自然免疫好还是接种疫苗好?为什么?

Michelle Steele - MAD PIRATE QUEEN
These aren’t mutually exclusive… you get that right? What many people don’t seem to understand is that vaccinations are used to trigger your natural immunity.
Vaccines are simply designed to do this in the safest possible way since vaccines either don’t contain any live virus, or they contain a greatly weakened strain that is easy for your body to overcome (but both options train your body to create the antibodies needed).
The Black Plague is also still active.
When discussing the possibility of contracting a serious venereal disease, which is better? Natural immunity? …or using condoms? Most people (even anti-vaxxers) will immediately admit that condoms are the best method.
It’s weird.People really don’t like the idea of their junk possibly falling the f#ck off or turning into a festering fetid odiferous swamp. They understand that condoms are not 100% effective, but accept the idea that having an imperfect barrier is better than no barrier at all.
But when you relate this to vaccines, (take COVID as an example) people are completely blase about having their lungs fill up with fluid until they can’t breathe while they choke their way to a nasty and mostly oxygen-free death. It’s just a pity that anti-vaxxers take innocent bystanders with them as they fall.

两者并不是相互排斥的，你明白吗?许多人似乎不明白的是，疫苗是用来触发你的自然免疫力的。
疫苗只是以最安全的方式设计来做到这一点，因为疫苗要么是不含任何活性病毒，要么是含有非常脆弱的毒株，使得很容易让你的身体克服它(但这两种选择都能训练你的身体产生所需的抗体)。

黑死病依然活着
在讨论感染严重性病的可能性时，哪个更好?自然免疫力?还是使用避孕套?大多数人(甚至是反对接种疫苗的人)会立即承认安全套是最好的方法。
这太奇怪了。
人们真的不喜欢他们的那个玩意儿可能掉下来或变成一坨溃烂恶臭的烂肉的想法。
他们明白避孕套并不是100%有效的，但接受有一个不完美的屏障总比没有屏障好的观点。
但当你把这与疫苗联系在一起时，(以新冠肺炎为例)人们却对肺部充满液体直到无法呼吸感到非常厌倦。
只是遗憾的是，反疫苗者在他们倒下的时候带走了无辜的旁观者。

Tim Rivett
It’s weird, but there are plenty of conspiracy theorists in Africa who refuse to use condoms because of conspiracy theory rubbish even though it’s demonstrated over and over again to be the best way to prevent AIDS. Among the saner claims is that condoms make men infertile - kinda hard to argue with that, since if you use condoms you shouldn’t be getting anyone pregnant.
But most of the other arguments are just nuts. Arguments like “Condoms were invented by white people to reduce the number of Africans!” and things like that. Of course, the fact that this directly contradicts the “AIDS was invented by white people to reduce the number of Africans!” is ignored, in exactly the same way as every conspiracy theory ignores its own contradictory elements. The whole thing is very, very similar to the anti-vaxxer, anti-mask, anti-lockdown garbage being spread around these days.
It just goes to show, imaginative stupidity is universal and timeless.

奇怪的是，在非洲也有很多阴谋论者拒绝使用避孕套，尽管它一次又一次被证明是预防艾滋病的最好方法。比较理智的说法是，避孕套会让男性不孕——这一点很难反驳，因为如果你使用避孕套，你就不应该让任何人怀孕。
但除此之外，大多数争论都是疯狂的。诸如“避孕套是白人发明的，目的是为了减少非洲人的数量!”诸如此类的事情。但显然，“艾滋病是白人为了减少非洲人的数量而发明的!”被忽略了。就像每一个阴谋论都忽略了它自身的矛盾因素一样。整个事情非常非常相似，反疫苗，反口罩，反隔离这类垃圾观点这些天四处传播。
这恰恰表明，富有想象力的愚蠢是普遍的，永恒的。

Jill Friedman
The Black Plague didn't even disappear. It's usually called bubonic plague and it still exists and is spread by rodents. We can manage it better now because it's bacterial and is treated with antibiotics. But it's still dangerous and deadly if untreated.
The Black Plague would kill off all the people in a town or village and then die off in that location after running out of hosts. But it still existed in other places. It was called the Black Plague because in its septicemic form can cause bleeding under the skin and the blood collecting under the skin would make the skin appear black. In it's pneumonic form it can be spread airborne. A truly horrible disease.

黑死病根本没有消失。它通常被称为腺鼠疫，现在仍然存在，由啮齿动物传播。我们现在可以更好地处理它，因为它是细菌，用抗生素治疗。但如果不治疗，它仍然是危险和致命的。
黑死病会杀死一座城镇或村庄里的所有人，然后在宿主耗尽后在那个地方死亡。但它仍然存在于其他地方。它被称为黑死病，因为败血症会导致皮肤下出血，皮肤下的血液聚集会使皮肤看起来黑色。在肺炎形式下，它可以通过空气传播。
这是一种可怕的疾病。

Fanny Crumble
What I don't get, is that a lot of the disinformation is being spruiked by people who aren't doctors, virologists or medical sciencey at all. How do so many people think they know more than DOCTORS or SCIENTISTS who have studied these exact things? I have no reason to think I would know even a bees dick of the stuff these people know. And you trust them when they prescribe say, the pill, or antibiotics, or insulin. Why, all of a sudden, is this the thing people think they are more knowledgeable than actual professionals? It's really fucking weird to me.

我不明白的是，很多虚假信息是由那些根本不是医生、病毒学家或医学科学家的人煽动的。为什么这么多人认为他们知道的比研究这些事情的医生或科学家多?……
为什么突然之间，人们会认为自己比真正的专业人士更有知识?这对我来说真的很奇怪。

Michael Daly
As a former radiographer I heartily second every word in your post. If people could only see what x-rays of fluid-filled lungs look like as well as the impact on the person's breathing capability they would follow medical advice and not political blathering.
Politicians like Texas' Abbott and Florida's DeSantis (DeathSantis is a better moniker) have no interest in the welfare of their constituents only how does their stand enthrall their base.
Covid doesn't care about politics as it only cares about its next opportunity to mutate and carry on in a world where common sense has to pass a litmus test of ideological purity.
People talk about going back to normal not realizing this is the new normal and we best pay attention else it's going to get a lot worse.

作为一名前放射技师，我由衷地赞同你帖子中的每一个字。如果人们能看到充满液体的肺部的x光片是什么样子，以及它对人的呼吸能力的影响，他们就会听从医疗建议，而不是政治废话。
像德克萨斯州的阿伯特和佛罗里达州的德桑提斯这样的政客对选民的福利毫无兴趣，他们只关心自己的立场如何吸引他们的基础选民。
新冠病毒不关心政治，它只关心在常识必须通过意识形态纯洁性检验的世界里，它的下一个变异和继续发展的机会。
人们谈论回归正常生活，却没有意识到这是新常态，我们最好注意，否则情况会变得更糟。

C.S. Friedman
Immunity that is aquired by infection with an actual disease sometimes last longer than a vaccine version.
But it also requires you contract the disease. With polio, that means risking paralysis. Measles can do damage to one’s entire immune system, wiping out immunities one had previously earned. It can also cause brain damage. HPV can cause cancer.
So, it depends on how you are definiing “better”.

通过感染一种真正的疾病而获得的免疫力有时比疫苗的免疫力持续的时间更长。
但这也需要你感染疾病。对于小儿麻痹症患者来说，这意味着有瘫痪的危险。麻疹会对人的整个免疫系统造成损害，摧毁人以前获得的免疫系统。它还会导致大脑损伤。HPV（人类乳头瘤病毒）会导致癌症。
所以，这取决于你如何定义“更好”。

Emery Larick
“It’s just a pity that anti-vaxxers take innocent bystanders with them as they fall.”
It really is because otherwise, I’d cheer these dolts on.

“只是遗憾的是，反疫苗者在他们倒下的时候带走了无辜的旁观者。”
真的，不然的话，我会为这些笨蛋加油的。

Kevin McLauchlan
This is why I favor the use of electronic, crypto-protected/verified vaccine ‘passports’. Government would use it in limited circumstances, like air travel and some other situations, and yes that is coercion (before somebody starts screamin’ about that…).
But mostly it would be a trusted, standardized document that event venues and businesses and schools and services could use to protect their employees and their patrons/clients/customers. And that would be voluntary. Or, at least it would be as voluntary as can be, on the part of the business owner, with one’s insurers and lawyers breathing down one’s neck about liability and rate increases or even non-insurability if one doesn’t screen the denizens of the cesspool from entering one’s establishment.
Hospitals, daycares, barber shops and salons, restaurants, physio/massage clinics and chiros, sports venues, people wanting vaccinated workers to repair their plumbing or install their new windows or their new kitchen-and-vanity countertops, or personal support workers coming into homes or working at LTC facilities… and the list goes on… any situation where somebody is breathing the same air in close quarters.

这就是为什么我赞成使用电子的、加密保护的/经过验证的疫苗“护照”。政府会在有限的情况下使用它，比如航空旅行和其他一些情况，是的，这是强制性的。
但最重要的是，它将是一份可信的、标准化的文件，供活动场所、企业、学校和服务机构使用，以保护他们的员工、顾客/客户。……
医院、日托所、理发店和沙龙、餐馆、理疗/按摩诊所、运动场所……人们希望接种疫苗的工作人员来修理他们的管道或安装他们的新窗户。因为所有人在有限的距离里，都呼吸着同一片空气。

Al Klein
They’re the “same immunity”, but “natural immunity”, meang that you got the disease, can kill you, vaccinations can’t. (And with COVID, vaccination immunity, with the proper number of boosters - which we don’t know yet - seems to confer longer-lasting immunity.)

它们是一样的，但是“自然免疫”，意味着你得了疾病，它可以杀死你，接种疫苗不会。
(至于新冠病毒，疫苗免疫，加上别的辅助措施——我们还不知道——似乎能带来更持久的免疫力。)

Rob Eggleston
While your right the disease can kill you, with only a survival rate of 99.9% if your healthy, the vaccines can also kill you or give you blood clots, or myorcarditis, or perocarditis, paralysis, severe long term pain etc. One study out of Japan listed natural immunity to be as much as 27 times stronger than the vaccinated at 6 months. I for one had Covid apparently in March of 2020. Never had a symptom. I have had 2 antibody tests since, the last just 3 months ago, the other 8 months prior. Per my doctor my antibody levels are at similiar levels which he said per the numbers were outstanding after the 8 month seperation let alone the suspected infection in March of 2020.
As for being the same immunity it’s not exactly correct. The vaccine immunity seems to be more targeted by to a specific part of the virus protein vs. the natural immunity seems to be a more widely spread in it’s ability to recognize the virus. Also depending on your immune system, natural immunity seems to last longer.

是啊，你说得对。这种疾病可以杀死你，如果你是健康的，存活率“只”有99.9%。疫苗也可以杀死你或使你血栓、心肌炎、心包炎，瘫痪，严重的长期疼痛等。日本的一项研究表明，在6个月时，自然免疫力比接种疫苗强27倍。我在2020年3月感染了新冠病毒。从没出现过症状，从那以后我做了两次抗体测试，最后一次是3个月前，另外一次是8个月前。据我的医生说，我的抗体水平接近这一水平，他说，在8个月的隔离后，这些数字很惊人，更不用说2020年3月的疑似感染了。
至于两者的免疫效果是否一样也不确定。疫苗的免疫似乎更容易针对病毒蛋白质的特定部分，而自然免疫似乎更加广泛，并且可以识别病毒。自然免疫似乎持续时间更长，当然这也取决于你的免疫系统。

Al Klein
Blood clots appear to be a) a problem with only a single class of COVID vaccine and b) applicable to only women of childbearing age. mRNA vaccines don’t cause clots.
The incidence of death caused by COVID vaccine is, so far, 0.000%. The incidence of death after having received the vaccine is higher. But so is the incidence of being hit by a city buss after having been vaccinated. Does the vaccine attract city buses? (IOW, try to separate correlation from causation.)
More than one study has found “natural immunity” wearing off a lot sooner than 6 months. Try to fact-check your sources.
COVID can give you myorcarditis, perocarditis, paralysis, severe long term pain, severe long-term respiratory deficit, severe muscle damage all over the body … and severe agony before the inevitable death. That’s been the case in almost 100% of COVID deaths. And vaccine-caused long-term problems? About 0%. (Post hoc ergo propter hoc is a fallacy, not an argument.)
Vaccine immunity will soon confer immunity against Delta and Mu. Natural immunity, unless you get hit with at least 3 variants, won’t.
Bottom line - you have no “right to infect”. You have no “right to kill”. But the government does have the right to force you to be vaccinated (by at least two Supreme Court decisions that have never even been questioned). Forced total quarantine has also been legal for at least 70 years. You (generically, not personally) don’t want to be vaccinated? No problem. Just call when you’re ready to be, because you don’t get to open an external door or window in your house until you do.

1.血栓似乎是因为: a)个别疫苗的问题；b)只出现于育龄妇女中；mRNA疫苗不会引起血栓。
2. 到目前为止，新冠疫苗导致的死亡发生率为0.000%。事故死亡率比接种疫苗的死亡率更高。换句话说，被公交车撞死的概率都比接种疫苗高。
3. 不止一项研究发现，“天然免疫力”在6个月内就会消失。试着对你的消息来源进行事实核查。
4. “疫苗也可以杀死你或使你血栓、心肌炎、心包炎，瘫痪，严重的长期疼痛等……”
几乎所有新冠肺炎死亡病例都有这些症状。至于疫苗引起的长期问题，约等于0%。
5. 疫苗免疫将很快赋予对德尔塔和穆（Mu）的免疫。而自然免疫，除非你被至少三种变体攻击，否则不会。
6.底线在于——你没有“感染的权利”，你没有“杀人的权利”。但是政府确实有权强迫你接种疫苗(至少有两项最高法院的判决从未被质疑过)。强制全面隔离至少70年来也是合法的。你不想接种疫苗?没有问题。等你准备好了再说吧，因为在你准备好之前你是无法打开外面的门或窗户的。

Tim Cole
I applaud your efforts, Al. Perhaps someone will read your words and learn something. Unfortunately, it’s pretty obvious the conspiracy floggers won’t listen.

为你的努力鼓掌。也许有人会读你的话并从中学到一些东西。
但不幸的是，那些阴谋论者是不会听的。

Al Klein
Oh, I don’t expect them to. But after - what’s it been, 4 weeks of fighting my way out of a breakthrough - if they all want to die of COVID, and take their kids with them, I have no problem.

我没指望他们会。但经过了4周的努力，终于取得了突破。如果他们都想死于新冠肺炎，并带走他们的孩子，我没有问题。

Miguel Valdespino
Vaccines use the same immune system that the actua pathogens trigger. There aren’t likely enough differences for 10x difference. One difference is that vaccine immunity all triggers off of the characteristics in the vaccine, while natural immunity can trigger off any characteristics in the virus. The parts chosen when making the vaccine are chosen for strength of reaction, and may have less longevity.

疫苗激活的免疫系统与致病菌激活的免疫系统相同。不太可能有10倍的差异。
不同之处在于，疫苗免疫都是由疫苗的特性触发的，而自然免疫可以由病毒的任何特性触发。
制作疫苗时选择的部分是根据反应强度而选择的，可能没那么持久。

Mike Miller
Is natural immunity 10x better than vaccination immunity?
Generally natural immunity, rather than training your immune system with a vaccine, is less effective. For example, in a third of COVID infections humans don’t produce any antibodies and thus gain no defense against COVID-19, while natural immunity lasts less time than vaccination’s immunity. For details, please see:
Natural immunity also comes with a lot of other drawbacks. Typically, you need to get sick, potentially very sick, to gain resistance to a virus. Smallpox infections gave immunity but the infections were usually miserable and very life-threatening. Chickenpox infections give immunity but can also lead to shingles later in life. You don’t have those problems with the vaccines for smallpox and chickenpox.

“天然免疫是否比疫苗免疫好10倍?”
一般来说，自然免疫比用疫苗训练你的免疫系统更低效。例如，在三分之一的新冠感染中，人类不会产生任何抗体，因此无法抵御新冠病毒，并且自然免疫比疫苗免疫持续时间短。详情请参阅:
链接略
自然免疫也伴随着许多其他缺点。通常情况下，你需要生病，可能病得很严重，才能获得对病毒的抵抗力。天花感染能产生免疫力，但感染通常是痛苦的，危及生命。水痘感染会产生免疫力，但也会在以后的生活中导致带状疱疹。天花和水痘疫苗没有这些问题。