为什么希腊人把神话视为他们历史的一部分？

Yannis Gaitanas
Up until the birth of the sciences of geology, archaeology, and fianlly with carbon dating etc, people till the 19th century throughout the world regarded religion as part of their history. In all the cultures up till the 19th century the world was considered to have been created at some point by some deity or something, then some events described in their mythology happened and gradually humanity started wrtting things down and we got into historic times.

直到地质学、考古学和碳定年法等科学诞生之前，全世界的人们直到19世纪还把宗教视为他们历史的一部分。在19世纪之前的所有文化中，世界被认为是在某个时候由某个神或什么东西创造的，然后他们的神话中发生的一些事情被人类慢慢记录了下来，之后，人类逐渐进入了历史时代。
（译注：碳定年法，又称碳—14年代测定法或放射性碳定年法，由美国芝加哥大学教授、加州大学伯克利分校博士威拉得·利比（Willard Frank Libby）发明 ，威拉得·利比因此获得1960年诺贝尔化学奖 ）

The Greeks were no different. When Plutarch sat down to write the biographies of the most famous Grek and Roman people he had plenty of clues and was fairly certain on most of them since they were figures from the period that writing had been common and he could go to primary sources. For example there were primary sources about Alexander the Great, like Ptolemy or Aristovoulos. Still, Plutarch felt the need to include the founder of the city-state of Athens. When you study or write about rhe Byzantine history don’t you mention Constantine? It is part of the byzantine history, the creation of Constantinople upon Byzantium. Similarly Plutarch felt the need to write about the guy that created the state of Athens.

希腊人也不例外，当普鲁塔克坐下来为最著名的希腊和罗马人写传记时，他掌握了大量的线索，而且对其中的大部分相当有把握，因为他们是那个时代的人物，他们那个时代写作已经很普遍，他还可以去查找原始的资料。例如，有关于亚历山大大帝的原始资料来源，可以去托勒密王朝（Ptolemy）或阿塔罗斯王朝（Aristovoulos）的资料寻找。尽管如此，普鲁塔克还是觉得有必要包括雅典城邦的创始人。当你研究或写拜占庭历史时，少不了君士坦丁对吧？这是拜占庭历史的一部分，是他建立了拜占庭的君士坦丁堡；同样，普鲁塔克也觉得有必要写一写这个创建了雅典的人。
（译注：普鲁塔克，约公元46年-120年）罗马帝国时代的希腊作家，哲学家，历史学家，以《比较列传》（又称《希腊罗马名人传》或《希腊罗马英豪列传》）一书闻名后世。他的作品在文艺复兴时期大受欢迎，莎士比亚不少剧作都取材于他的记载。托勒密王朝（Ptolemy）或阿塔罗斯王朝（Aristovoulos）是亚历山大帝国崩溃后，希腊军阀建立的。）

Theseus (depicted above defeating a centaur)

忒修斯(如上所述击败了一个半人马)

when describing the history of Sicily and its people:
“Oldest of all were the Cyclopes and Laestrygones who are said to have dwelt in a district of the island, but who they were, whence they came, or whither they went, I cannot tell. We must be content with the legends of the poets, and every one must be left to form his own opinion.”

在描述西西里及其人民的历史时:
“最古老的是独眼巨人和莱斯特里戈涅斯，据说他们住在岛上的一个地区，但他们是谁，他们从哪里来，或到哪里去，我不知道；我们只能跟随诗人的传说，但必须让每个人都形成自己的观点。”

Although he thinks the existence and the fate of Cyclopes is questionable, he doesn’t seem to question the colonization by Trojans and the fall of Troy:
“After the capture of Troy, some Trojans who had escaped from the Achaeans came in ships to Sicily”

虽然他认为独眼巨人的存在和其命运值得怀疑，但他似乎并不质疑特洛伊人的殖民统治和特洛伊的陷落:
特洛伊被攻占后，一些从亚契亚逃走的特洛伊人乘船来到西西里”

Now, here’s the thing. There was no Bible for ancient Greek religion. Most people learned myths from songs and poems such as The Iliad and the Odyssey. But these weren’t religious books. Their creators are mentioned, as I quoted, being “poets” and “fabulists”. So, Plutarch, Thucydides etc would accept that there was a Theseus that became king, fought bandits, and for the independence of Athens, that there was a camapgin against Troy that ended up with its fall and refugees settling in colonies in Italy. But they seem unable to really believe or convince their readers that there was a Minotaur or a Centaur involved in these stories really.

原因在于古希腊宗教没有圣经这样的经典，大多数人从歌曲和诗歌中了解神话，如《伊利亚特》和《奥德赛》。但是这些都不是宗教书籍；正如我所引用的，他们的创造者被称为“诗人”和“寓言家”。因此，普鲁塔克、修昔底德等人会接受这样一个事实：有一个叫忒修斯的人成为了国王，与土匪作战，为了雅典的独立，发动了一场反对特洛伊的战役，以特洛伊的沦陷和难民在意大利的殖民地定居而告终。但他们似乎无法真正相信或说服他们的读者，因为在这些故事中真的有牛头怪或半人马。

That the myths were artistic creation of poets . This was an ongoing process. There was a continuous creation of new theatrical plays based on mythological figures but each time the writer, be it Sophocles, Aeschylus or Eurypides, who make new story changing some things though still based on events that people generally accepted as real. People did thing that king of Mycenae Agamemnon was the leader of a successful campaign against Troy and that he had a son etc but the details were added by the writer. Same thing with Oedipus. He was a king of Thebes etc. There may have not really be a Sphinx. But the people did believe there was an Oedipus.

神话是诗人和寓言家的艺术创造，这是一个持续的过程，基于神话人物的原创戏剧不断出现，但每次作家们，无论是索福克勒斯、埃斯库罗斯还是欧里庇得斯，都会改变一些事情，但仍然基于人们普遍接受的真实事件。人们确实认为迈锡尼国王阿伽门农是一次成功的反特洛伊战役的领导者，他有一个儿子等等，但是细节是作者添加的。俄狄浦斯也一样。他是底比斯等地的国王，狮身人面可能不是真的，但是人们确实相信有俄狄浦斯。
（译注：埃斯库罗斯（Αἰσχύλος）公元前525年出生于希腊阿提卡的埃琉西斯。于公元前456年去世。他是古希腊悲剧诗人，是古希腊最伟大的悲剧作家之一，有“悲剧之父”、“有强烈倾向的诗人”的美誉。代表作有《被缚的普罗米修斯》、《阿伽门农》、《善好者》（或称《复仇女神》）等，青年时期在希庇亚斯的暴政下度过，希波战争期间参加过反抗波斯帝国的马拉松战役和萨拉米斯战役，热爱祖国，拥护民主制。他的一生很传奇，却死得很让人无语，因为他被一只从高空落下的乌龟砸死的。
索福克勒斯，是雅典三大悲剧作家之一，他既相信神和命运的无上威力，又要求人们具有独立自主的精神，并对自己的行为负责，这是雅典民主政治繁荣时期思想意识的特征。他根据他的理想来塑造人物形象，即使处在命运的掌握之中，也不丧失其独立自主的坚强性格。和埃斯库罗斯不同，索福克勒斯认为命运不再是具体的神，而是一种抽象的概念。
欧里庇得斯（公元前480年—前406年）与埃斯库罗斯和索福克勒斯并称为希腊三大悲剧大师，他一生共创作了九十多部作品，保留的有十八部。古希腊“舞台上的哲学家”就是指欧里庇得斯。
俄狄浦斯，是欧洲文学史上典型的命运悲剧人物。是希腊神话中忒拜（Thebe）的国王拉伊俄斯（Laius）和王后约卡斯塔（Jocasta）的儿子，他在不知情的情况下，杀死了自己的父亲并娶了自己的母亲。狮身人面兽是女妖，是希腊神界女王派来出谜语拦路的，结果被俄狄浦斯答了出来，狮身人面女妖羞愧而死。）

Or an Agamemnon.

阿伽门农。
（译注：阿伽门农（希腊文：Ἀγαμέμνων；意为“坚定不移”），古希腊神话中的迈锡尼国王，特洛伊战争中的希腊联军统帅，领导联军攻克特洛伊城，取得胜利。战争结束后，他回到家乡，然而他的妻子克吕泰涅斯特拉对于阿伽门农在出征时因得罪狩猎女神阿耳忒弥斯而以长女伊菲革涅亚献祭之事怀恨在心，便与情人埃癸斯托斯一起谋害了他。）

You see the ancient Greeks regarded mythology as a part of their history, not only because it basically was just that, with some added fantasy elements, but also it gave them some rights. The Spartan families claimed they came form the blood of Heracles and thus were superior. Similarly, the same claim was made famous by the Macedonian kings. When Alexander the Great landed in Anatolia, near Troy he was claiming the right coming from his mother’s bloodline, that of Achilleus.

古希腊人将神话视为他们历史的一部分，神话不仅只是神话，它加上了一些奇幻元素，还因为神话赋予了他们一些权利，如斯巴达家人称他们来自赫拉克剌斯安大力神的血脉，因此他们在血统上是优越的。同样，马其顿国王也提出了同样的主张。当亚历山大大帝在特洛伊附近的安纳托利亚半岛登陆时，他声称自己因为母亲一方的阿奇勒斯的血统，他拥有这里的统治权。
译注：赫拉克勒斯（古希腊语：Ἡρακλῆς、现代希腊语：Iraklis、英语：Heracles，又译赫拉克里斯、赫拉克剌斯、海格力斯、海克力士），是古希腊神话中的著名英雄，一位半神。出生后最初命名为阿尔喀得斯（Ἀλκείδης，Alcides）。神王宙斯与阿尔克墨涅之子，天生力大无穷。

————
Paul Hume
Why do so many Americans (among others) regard the Judaeo-Christian myth as part of theirs?
Your sense of the sacred informs how you view the world around you.

为什么如此多的美国人(以及其他人)认为犹太-基督教神话是他们的一部分？
你的神圣感会影响你对周围世界的看法。

George Nova
What today is called Mythology, was part of history to the Greeks 2000+ years ago.
The only reason it is called Mythology today is because today it is not believed, we see it as made up stories, thus it is called mythology.

今天所谓的神话，对2000多年前的希腊人来说是历史的一部分。
今天它被称为神话的唯一原因是因为今天它不再被相信，我们认为它是编造的故事，因此它被称为神话。

—————
Eric Lowe
Christians are so used to talking about religion in terms of faith that we often forget how much philosophical work is built into that. Even non-Christians from Christian cultures talk about religions as if they’re all faiths, as if Wicca were a faith or neopaganism is a faith, which is … sort of blithely offensive to the non-Christians I respect most.

基督徒是如此习惯于从信仰的角度来谈论宗教，以至于我们通常忘记了其中有多少哲学著作。即使是来自基督教文化的非基督徒也谈论宗教，好像他们都是信仰，他们谈论这些，就觉得他们是威卡教是一种信仰或者新教主义的信徒，这对我最尊敬的非基督徒来说，这是一种愉快的冒犯。

Our god exists, as an independent entity that would exist even if nobody believed in him or had ever heard of him. He isn’t a mental construct or a metaphor or a personification.
We trust our god to look out for us on the terms laid out in our religious doctrine.
Corollary to #2, we choose our god to be our god, to the exclusion of all other gods that may exist.

当基督徒谈论信仰时，我们倾向于指以下的一些情况:
1，我们的上帝是存在的，作为一个独立的实体，即使没有人相信他或听说过他，他也会存在。他不是一个精神上的构造，不是一个隐喻，也不是一个拟人化的形象。
2，我们相信我们的上帝会按照我们宗教教义中规定的条款来照顾我们。
3，第二个推论，我们选择我们的上帝作为我们的神，排除所有其他可能存在的上帝。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

It’s not like you can’t do these things as a member of a non-Abrahamic religion, but Christianity - especially Protestant Christianity - obsesses over them to a degree that is truly weird by the standards of human religion generally.
I think if you asked your typical ancient Greek whether the gods were independent entities or just metaphorical constructs they’d tell you that they were independent entities. Likewise, I think if you asked whether they trusted the gods to look after them according to the cosmic bargain described in Greek religious beliefs, they’d tell you that of course they did.
They probably wouldn’t understand why any of that was important to you. But they’d answer in the affirmative.
When you asked them whether they had made a personal commitment to any of the gods, or even to the gods collectively, I think they’d mostly be confused.

这并不是说作为非亚伯拉罕宗教的一员，你不能做这些事情，但基督教，尤其是新教，对它们的迷恋程度，以人类宗教的标准来看，确实很奇怪。
我认为，如果你问典型的古希腊人，问神是独立的实体还是仅仅是隐喻性的构造，他们会告诉你他们是独立的实体。同样，我认为如果你问他们是否相信诸神；会根据希腊宗教信仰中描述的宇宙契约来照顾他们，他们会告诉你他们当然相信。
他们可能不会理解为什么问这些对你很重要；但他们会给出肯定的回答。
当你问他们是否对只忠诚于一个神，或者甚至所有的神他们都信仰，我想他们大多会感到困惑。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

People often talk about the difference between orthodox and orthopraxic religions, but they aren’t mutually exclusive. The very dichotomy smacks of Christianity. It isn’t that the ancient Greeks didn’t believe in their gods, by which I mean that most of them likely believed that their gods existed and trusted them to keep their end of the cosmic bargain. It’s just that nobody much cared whether they believed or not.
It’s caring about belief that is so weird. Christianity cares a great deal whether you do the thing while “believing” in its god; ancient Greek religion was perfectly content for you to believe whatever you pleased so long as you did the correct religious actions.The idea that religion is a private matter of conscience is also a highly Christian way to think about it.
So did the ancient Greeks really believe in their gods? Yeah, most of them probably did. But I don’t think they viewed that belief or unbelief to be especially cosmically or morally or theologically significant.

人们经常谈论正统宗教和正信宗教的区别，但它们并不相互排斥；这种二分法带有基督教的特点。这并不是说古希腊人不相信他们的神，我的意思是，他们中的大多数人可能相信他们的神存在，并相信他们会遵守他们的宇宙协议；只是没人在乎他们信不信。
关心他人的信仰真的很奇怪。基督教非常关心你是否在“相信”上帝的情况下做某事；来判断你是否做了正确的宗教行为，古希腊宗教之中，你完全可以自由的相信任何你喜欢的东西。宗教是个人内心的私人问题，这也是一种慈善友好的的思考方式。
那么古希腊人真的相信他们的神吗？是啊，他们中的大多数可能都是。但我不认为他们认为信或不信有特别的普遍性、道德或神学意义。

Varun Raghav
Most practising Hindus would say they “believe” in their Hindus and believe “God will deliver Justice”, but loss of belief is not a serious issue. For example, though my Mother is an Orthodox Hindu and me being an agnostic cultural Hindu, this has never been an issue between us. She is as disappointed in me for not believing as she is with for me for being careless with stuff. Nothing like stories of ex-Christians /Muslims who had to cut off family ties for disbelieving. She just believes, the rituals she does and the temple visits she goes will protect me.
The attitude of Eastern religions in general is join our club/get some benefits for you and your loved ones. Christianity/Islam is like join our club, else we will make sure you will land up in hell for eternity.

大多数信奉印度教的人会说他们“相信”印度教，相信“神会维护正义”，但信仰的丧失并不是一个严重的问题。例如，虽然我的母亲是传统印度教徒，而我是不可知论的文化印度教徒，但这从来不会造成我们之间有啥矛盾。她对我不相信感到失望，对我粗心大意感到失望。但是这没有基督教徒/穆斯林的故事那样可怕，他们因为不信不得不与家庭断绝关系。我母亲只是相信，她所做的仪式和她去的寺庙祈祷，可以保护我。
东方宗教的态度通常是加入我们的俱乐部/为你和你爱的人获得一些利益。基督教/伊斯兰教就像是加入我们的俱乐部吧，不然我们会让你永远下地狱。

——————
Doug Freyburger
Did the Greeks really believe in their gods?
Before Christianity no religion demanded belief. Both belief and disbelief were common but few cared and it didn’t matter in any official way.
Other than Christianity and its descendants, religion is about practice not belief. Their ancients practiced, which did not require belief.

希腊人真的相信他们的神吗？
在基督教之前，没有宗教要求他们信仰神。相信神的和不相信的都很常见，很少有人在乎这些，这在任何官方层面也都无关紧要。
除了基督教和它的后代们，对于基督徒来说宗教是关于实践而不是信仰。但他们的古人修行，不需要信仰。

——————
Loren Petrich
Of the more educated ones, some philosophers had an attitude that may seem curious to many of us. They were very skeptical about the gods, but they nevertheless thought that one ought to worship them.
Bertrand Russell in his “History of Western Philosophy” notes about Protagoras (486 - 411 BCE) that he wrote a book “On the Gods” which he started with "With regard to the gods, I cannot feel sure either that they are or that they are not, nor what they are like in figure; for there are many things that hinder sure knowledge, the obscurity of the subject and the shortness of human life." However, he thought that these entities ought to be worship. Bertrand Russell explains: “The disbelief in obxtive truth makes the majority, for practical purposes, the arbiters as to what to believe. Hence Protagoras was led to a defence of law and convention and traditional morality. While, as we saw, he did not know whether the gods existed, he was sure they ought to be worshipped. This point of view is obviously the right one for a man whose theoretical scepticism is thoroughgoing and logical.”
He also notes that a certain Sextus Empiricus (~160 CE - ~210 CE) wrote a book called “Arguments against Belief in a God”, which he started with "We sceptics follow in practice the way of the world, but without holding any opinion about it. We speak of the Gods as existing and offer worship to the Gods and say that they exercise providence, but in saying this we express no belief, and avoid the rashness of the dogmatisers." He then continued with arguments like the argument from evil.

在受过更多教育的人当中，一些哲学家的态度对我们许多人来说可能很奇怪。他们非常怀疑神，但他们仍然认为应该崇拜他们。
伯特兰·罗素在他的“西方哲学史”中提到普罗泰戈拉(公元前486 - 411年)，他写了一本书“论神”，他以“关于神，我不能确定他们存不存在，也不知道他们的形象是啥；因为学科的模糊性，人类生命的短暂和许多事情阻碍了可靠的知识。”然而，他认为这些实体应当受到崇拜。伯特兰·罗素解释说:“出于实际目的，对客观真理的不信任使得大多数人成为该相信什么的仲裁者。因此，普罗泰戈拉被引导去捍卫法律、习俗和传统道德。虽然，正如我们所看到的，他不知道神是否存在，但他确信他们应该被崇拜。对于一个理论怀疑是彻底的、合乎逻辑的人来说，这种观点显然是正确的。”
他还注意到，某位叫塞克斯特斯·恩皮里库斯（约公元160年——约公元210年 )的人写了一本名为《反对信仰上帝的论据》的书，他以“我们怀疑论者在实践中遵循世界的方式，但不对它持有任何意见”开始。我们说众神是存在的，崇拜众神，说他们实行天意，但在这样说的时候，并不表示我们信仰他们，也避免了教条主义者的鲁莽。”
（译注：伯特兰·阿瑟·威廉·罗素（Bertrand Arthur William Russell，1872年5月18日—1970年2月2日），英国哲学家、数学家、逻辑学家、历史学家、文学家，分析哲学的主要创始人，世界和平运动的倡导者和组织者，主要作品有《西方哲学史》《哲学问题》《心的分析》《物的分析》等。
普罗泰戈拉（Protagoras，约公元前490或480年—前420或410年） 公元前5世纪希腊城邦民主政治高度发展，普罗泰戈拉是智者派的主要代表人物。他主张“人是万物的尺度”。普罗泰戈拉大约活了70岁。他出生在阿布德拉城，多次来到当时希腊奴隶主民主制的中心雅典，与民主派政治家伯里克利结为挚友，曾为意大利南部的雅典殖民地图里城制定过法典。一生旅居各地，收徒传授修辞和论辩知识，是当时最受人尊敬的“智者”。）

——————
Staroslav
The ancient Greeks were polytheistic, which means not only that they believed in many gods, they believed in all the gods. In those times that was true of most cultures. The Romans actually considered Jews and Christians to be atheists. We all know they believe in a god. So why would they be atheists? Because they only believed in that one god, but no others.
The Greeks believed in all the gods, and worshipped many, but while there was what amounts to an officially sanctioned religion, they also had significant religious freedoms. Sure some people could be taken to court for “introducing new gods”, but that was usually politically motivated and accompanied by other charges, such as “corrupting youth”.

古希腊人是多神论者，这意味着他们不仅相信许多神，他们相信所有的神。在那个时代，大多数文化都是如此。罗马人实际上认为犹太人和基督徒是无神论者；但我们都知道他们相信上帝。那么他们为什么会是无神论者呢？因为他们只相信一个神，而不相信其他神。
希腊人相信所有的神，崇拜许多神，但是尽管有官方认可的宗教，他们也有很大的宗教自由。当然，有些人可能会因“引进新神”而被送上法庭，但这通常是出于政治动机，并伴随着其他指控，如“腐蚀年轻人”之类的罪名。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

This freedom meant that some Greeks worshiped Zeus and Hera and the other Olympians, some worshipped the Great Mother (an import from what is now the Middle-East), some were members of mystery cults, and a few were philosophers. One of the earliest philosophers was Heraclitus, who believed there can only be one god, and that one god is perfect. Heraclitus criticised Homer for depicting the many anthropomorphic gods. How can divine beings have such earthly faults?! They can’t so they must not exist. Greeks of his time listened, shook their heads with polite disapproval, much like the English might in a similar situation, and went about their business.

这种自由意味着一些希腊人崇拜宙斯、赫拉和其他奥林匹斯山的神，一些人崇拜伟大的女神(从中东传来的)，一些人是神秘教派的成员，还有一些人是哲学家。最早的哲学家之一是赫拉克利特，他相信只有一个神，而且这个唯一的神是完美的。赫拉克利特批评荷马描绘了许多拟人化的神。因为神圣的存在怎么会有这样的尘世俗人一般的过错？！他们不应该会有，所以他们一定不存在。他那个时代的希腊人听了他的言论，只是礼貌地不赞同地摇摇头，就像英国人在类似情况下可能做的那样，然后继续他们的生意。

Thus gods spread over the ancient world, and many gods travelled to strange and distant places. The number of divine beings worshipped by the Greeks grew, like all other aspects of culture grow with exposure to other cultures.
And one day, a Jewish fella came to Athens and started preaching about a new god. There was nothing particularly strange about it, a careful analysis reveals he didn’t say anything Athenians didn’t hear before in one form of another. Yet for some reason this one man much upset some people with his teachings, so he was brought before the authorities to explain himself. It seemed like this might be yet another instance of “introducing new gods and corrupting youth”, but the man was well versed in history, trained in rhetoric of the school of Cynics in Tarsus. And thus he knew well how such things were wont to go in Athens. He argued that he saw a shrine in Athens, dedicated to an “unknown god” and was only trying to tell the people more about this god they already acknowledged. He was acquitted and thus the gate was opened to Christianity in Greece.

因此，神在古代世界传播，许多神被传播到陌生和遥远的地方；所以希腊人崇拜的神的数量也在增长，就像文化的其他方面随着接触其他文化而增长一样。有一天，一个犹太人来到雅典，开始宣扬一个新的神，和往常一样，没有什么特别奇怪的，但仔细分析后发现，他宣扬的那些东西对于雅典人来说也是和往常那些各种一样差不多的，没什么大不了的。然而，由于某种原因，这个人用他的教义惹恼了一些人，所以他被带到当局面前解释。这似乎是另一个“引进新神和腐蚀年轻人”的例子，但是这个人精通历史，受过塔尔苏斯犬儒学派的修辞训练。因此他很清楚这样的事情在雅典应该如何运作。他争辩说，他在雅典看到了一个神殿，供奉着一个“不知名的神”，他只是想告诉人们更多关于这个他们已经承认的神的事情。他被宣告无罪，因此希腊的基督教大门被打开了。

原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处