老外提问中国修建长城的努力是否值得，评论区讨论中国的历史及长城的作用
The location (border) of the Great Wall of China. Was it worth the effort?
译文简介
红迪网老外提问中国修建长城的付出是否值得，网友热烈讨论长城存在的意义
正文翻译
The location (border) of the Great Wall of China. Was it worth the effort?
老外提问中国修建长城的努力是否值得，评论区讨论中国的历史及长城的作用
老外提问中国修建长城的努力是否值得，评论区讨论中国的历史及长城的作用
评论翻译
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You're judging its utility by today's China borders.
Here's China's map with elevation during the Qin Dynasty, when the wall was built. You can tell it was built in the area where there weren't many mountain ranges.
你是根据今天中国的边界来判断它的效用的。这是秦朝时期中国地图的海拔图，长城就是在那里建造的。你可以看出，它建造在没有太多山脉的地区。
（作者：这人说的最后一点就是错误的）
Not to mention...
What everyone seems to forget is that even in an all out war, a wall this big disrupts supply chains. An invader either has to demolish portions for access points (giving them weak points to defend) or they have to bring supplies to the wall, lift it over, then lift it back down onto another supply chain.
It's there to create a logistic nightmare for large armies and deter them. Any good general knows an army marches on its stomach.
更不用说。。。似乎每个人都忘记了，即使在全面战争中，这么大的一堵墙也会扰乱供应链。侵略者要么必须拆除部分以获得进入点（给他们留下需要防守的弱点），要么他们必须把物资带到墙边，抬起它，然后再把它放下到另一个供应链上。它的存在是为了给大军制造后勤噩梦并威慑他们。任何优秀的将军都知道，军队是靠肚子行进的。
I think the most important reason was that it was an early warning system that gave the Chinese ability to gather forces and prepare defences before the Mongolian host was able to strike them. It also served as a deterrent against smaller incursions of raiders against which the local garrisons could respond in time or completely deny their ability to launch a raid because they would have to fight and take a section of the wall in order to proceed further or continue without their horses which would significantly lower their area of operation
They basically created a speed bump with an integrated alarm that served its purpose perfectly. Sure the logistical issue was a part of it, but there were also gates and crossings through which an enemy host could pass without a problem once they took it so I doubt that was the main reason why they built the wall
我认为最重要的原因是它是一个早期预警系统，使中国人能够在蒙古军队可以攻击他们之前集结力量并准备防御。它还作为对小规模入侵者的威慑，让当地驻军可以及时作出反应，或者完全阻止他们发起袭击，因为他们必须战斗并夺取长城的一段才能继续前进或在没有马的情况下继续行动，这将大大减少他们的行动范围。他们基本上创造了一个带有集成报警的减速带，它完美地发挥了它的作用。当然，后勤问题也是其中的一部分，但也有大门和通道，敌军一旦占领了它们就可以毫无问题地通过，所以我怀疑这是不是他们建造长城的主要原因。
Also a quick note that Mongolia was just the latest northern power that the wall was utilized against. Before Mongolia, countless groups have risen and fallen beyond the wall. Most people just assume it was built for the Mongolians the whole time. The wall was started before Mongolia was even an entity, interestingly enough
还有一个小提醒，蒙古只是长城被利用对抗的最近的一个北方势力。在蒙古之前，无数的群体在长城之外崛起和衰落，大多数人只是认为长城是为蒙古人建造的。有趣的是，长城是在蒙古甚至成为一个实体之前就开始建造的。
For the most part that's the difference between the Old Norse and modern Scandinavians. Mongols are a descended culture and people from the eastern steppe nomads.
在很大程度上，这就是古挪威人和现代斯堪的纳维亚人之间的区别。蒙古人是东方草原游牧民族的后裔文化。
We don't actually know if the xiongnu were ethnically Mongolian, Turkic, Iranian or something else.
实际上我们不知道匈奴是蒙古族、突厥族、伊朗裔还是别的什么族群
I mean the Turks especially and the Mongols to a great degree united by marriage across many ethnic lines to increase their numbers for military escapades of murderin'.
我的意思是特别是土耳其人、蒙古人在很大程度上通过跨种族的婚姻联合起来，以增加他们的人数，为军事战争做准备
Pretty sure they're Mayan.
我相当确定他们是玛雅人。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Where are their pyramids?
他们的金字塔在哪里？
Left them at home. Do you really think they travel with those ? Way too heavy
把它们留在家里了，你真的认为他们会带着那些旅行吗？太重了。
They were Huns
他们是匈奴人。
Very true. During the wall’s initial construction, the nowadays Mongolian grasssland was settled by an entirely different people. Even when the wall was breached during the Song dynasty by the mongol, it was mostly just Song being likely the weakest dynasty ever militarily wise. The wall truly lower the defensive cost by a lot.
非常正确，在长城建造初期，现在的蒙古草原是由完全不同的人定居的。即使在宋朝时期长城被蒙古人突破，那主要是因为宋朝可能是军事上最弱的朝代。长城真的大大降低了防御成本。
Is this from HBO?
这是来自HBO的吗？（HBO：有线电视网络媒体公司）
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Oh shit I just realized I used the same phrasing as GOT lol also Mongolia was not the *latest power. Manchus breached the wall after Mongolia did, and I believe both times were due to collabs with wall guards so neither had to actually attack it to get over (somebody fact check me on this)
哦，天哪，我刚刚意识到我用了和《权力的游戏》一样的措辞，蒙古人并不是最新的势力，满洲人在蒙古人之后也突破了长城，我相信这两次都是因为和长城得守卫的勾结，所以他们实际上不需要攻击就能越过它（有人能核实一下这个事实吗）。
Mongols tricked the Jin defenders into opening the gates once by baiting them into attacking instead of defending; otherwise the Jin mostly just surrendered without much of a fight. The Ming Great Wall commander, Wu Sangui, defected to the Manchus and opened the gates after the Chinese beheaded his father.
蒙古人曾经通过引诱金朝的守军进攻而非防御，让金朝守军打开过一次城门；除此以外，金朝大多只是不战而退。明朝长城指挥官吴三桂叛逃到了满洲，在中国人斩首他的父亲后打开了城门。
For those curious about Wu Sangui and want to read further, here's an excellent Reddit thread about him and those turbulent times.
对于那些对吴三桂好奇并想进一步了解的人来说，这里有一个关于他和那些动荡时期的优秀Reddit帖子。（附超链接）
Fun fact, one of the last groups that the Great Wall would be used against are the Han Chinese themselves. During the Qing Dynasty, which was founded by the Manchu people, the Great Wall helped to limit the movement of Han Chinese into Manchuria, north of the wall.
有趣的是，长城被用来对抗的最后一个群体之一是汉族人自己。在满族人建立清朝时，长城帮助他们限制了汉族人进入长城以北的满洲地区。
Yes mostly were Turkic
是的，大部分是突厥人
And a means of quickly responding to any attack. It’s like a highway system for movement of troops
长城并且是快速应对任何攻击的一个手段。这就像是一个用于部队调动的高速公路系统。
“But there were also gates and crossings through which an enemy host could pass without a problem once they took it”
The gates had higher concentrations of defenders because of this.
Keep in mind that China wasn't totally isolated from the northern tribes. They traded with them and China often took sides in intertribal conflicts up there in order to redirect their energy.
引用：“但也有大门和通道，一旦敌人占领了它们，就可以轻松地通过。”
所以大门的防御者更为集中。
请记住，中国并没有完全与北方民族隔绝。他们互相进行贸易，中国经常在部落间冲突中偏袒一方，以转移他们的精力。
It would also create a pretty annoying barrier for your average horde of nomadic raiders. Most groups wouldn’t wanna risk it, why go through all the trouble when you can raid outside the walls. Most raiders aren’t trying to conquer they’re just looking for easy targets. The walls didn’t really work when forced to face against very motivated enemy with a massive force not your run of the mill border raiders
它只会对那些普通的游牧掠夺者群体创造一个相当麻烦的障碍。大多数群体不想冒险，当你可以在墙外掠夺时，为什么要自找麻烦。大多数掠夺者并不是试图征服，他们只是在寻找容易的目标下手。当被迫面对一只非常庞大的部队，而不是普通的边境掠夺者，对抗这种非常积极的敌人时，长城并没有真正发挥作用
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
The xiongnu more than Mongolia tbh
说实话，长城用于防御匈奴人多于防御蒙古人
Also the wall itself, if you’ve ever been to it is like a fortified road for the defenders. It follows the contours of the relatively low mountains it is built on so that soldiers can observe any incoming attack and then more soldiers can quickly come and reinforce the area where any attack might be coming.
还有长城本身，如果你去过那里的话，它就像一条为防御者加固的道路。它沿着它建造的相对低矮山脉的轮廓，以便士兵可以观察任何即将到来的攻击，然后更多的士兵可以迅速赶到并加强防御任何可能发生攻击的区域。
My understanding, and what they told me when I visited 9 years ago, was that the wall was largely made to disrupt small scale raiding parties from the steppe nomads to the north in what is today Manchuria. It wouldn’t be a huge impediment in an all out war but it allowed relatively quick warning of an advancing raiding party which were rampant in Chinas northern areas.
以我的理解，以及9年前我访问时他们告诉我的，长城主要是为了扰乱来自今天满洲地区的草原北部游牧民族的小规模掠夺团体。在全面战争中它不会是一个巨大的障碍，但它可以对那些掠夺团体进行相对快速的警告，这些掠夺团体在中国北部地区非常猖獗。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Logistics has less effect in that era than you would think, because the invading side are nomadic tribal cavalry that lives off the land and by pillaging, and don't rely on substantial supply chains.
The real danger is that once they are inside the Wall, they are at huge risk at being cut off from retreat by the much more numerous Chinese defenders, in which the Wall is effective at slowing down or stopping their retreat once the defenders know where they are. The nomadic population sizes can't sustain major casualties and they can't risk being surrounded and destroyed, thus attacks are mainly limited to raids and retreating as fast as possible.
物流在那个时代的影响比你想象的要小，因为入侵方是游牧部落骑兵，他们靠土地和掠夺为生，并不依赖大量的供应链。 真正的危险是，一旦他们进入长城内，他们就有被数量更多的中国守军切断撤退路线的巨大风险，一旦守军知道他们在哪里后，长城就能非常有效的减慢或阻止他们的撤退。游牧人口规模无法承受重大伤亡，他们不能冒被包围和歼灭的风险，因此攻击主要限于快速突袭并在被切断前尽快撤退。
Shows they were clearly not fond of whatever is in the gobi desert. This literally looks like a fantasy map. I love that.
他们显然不喜欢戈壁沙漠里的任何东西。这看起来就像是一个幻想地图。我喜欢这个。
Exactly, and the wall was not built from scratch, it was based on walls which were already there.
确切地说，长城不是从头开始建造的，而是基于已经存在的墙壁。
The original Great Wall (really a series of walls) was built during the Qin but the current wall, which is shown here, is from the Ming.
最初的长城（实际上是一系列墙壁）是在秦朝建造的，但这里展示的当前的墙是明朝的。
Built in an area with not many mountain ranges? Have you seen the Great Wall?
在没有很多山脉的地区建造？你见过长城吗？
（作者：回复第一个人说长城是在没有很多山脉的地方建造的）
Given the proximity to Beijing (knowing that it wasn't the capital at the time in the Qi dynasty) and to the sea, cutting off Mongolia to that access as best as possible was probably a wise move. On the western end, you start getting into arid, mountainous zones that are just...not worth defending, but also probably not worth traversing around either.
考虑到它靠近北京（我知道在秦朝时它不是首都）和海洋，尽可能切断了蒙古的通道可能是明智的举动。在西端，你开始进入干旱的山区，这些地区...不值得防守，但也不值得绕行。
（作者：原文把秦朝说成了齐朝）
The modern wall was built by the Ming. And Beijing has been the capital for the last 700 years.
现代的长城是明朝建造的。北京在过去700年里一直是首都。
Let bro cook lol(its Qin not Qi if Qi united the 7 kingdoms it would be very different today)
兄弟你在说什么，哈哈（秦不是齐，如果齐统一了七国，今天会大不一样）
Why and how? Sounds interesting!
为什么？这听起来很有趣！
Over 2400 years ago Qi was one of the seven most powerful kingdoms, even the most powerful one for a long time, during the warring state, which also had the potential to unit China but got itself invaded and nearly destroyed by Qin's diploma. Qin, on the other hand, used violence and harsh law to unit and rule China, which laid the political and cultural foundation of Chinese dynasties in the next 2000 years. Had Qi united China, it's culture and political hierarchy would have shaped China in a very different way.
2400多年前，齐国是战国时期最强大的七个国家之一，甚至是长期以来最强大的国家，它也有可能统一中国，但被秦国入侵并几乎摧毁。另一方面，秦国用暴力和严酷的法律来统一和统治中国，为中国王朝在接下来的2000年奠定了政治和文化基础。如果齐国统一了中国，它的文化和政治等级制度将以一种截然不同的方式塑造中国。