QA：最惨的军事失败是哪一场?
What was the worst military defeat?
译文简介
没有规定平民伤亡要超过军人伤亡的4倍。伤亡是基于间接因素，而不是军人和平民死亡之间的固有数学关系。与在另一个国家的沙漠中与伊拉克军队作战相比，对隐藏在平民中的叛乱分子的长期控制将导致不同比例的战斗人员与平民死亡。即使是在城市地区的行动，也可能有很大不同的比例，这取决于是否进行了成功的疏散。
正文翻译
Vladislav Antonov
I can’t say that it’s THE WORST military defeat, but personally for my family - it is.
My great grand-father, just like all men at that time, was fighting against German invaders. He never returned from war, and there were no news or any documents about him. I decided to investigate the case to figure what happened to him.
After researching scanned archives, I was finally able to find some information about him. I figured that he was killed in November 1943 during failed offensive operation called “Orshanskaya offensive operation”. I became more curios and I decided to read more archive materials about this battle.
我不能说这是“最惨”的军事失败，但对我的家人来说，的确是。
我的曾祖父，就像当时所有的人一样，在抗击德国侵略者。他再也没有从战场上回来，也没有关于他的任何消息或文件。我决定调查这个情况，弄清楚他到底怎么了。
在研究了扫描的档案后，我终于找到了一些关于他的信息。我估计他是在1943年11月的一次失败的名为“奥尔尚斯卡亚进攻行动”中牺牲的。我变得越来越好奇，我决定阅读更多关于这场战斗的档案材料。
I can’t say that it’s THE WORST military defeat, but personally for my family - it is.
My great grand-father, just like all men at that time, was fighting against German invaders. He never returned from war, and there were no news or any documents about him. I decided to investigate the case to figure what happened to him.
After researching scanned archives, I was finally able to find some information about him. I figured that he was killed in November 1943 during failed offensive operation called “Orshanskaya offensive operation”. I became more curios and I decided to read more archive materials about this battle.
我不能说这是“最惨”的军事失败，但对我的家人来说，的确是。
我的曾祖父，就像当时所有的人一样，在抗击德国侵略者。他再也没有从战场上回来，也没有关于他的任何消息或文件。我决定调查这个情况，弄清楚他到底怎么了。
在研究了扫描的档案后，我终于找到了一些关于他的信息。我估计他是在1943年11月的一次失败的名为“奥尔尚斯卡亚进攻行动”中牺牲的。我变得越来越好奇，我决定阅读更多关于这场战斗的档案材料。
State Defence Committee of USSR - Comission Report M-715, 11-04-1944.
Quotes:
《1944年11月4日苏联国防委员会——M-715任务报告》节选：
“In the conducted operations, our artillery did not supress the enemy's artillery, despite the concentration in large quantities and superiority over the enemy. It did not happen neither during an artillery barrage, nor during the battle. Often artillery targeted an empty sectors, did not hear infantry requests, and lost communication with infantry units. As a result, even the friendly forces were barraged. Infantry was attacking the unsupressed enemy positions and as the result suffered huge losses and did not advance. The work of our artillery, especially in the counter artillery duel part, was insufficient during all the stages of combat engagement”
“Contrary to the instructions of the HQ, which prohibited the use of special units as ordinary infantry in battle, gen. Gordov often used reconnaissance, chemical and sappers units in ordinary infantry operations.”
Instead of careful artillery and operation planning, Gordov sought to penetrate the enemy’s defenses with manpower. This is evidenced by the losses suffered by the army. The total number of losses incurred by the 33rd Army, is more than 50% of the losses of the entire front.
“我军炮兵在作战中，尽管数量集中，而且比敌人有优势，但没有压制住敌方的炮兵。无论是在炮击中，还是在战斗中，这都没有发生。炮兵经常瞄准空区，听不到步兵的请求，与步兵部队失去联系。结果，就连友军也遭到炮轰。步兵进攻未被压制的敌军阵地，结果损失惨重，无法前进。我军炮兵的工作，特别是对抗炮兵的工作，在交战的各个阶段都是不足的。”
“与总部禁止特种部队作为普通步兵在战斗中使用的指示相反，戈多夫将军在普通步兵作战中经常使用侦察、化学、工兵部队。”
戈多夫没有进行周密的火炮和作战计划，而是设法用人力穿透敌人的防线。军队遭受的损失就是明证。第33军的总损失超过了整个前线损失的50%。
“Contrary to the instructions of the HQ, which prohibited the use of special units as ordinary infantry in battle, gen. Gordov often used reconnaissance, chemical and sappers units in ordinary infantry operations.”
Instead of careful artillery and operation planning, Gordov sought to penetrate the enemy’s defenses with manpower. This is evidenced by the losses suffered by the army. The total number of losses incurred by the 33rd Army, is more than 50% of the losses of the entire front.
“我军炮兵在作战中，尽管数量集中，而且比敌人有优势，但没有压制住敌方的炮兵。无论是在炮击中，还是在战斗中，这都没有发生。炮兵经常瞄准空区，听不到步兵的请求，与步兵部队失去联系。结果，就连友军也遭到炮轰。步兵进攻未被压制的敌军阵地，结果损失惨重，无法前进。我军炮兵的工作，特别是对抗炮兵的工作，在交战的各个阶段都是不足的。”
“与总部禁止特种部队作为普通步兵在战斗中使用的指示相反，戈多夫将军在普通步兵作战中经常使用侦察、化学、工兵部队。”
戈多夫没有进行周密的火炮和作战计划，而是设法用人力穿透敌人的防线。军队遭受的损失就是明证。第33军的总损失超过了整个前线损失的50%。
WTF moment:
“In his order of September 4, 1943, addressed to the commander of the 173rd rifle division, Colonel Zaitsev and the commanders of the regiments, Lieutenant Colonel Milovanov, Lieutenant Colonel Sizov, Major Guslitzer, gen Gordov demanded:
“All officers should be put into battle formation “chain” and go through the forest to smoke machine gunners from their nests”
最佳无厘头时刻：
“1943年9月4日，戈尔多夫将军向173步枪师指挥官扎伊采夫上校和各团指挥官米洛瓦诺夫中校、西佐夫中校、古斯利策少校发出命令，要求：所有军官都应该排成战斗队形“链”，穿过森林，把巢穴里的机枪手干掉。”
“In his order of September 4, 1943, addressed to the commander of the 173rd rifle division, Colonel Zaitsev and the commanders of the regiments, Lieutenant Colonel Milovanov, Lieutenant Colonel Sizov, Major Guslitzer, gen Gordov demanded:
“All officers should be put into battle formation “chain” and go through the forest to smoke machine gunners from their nests”
最佳无厘头时刻：
“1943年9月4日，戈尔多夫将军向173步枪师指挥官扎伊采夫上校和各团指挥官米洛瓦诺夫中校、西佐夫中校、古斯利策少校发出命令，要求：所有军官都应该排成战斗队形“链”，穿过森林，把巢穴里的机枪手干掉。”
On September 4, 1943, Gordov ordered Major General Ikonnikov, Chief of Staff of 70th regiment corps “Immediately send the entire command of the corps into the front-line. Leave in the headquarters only the chief of operations. "
Such inadmissible actions of Gordov led to disorganization of battle management and unreasonable losses in the officer corps. Over the past six months, in the 33rd Army, under the command of Gordov, 4 division commanders, 8 deputy division commanders and divisional chiefs, 38 regimental commanders and their deputies, and 174 battalion commanders were killed and wounded.
It gets only worse…
1943年9月4日，戈尔多夫命令第70兵团参谋长伊科尼科夫少将“立即把整个部队都派到前线去。在总部只留下行动主官。”
戈尔多夫这种不可接受的行动，导致了战斗管理的混乱和军官团的不合理损失。近6个月来，第33军在戈多夫指挥下，有4名师长、8名副师长、8名师部门主管、38名团长及副团长、174名营长伤亡。
情况甚至变得更糟糕……
Such inadmissible actions of Gordov led to disorganization of battle management and unreasonable losses in the officer corps. Over the past six months, in the 33rd Army, under the command of Gordov, 4 division commanders, 8 deputy division commanders and divisional chiefs, 38 regimental commanders and their deputies, and 174 battalion commanders were killed and wounded.
It gets only worse…
1943年9月4日，戈尔多夫命令第70兵团参谋长伊科尼科夫少将“立即把整个部队都派到前线去。在总部只留下行动主官。”
戈尔多夫这种不可接受的行动，导致了战斗管理的混乱和军官团的不合理损失。近6个月来，第33军在戈多夫指挥下，有4名师长、8名副师长、8名师部门主管、38名团长及副团长、174名营长伤亡。
情况甚至变得更糟糕……
“Major shortcomings occurred in the preparation and conduct of intelligence operations, and especially in the rear of the enemy. The main task — capturing captives — is not performed in many cases. So, in December, 23 reconnaissance operations were conducted in 192 platoon regiment to capture a POW. Not a single prisoner in these operations was captured, and the losses of our reconnaissance groups amounted to 26 people killed and wounded. In 192, 247 and 174 pr, hundreds of search reconnaissance operations were conducted from January 1 to February 15 and not a single prisoner was captured. In 331 and 251 pr, scouts were repeatedly killed in their minefields, since they were not indicated on map”
“情报行动的准备和实施存在重大缺陷，特别是在敌人后方。主要任务——抓俘虏——在很多情况下没有执行。因此，12月份，192排进行了23次侦察行动来抓1名俘虏。结果一个都没抓到，而我们侦察小组的损失达26人死伤。在192、247和174排的行动中，从1月1日到2月15日，进行了数百次搜查侦察行动，还是一个俘虏都没抓到。在331和251排中，侦察兵多次在他们的雷区被炸死，因为地图上没有标出这些雷区。”
“情报行动的准备和实施存在重大缺陷，特别是在敌人后方。主要任务——抓俘虏——在很多情况下没有执行。因此，12月份，192排进行了23次侦察行动来抓1名俘虏。结果一个都没抓到，而我们侦察小组的损失达26人死伤。在192、247和174排的行动中，从1月1日到2月15日，进行了数百次搜查侦察行动，还是一个俘虏都没抓到。在331和251排中，侦察兵多次在他们的雷区被炸死，因为地图上没有标出这些雷区。”
“In the operation of the 33rd Army in the Vitebsk direction, on December 23, the entry of the tank corps into battle was planned after the capture of River Luchesa by the infantry (18 km deep defense). On this basis, tanks were not introduced into battle, and when the infantry was stopped by organized enemy fire from prearranged lines and the river continued to remain ahead, a tank corps, rushed into battle, lost 60 tanks and failed to succeed. In the operations on the Bogushevsky direction on January 8, the tank corps was brought into combat, when essentially the infantry had no success. Having suffered up to 70% of losses, the tank corps advanced 2-4 km with the infantry, and then was withdrawn from combat.”
“在第33军在维捷布斯克方向的作战中，12月23日，坦克兵团是在步兵占领卢切萨河(纵深18公里)后进入战斗的。在此基础上，坦克没有投入战斗，当步兵被敌军有组织的火力从预先安排好的战线上拦截下来，河流继续保持在前方时，一个坦克兵团冲进战场，损失了60辆坦克，没有成功。当步兵被有组织的敌军从预先安排好的战线上的火力拦截，河流依旧挡在前面时，一支坦克部队冲进战场，损失了60辆坦克，未能突破防线。1月8日在博古舍夫斯基方向的作战中，坦克部队被投入战斗，而步兵基本上没有取得任何胜利。坦克部队损失达70%，跟随步兵前进2-4公里后退出战斗。”
“在第33军在维捷布斯克方向的作战中，12月23日，坦克兵团是在步兵占领卢切萨河(纵深18公里)后进入战斗的。在此基础上，坦克没有投入战斗，当步兵被敌军有组织的火力从预先安排好的战线上拦截下来，河流继续保持在前方时，一个坦克兵团冲进战场，损失了60辆坦克，没有成功。当步兵被有组织的敌军从预先安排好的战线上的火力拦截，河流依旧挡在前面时，一支坦克部队冲进战场，损失了60辆坦克，未能突破防线。1月8日在博古舍夫斯基方向的作战中，坦克部队被投入战斗，而步兵基本上没有取得任何胜利。坦克部队损失达70%，跟随步兵前进2-4公里后退出战斗。”
Thus, the constant attempt of commanders to achieve a breakthrough in defense through the premature entry of the tank corps into a battle did not have any results, and led to the fact that only two tanks left in the tank corps”
“Our counter-battery and counter-mine-attack groups did not suppress the enemy’s artillery and mortars, as a result of which the advance of our infantry was hampered by the enemy’s strong artillery and mortar fire, which is evidenced by the fact that in some operations the percentage of shrapnel wounds reached 70-80%”
“Within 4 months, the chief of staff and the entire headquarters were located at a distance of about 100 kilometers from the location of the front command, and during this time the commander and chief of staff met no more than 3-4 times”
因此，指挥官们不断试图通过过早地让坦克部队进入战斗来实现防御上的突破，但没有任何效果，导致坦克部队只剩下两辆坦克。
“我们的反炮兵连和反地雷攻击小组没有压制敌人的火炮和迫击炮，因此，我们步兵的推进受到敌人强大炮火和迫击炮火力的阻挡，事实证明，在某些行动中，弹片伤占70-80%。”
“在4个月内，参谋长和整个总部被安置在距离前线司令部约100公里的地方，在此期间，前线指挥官和参谋长会面不超过3-4次。”
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
“Our counter-battery and counter-mine-attack groups did not suppress the enemy’s artillery and mortars, as a result of which the advance of our infantry was hampered by the enemy’s strong artillery and mortar fire, which is evidenced by the fact that in some operations the percentage of shrapnel wounds reached 70-80%”
“Within 4 months, the chief of staff and the entire headquarters were located at a distance of about 100 kilometers from the location of the front command, and during this time the commander and chief of staff met no more than 3-4 times”
因此，指挥官们不断试图通过过早地让坦克部队进入战斗来实现防御上的突破，但没有任何效果，导致坦克部队只剩下两辆坦克。
“我们的反炮兵连和反地雷攻击小组没有压制敌人的火炮和迫击炮，因此，我们步兵的推进受到敌人强大炮火和迫击炮火力的阻挡，事实证明，在某些行动中，弹片伤占70-80%。”
“在4个月内，参谋长和整个总部被安置在距离前线司令部约100公里的地方，在此期间，前线指挥官和参谋长会面不超过3-4次。”
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
HQ instructions prohibited the use of reconnaissance units as regular infantry in combat. This order was systematically violated on the Western Front. Thus, in January 1944, in 33 armies, all reconnaissance units and formations that participated in the offensive as linear units and were completely destroyed.
Results of offensive operation:
Over 26 thousands killed, and 78 thousands wounded. Offensive operation was stopped and Germans were able to retain their positions (while having 3 times less manpower and about 5 times less in artillery and tank power).
Incredible and outrageous incompetence of leadership. No wonder why my great-grand father died there.
司令部的指示禁止在战斗中使用侦察部队作为常规步兵。这一命令在西线遭到有系统地违反。因此，1944年1月，在33支军队中，所有作为直线部队参加进攻的侦察部队和编队都被彻底摧毁。
攻击行动的结果：
超过2.6万人死亡，7.8万人受伤。进攻行动被停止，德国人得以保留阵地（而兵力只有苏军三分之一，大炮和坦克数量只有苏军五分之一）。
令人难以置信的无能领导。难怪我的曾祖父死在那里。
Results of offensive operation:
Over 26 thousands killed, and 78 thousands wounded. Offensive operation was stopped and Germans were able to retain their positions (while having 3 times less manpower and about 5 times less in artillery and tank power).
Incredible and outrageous incompetence of leadership. No wonder why my great-grand father died there.
司令部的指示禁止在战斗中使用侦察部队作为常规步兵。这一命令在西线遭到有系统地违反。因此，1944年1月，在33支军队中，所有作为直线部队参加进攻的侦察部队和编队都被彻底摧毁。
攻击行动的结果：
超过2.6万人死亡，7.8万人受伤。进攻行动被停止，德国人得以保留阵地（而兵力只有苏军三分之一，大炮和坦克数量只有苏军五分之一）。
令人难以置信的无能领导。难怪我的曾祖父死在那里。
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Awesome research. My grand-grand fathers returned from the war despite all this troubles… Cant imagine how hard it was!
了不起的研究。尽管如此，我的祖父还是从战争中回来了……无法想象那有多艰难!
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Four of my great-grand fathers died, and my grandfather was in concentration camp, but he survived because German woman secretly fed him
我的四个曾祖父都去世了，我祖父曾身陷集中营，但他活了下来，因为一个德国女人偷偷给他提供食物
How do you have 4 great grandfathers ? Are you considering his brothers too as great grandfathers ?
你怎么会有4个曾祖父?你把他的兄弟也当成曾祖父了吗?
You have 2 grandfathers + 2 grandmothers - both from moms and dads side.
Each of those 4 persons have their own father.
Which makes 4 grand-fathers.
你有2个祖父+ 2个祖母——这两对都来自父母一方。
这四位祖父母都有自己的父亲。
也就是4个曾祖父。
二
Battle of Tsushima, (May 27–29, 1905), naval engagement of the Russo-Japanese War, the final, crushing defeat of the Russian navy in that conflict.
对马海峡海战，（1905年5月27–29日 ），日俄战争中的海战，俄国海军在那场战争中最终惨败。
日本人一直没能完全掌握制海权，因为在阿瑟港和符拉迪沃斯托克的俄罗斯海军中队出动，双方在随后的交战中都遭受了损失。与此同时，俄国政府决定派遣季诺维海军上将指挥的波罗的海舰队，一路前往远东，与亚瑟港的太平洋舰队会合，在此基础上，联合舰队将压倒日本海军。俄罗斯波罗的海舰队花了整个夏天进行舾装，于1904年10月15日从利帕贾起航。10月21日，在北海的多格滩，几艘俄罗斯舰艇误以为英国拖网渔船是日本鱼雷艇，便向它们开火，这一事件在英国引起了极大的愤怒，俄国政府只得立即道歉并承诺全额赔偿，才得以避免战争。
在马达加斯加附近的Nossi-Bé，罗热斯特文斯基得知亚瑟港向日本军队投降，于是提议返回俄罗斯；但是，1905年3月初从波罗的海经苏伊士派遣的海军增援部队，后来在金兰湾(越南)与他会合，他决定继续前往。他的整支舰队组成了一支看似强大的舰队，但其中许多舰艇都很老旧，不可靠，船员也缺乏训练。5月初，舰队到达中国海域，罗热斯特文斯基经由对马海峡前往符拉迪沃斯托克。
东乡海军上将的舰队在釜山附近的韩国海岸等待他，5月27日，当俄罗斯舰队靠近时，他发起了攻击。日本舰船在速度和武器装备上都更胜一筹，在为期两天的战斗中，三分之二的俄罗斯舰队被击沉，六艘被俘虏，四艘到达符拉迪沃斯托克，六艘在中立港口避难。这是一次戏剧性的、决定性的挫败；在长达7个月的航行之后，当距离目的地不到几百英里的时候，波罗的海舰队被击溃了，与此同时，俄国人重新掌控海洋的希望也破灭了。
三
The Gulf War of 1991. It was one of the most lopsided wars in recorded history. Iraq wasn’t just defeated by the US-led Coalition, it was obliterated. It’s military and civilian infrastructure was torn to shreds, leaving its military a shadow of its former self and there was widespread devastation throughout the country. It achieved none of it’s war goals. And all this while inflicting minimal, almost meaningless losses on it’s enemies.
After the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, the subsequent assembly of the Coalition, sanctions, and ultimatum, the Coalition launched a campaign against Iraq, starting with an air campaign that saw widespread bombing of Iraqi military targets and infrastructure, followed by an approximately 100-hour ground campaign to eject Iraqi forces out of Kuwait and then invade Iraq itself. Most of the battles were massively lopsided and ended in Coalition victories.
1991年的海湾战争。这是有史以来最不对等的战争之一。伊拉克不仅被美国领导的联军打败，而且被彻底摧毁。其军事和民用基础设施被撕成碎片，给其军队留下一个昔日的影子，全国各地都遭到了大范围的破坏。其军队没有实现任何战争目标。而与此同时，仅对敌人造成微乎其微、几乎毫无意义的损失。
在伊拉克入侵科威特、随后的联盟会议、制裁和最后通牒之后，联盟对伊拉克发动了一场战役，首先是空袭，对伊拉克的军事目标和基础设施进行了大范围的轰炸，接着是大约100小时的地面行动，将伊拉克部队赶出科威特，然后入侵伊拉克。大多数战斗都是一边倒的，最终以联军的胜利而告终。
伊拉克士兵在战争中死亡的最低估计大约是2.5万人，甚至可能高达5万人。数千辆伊拉克坦克和其他装甲车辆被摧毁。最臭名昭著的事件之一是“死亡公路”事件，当时联军飞机摧毁了从科威特撤退的大批伊拉克部队，留下数英里的被毁车辆和尸体。联军坦克以其巨大的优势，几乎不费吹灰之力就摧毁了当时世界第四大军队的庞大装甲部队。大部分伊拉克空军逃到了伊朗，但那些留在那里的飞机基本上都被摧毁了。伊拉克海军全军覆没。伊拉克的公路、铁路、炼油厂、发电站、桥梁、工厂、广播电台等也遭到大规模破坏，据推测，有3664名平民死亡。
尽管如此，联军仍损失了292名士兵，其中只有147人真正死于伊拉克的军事行动:其他人死于友军误击和其他事故。只有少数联军飞机被击落，包括少数坦克在内的装甲车辆被敌军行动摧毁。
This was probably the most humiliating defeat in living memory. Iraq not only lost completely, had it’s military torn to shreds, and suffered widespread devastation, it cost the US and it’s allies almost nothing in terms of losses to enemy action.
伊拉克被逐出科威特，其部分领土被暂时占领。它从一个工业化国家倒退到前工业化国家，并遭受了多年的严厉制裁。军队被摧毁了。几年后，美国领导的联军为了支持库尔德人，设立了禁飞区，有效地征用了大部分领空。直到今天，伊拉克仍在按照联合国的要求向科威特支付赔款。
这可能是人们记忆中最耻辱的一次失败。伊拉克不仅完全输了，军队被撕成碎片，遭受了广泛的破坏，美国及其盟友在敌方行动中几乎没有损失。
评论
Was with you until the last sentence.
It cost the US a shit-ton! We spent trillions on that war. Terrible use of money.
除了最后一句外都同意。
美国付出惨重代价！我们在那场战争上花费了数万亿美元。对金钱极其不合理的使用。
I'm not talking about what the US elected to spend, I'm talking about what Iraq managed to inflict. To have your entire military gutted and inflict trivial losses in exchange is humiliating.
我说的不是美国的开支，我说的是伊拉克造成的后果。你以军队全军覆没换来对敌人造成微不足道的损失，是一种奇耻大辱。
Your figure for the Iraqi civilian losses are ridiculous. How did you come up with that one. If between 25 & 50k Iraqi soldiers lost their lives then definitely at minimum, four times that many civilians were killed. This, not to mention the subsequent civilian losses after the war due to lack of medicine’s and medical facilities, imposition of various embargo’s, etc, .. . But this is the Iraqi’s just deserts for what they perpetrated against the Iranian’s . Their indiscriminate use of chemical weapons against Iranian troops and civilians alike went un-condemned by the US and other Western Allies because what the Iraqi’s were doing was in their best interests.
你给出的伊拉克平民伤亡数字太荒谬了。你是怎么得出的?如果有2.5万到5万名伊拉克士兵丧生，那么至少有4倍于此的平民被杀。这就不提战后由于缺乏药品和医疗设施、实施各种禁运等造成的平民伤亡了……但这是伊拉克人对伊朗人犯下的罪行所应得的报应。他们不分青红皂白地对伊朗军队和平民使用化学武器，却没有受到美国和其他西方盟国的谴责，因为伊拉克所做的一切都符合他们的最大利益。
There is no such rule that civilian casualties will exceed military casualties by a factor of 4. Casualties are based off of circumstantial factors, not an inherent mathematical relationship set in stone between military and civilian deaths. A long occupation against an insurgency hiding amongst civilians is going to have a different ratio of combatant to civilian deaths compared to fighting the Iraqi army in the desert of another country. Even operations in urban areas can have massively different ratios depending on whether or not a successful evacuation is carried out.
没有规定平民伤亡要超过军人伤亡的4倍。伤亡是基于间接因素，而不是军人和平民死亡之间的固有数学关系。与在另一个国家的沙漠中与伊拉克军队作战相比，对隐藏在平民中的叛乱分子的长期控制将导致不同比例的战斗人员与平民死亡。即使是在城市地区的行动，也可能有很大不同的比例，这取决于是否进行了成功的疏散。
Yes, sure. there is no such relationship between civilian and military casualties but that wasn’t the point of my retort. I was really questioning the figure of 3664 civilian fatalities. Do you believe it?
是的,你说得没错。平民伤亡和军人伤亡之间没有这种固定关系，但这不是我反驳的重点。我真的很怀疑3664名平民死亡的数字。你相信吗?
Iraq records indicate less than 3000 civilian deaths. A census Bureau analyst compiled reports from the Human Rights Watch and by removing duplicate reports tallied 2665 identifies civilians being confirmed to have been killed as a direct result of the war. There was no ground fighting in the cities of Iraq during the gulf war; all Iraq civilian casualties came from things like coalition air strikes against infrastructure like power plants and oil refineries and government conplexes.
伊拉克的记录显示，平民死亡人数不到3000人。人口普查局的一名分析师汇编了人权观察组织的报告，并通过删除重复的报告，确认有2665名平民被证实直接死于战争。海湾战争期间，伊拉克的城市里没有地面战斗；所有伊拉克平民的伤亡都来自于联军对发电厂、炼油厂和政府大楼等基础设施的空袭。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Totally unbelievable. But I won't engage in a baseless argument. First of all whose cencus bureau. If American then it can definitely be disregarded as mere propaganda. I'll do my own research and then we can revisit the issue. Your comment about collateral casualties via air strikes makes my point though. Are these figures included in your even lower number.
完全难以置信。但我不会参与毫无根据的争论。首先是谁的人口普查局。如果它是美国的，那么它绝对可以被视为纯粹的宣传。我会自己做研究，然后我们再讨论这个问题。你关于空袭附带伤亡的评论说明了我的观点。这些数字包括在你给出的更低数字里吗?
I have already stated that the civillian casualties were due mostly to air strikes hitting targets that housed civilians such as oil refineries and power plants. The research I cited was not done by the US census bureau (which doesn’t concern itself with statistics of other countries demographics) but by an employee using third party sources to compile confirmed identities of those that died as a direct result of the war. What you find believable is of no concern to anyone. You have offered zero evidence or even a counterclaim with an actual number. I don’t care what you want to believe, facts are facts; unless you have actual evidence that prove the Iraqi, US, and even third party NGO’s estimates were off stop wasting people’s time with this nonsense
我已经说过，平民伤亡主要是由于空袭击中了平民居住的目标，如炼油厂和发电厂。我引用的研究不是美国人口普查局做的(它不关心其他国家的人口统计数据)，而是由一名雇员通过第三方信息来源收集那些直接死于战争确认身份的人。你认为可信的东西与任何人无关。你没有提供任何证据，甚至未提出一个有实际数字的反驳。我不在乎你想相信什么，事实就是事实；除非你有实际的证据证明伊拉克，美国，甚至第三方非政府组织的估计是错误的，否则不要浪费人们的时间在这些无稽之谈上。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Hey Jack, why so angry, as I said, I will do my own research and if I find the claim to be substantiated by other sources then I will say so. You seem extremely touchy about my skepticism regarding the figure. By the way, do you happen to have the pulse of what everyone believes. And now you have introduced another question to me, who is the unnamed employee, by who was he employed, what third party sources did he use. How was the identities confirmed. I don’t remember boots on the ground Gulf 1. As far as zero evidence is concerned, don’t talk about yourself like that. Give yourself some credit. If this nonsense is such a time wasting enterprise, why do you keep replying?
嘿，杰克，干嘛生这么大气，就如我所说，我会自己做研究，如果我发现这个说法被其他来源证实，我会同意你的观点。你似乎对我对数字的怀疑非常敏感。顺便问一下，你是否了解大家的想法。现在你又向我透露了另一个问题，这位未透露姓名的员工是谁，他是由谁雇佣的，他使用了哪些第三方资源。身份是如何确认的?我不记得第一次海湾战争有地面部队。在没有证据的情况下，别这么说你自己。相信你自己。如果这些废话是浪费时间的事情，你为什么一直回复?
“Touchy”? If this is considered touchy then yes, whenever someone formulates a baseless opinion and tries to argue against statistics based on said preconceived motion not cemented in actual evidence I get “touchy.” I’m not even mad, I’m calling it out as it is: you saying you don’t believe it means nothing. Beliefs are not academic. Had you said, “I’ve seen some evidence to disprove this” then fine; even if you didn’t cite your sources, it would have been better than going off about made up ratios that don’t take into account any of the circumstantial factors involved. The researcher I cited was Beth Daponte, who had already left the census bureau at the time of her study and was working at Carnegie Mellon University at the time. The third party sources cited come from the Human Rights Watch. She used provincial records from Iraq to confirm or deny reports.
“敏感”?如果这被认为是敏感的，那么是的，每当有人提出一个毫无根据的观点，并试图根据这种没有得到实际证据支持的先入为主的见解，来反驳统计数据时，我就会变得“敏感”。我根本不生气，我是这么说的:你说你不相信，这毫无意义。信念不是学术。如果你说，“我看到了一些证据来反驳这一点”，那也行；即使你没有引用你的资料来源，这也比编造不考虑任何环境因素的比值要好得多。我引用的研究人员是贝丝·达蓬特，她在进行这项研究时已经离开了人口普查局，当时在卡内基梅隆大学工作。引用的第三方消息来源来自人权观察组织。她利用伊拉克各省的记录来证实或否认报道。