for the past 15 years. Take a look at the data.
 
不，过去15年，欧洲大部分国家的人均gdp一直都在增长。你应该好好看看数据
 
Chraman
@Diana B.  I did. I can't see it. For example, Germany
GDP per capita 2008: 45k
2019: 46k
If you now take inflation into account. You are seeing the country is becoming poorer.
Others are even worse.
Italy 2008: 41k
Italy 2019: 33k
Meanwhile USA:
2008: 48k
2019: 65k
 
我看过数据了，但我没有发现他们的人均gdp在增长。以德国为例
2008年德国的人均gdp为4.5万美元
2019年德国人均gdp为4.6万美元
如果你将通货膨胀也考虑进去的话，那么实际上德国这个国家是在变得越来越穷。
其他欧洲国家的情况甚至更加糟糕
意大利2008年的人均gdp为4.1万美元
2019年为3.3万美元
与此同时美国2008年的人均gdp为4.8万美元，2019年为6.5万美元
 
Joey
Debt in 95% of EU countries is lower than that of the US. Quality of life is also much higher in the EU. In export Europe also does better than the US.
 
95%的欧洲国家的债务水平要比美国低。欧盟的生活质量也要比美国高很多。欧洲在出口上的表现也要比美国好
 
Anish Mukherjee
The top 4 economies in ppp, they are China, USA, EU and India. We can clearly see that China and US have surpassed EU long back and in coming years India might as well do the same. The reason is simple, the rest 3 are super states with large area and population under a single political structure. EU on the other hand is a combination of 28 different countries and though it may seem like they are a single political unit, they are essentially 28 different countries in the end.
 
按照购买力平价计算，世界前4大经济体分别是中国，美国，欧盟和印度。我们可以清楚的看到在很久之前中国和美国就已经超过了欧盟，未来几年印度或许也会超过欧盟。原因很简单，中国，美国和印度都是面积辽阔，人口众多的单一政治实体。而欧盟是由28个国家组成的联合体，尽管看起来他们或许是一个单一的政治实体，但他们本质上还是28个不同的国家。
 
Joey
@Anish Mukherjee  GDP China $19.91 trillion. EU 17.09 trillion. 17.09 trillion is just the EU.
UK isn't counted.
All these countries aren't counted too. Iceland, Monaco, Georgia, Andorra, Ukraine, San Marino, Liechtenstein, Switserland, Norway, Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, Turkey, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo, Moldova,  and even Vatican City.
If you look at GDP per capita the EU has a average of 4× more than China. A country like Monaco, Liechtenstein or Switserland has 10× more.
 
中国gdp是19.91万亿美元。欧盟是17.09万亿美元。
但是英国的gdp没有被统计在内。
而且以下这些国家的gdp也都没有被算在内：冰岛，摩纳哥，格鲁吉亚，安道尔，乌克兰，圣马力诺，列支敦士登、瑞士、挪威、阿尔巴尼亚、马其顿、黑山、塞尔维亚、土耳其、波斯尼亚和黑塞哥维那、科索沃、摩尔多瓦，甚至梵蒂冈城。
如果看人均gdp的话，欧盟人均dgp是中国的四倍多。像摩纳哥、列支敦士登或瑞士这样的国家的人均gdp则是中国的十倍以上。
 
Moon Shine
While that’s true, you can’t deny that Europe is becoming irrelevant and getting left behind in tech. India is emerging as the competitor for the US tech scene.
 
但这是事实，欧洲正在变得越来越无关紧要，他们在科技领域被甩在了后面。印度正在成为美国科技领域的竞争对手。
 
Benghis Kahn
"Europe seems more fragmented than it seems. It is really just 28 different markets rather than a single large one" - This is only true from the outside looking in. For those 28 different member states, the EU is a large single market with a great degree of market harmonisation which allows for almost unfettered fluidity of market access for EU companies.
The EU works great, the problem is that Europe has a rapidly aging demographic with a subsequent age profile which is much older than the US or China. Why is this significant? Because youth drives growth and innovation.
 
“欧洲比表面看起来更加的支离破碎。欧盟内部不是一个单一的大市场，它是由28个不同市场组成的。“从表面上看的确如此。但对于28个欧盟成员国来说，欧盟就是一个单一的大市场，它具有高度的市场协调性，它可以让欧盟内部的企业几乎不受限制的进入不同国家的市场当中。
欧盟表现的很好，但欧盟的问题在于欧盟的人口正在快速老龄化，欧盟随后的人口年龄结构将会比美国和中国老的多。为什么人口年龄结构如此重要？因为增长和创新需要年轻人来推动。
 
ulyks
As a programmer working in Europe, I have to mention that the single market is not realized yet. Not only do we have to waste countless hours one regulations differing from one country to another ( often even between regions within countries) but there is an additional language complexity.
Compared with China or the US that have single language software, European IT companies have to deal with endless translation issues.
 
作为一名在欧洲工作的程序员，我不得不说欧洲并没有实现单一市场。我们不仅要在不同国家不同的法规上面浪费无数的时间（甚至同一个国家不同地区的法规也存在差异），而且还要面对额外的错综复杂的语言问题。
中国和美国的软件只有一种语言，而相比之下，欧洲的IT企业不得不处理无穷无尽的翻译问题。
 
The Peacock Rhino
The EU has been an absolute disaster and it’s going to struggle to stay together. There isn’t really a single market in a true sense. I’m delighted we left.
 
欧盟完全就是一个灾难，欧盟很难团结一致。欧盟没有真正意义上的单一市场。我很高兴我们脱离了欧盟
 
Dr.Wahnsinn
As the others said the EU is far away from being a unified market, because of Language and regulation bariers.
 
正如其他人所说，由于语言和法规上的障碍，欧盟还远远没有成为一个统一市场。
 
Haily Rizzo
I agree the European market is too fragmented. In America you have 300 million people who speak the same language and in China 1 billion. Europe may have a population of 700 million but it's people are brought up in different countries speaking different languages with slightly different cultures. In Europe, you may get a German company considering a French job applicant for a position in Spain. In America, if you have a Silicon Valley company hiring someone from Idaho to work in New York, it's no problem.  So not only is your market fragmented, so too is your talent pool. Another thing is English is the language used in America and because it is the international language America has access to a vast overseas migrant talent pool from all over the world, not just UK, Canada, Australia but also from Asia and Africa. Look at the number of Indian talents in America tech companies.
 
我同意你的看法，欧洲市场的确是支离破碎的。美国有3亿人说同一种语言，而中国有10亿人说同一种语言。欧洲大概有七亿人口，但欧洲人在不同国家长大，他们说着不同的语言，而且他们的文化也存在着些许的差异。在欧洲，你或许会遇到这样的情况：一家德国企业考虑让法国求职者到西班牙去工作。在美国，如果一家硅谷公司雇佣一个爱达荷州的人去纽约工作，那么不会遇到任何问题。所以欧洲不仅仅是市场支离破碎，而且就连人才库也是如此。另外一点就是美国使用的是英语，而英语是国际语言，所以美国可以接触到来自世界各地的大量的海外人才，他们不仅可以获得英国，加拿大澳大利亚的人才，而且还可以获得亚洲和非洲的人才。看看美国科技企业里面的印度人才数量就知道了。
 
vinay
There is no such thing as "international language"
 
根本就没有所谓的什么国际语言
 
Haily Rizzo
@vinay  But English is the lingua franca of the world. Most non-native speakers would want to choose English as their second language. Look at the native English speakers. Most of them don't bother to learn a second language because they know the rest of world will bend backwards to learn English. Further, if a German company want to do business in Thailand, they would most likely be communicating in English.
 
但英语就是世界通用语。大部分英语不是母语的人会选择英语作为他们的第二语言。看看那些母语是英语的人，他们大部分都懒得去学习第二语言。因为他们知道世界上其他地方的人都会不遗余力的去学习英语。而且一家德国企业要在泰国开展业务，那么他们很有可能会选择用英语进行交流。
 
U.S.Navy_Pete
EVERYONE in innovation and technology in Europe speaks English.
 
欧洲从事创新科技方面的人都会说英语
 
Frida
Stop the BS. Everybody speaks English. Especially in tech
 
不要胡说了，每个人都说英语，尤其是科技领域的人
 
Bryan
Language is not a barrier. Most European countries adopt English as a second language. In countries like the Netherlands English is official language
 
语言不是障碍。大部分欧洲国家都把英语当作第二语言。而在荷兰这样的国家，英语是他们的官方语言。
 
Gamer Mapper
Also, the most spoken language in America is actually Spanish, not English.
 
实际上美国人说的最多的是西班牙语，而不是英语
 
Chud Chadanstud
Most Europeans speak English. Language is not the issue. The issue is liberalism and the "new green agenda".
 
大部分欧洲人都说英语。问题在于自由足以和新环保议程
 
viper king 65
@Chud Chadanstud  I don't think most Europeans can comfortably speak English yet, especially the elders :\\\\\\\\
 
我认为大部分欧洲人还无法流利的说英语，尤其是老年人。
 
Tiaan Kruger
as a few people have mentioned, Europe might not grow as economically, but workers are way better off.
In a lot of countries in Europe, you can actually live decently on a minimum wage (and a full-time job).
 
正如一些人所提到的那样，欧洲的经济或许没有增长的那么快，但在欧洲工人的生活条件要好很多
在很多欧洲国家，仅凭最低工资你就可以生活的非常体面。
 
Towel
This won’t last. Europe is aging fast and losing money fast.
 
但这是不可持续的。欧洲正在快速的老龄化，欧洲正在快速的失去自己的财富。
 
Justin
Will that last forever if companies have to start laying off people, slowing their wage growth? You're against the clock and these relaxing easy lifestyle won't last forever.
 
如果企业不得不开始裁员，并放缓工资增长幅度，那么欧洲的这种情况还能永远持续下去吗？你们现在是在和时间赛跑，欧洲悠闲自在的生活方式不会永远持续下去。
 
Robert Wright
The problem is as Europe grows weaker it’ll become too weak to defend its interests. That’ll mean European prosperity won’t be unsustainable.
 
但问题在于随着欧洲变得越来越弱，它将无力再保卫自己的利益。这意味着欧洲的繁荣将是不可持续的。
 
Stefan
The lack of big companies is not a problem for Europe. Big companies are rather an economic hindrance than an advantage. Look, for example, at Samsung: too big to fail. South Korean giants become a hindrance to the South Korean economy and make a life of an average South Korean a misery.
 
欧洲的问题不在于缺少大公司。大公司不但无法促进经济发展，反而还会成为经济发展的阻碍。举个例子，对于韩国来说，三星已经大到不能倒的程度。韩国企业巨头已经成为韩国经济发展的阻碍，这些企业巨头使韩国普通人的生活变得非常艰难。
 
Trent
Still won't change that fact Europe is in decline lose to America and Asia to compete
 
这依然改变不了欧洲正在衰落的事实，欧洲在竞争中输给了美国和亚洲。
 
alex dru
You forgot to mention ASML. That is probably the most important European tech company. Without it there wouldn't be a tech industry and semiconductor manufacturing in Asia
 
你忘了提阿斯麦尔。这或许是欧洲最重要的科技企业。没有阿斯麦尔，就没有亚洲的科技产业和半导体制造业。