三体社区讨论：对程心的再探讨-网帖翻译-龙腾网

the_Demongod
If you base your understanding of the story on individuals being "good" or "bad" you're missing the point

如果你是根据个体的“善”或“恶”来理解这个故事的，那你就遗漏了重点。

Of course it’s not. I never once said it was. I specifically said that CX was not good at doin her job. Wade would have been “more good” at deterring and then developing light speed travel. If you’re adding a moral element to that, that’s on you.

（楼主）当然没有。我从来没有这么说过。我说得很明确了，程心是不擅长完成自己的工作。本来维德就“更擅长”威慑，也更擅长之后的光速旅行技术研发。你愿意往里头添加道德元素，那是你的事。

Moral “good” (henceforth referred to as “Good”) doesn’t come into play when I say that CX was “bad” at both her jobs.

当我说程心从事的两份工作都是她“不擅长”的，道德层面的“善”（在下文中简称为“善”）并没有在其中发挥什么作用。

If you want to take it in that direction, one could easily argue that both Wade and CX are pursuing Good in their own ways. Of course that argument would be based on ones interpretation of Good.

如果你想从这个方向去解读，那人们可以很容易地辩称“维德和程心都在以自己的方式追求善。”当然了，该主张还取决于人们对“善”的具体诠释。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

I would associate Good with an act that prolongs human civilization because human life has intrinsic value. “Bad” is any act that increases human pain and suffering.

我会把善和延续人类文明的大行联系起来，因为人命有其内在的价值。而任何加重人类苦痛折磨的行为都是“恶”。

At this scale (mundicide, etc.), I don’t think it’s totally off base to make an ends justify the means argument. That is to say, “survival of as many as possible, no matter the cost”. If it’s successful at ensuring the preservation of humanity, it’s justifiable. This is of course an argument that can only be made after the fact. In fact, it’s appeal fades rapidly as soon as people move past the threat.

考虑到这样的数量级（蓄意屠杀等等），我认为去主张“为达目的可以不择手段” 也不尽然是错的。也就是说“让尽可能多的人活下来，无论付出怎样的代价”。如果这么做能成功确保人类的存续，那就是正当的。当然，只有在尘埃落定后方能抛出这样的主张。事实上，一旦人们摆脱了威胁，该主张的吸引力就会迅速减退。

We saw this with Luo Ji’s spell. People were awed at first. Grateful to this man for discovering a fundamental truth of the universe. Very quickly however, he was turned on and looked at as a monster for potentially killing a civilization.

我们在罗辑的咒语中就见出了这一点。一开始，世人们惊畏不已。多亏这个男人，才揭示出一条关于这个宇宙的基本真理。不过很快他受到了世人的攻击，还被看成有可能屠戮了一个文明的怪物。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

Moral arguments are hard to make with this book. They’re especially weird when it comes to past events for which we have the benefit of hindsight.

对这本书进行道德论证是很困难的。只要我们去事后诸葛亮地对过往的事件作道德论证，就会特别奇怪。

goreclawtherender
Cheng Xin was both. She was the fucking worst, because she was too good. If she hadn't been as good, she wouldn't have fucked up being the swordholder. If she hadn't been as good, she wouldn't have shut down the Halo Group. Cheng Xin was a genuinely good person who wanted to help, and that was her flaw.

程心是善恶兼备的。就因为她太善了，所以她成了最TMD恶的那位。如果她不这么善良，她就不会搞砸执剑人的工作。如果她不这么善良，她就不会关停星环集团。程心是个彻头彻尾的好人，一心想济世，而这就是她的缺陷。

I think Death's End is pretty clear about asking the question of "If it means losing your humanity to survive, is that a worthwhile sacrifice?" But it feels like a lot of fans just want badass mary sue protagonist stuff...?

（回）我认为《死神永生》非常明确地问出了这个问题：“如果活下去的代价是抛弃我们的人性，那是否值得作出这样的牺牲呢？”，不过感觉上，很多书粉只想看又拽又坏、玛丽苏式的主人公？
（译注：“玛丽苏”式角色抓住了普通读者渴望浪漫和逆袭的潜意识，能将读者自己投射到主角身上享受到虚妄的快感）
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

F NO, Cheng Xin has very right to ask herself the question such as "If it means losing your humanity to survive, is that a worthwhile sacrifice?" and choose to sacrifice her worthless life, but who gave her the right to make this decision for other people? who gave her the right to decide the entire human race to die so that she kept her humanity ?

（回）才不是呢，程心太有权利问自己这个问题了，“如果活下去的代价是抛弃我们的人性，那是否值得作出这样的牺牲呢？”，然后选择把自己那条毫无价值的生命牺牲掉，但谁给了她权力为其他人作这个决定？谁给了她权力，让她为了保住自己的人性而决定让全人类去死？

My answer is "yes" it is a worthwhile sacrifice! It's a sacrifice that Wade already made on an individual level. Wade was the brutal psychopath who would have upheld deterrence (meaning he had the mental fortitude to press a button that would bring about the destruction of the solar system). Wade was the "general" who would have ordered his troops to use their anti-matter bullets to protect the Halo Group and it's research into curvature propulsion.
Wade sacrificed his own humanity for who knows why. Glory? A desire to be remembered? I can't say, but in sacrificing his humanity, he could have saved the rest of humanity.
He could have prolonged the existence of human civilization in the solar system so that people could continue loving each other and reading poetry and making art, that is to say, doing all of the thing's that Cheng Xin valued and embodied.

（回）我的回答是“值得”，这是值得付出的牺牲。这是维德在个人层面上已经作出的牺牲。韦德是那种残忍的精神变态，如果是他，就会坚持展开威慑了（这就意味着他的心态足够坚毅，有能力按下这个会导致太阳系毁灭的按钮）。韦德是那种“将才”，他本来会命令他的部队使用反物质子弹来保卫星环集团及其曲率推进研究的。
韦德牺牲了自己的人性，背后的原因又有几人知呢。为了荣誉？渴望被世人铭记？我是吃不准，但他通过牺牲自己的人性，本可以拯救其他人类的。
他本可以延长人类文明在太阳系中的存在，这样人们就可以继续相爱，继续阅读诗歌，创造艺术，也就是说，他做到的全都是程心珍视且以程心为象征的事情。

I mean I get it...but in the end, pressing the button dooms the solar system anyway. So it strikes me as kind of odd when people shout "Cheng Xin doomed humanity by not pressing the button....which would have (and did) doomed humanity!"
It's meant to be an impossible, completely ridiculous and no-win situation. The singer part is meant to illustrate that, right? No matter what schemes they came up with, we all get flattened one way or another.

（回）我的意思是我理解.....可是到最后，只要按下按钮，无论如何都会给太阳系判死刑。因此，当有人喊出“因为程心没按按钮，人类死定了....，这种操作本会（也确实）害死人类”时，我就觉得有点奇怪了。
这注定了是一个无药可救的、完全荒唐且没有胜算的局面。歌者那部分本就是为了阐明这一点的，不是吗？无论他们想出什么样的计划，我们都会以这样或那样的方式被扫荡干净。

For deterrence to be effective, that is to say for it to deter a strike from ever happening, the enemy needs to know that you’re serious about pushing the button. If they think you’re not, they’ll attack.

（回）要使威慑奏效，也就是说，要让它阻止打击的发生，敌人就需要知道你对于按下按钮是认真的。如果它们认为你不是认真的，它们就会发起攻击。

This is what real life nuclear deterrence is based on. The president of the United States has sole authority to launch a retaliatory nuclear strike at anyone that launches one at the US. There is not a single that the president has to ask or get past in order to launch. This is key. If Russia knows that the president needs congressional authorization or something to launch a retaliatory strike and they figure out it take X minutes to do so, Russia knows it has to get its nuked within Y minutes away and target our missile sites first and then it’s game over.
Of course it’s more complicated what with mobile missiles and bombs that are in submarines and planes, but that’s the gist of it.

这就是现实生活中核威慑的基石。只有美国总统一人有权对任何向美国发射核弹的国家发起报复性核打击。总统想要发射时，不需要询问或通过任何一个人。这就是关键。如果俄罗斯了解到，美国总统需要国会授权或其他程序才能发起报复性核打击，而经过他们的琢磨，这个过程需要X分钟，那俄罗斯就会明白它必须在Y分钟内把核武器发射出去，并且首先瞄准我们的导弹基地，然后游戏就结束了。
当然，这比潜艇和战机上的机动型导弹和炸弹更为复杂，但这就是个中要点。

The main point is that Wade would have pushed the button and Cheng Xin wouldn’t have. I don’t even think we needed Cixin to write that outright like he did. We as the readers got to know the two characters pretty well up the critical point (the droplet attack). I wasn’t confident for a second that Cheng Xin would push the button, but Wade definitely would have. He was a killer! An attempted one at least, although we don’t know what his early CIA career was like.

这里的重点是，维德会按下按钮，而程心不会。我甚至认为，我们都不需要刘慈欣在书中直截了当地点出这一点。作为读者，我们对这两个人物在关键时刻（水滴攻击）的表现有充分的了解。我对程心会按下按钮没有丝毫信心，但维德绝对会按的。他曾经是个杀手！至少也起过杀心，虽然我们并不知道早期他供职中情局的生涯是什么样的。

More to the point, giving up your humanity isn’t actually an option. Everyone loves that trisolarian that gave Earth an out, but he had the same failing. As individuals we are frail, which is why swordholders were doomed to fail, if not with Xin than with someone else. It’s not like nuclear deterrence because those conflicts are at least mostly symmetric, whereas swordholders had far less room for error.

（回）更确切地说，其实抛弃自己的人性并不是一种选择。所有人都很喜欢那位给了地球一条出路的三体人，但它也在同一件事情上失败了。我们作为个体是脆弱的，这就是为什么执剑人注定会失败，就算不由程心铸成，也会由别人铸成。它不像核威慑，因为这类冲突至少在大部分情况下是对称的，而执剑人的犯错空间小很多。

Societies congeal into incredibly inhumane entities, and not only do they trample our individual psyches, but even then they fail to secure their own futures (seen in the book with singer, and in the real world with environmental issues).

社会凝结成了令人难以置信的没有人味儿的实体群，他们不仅践踏我们的个体心魂，而且就算这样，他们也保不住自己的未来（参见书中的歌者，在现实世界的环境问题中也可以看到）。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

The point of the entire series was that all living things build and destroy, sometimes intentionally and sometimes not, sometimes destroy one thing to save another, sometimes wrecking everything. We don't know the result of her last "do the right thing to save the universe" action, but by then it's so little, so late, that it doesn't matter.

（回）全系列的重点在于，所有的生命体都是一边建设一边毁灭，有时是故意的，有时则不是，有时毁灭某个对象是为了拯救另一个对象，还有些时候则会破坏一切。我们并不清楚她最后一次“为拯救这个宇宙做对的事"式的行为会带来何种结果，但到那时作出的努力已经微不足道，也太晚了，已经无济于事了。

A_Young_Kirk_Cameron
“The Solar System humans spilled their last drop of blood to stay with their land—well, save for two drops: you and AA. But what was the point? They didn’t last, and neither did their land. Hundreds of millions of years have passed in the great universe, and do you think anyone still remembers them? This obsession with home and land, this permanent adolescence where you’re no longer children but are afraid to leave home—this is the fundamental reason your race was annihilated.
I think this sums up the failing of the human species in the books. It’s unfair to place the blame for any of it on Chen Xin. She was chosen, after all.

“太阳系人类为他们的土地流尽了最后一滴血,或者说,只剩下你和AA这两滴。可有什么用,还不是消失得无影无踪?现在那个大宇宙可能过去了几亿年,你真以为还有谁记得他们?迷恋土地和家园,已经不是孩子了却还是不敢出远门,这就是你们灭亡的根本原因。”（关一帆）
我认为这段话概括了书中人类的失败之处。把这一切归咎于程心是不公平的。毕竟她是被选出来的。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

Her only failing was being authentic to herself; humanity failed by sexting her.

（层主）她唯一的失败之处就是忠于自己；而人类因为选择了她而终致失败。

It’s also important to note that a dark forest foil strike was coming anyway, since one ultimately arrived even before singer’s foil. Humanity was doomed regardless of her actions as the swordholder.

（回）还需注意到的是，这一点也很重要：反正无论如何，遵循黑暗森林法则的二向箔攻击都将到来，到最后甚至赶在了歌者的二向箔之前就到了。不管她作为执剑人如何行事，人类都已经死定了。