新西兰和澳大利亚应该成为一个国家吗?
Should New Zealand and Australia become one country?
译文简介
不。新西兰甚至不在雷达上。没人谈论它，也没人想要它。
正文翻译
Should New Zealand and Australia become one country?
新西兰和澳大利亚应该成为一个国家吗?
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No. It is not even on the radar. Nobody talks about it and nobody wants it.
The two countries have much in common and have a very close relationship at every level, but that doesn’t equate to future unification.
不。新西兰甚至不在雷达上。没人谈论它，也没人想要它。
这两个国家有很多共同点，在每个层面都有非常密切的关系，但这并不等于未来的统一。
Sure it’s possible, in the same way Mexico and Canada could become one country. Those two are about the same distance apart as NZ and Australia. I know there are not other sizeable land masses in the South Pacific but don’t be fooled, the two countries are around 2000km apart from eachother.
We have a shared colonial history but we have different economies, politics, foreign policy and race relations. I can’t see why either country would want to amalgamate. What’s in it for ether of them?
当然这是可能的，以同样的方式，墨西哥和加拿大可以成为一个国家。这两个国家之间的距离相当于新西兰和澳大利亚之间的距离。我知道南太平洋没有其他相当大的陆地块，但不要被愚弄了，这两个国家相距大约2000公里。
我们有共同的殖民历史，但我们有不同的经济、政治、外交政策和种族关系。我看不出这两个国家为什么要合并。这对他们有什么好处?
Image source: Map goes viral as Australians demand to be annexed by New Zealand
Australians outnumber New Zealanders by a factor of 5:1 meaning Australia would wind up dictating New Zealand policy. In order to protect NZ’s interests, we’d need to have an equal say and hand in what happened… meaning we’d effectively have a bigger say in Australian policy than our numbers warranted.
If you’re going to go through the hassle of uniting, there really has to be clear cut opportunities that benefit both countries. What extra benefits would uniting bring?
(*Australian crickets chirping… Cheerp… Ozzy OY!)
(*New Zealand crickets chirping… Churp… churp.)
The vast majority of New Zealanders and Australians can migrate and work in both countries already - visas are not required for citizens of both countries. We all get to take the “Australian/New Zealand Citizen” passport holder lane at the airports. (Whooptidoo! - the E-passport readers are quicker anyway).
There’s no real benefit to us but there would be a lot of bureaucracy, issues to solve and costs.
澳大利亚人和新西兰人比例是5比1，这意味着澳大利亚最终将决定新西兰的政策。为了保护新西兰的利益，我们需要有平等的发言权，我们需要对发生的事情有发言权，这意味着我们在澳大利亚的政策上有更大的发言权。
如果你要经历统一的麻烦，必须有明确的机会，需要对两国都有利。统一会带来什么额外的好处?
绝大多数新西兰人和澳大利亚人已经可以移民和在两国工作了——两国公民都不需要签证。我们都可以在机场过“澳大利亚/新西兰公民”护照持有人通道。
统一对我们没有真正的好处，反倒会有很多官僚主义、需要解决的问题和成本。
I think we actually should break Australia up into New Zealand sized countries. I’m not feeling the whole “united Australia” thing. What a weird unsightly mass, to have a whole continent as a country… it’s absurd.
我认为我们应该把澳大利亚分成新西兰大小的国家。我对"联合澳大利亚"没什么感觉。
一个国家拥有一整片大陆，这是多么奇怪而丑陋的群体啊，太荒谬了。
Interesting concept - I’mma let you Aussies sort that one out amongst yourselves…
有趣的概念，我要让你们澳大利亚人自己解决这个问题……
Of course, Australia and New Zealand were once one colony, and then separate colonies, before the Australian one confederated in 1901.
当然，在1901年澳大利亚结成联盟之前，澳大利亚和新西兰曾经是一个殖民地，然后是两个独立的殖民地。
I literally had this conversation with a Kiwi this week.
Me (Aussie): “I just don’t understand why Australia and New Zealand don’t just join up”
Ross: “We are actually quite different as countries”
Me: Laughing “You’re no different than one of our states is from another”
Ross: “that’s the real problem, we would just be a state of Australia.”
New Zealand and Australia would make a wonderful partnership. It will never happen.
When each of the states of Australia were discussing federations in the 1890′s New Zealand was a major part of that process. New Zealand and Western Australia were both unhappy about the number of seats they would get in Federal Parliament. Cut a long story short, WA negotiated and joined, NZ didn’t.
Since that point billions of dollars have been wasted in duplication. That said on the most important things, national defence we have walked arm in arm.
So could it ever happen?
Cynically, no.
这周我真的和一个新西兰人有过这样的对话。
我(澳大利亚人)：我只是不明白为什么澳大利亚和新西兰不直接合并。
罗斯：作为国家，我们其实很不一样。
我笑着说：你们和我们的一个州和另一个州没什么区别。
罗斯：这才是真正的问题，我们会成为澳大利亚的一个州。
新西兰和澳大利亚将有很好的伙伴关系，但合并永远不会发生。
20世纪90年代，当澳大利亚各州都在讨论联邦时，新西兰是这个过程中的重要组成部分。新西兰和西澳大利亚州都对自己将在联邦议会中获得的席位数量感到不满。长话短说，西澳谈判并加入，新西兰没有。
从那时起，数十亿美元被浪费在重复建设上。也就是说在最重要的事情上——国防上的浪费。那么，合并会发生吗?具有嘲讽意味的是，不会。
There is a shared sense of culture and heritage certainly, but I think our economies and political sensibilities are just too different, the likes of Cory Bernardi, Pauline Hanson and Tony Abbott are relative extremists by New Zealand standards. There’s also a large gulf in the way indigenous people are treated in each respective country that would be too large to ignore, Maori have had guaranteed parliamentary representation for over 100 years, while Aborigines have only legally been considered humans for just 50 years.
我们当然有共同的文化和传统，但我认为我们的经济和政治敏感性太不一样了，以新西兰的标准来看，像科里·贝尔纳迪、波林·汉森和托尼·阿博特这样的人相对来说是极端分子。
各自国家对待土著人民的方式也存在巨大的鸿沟，太大了以至于不能忽视，毛利人已经保证了100多年的议会代表权，而澳大利亚土著居民在法律上被认为是人类只有50年。
While there are certainly pros and cons of joining Australia, it’s not just a fear campaign that would prevent NZ from joining, it’s one of pride our place in the world. Saying we’ve wasted billions of dollars in “duplication” is an oversimplification, and quite patronising. That money has been spent to promote NZ as a standalone entity, the idea of sending money and a handful of MPs and senators to Canberra is not appealing and never will be.
I can understand the Australian view that you’d be adding to your country, but for us, we’d be absorbed. We’d become part of Australia, being Australian is not part of us. Having our own sovereign government that acts solely in our interests is how we want to do it, billions of dollars of duplication as you call it, is spent developing a political, social and economic climate of our own, yes you are richer, but we are happier and more easy going. Your politics are something we want no part of, your country has more corruption, and your foreign policy is too closely tied to that of the US. As a small state, we would feel powerless to put a dent in that.
Treatment of indigenous people is also a factor, you guys haven’t treated yours well. Your apologies have not gone as far, no we are not perfect, but joining Australia is not something that the first residents of Aotearoa would want.
We totally understand why you want to have us, and we love you guys. You’re our brothers, there is nobody closer. But recognise that we’re happy as we are, and we’re happy to have you guys next to us.
虽然加入澳大利亚有赞成有反对，但这不仅仅是一种恐惧，它是新西兰在世界上的骄傲之一。说我们在“重复”浪费了数十亿美元是一种过度简化，而且相当傲慢。这笔钱被用来推动新西兰成为一个独立的实体，而把资金和一些议员和参议员送到堪培拉的想法不具吸引力，而且永远不会有吸引力。
我能理解澳大利亚人的看法，你会为你的国家增光添彩，但对我们来说，我们会被吸收。我们会成为澳大利亚的一部分，但澳大利亚人的身份认同并不属于我们。拥有我们自己的主权政府，只为我们的利益行事，这是我们想要的，数十亿美元的重复，正如你们所说，是在发展我们自己的政治、社会和经济气候，是的，你们更富有，但我们更快乐，更容易相处。
我们不想参与你们的政治，你们的国家有更多的腐败，你们的外交政策与美国的联系太紧密了。作为一个小国，我们会感到无力在这方面有所作为。
对待土著居民也是一个因素，你们没有善待你们的人。你的道歉还不够，不，我们并不完美，但加入澳大利亚不是第一批奥特亚罗瓦居民想要的。
我们完全理解你们为什么想要我们，我们爱你们。你们是我们的兄弟，没人比你们更亲近了。但请承认，我们是快乐的，我们很高兴有你们在我们身边。
It would be like Canada becoming part of USA
这就像让加拿大成为美国的一部分。
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Charles, ‘We’d become part of Australia, being Australian is not part of us.’
Being part of you was once Australian! Why do New Zealander’s continue to ignore their NSW, Australian British history?
New South Wales was once and still is part of Australia, as was New Zealand.
The Colony of NSW from 1788 included most of New Zealand as this map above shows.
NZ was still part of NSW in 1810 as shown on the map of the Colony of NSW.
We allowed you to break away from NSW and become your own New Zealand Colony.
“我们成为了澳大利亚的一部分，但澳大利亚人的身份不是我们的一部分。”
你的一部分曾经是澳大利亚的！为什么新西兰人继续忽视他们的新南威尔士州、澳大利亚和英国的历史?
新南威尔士州曾经是，现在仍然是澳大利亚的一部分，新西兰也是。如上图所示，1788年的新南威尔士州殖民地包括了新西兰的大部分地区。
从新南威尔士州殖民地地图上可以看出，1810年，新西兰仍然是新南威尔士州的一部分。
我们允许你们脱离新南威尔士州，成立你们自己的新西兰殖民地。
Nice maps, but that was long before a New Zealand identity took shape. I love Australians (with some exceptions) and I love Australia. You guys are the best neighbours and friends a country could hope for. But we are a country, no matter how small. And if you guys are ever in serious trouble from your other neighbours or folks farther afield, I am sure most NZers wouldn’t hesitate to help you out in any way we could.
不错的地图，但那是在新西兰身份形成之前很久的事了。我爱澳大利亚人(有些例外)，我爱澳大利亚。你们是一个国家所能期待的最好的邻居和朋友。但我们是一个国家，不管它有多小。
如果你们遇到了来自其他邻居或更远的邻居的严重麻烦，我相信大多数新西兰人会毫不犹豫地以我们所能提供的任何方式帮助你们。
I am German, have lived in Australia, now live in NZ. People tend to think Australia and NZ are right next to each other, but it’s a 3.5h flight from Sydney to Auckland. There is a lot of water between the two countries, and not just that.
The societies in Australia and NZ are actually quite different. Australia had a White Australia policy well into the 1970s. This virtually blocked immigration from Asia, and internally the country was segregated much like the South Africa and the South of the USA. No Aborigines in White swimming pools, and so on. That past has not been overcome. Members of the Stolen Generation of Aborigines are still alive, and the struggle to even get an apology from the Howard government was epic - and indicative of the Australian mindset.
NZ never had that. Maori people are still disadvantaged in many ways, and often at the lower end of the economic scale, but not in any way close to Aborigines in Australia. NZ has recognized the Treaty of Waitangi, Waitangi Day is a huge thing in NZ, and Te Reo is recognized as the second official language next to English. Maori culture is taken extremely seriously and enjoys great respect. Similar treatment of Aborigines is unimaginable in Australia.
Things have changed even in NZ, but the country is still far more left leaning, valuing equality over personal financial success, having a strong social net, strong labor unxs, and so on.
There is no way Kiwis would give this up to join Australia to gain what?
我是德国人，曾经在澳大利亚生活过，现在住在新西兰。人们往往认为澳大利亚和新西兰紧挨在一起，但实际上从悉尼到奥克兰需要3.5小时的飞行时间。这两个国家之间有很宽的水域，不仅如此。
澳大利亚和新西兰的社会其实很不一样。澳大利亚一直到20世纪70年代都实行白澳政策。这实际上阻止了来自亚洲的移民，该国内部也像南非和美国南部一样实行种族隔离。白人游泳池里没有土著人，等等。这段历史并没有被克服。“被偷走的一代”的土著成员仍然活着，而从霍华德政府那里得到道歉的努力是史诗般的，但也表明了澳大利亚人的心态。
新西兰从来没有这样的经历。毛利人在很多方面仍然处于不利地位，而且往往处于经济规模的低端，但在任何方面都比不上澳大利亚的土著居民（来得糟糕）。新西兰承认了《怀唐伊条约》，怀唐伊日在新西兰意义重大，Te Reo被认为是仅次于英语的第二官方语言。毛利人的文化非常受重视和尊重。类似的待遇在澳大利亚是不可想象的。
即使在新西兰，情况也发生了变化，但这个国家仍然更加左倾，重视平等，而不是个人财务成功，它拥有强大的社会网络，强大的工会等等。
新西兰人不可能放弃这个来加入澳大利亚，图什么?
I think New Zealand restricted Asian immigration nearly as much as Australia did. Both started to loosen these restrictions in the 1970s, and both now have populations that are 12–15% ethnically Asian, so I don't think there is a big difference there. The main effect of the White Australia policy is that Australia was taking Southern European immigrants when New Zealand was taking immigrants from the Pacific Islands.
我认为新西兰对亚洲移民的限制几乎和澳大利亚一样多。两国都在20世纪70年代开始放松这些限制，现在两国都有12-15%的亚裔人口，所以我不认为有很大的区别。
白澳政策的主要影响是，澳大利亚接收南欧移民，而新西兰接收太平洋群岛移民。
The “White Australia Policy” was implemented much earlier than the 1970’s, it was dismantled progressively from late 1960’s in part due to our involvement in the Vietnam War.
Whilst the mentality that gave rise to that policy may never be fully eradicated we do not have a monopoly on racially motivated bias. Not even NZ is totally free of this e.g. see the references list here: Fascism in New Zealand - Wikipedia
“白澳政策”的实施比1970年代早得多，从1960年代后期开始逐步废除，部分原因是我们卷入了越南战争。
虽然导致这一政策的心态可能永远不会被完全根除，但我们并没有垄断种族动机的偏见。甚至新西兰也没有完全摆脱这个问题，链接：《新西兰法西斯主义》——维基
I wrote Australia had the White Australia Policy up until the 1970s. That seems to be in full agreement with what you wrote.
Regarding fascism, hey, I am German. I am well aware that Australia has no monopoly on that. And I wrote that Maori are still disadvantaged in NZ. There is racially motivated bias in NZ even today.
That said, I have experienced Australia as probably the most racially segregated society I have lived in. That was around the turn of the millennium. Australia is a big country, and other people might have different experiences in other parts of Australia, but this is mine.
I find NZ by far the most inclusive society I have lived in. So there is a big difference in my view.
我写道，“直到20世纪70年代，澳大利亚都有白澳政策。”这似乎和你写的完全一致。
关于法西斯主义，嘿，我是德国人。我很清楚，澳大利亚在这方面并非垄断。我写过毛利人在新西兰仍然处于不利地位。即使在今天，新西兰仍然存在种族偏见。
也就是说，我觉得澳大利亚可能是我生活过的种族隔离最严重的社会。那是在千禧年前后。澳大利亚是个大国，其他人在澳大利亚的其他地方可能会有不同的经历，但这是我的经历。
我发现新西兰是迄今为止我所生活过的最包容的社会。所以我的观点有很大的不同。
Haha yes all that is true. I dont believe Aussies would want to give up our less lefty infected lives to join NZ. The things we see with the woman leader are attrocious and a real worry. Bowing to the evil cult is not on for us. We wont give up. Finland and Norway haverealised as well.They have stopped certain migration to their once wonderful countries. By the way does anyone know why refugees dont go back to their homelands where their culture and history and famiIy originates? Maybe we are too good to them in Australia? Yes we are to the detriment of iur native people.
哈哈，是的，这些都是真的。我不相信澳大利亚人会想要接受新西兰左派的生活，就为了合并。我们在这位（新西兰）女领导人身上看到的事情是残暴的，是真正令人担忧的。我们不应该向邪恶邪教低头。我们不会放弃。
芬兰和挪威也意识到了这一点。他们已经停止了向他们曾经美好的国家的某些移民。顺便问一下，有谁知道为什么难民不回到他们的文化、历史和家庭起源的家乡吗? 也许我们在澳大利亚对他们太好了?
是的，我们是在损害你们的原住民。
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Hey, that’s great that you support Aboriginal people and want to return all the darn Europeans back to where they came from. Keep up the good work, mate!
嘿，太好了，看来你支持澳洲原住民，想把所有该死的欧洲人送回他们原来的地方。
再接再厉，伙计！
Australia will never annex New Zealand for one simple reason. If they did then all New Zealanders would become Australian citizens with the rights and responsibilities that accompany that status. This includes the right to stand for office in the Federal Government. None of the major Australian political party’s would be able to get into power unless they were led by a Kiwi because Australian’s have been jealous of New Zealand’s ability to produce political leaders who aren’t totally incompetent or barking mad for some years now so they would automatically cast their votes for ‘The Kiwi’. Australia’s political leaders do not want to do anything that would result in them losing their jobs.
澳大利亚永远不会吞并新西兰，原因很简单。如果他们做到了，那么所有新西兰人都将成为澳大利亚公民，并享有与澳大利亚公民身份相伴随的权利和责任。这包括竞选联邦政府公职的权利。
除非由一个新西兰人领导，否则澳大利亚的主要政党都不可能掌权，因为澳大利亚人嫉妒新西兰有能力培养出不完全无能或不疯狂的政治领导人，这已经有好几年了。所以他们会自动投票给“新西兰人”。澳大利亚的政治领导人不希望做任何会导致他们失业的事情。
No. As a Maori from NZ living in Perth, Australia, the cultural effects would be hell! The cultural issues in both countries remain unstable and the thought alone of joining the 2 is blowing my mind.
I also personally believe that the Aboriginal people of Australia have had enough struggle with persecution, loss of land and rights as it is. Would their voice be considered if such a decision was made? I consider Aboriginal people to be my elders and respectfully decline becoming an addition to their land.
As a Maori, also no thank you, we continue to fight for our identity at home as it is and blending us with Australia because some people think it should happen is the dumbest reason ever!
不。作为一个生活在澳大利亚珀斯的新西兰毛利人，（两国合并的）文化影响将是地狱！两国的文化问题仍然不稳定，光是加入这两个国家的想法就让我大吃一惊。
我个人也认为，澳大利亚的原住民已经与迫害、失去土地和权利作了足够多的斗争。如果做出这样的决定，他们的声音会被考虑吗?我认为澳大利亚土著居民是我的长辈，他们衰落了，成为他们土地上的附属物。
作为一个毛利人，也不谢谢你，我们继续在国内为我们的身份而战。把我们和澳大利亚融合在一起，因为有些人认为这应该发生，这是有史以来最愚蠢的理由！
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IMO, No…
I don’t believe the majority of either population wants it, any more than Canada would want to join the USA
There is a distance (with a large body of ocean in the middle) of 2,325 km from Canberra to Wellington
We have different forms of government, and electoral choices, as well as legislature
There are many policies/beliefs/attitudes that only one country holds
We also have very different climatic and topographical conditions
Our top income earners are very disparate - they have ore and mineral wealth, we have agriculture and tourism
NZ (and probably Australia) are both very individualised and self-sufficient countries with duplicates of all the major and many of the minor infrastuctures, and have different identities in the wider world (despite the OP not seeming to realise this - see: Canada vs USA)
We have different indigenous peoples, and a different approach to them
There are probably many more reasons, but I think my first one is really the main one…!
Why don’t you go and practise on Portugal and Spain, or Northern Ireland and Ireland first…? Good luck with the religious aspect of that…8-!
在我看来，不应该：
我不相信这两个国家的大多数人都想要，就像加拿大不想加入美国一样；
从堪培拉到惠灵顿有2325公里的距离(中间是大片的海洋)；
我们有不同形式的政府、选举和立法机构；
有许多政策/信念/态度只有一个国家持有；
我们也有非常不同的气候和地形条件；
我们的高收入产业差别很大——他们有矿石和矿产财富，我们有农业和旅游业；
新西兰(可能还有澳大利亚)都是非常个性化和自给自足的国家，所有主要的和许多次要的基础设施都完全一样，但在更广泛的世界中有各自不同的身份(参见:加拿大vs美国)；
我们有不同的原住民，各自对待他们的方式也不同；
可能有更多的原因，但我认为我的第一个原因是最主要的……
你为什么不先去葡萄牙和西班牙练习下如何合并，或者先去北爱尔兰和爱尔兰?祝你好运！