网友讨论：美国可以学习中国令人惊叹的高铁网络
America can learn from China’s amazing high-speed rail network
译文简介
中国已经在未来建设高速铁路的道路上走了一半，在那里，乘火车是一个简单的选择，而飞机是第二选择。 在北京和上海之间旅行最方便的方式是乘坐高速列车，这种说法适用于中国越来越多的航线。
正文翻译
China is already halfway to a high-speed rail future, where taking the train is the easy option and flying is the second choice. The most convenient way to travel between Beijing and Shanghai is by high-speed train, and that statement is true for a growing number of routes across China.
概要：中国已经在未来建设高速铁路的道路上走了一半，在那里，乘火车是一个简单的选择，而飞机是第二选择。 在北京和上海之间旅行最方便的方式是乘坐高速列车，这种说法适用于中国越来越多的航线。
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America can learn from literally any country's rail network...
美国可以向任何国家的铁路网学习。
Except from the UK rail network...:
We pay exuberant prices...Have delays very (very!) often (sometimes hours)
Seldom have a seat
Are packed in the trains like beans in a tin
Have to often change multiple times
Have often conflicting messages from staff (or none at all)
Trains smell of alcohol and fast food
Toilets are either locked, or open but without running water to wash your hands
Have abysmal internet connections on the trains
I'm sure there are many more examples of how shit the UK trains are (and indeed, the public transport in general!) in the UK.
My point is, nobody, please... NOBODY! follow the UK on public transport "ideas".
除了英国的铁路网... :
我们花了很多钱，经常延迟到站(有时几个小时)，很少的座位，就像罐头里的豆子一样被装在火车里，必须经常多次换线，经常从铁路员工那里得到自相矛盾的信息(或者根本没有提供信息)。火车上有酒精和快餐的味道，厕所要么是锁住的，要么是关不上的，也没有自来水洗手。火车上的网络连接非常糟糕。我敢肯定还有很多例子可以说明英国的火车有多么糟糕，(事实上，还包括英国整个公共交通系统！)。
我的意思是，不要有人，拜托...不要有人去效仿英国公共交通的“理念”！
Besides the price, I don't think it's that bad. Every country complains about their own trains being shitty.
But as an outsider and now a regular commuter by train, I love UK trains.
除了价格，我认为英国没那么糟糕。每个国家都在抱怨自己的火车糟糕透顶。
但我作为一个旁观人，现在又是一个普通的上班族乘火车上下班，我喜欢英国的火车。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Every country complains about their own trains being shitty.
Not Japan
每个国家都抱怨他们自己的火车糟糕透顶。
不包括日本
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
they do. also if we talk about overpricing, i have some news for you about japanese rail ...
是的。 还有，如果我们谈到价格虚高的问题，我有些关于日本铁路的消息要跟你分享.....
The way reddit fetishizes Japan and Japanese culture is amazing.
红迪网盲目迷恋日本和日本文化的方式真让人惊叹。
America actually has one of the best freight train networks in the world. Unlike most other countries it’s the freight services that own the rail, rather than the government.
事实上，美国拥有世界上最好的货运列车网络之一。 与其他大多数国家不同，拥有铁路的是货运服务公司，而不是政府。
The key here is that you will never get Americans to embrace public transportation. While it may get you from point a to point b fairly quickly, going to point a and from point b to your final destination is the problem.
I live in Salt Lake City and if I wanted to get from my house to my place of employment downtown using public transportation, I'd have to drive my car to a bus stop, take the bus to the train station, transfer trains several times and then walk the rest of the way to work. A 20 minute trip by car would turn into a 2 hour trip in a sea of humanity by rail. No thanks.
What makes China and other Asian countries uniquely suited to public transport is a fairly dense population. Here in America, we are spread out far and wide. There just isn't a good argument for public transportation in most places. Even in places where it actually works and is profitable, it doesn't eliminate the need for cars. You still have to drive to and from the station unless you are lucky enough to be on a bus route.
And to be honest, places where rail actually works usually don't call for high speed rail in the first place. I've taken public transportation from Downers Grove to Chicago in the past and the rail part is the least painful part of the commute already.
这里的关键是，你永远不会让美国人接受公共交通。 虽然从 a 点到 b 点可能会很快，但从 a 点到 b 点再到最终目的地才是问题所在。
我住在盐湖城，如果我想乘坐公共交通工具从家里到我在市中心工作的地方，我必须开车到公共汽车站，乘公共汽车到火车站，换乘几次火车，然后步行走完剩下的路程去上班。 20分钟的汽车旅行会变成2小时的火车旅行。 所以不用了，谢谢。
中国和其他亚洲国家之所以非常适应公共交通，是因为它们的人口相当密集。 在美国，我们分布得非常广泛。 在大多数地方，公共交通并不是一个很好的方式。 即使在有利且有效的地方，它也不能消除对汽车的需求。 你仍然必须开车往返车站，除非你足够幸运地就在公共汽车的路线上。
说实话，那些真正有铁路运营的地方通常一开始就不需要高铁。 过去我乘坐过从道纳斯格罗夫到芝加哥的公共交通工具，而铁路已经是上下班中相对舒服的部分了。
Last mile problem ftw!
Also want to say that China was able to build their cities with a passenger rail network in mind. They can also say "We're building rail here, GTFO" We can't do that in the united states because our citizens have rights ...also our cities are much older, and much less densely populated but already established with roads and buildings and such, so it's crazy expensive.
If you were to turn on sand box mode and remake the US, you could restructure every major american city to have an efficient local rail system. Since we haven't figured out sand box mode yet, we'll have to settle for mid-grade rail in urban centers
最后一英里问题！
还要说的是，中国在建设城市时，会考虑到客运铁路的网络。 他们也可以说: “我们正在这里修建铁路，给我走开”在美国我们不能这么做，因为我们有公民权利...而且我们的城市比较老，人口密集程度也低得多，而且已经有了公路和建筑之类的东西，所以成本高得离谱。
如果你打开沙箱模式，重塑美国，你可以重组美国的每一个主要城市，让它们有一个高效的地方铁路系统。 由于我们还没有搞清楚沙箱模式，所以我们不得不满足于市中心的中档铁路
Air travel makes sense for America. It's very large and the population isn't as large as China. They don't need to move that large a mass. Honestly you guys need better networks inside the city rather than in between cities
航空旅行对美国来说是有意义的。 美国非常大，而且人口不像中国那么多。 它们不需要移动那么多的人。 老实说，你们需要更好的城市内部网络，而不是城市之间的网络
China has a major advantage since they own all land in China. No need for eminent domain or negotiation with land owners. They can just relocate you when they want to use the land. We can't just kick people off of their property here in the US, so all of that buying back land and litigation when it doesn't go smoothly takes time. Lots of time. So even with the best intentions, it takes for-fucking-ever to complete any large transit project due to the nature of land ownership.
中国有很大的优势，因为他们拥有中国所有的土地。 不需要征用权或与土地所有者谈判。 当他们想要使用这块土地的时候，他们可以重新安置你。 我们不能就这样把人们从他们在美国的财产上赶走，所以当事情进展不顺利的时候，所有买回土地和诉讼都需要时间。 花很多时间。 因此，即使是出于最好的意图，由于土地所有权的性质，完成任何大型交通项目都需要花费他妈的一辈子。
They can, to an extent. Look up nail houses and you can see many examples (not just from china) of houses in the middle of roadworks and other large projects where someone refused to budge, and (sometimes surprisingly) did not get forcibly relocated.
在某种程度上，他们可以拒绝安置。 查一下钉子户中，你可以看到许多例子（不仅仅来自中国） ，在道路施工和其他大型项目中，有些人拒绝让步，（有时令人惊讶的是）他们没有被强迫搬迁。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
You dont have a good understanding of it. Actually Rails are built in the countryside and people living there are happy that their houses could be removed cuz gov would give them a quite considerable compensation for that. On the contrary, people generally want their houses can be scheduled into removal plan. That compensation can make them buy three to ten houses nearby. So we have a saying called the way to get rich is your house being wrote with a 拆(removal)character on its wall. To be fair, the condition that someone not willing to move out exists but Gov will negotiate with them though. So sometimes the rail will be changed its routes a little bit if the negotiation failed. What you described is individual case being exaggerated. Not obxtive man.
你并不了解中国。 事实上，铁轨是在农村铺设的，生活在那里的人们很高兴他们的房子可以被拆除，因为政府会给他们相当可观的补偿。 相反，人们一般都希望自己的房子能被安排到搬迁计划中。 这样的补偿可以让他们在附近买三到十套房子。 所以有一个说法称这为“致富之路”，就是你的房子墙上写着“拆除”的字符。 公平地说，有些人不愿意搬出去，但是政府会和他们沟通。 因此，如果沟通失败了，铁路有时会稍微改变一下路线。 你所描述的个别情况被夸大了，不客观了，朋友。
Just like many government projects, train service has to maintain unprofitable routes for political reasons. I'm sure rail lines that connect the biggest cities such as Beijing-Shanghai-Guangzhou are highly profitable. The problem is they also have train services to Western inland China that is sparsely populated.
就像许多政府项目一样，出于政治原因，铁路服务必须维持着不盈利的路线。 我相信连接北京、上海、广州等大城市的铁路线利润率很高。 问题是他们也有连接人口稀少的中国西部内陆的火车服务。
Everything you do doesn't have to be profitable. Sometimes you just build infrastructure because the people benefit from it.
你做的每一件事都不一定是有利可图的。 有时因为人们会受益，所以你建设了相应的基础设施。
Most of the high speed train lines run a operating loss and China Railway Corp. was running $700 billion debt which is not sustainable and it's getting bigger every year.
大多数高铁线路运营亏损，中国铁路总公司负债7000亿美元（译注：以国内报道为准），这是不可持续的，而且每年都在增加。
So what, the whole country benifits from a high speed train system, it don´t have to earn money for themself.
那又怎么样，整个国家都会受益于高速列车系统，高铁不需要给自己挣钱。
the trains aren't made to be profitable they are really just another piece of infrastructure like highways or the metro.
火车并不是为了盈利而制造的，它们实际上只是像高速公路或地铁一样的基础设施的一部分。
There is a cool comparison video on Youtube about this topic.
"Why China Is so Good at Building Railways"
油管上有一个很酷的关于这个话题的对比视频“中国为什么擅长建设铁路”
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Because public transportation should not be for profit and government usually subsidize the loss, like in most countries....
因为公共交通不应该以盈利为目的，而政府通常会补贴亏损，就像大多数国家一样..
This summer I went to Yunnan province for hiking and I saw high speed train track tunnels being built in mountains neighboring Tibet. The tracks and tunnels will connect Yunnan province capital and Yunnan’s remote counties then eventually Tibet’s counties, having absolutely stunning scenes. Yunnan province capital is already well developed and connected to other big cities like Chengdu by high speed train.
It is something unique of China’s system, which could build the necessary infrastructure connecting remote areas to city hubs at huge loss. And China’s public generally support it because most of them hope people from there could be lifted out of poverty and could thrive. This will in turn create more middle class which is good for economy in general.
今年夏天我去云南徒步旅行，我看到在西藏附近的山区正在修建高速铁路隧道。 这些铁轨和隧道将连接云南省省会和云南偏远的县，然后最终连接西藏的县，有着绝对令人惊叹的场景。云南省会已经很发达，并通过高速列车与成都等其他大城市相连。
这是中国系统的一个独特之处，它可以建立连接偏远地区和城市枢纽的必要基础设施，但这会损失巨大。 而且中国公众普遍支持它，因为他们中的大多数人都希望那里的人民能够摆脱贫困，能够发展良好。 这反过来又会创造出更多的中产阶级，总体上对经济有利。
A fair comparison would be to look at the cost saved from people not having to drive across the country.
Say a high speed rail would save X trips a year, at a cost of $Y a trip. If the operating cost of the rail is less than X*Y then it's good for the country overall.
一个公平的比较应该是，看看人们不需要开车穿越整个国家，所节省的成本。
假设一条高速铁路每年可以节省 x 次旅行，而每次旅行的成本是 y 美元。 如果铁路的运营成本低于 x * y，那么这对整个国家是有益的。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Yet it serves millions now. A small price payed compared to what they got.
然而，它现在服务于数百万人，与他们所得到的相比，只是付出了小小的代价。
Do you? Maybe it's needed if you want the same network as them as fast as them, i.e. covering the entire country with HSR in about a decade. Which in any other country than China is science-fiction.
You can do the same but doing "Western style". It might take longer but will be more ethical, yet still possible to achieve a great HSR network.
是吗？ 如果你想要和中国一样快的高铁网络，比如在十年内覆盖整个国家的高铁网络，这也许是必要的。 但这对中国以外的任何国家来说，都是科幻小说的情节。
你可以做同样的事情，但是以“西方风格”，这可能需要更长的时间，但更符合道德标准，还是有可能实现一个伟大的高铁网络。
That said, I think people underestimate how much China can get things done.
It’s an incredibly results oriented country, much more functional capitalist in the original sense than the western economies are now.
When I lived in China, we had a new subway line going from “this would be a good idea” to trains rolling in two years. Pretty phenomenal.
也就是说，我认为人们低估了中国能够做到多少事情。
这是一个难以置信的以结果为导向的国家，原始意义上比现在的西方经济体更具资本主义的功能。
以前我住在中国的时候，当需要一条新的铁路时，从“嗯，这是一个好主意”到火车开始正式运行，只需两年。相当的了不起。
This is all pretty fundamental to China’s HSR success
这些都是中国高铁成功的基础
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
China’s compensation for moving people off the land has been pretty generous. Where do you think the rich Chinese hillbilly tourists come from?
中国对拆迁人口的补偿是相当慷慨的。不然你认为那些富有的中国土豪是从哪里来的？
China built their's at 30 million per mile. California is building their's at 140 million per mile.
A big reason for this cost difference is Cal HSR took forever to buy land and people know the alignment cant be changed, so landowners were offering their land at 5, sometimes 10x the market rate
中国是以每英里3000万美元的价格建造他们的铁路。而加利福尼亚正以每英里1.4亿美元的价格建造他们的铁路。
造成这种成本差异的一个重要原因是加州高铁花了很长时间才买到土地，那些人们知道路线不能改变，所以土地所有者以5倍甚至10倍的市场价格出售土地。
I mean China's cities and America's cities are totally different in terms of architectural layout. That plays a big role in designing a metro system. What works in China may not work in America.
我的意思是中国的城市和美国的城市在建筑布局上是完全不同的。 这在地铁系统的设计中发挥重要作用。 在中国行得通的方法，在美国可能行不通。
Isnt the issue land ownership in the US? I think the Chinese government owns all of their land and leases it out to people. I would expect it to be hard to lay down rail in mismatched land.
难道美国的土地所有权问题不就是这样吗？ 我认为中国政府拥有所有的土地，并将其出租给人民。 我认为在不匹配的土地上铺设铁路是很困难的。
Does US have the population size to justify it though? By connecting Shanghai and Hangzhou you’re connecting 40 million people. In the US if you connect New York and Chicago it will be -5 million tops. Does it really generate enough value?
然而，美国的人口规模能证明可行吗？ 通过连接上海和杭州，你连接了4000万人。但在美国，如果你把纽约和芝加哥连起来，最多也就是500万人。 高铁真的能产生足够的价值吗？
We can't learn anything from it because at least half the country will be against investing in it
我们不能从中学到任何东西，因为至少有一半的国家反对投资高铁
Should we ask them to build it or just copy it ourselves?
我们应该要求他们帮我们建造高铁，还是说我们自己去复制它？
disagree, most of china's population is centered in one corner of their country, whereas the U.S. population is more spread out.
不同意，大多数中国人口集中在他们国家的一个角落，而美国人口更分散。
You say that but the northeast is very, very dense, as dense as many parts of China. People will be convinced to use it over cars when they realize it’s more convenient than a plane and at least twice as fast as a car.
你这么说，但是美国东北部的人口密度非常非常大，就像中国的很多地方一样。 当人们意识到它比飞机更方便，速度至少是汽车的两倍时，他们就会相信它比汽车更便利了。
But then the car industry would plummet ): In all seriousness I hate the American car culture.
但是之后汽车工业就会一落千丈) : 说真的，我讨厌美国的汽车文化。
China can learn from America’s amazing legal frxwork which includes property and land rights
中国可以向美国学习神奇的法律框架，包括财产权和土地权在内。
Counterpoint: America won't learn anything from anyone.
相比：美国不会从任何人身上学到任何东西。
I actually go to China like once or twice a year since the company I work for has an office over there and it's actually to insane to see the Western perception vs. the reality. But people make it seems like these trains are rickety roller coasters that go a billion miles an hour and kill people regularly. From actually taking them, the passenger experience is really good, even if you're not in a priority class. They are quick, inexpensive, smooth and you have waaaaaaaay more room compared to the cramped, smushed flights or the awful Amtraks I take domestically in the U.S.
End of the day though, I think stuff like self-driving cars will probably be the way forward in the future for U.S., so maybe not worth at this point.
事实上，我每年都会去中国一两次，因为我工作的公司在那里有一个办公室，看到西方人的观念与现实的对比实在是太疯狂了。
但是西方人经常认为这些火车摇摇晃晃的像过山车，时速能达到10亿英里，经常有事故。实际乘坐中国的高铁，即使你不是一等座，乘坐体验真的很好。它们快捷、便宜、平稳，而且与我在美国国内乘坐的狭窄、拥挤的航班或糟糕的美国铁路公司的火车相比，空间要大得多。
不过，我认为自动驾驶汽车之类的东西可能是美国未来的发展方向，所以在这一点上可能不值得。
You realize we do that in the US too right? And the federal government owns most of the land in the country?
你知道我们在美国也这么做，对吧？ 联邦政府拥有这个国家大部分的土地？
What does that have to do with learning from the Chinese railway system? Did you read a different article about learning from the Chinese designers of high speed rail?
这与向中国铁路系统学习有什么关系？ 你有没有读过一篇关于向中国高铁设计师学习的文章？
They can also learn from Japan. America’s rail system is slow.
他们也可以向日本学习，美国的铁路系统发展缓慢。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Tbh that applies in the UK as well.
Trains are only 10% of our travel and that almost entirely the London commuter belt, its just a crap way to get about. From door to door with a family and luggage, the train is just awful compared to a car.
这也适用于英国。
火车只占我们旅行的10% ，而且几乎完全是伦敦通勤带，这是一种糟糕的出行方式。 带着家人和行李挨家挨户地走，与汽车相比，火车简直糟透了。
The reason we don't have rail network like this readily available is because America encouraged everyone to buy cars and also since Americans are so sprawped out. I agree. We should have a high speed rail network like China. But literally no one will use it because cars are so plentiful in America.
我们之所以没有像这样现成的铁路网络，是因为美国鼓励每个人购买汽车，也因为美国人的消费水平太高了。 我同意，我们应该有一个像中国一样的高速铁路网。 但实际上没有人会使用它，因为美国的汽车种类非常丰富。
Almost every American hate public transportation. You’re right, it’s never going to happen and we don’t need them. It will be a waste of money.
几乎每个美国人都讨厌公共交通。 你是对的，这永远不会发生，我们也不需要他们。 这是在浪费钱。
China could also learn from America about the first amendment, so....
中国也可以向美国学习第一修正案，所以...
Forget rail. Autonomous vehicles and the US’ road system will end up being a better alternative. 10 years ago, I’d have agreed we need more high speed rail. But, I think autonomous vehicles is going to play out in America’s favor in a really big way.
忘了铁路吧。 自动驾驶汽车和美国的道路系统最终将成为一个更好的选择。 10年前，我同意我们需要更多的高速铁路。 但是，我认为无人驾驶汽车将会在很大程度上对美国有利。
It’s anazing that anytime any topic comes up where America falls behind in we’re given a million reasons why we can’t do it and they’re always stupid arguments.
令人惊讶的是，任何时候，当美国落后于其他国家的时候，我们都会有一百万个理由来解释为什么我们不能这么做，而且这些理由总是很愚蠢。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Sorry, I don't want to learn anything from the Chinese. If we're to get any help, suggestions or ideas from anybody it would be from the most efficient, cleanest and safest system for 50+ years running... the Shinkansen in Japan.
对不起，我不想从中国人那里学到任何东西。 如果我们要从其他人那里得到任何帮助、建议或想法，那就是来自日本的新干线，它是日本50多年来最高效、最干净、最安全的系统。
It could learn to overthrow the political system and build a pathway to a egalitarian state like in China, I'd support that!
如果美国可以学会推翻政治制度，建立一个像中国这样的平等主义国家，我会支持的！
I guess America should just steal Siemens rail technology then tell them to f off lol.
我想美国应该窃取西门子铁路技术，然后告诉他们滚开。
American high speed rail network would be a huge target for terrorist sabotage.
美国的高速铁路网络将成为恐怖分子破坏的巨大目标。
I think the American railroad system is still better then in some parts of Germany
This week my train back home was late 3 times, except for today when my train the the main station was late so I missed the one home
Fuck that
我认为美国的铁路系统比德国的一些地方还要好，这个星期我回家的火车晚点了3次，除了今天我的火车到主站的时候晚了，所以我错过了回家的那一趟，去他妈的。
If America has learned anything its that rails are communist, health care is socialist, and education is superfluous. Don't expect this or any administration to start taking notes from China or anyone else. If there is going to be a movement towards high-speed rail its going to be from some philanthropic/opportunistic billionaire. Convince the rich that they'll get richer if they give us rails and maybe we'll get them. The ruling class, well, rules...
如果说美国学到了什么，那就是铁路是共产主义，医疗是社会主义，而教育是多余主义。 不要指望本届政府或任何一届政府开始从中国或任何其他国家那里学习。 如果美国要朝着高铁方向发展，那一定是出自某位慈善家或机会主义的亿万富翁之手。
说服富人让他们相信，如果他们给我们铁路，他们会变得更富有。这样也许我们会得到铁路。 统治阶级，嗯，统治...
We can but we won't. We are such a spoiled country.
我们可以，但我们不会。我们是一个被宠坏的国家。
I call bullshit. Most Americans aren’t capable of learning. Adult illiteracy is a real problem in America.
我认为是胡说八道。 大多数美国人没有学习能力。 成人文盲在美国是一个真正的问题。
In America different companies own sections of rail making it very difficult to get anything done.
在美国，不同的公司拥有不同的铁路部分，这使得做任何事情都非常困难。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
That is my favorite part of visiting China the rail system gets you where you need to go so fast and just keeps getting better.
这是我游览中国时最喜欢的部分，铁路系统会很快带你到你需要去的地方，而且一直再进步。
No chance in USA. California high speed rail proved that. Between environmental issues and land issues as well as cost, it just isn’t feasible. Better off putting cars on rails.
在美国没有机会的。 加利福尼亚的高速铁路证明了这一点。 考虑到环境问题和土地问题以及成本问题，这行不通的。 把汽车放在铁轨上反而更好。
Sadly, America will not likely learn anything from anyone.
遗憾的是，美国不太可能从任何人那里学到任何东西。