网友讨论：为什么法国对德国感到不满？
Why France is Annoyed with Germany
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网友：对德国不满是法国的一向传统。
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网友讨论：为什么法国对德国感到不满？
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France being annoyed with Germany is simply tradition.
对德国不满是法国的一向传统。
Some things never change
有些事情从未发生过改变
Next we would see France and UK getting annoyed at each other
接下来我们将看到法国和英国彼此之间感到不满
As an American, I can certainly understand Macron's position of wanting less reliance on the US for defense.
作为一个美国人，我能理解马克龙希望减少对美国国防依赖的立场
The issue is that Germany is a vassal state to the US, but France is not. The other issue being of course the nonsensical energy policy of Germany, and for that one I don't even know what to say, I still can't understand how the German political class can be so clueless in that field.
问题是德国是美国的附属国，但法国不是。德国另一个问题在于其荒谬的能源政策，对于这个问题，我甚至都不知道该说什么好，我依然无法理解德国政界怎么会在这个领域上如此的无知
Disagreeing on certain topics doesn't mean friendship is crumbling.
在某些问题上存在不同意见并不意味着友谊的破裂。
As a german, I have to say that I agree in most of the points with France.. our government really needs to strengthen its army
作为一个德国人，我不得不说我同意法国的大部分观点。我们政府真的需要加强自己军队的实力了
Your green party is really a big joke
你们的绿党就是一个天大的笑话
@Karan Kapoor no they aren't the conservatives are
不，他们不是，保守党才是笑话
Given the recent Russian invasion, USA is a much more reliable ally in war compared to France (ask Ukraine)
Why try making a new platform when there is a working one on the market?
鉴于最近俄罗斯对乌克兰的入侵，和法国相比，美国才是战争中更加可靠的盟友
市场上已经有了一个可靠的平台了，为什么我们还要再创建一个新的平台呢？
No in defence security Germany were right. EU still far behind from create it own weapon .France just angry nobody want buy they old rafale
不，在国防安全方面，德国是对的，欧盟在武器制造方面依然远远落后，法国只是生气没有人买他们老旧的阵风战机而已
I'm from the Netherlands and I completely side with Macron on this regarding European defence industry. How can you ever develop your own industry if you keep spending all your money on foreign manufactured (mostly American) products. On a geopolitical level Europe behaves like a naïef little kid that goes from one dependency, Russian gas, to the next, Chinese manufacturing and the US defence industry.
我来自荷兰，在欧洲国防工业问题上我完全支持马克龙。如果你把钱一直花在购买外国产品上（主要是美国的）那么你要如何发展自己的工业呢？在地缘政治层面上，欧洲表现的就像是一个幼稚的孩童一样，他们先是依赖俄罗斯的天然气，再到依赖中国的制造业和美国的国防工业。
@Trent In 2021 and 2022, France sold more Rafales jets than the US with their F-35. The Rafale is now a best-seller, soon even surpassing the very successful Mirage 2000
在2021年和2022年，法国出售的阵风战机超过了美国的F35。阵风现在是最畅销的战机，它的销售成绩甚至很快将超过非常成功的幻影2000
I never thought I would say this during my lifetime, but I'm with France on this one.
我从来没有想到我这辈子会这样说，但我在这个问题上支持法国
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@Tom On a Budget
Guess why 15 countries are standing against France on this one.
Because France would be the main benefitiary. There are loads of European defence projects in the works right now. The problem is that they're taking too long.
That leaves those 15 countries with 3 options:
1. Buy new top-of-the-line products from the US
2. Wait for new EU-developments
3. Buy existing outdated Tech, from within the EU.
The 15 countries want new weapons FAST. Therefore they go for 1.
France is the only one who wants Option 3. Why? Because all the producers of Option 3 sit in France. Eastern Europe are eager to be equipped with good NATO stuff. The US is the only provider for that right now.
猜猜为什么会有15个国家会在这个问题上反对法国？
因为法国将会是主要的受益者。欧洲有很多国防项目正在进行阶段。但问题在于他们花的时间实在是太长了。
这使得这15个国家只能有以下三个选择：
1从美国购买新的最顶级的产品
2等待欧盟最新的研发成果
3从欧盟内部购买过时的技术
这15个国家希望尽快拥有新的武器。所以他们选择了第一个选项。法国是唯一想要选择第三个选项的国家。为什么？因为选项3中的所有制造商都位于法国。东欧国家迫切希望装备上北约的优良装备。而现在能提供这些装备的只有美国。
@TheMG26 no many european countries in europe have militaro industrial complexes.
不，很多欧洲国家都有军工复合体
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@TheMG26 n Yes it would benefit France more than the others, but if it benefits France, it benefits the EU and indirectly benefits other EU members.
Plus the Rafale is a good deal compared to the F35, I'm not saying it's better, but when you compare price vs capability vs experience on battlefield I'd buy the Rafale.
是的，这会让法国获得比其他国家更多的好处，但法国受惠就等于是欧盟受惠，这也可以让欧盟其他成员国获得间接好处。
而且和F35相比，阵风是一笔很不错的交易，我不是说阵风更好，但对比两款战机的价格性能和战场经验后，我会选择阵风
@Zayd ALAOUI how does buying outdated fighters benefit the EU?
购买过时的战机对欧盟有何好处
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@nox5555 Rafale is not outdated, actually it’s more reliable than F35 which on paper is better
阵风没有过时，阵风实际上比F35更加可靠，F35只是纸面数据好看而已。
@Zayd ALAOUI Well luckily you are not in the positions to make the decision.
好吧，幸运的是，处于决策位置上的人不是你
@Zayd ALAOUI , the Rafeal is a fourth generation fighter. You absolutely would be out of your mind to choose it over the F35 which is a fifth generation fighter.
Especially now Lockheed is able to use the massive US defense procurement push the cost of the F35 near the price of the Rafael.
This is one of the reasons why the Swiss bought the F35 over the Rafael.
No one knows this better than the French themselves. That’s why they are trying to find a partner to develop their own fifth generation stealth aircraft.
But France is not the US it doesn’t have the deep pockets that the US has, and it cannot finish these projects all on its own.
By the time they start doing this, the US will be rolling out their 6th generation fighters.
阵风是四代机，如果你选择阵风而放弃五代机F35，那么你肯定是疯了。尤其是现在洛克希德马丁可以利用美国大规模的国防采购将F35的成本降低至和阵风差不多的水平。
这是为什么瑞士人会选择购买F35而不是阵风的原因之一。
没有人比法国人更加了解这一点。这就是为什么法国要试图寻找合作伙伴研发属于自己的五代机的原因。但法国不是美国，它没有美国那么雄厚的财力，它无法独自完成这些项目。等到他们开始研发五代机的时候，美国将推出自己的六代机。
@TheMG26 n Outdated tech from the EU ? I think you're underestimating the EU military-industrial complex.
In many domains, EU military tech is on par and sometimes even ahead of the US ones. Submarines, ships, light drones, missiles, lasers, rocket/missile/space technology, IFVs, tanks,... some of those products are even more advanced than those in the United States. Moreover, all the European made weapons are NATO-compatible.
The real power of the US military industrial complex is size plus unlimited money, which give them the ability to produce faster and more.
来自欧盟过时的技术？我认为你低估了欧盟的军工复合体
在很多领域，欧盟的军事技术和美国相当，有时候甚至要领先美国。潜艇，军舰，轻型无人机，导弹，激光，火箭/导弹/空间技术，步兵战车，坦克，，，这些产品中有部分甚至比美国的更加先进。而且所有欧洲制造的武器都是和北约兼容的。
美国军工复合体真正的力量在于规模和无限的资金优势，这使得他们可以生产的更快更多。
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on economic matters Germany has the right path we don’t want to pay the rest of Europe anymore
德国在经济上的道路是正确的，我们不想再给欧洲其他国家交钱了
@Lynox and some still don't understand that our economies aren't isolated like in 1900.
World's and especially European economies are highly interconnected and interdependent so if your neighbors don't go well, German economy will suffer as well and the opposite is also true, strong EU economies benefit Germany.
有些人你依然不明白，现在已经不是1900年了，我们的经济不是相互孤立的。世界经济，尤其是欧洲经济，是高度相互联系相互依赖的，所以如果你的邻国们发展的不好，那么德国经济也会受到影响，反过来同样也是如此，一个经济强大的欧盟对德国是有好处的
I gotta side with France. Specially defence. The EU really needs to has it's own stance in the world.
我支持法国。尤其是在国防问题上。欧盟在世界舞台上真的需要有自己的立场
Well, this is concerning for European unity since France & Germany are the most influential members of the EU. I do not believe it is as great a threat to NATO unity though because France has always had disagreements with a US-led alliance.
这事关欧盟的团结，因为德国和法国是欧盟最有影响力的成员国。但我认为这对北约团结并不是一个巨大的威胁，因为法国一直和以美国为首的联盟存在分歧。
Meddling with Ukraine by the US is one of the major causes of the war with russia which is inflicting enormous pain on the euro region
俄罗斯和乌克兰发生战争的主要原因之一就是因为有美国的干预，这场战争让欧元区承受了巨大的痛苦
France and Germany do have different opinions on a lot of things. There are always things we disagree on but that doesn't mean Germany and France stop working together.
法国和德国在很多问题上确实存在不同意见。我们总是在一些事情上存在分歧，但这并不意味着德国和法国会停止合作。
when it counts, Germany and France will put their squabbels aside and work together. Those small disagreements are completely normal, and that France is annoyed with Germany is basically the usual state.
在关键时刻，德国和法国会把分歧放在一边，共同努力。出现小小的分歧完全是正常的，法国对德国感到不满基本上也是正常的。
Having Europe beeing independent with its military would be good thing. On the other side germany really really doesnt want a military leading role.This basically comes from WW2 and germany wanting to be pacifists now.
让欧洲拥有独立军队是一件好事。但另一方面，德国真的不想承担军事领导者的角色。因为二战的缘故，德国现在想要成为一个和平主义者。
It is accurate to say that they want no one to be that leading rolein the EU. So they would rather be dependant on the US.
准确的说是德国不希望任何人领导欧盟。所以他们宁愿依赖美国
Hm… Weren’t German officials proudly declaring Germany will soon become the most powerful European military just a few weeks ago?
德国官员几周前不是还在骄傲的宣称德国很快将成为欧洲第一军事强国吗？
If Germany doesn't want military leading role they should send all their tanks to France.
如果德国不想在军事上发挥领导作用，那么就应该把所有的坦克送给法国
It's kinda funny that I am German and mostly agree with the French energy and defence plans.
有趣的是，作为一个德国人，我基本同意法国的能源和国防计划。
On the Defence front I entirely agree with France
在国防问题上，我完全支持法国的观点
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Im german and I didnt even know that France was angry at us.
我是德国人，我甚至都不知道法国在生我们的气
Seriously, we are furious for years about your stupid politics.
Bad choices after bad choices.
说真的，多年来，你们愚蠢的政治让我们感到很生气
你们做出了一个有一个糟糕的决定
I think most of eu’s countries are angry against Germany not only France but the majority of eu countries
我认为对德国感到恼火的不仅仅是法国，欧盟大部分国家对德国都很不满
I suspect that some weapon projects between France and Germany will be canceled, because there isn’t any or slow progress.
Especially FCAS could be cancelled, since Dassault refuses to cooperate with Airbus and does not share patents and technologies. Possibly Germany will buy either American machines or join the British-Italian Project Tempest.
我认为法国和德国之间的一些武器项目将会被取消，因为项目进展缓慢甚至没有进展。尤其是未来空战系统有可能会被取消，因为达索拒绝和空客合作，而且他们也不愿意共享专利和技术。德国有可能会购买美国的武器，或者加入英国和意大利的暴风雨项目。（未来空战系统是德法和西班牙为六代机研发的空战系统）