以色列人对德国人有怨恨吗？（下）
Do Israelis have a grudge against the German people?
译文简介
我知道在我不得不去德国的几次场合中，我常常会想到我看到的那些老德国人，那些在纳粹时代活着并且是青少年或更大的人——“战争期间你们在做什么呢？” 这种感觉在我遇到或看到的年轻德国人中是不存在的。
正文翻译
Michael Davison
I know that on the few occasions I had to be in Germany, I found myself wondering about the older Germans I saw, the ones who were alive and teens or more during the Nazi era—”What were you doing during the war?”
This feeling is absent among the younger Germans I met or saw.
Isn’t it a bit ridiculous to blame an entire current nation today for the deeds of their parents or grandparents? (Not including the neo-Nazis, of course.)
Isn’t this along the same lines as black people in the US hating whites because their great-great-great-grandparents were brought to North America in chains?
How long is it possible to hold a grudge?
我知道在我不得不去德国的几次场合中，我常常会想到我看到的那些老德国人，那些在纳粹时代活着并且是青少年或更大的人——“战争期间你们在做什么呢？” 这种感觉在我遇到或看到的年轻德国人中是不存在的。 责怪整个现代国家的人民因为他们的父母或祖父母的行为，这不是有点荒谬吗？（当然不包括新纳粹分子。） 这是否与美国黑人因为他们的曾曾祖父母被带到北美搁置而憎恨白人的情况类似？ 持怀恨之心能够持续多久？
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Well stated. I’ve done business in Germany on many occasions, and have always been treated warmly and professionally.
On the other hand, I had a very different experience in Austria, where I felt that prejudice towards Jews and anti-Semitism was still quite prent.
说得好。我在德国做过很多次生意，总是受到热情和专业的对待。 另一方面，我在奥地利有过一个非常不同的经历，我感到那里对犹太人的偏见和反犹主义仍然相当普遍。
As an Israeli citizen married to a non-Jewish German, I would say that openly expressing support for the Nazis’ genocidal deeds against the Jews - is a taboo in Germany. Expressing such views is generally frowned upon in Germany and many Germans will openly disassociate themselves from anything to do with the Nazis. The holocaust is regarded by many Germans as a stain on their country's history.
However, stereotypes associating Jews with money and with greed, and regarding Jews as rapacious money-grabbers who use their influence (especially in the USA) to advance their interests (and that of Israel) to the detriment of others - are not uncommon in Germany. Especially among older Germans.
作为以色列公民，娶了一个非犹太德国人的人，我要说，在德国公开表示支持纳粹对犹太人的种族灭绝行为是一个禁忌。在德国，表达这种观点通常是不受欢迎的，许多德国人会公开与任何与纳粹有关的事物划清界限。大屠杀被许多德国人视为他们国家历史上的污点。 然而，在德国，将犹太人与金钱和贪婪联系起来，认为犹太人是贪婪的钱财掠夺者，利用他们的影响力（尤其是在美国）推动他们的利益（以及以色列）损害他人的行为，这样的刻板印象并不少见，特别是在老年德国人中。
I don’t see it as a grudge against the German people. Certainly Germans who were very young in the 1940s could not have shouldered any blame for either active or apathetic involvement in the Holocaust. Germans and collaborating Europeans who participated in the persecutions and murder of Jews will likely be in their 90s today. Not many survive. You can see that some countries continue to pursue charges against those who are still alive, despite their advanced age. Millions of them were never brought to justice, as their leaders were in the Nuremberg and other venues.
我不认为这是对德国人民的怨恨。肯定在1940年代很年轻的德国人无法对大屠杀中的积极或漠视参与承担任何责任。今天活着并参与对犹太人的迫害和谋杀的德国人和合作的欧洲人现在可能已经90多岁了。许多人已经不在人世。你可以看到一些国家继续追究那些仍然活着的人的责任，尽管他们年事已高。数百万人从未受到制裁，因为他们的领导人在纽伦堡和其他地方接受审判。
另一方面，德国试图在一定程度上偿还其对犹太人民的债务，对大屠杀的特定幸存者进行赔偿，以及对以色列的贸易和经济、政治支持。根据索赔会议的说法，自1952年以来的谈判导致德国政府向80多万幸存者支付了700多亿美元的大屠杀赔款。犹太人失去了家人，整个城市和整个文明，这是无法报答的。今天世界上的犹太人可能不是1400万，而是5000万或更多。像许多流散在外的犹太人一样，我一生都在对纳粹及其支持者感到愤怒。向前推进的最佳方式是防止这种种族灭绝和对其他人的迫害再次发生，包括当今世界上的犹太人、穆斯林、WWE和有色人种。
50 million Jews today is doubtful. There were some 15 million Jews in 1950 around the world and 9 million in Europe. 6 million perished. Orthodox Jews have a high birth rate as a method to maintain their race. But if Holocaust didn't happen, I doubt even Orthodox Jews intermingled in Europe would have such high birth rate. And European population is on a decline. Maybe some 4 million more Jews, but 34 million more Jews. No chance.
今天有5千万犹太人是可疑的。1950年，全球约有1500万犹太人，欧洲有900万。600万人丧生。正统犹太人以保持自己种族的方式具有较高的出生率。但如果大屠杀没有发生，我怀疑即使是在欧洲混居的正统犹太人也不会有如此高的出生率。而欧洲人口正在下降。也许会多出400万犹太人，但是多出3400万犹太人的可能性几乎为零。
Germans as individuals are wonderful but as a crowd they are Germans. Go to a soccer game and see. But don’t go by me, I’m still pissed at the Romans for knocking down the Temple.
德国人作为个体是很好的，但作为群体他们就是德国人。去看一场足球比赛，你就会明白。但别听我的，我仍然对罗马人毁坏圣殿感到愤怒。
Historical hatred is just a red herring to camouflage one's own hatred and racist supremist ideals and beliefs.There are prejudicial and bias people in every camp, be it on racial,religious,ethnic or racial grounds! It's shameful and regrettable the media today focuses solely on the 1 percent of the bad apples and actors of the camps I've mentioned, through outright lies and propaganda,followed by each camp making sweeping indictments against every other camp as if all are duplicit
历史仇恨只是为了掩盖自己的仇恨和种族至上主义思想和信念。每个阵营都有偏见和偏见的人，无论是基于种族、宗教、民族还是种族等方面！今天的媒体集中关注这些阵营中的1%个别不良分子和行为者，通过彻头彻尾的谎言和宣传，随后每个阵营都对其他每个阵营进行全面控告，仿佛所有人都是虚伪的。
Michael, at age 85, I am presumably one of those “old Germans” whose past you are wondering about. Well, when I was seven, my family home in Leipzig was bombed out and I had to guide my father, who was blinded in combat in WW I, past puddles of burning phosphor on the street. At 8, I heard my grandmother bawl out two Gestapo officers who showed up in her apartment accusing her of having made seditious remarks in her air raid shelter. “We are monarchists and Christians,“ she told them. „To us, the English, Americans, Jews and Russians are God‘s children. If that‘s seditious, then you must arrest and try me.“ They never came back.
迈克尔，我85岁了，我可能是你所好奇的那些“老德国人”之一。嗯，当我7岁时，我家在莱比锡被炸毁，我不得不引导我在第一次世界大战中失明的父亲穿过街道上燃烧的磷光。8岁时，我听到我奶奶在家里大吼两名盖世太保官兵，他们闯进她的公寓指控她在防空洞里发表了煽动性言论。“我们是君主主义者和基督徒，”她告诉他们。“对我们来说，英国人、美国人、犹太人和俄罗斯人都是上帝的孩子。如果这是煽动性的话，那么你们必须逮捕并审判我。”他们再也没有回来。
我奶奶对他们来说太勇敢了。我还可以告诉你，当年我是如何得知奥斯维辛的，以及我是如何遵循西德第一任总统泰奥多·豪斯的建议，即所有德国人都必须为以他们的名义犯下的罪行感到集体羞耻。我们感到羞耻，而且仍然感到羞耻，但并不感到有罪，因为八岁的孩子们不应对大屠杀负责。我也知道我父亲在1933年投票给了哪个党：国民人民党（DVP）。我母亲那时还太年轻，如果她还活着，现在应该已经107岁了。我的奶奶是萨克森王室的狂热拥护者，韦廷家族，欧洲最古老的王室之一。英国女王是韦廷家族的后裔。
I’m an American Jew who first visited Germany in 1993, only 48 years after the end of the war. I definitely felt odd seeing anyone there aged 60 and up, wondering if they’d been partially responsible for killing many of my relatives, or, even if not, if they’d turned a blind eye to the abuse and torment of German Jews in the 1930s. I’m thinking now anyone left there who was a teen or older then would be in their 90’s or older. Not really an issue now.
我是一名美国犹太人，1993年首次访问德国，距离战争结束仅48年。看到60岁以上的任何人都会感到奇怪，想知道他们是否部分地对杀害我的许多亲戚负有责任，或者即使没有，是否他们在上世纪30年代对德国犹太人的虐待和折磨视而不见。我现在想，任何当时年龄为十几岁或更大的人现在都应该是90岁以上。现在不是问题了。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
I was with you until the last paragraph. I do not see too many African-Americans holding a grudge for what happened hundreds of years ago. Their grievances are overwhelmingly about what is happening today, including an unwillingness to acknowledge the continuum of history from 1619 to the present, not just slavery but Jim Crow, including segregation and lynchings, not just Jim Crow, but recent attempts to suppress the right to vote , alongside a continued inability to live the same as other citizens of European ancestry. Ahmad Arbery was hunted and murdered, and authorities saw video yet failed to take action until there was a public outcry and demonstrations. That is a grudge from yesterday not 400 years ago.
我同意你直到最后一段。我并没有看到太多非裔美国人因数百年前发生的事情而心存怨恨。他们的不满主要是关于今天发生的事情，包括不愿承认从1619年到现在的历史连续性，不仅是奴隶制，还有吉姆·克劳法、种族隔离和私刑，不仅仅是吉姆·克劳法，还有最近试图压制选举权，以及持续无法与其他欧洲血统的公民同等生活。艾哈迈德·阿伯里被追捕并谋杀，当局看到视频却直到有公众强烈抗议和示威才采取行动。这是昨天的怨恨，而不是400年前的。
To this day, when i see an old German. I wonder what they did during the war. Obviously, most Germans who were ten or older by 1945 are mostly dead now. I would say that up to the early 70s, there were many American Jews that would not buy German cars. Havings that, many of the taxis in Israel were German during that period. Germany has been a good ally to Israel for many years and does go out of its way to provide material and financial help to Israel. Ever Jew and every Israeli has their own relationship with Germany and Germans
直到今天，当我看到一个老德国人时，我会想到他们在战争中做了什么。显然，大多数在1945年前已经十岁或更大的德国人现在大多已经去世了。我会说，直到70年代初，有许多美国犹太人不会购买德国车。在那个时期，以色列许多出租车都是德国制造的。德国多年来一直是以色列的好盟友，并且竭尽全力向以色列提供物质和财政帮助。每个犹太人和以色列人与德国人有着自己的关系。
Sam, my father-in-law, was a holocaust survivor, liberated from Auschwitz by the allies in January 1945. He ended up in Southern California where he owned a small chain of electronic stores. He always drove a german car. When I asked him why did he buy german after all they did to him and his family, he said proudly poking his thumb into his chest, “They work for me now!”
Sam，我的岳父是一位大屠杀幸存者，在1945年1月被盟军从奥斯维辛集中营解救出来。他最终定居在加利福尼亚南部，在那里拥有一家小型电子商店连锁店。他总是开德国车。有一次我问他为什么在他和他的家人遭受的一切后还购买德国车，他骄傲地指着自己的胸膛说：“现在他们为我工作！”
My Jewish Dad was raised by his adopted German American step father and that is why this Anglo Irish Jewish person has a German last name. To paint a whole group of people with hatred would be the same as what the NAZIS did to the Jews. Jews should be better than that and see people as individuals. I don't hate Germans or I would be hating my relatives who raised my dad with much love and care.
我的犹太父亲是由他的美国德国籍继父抚养长大的，这就是为什么这个英国爱尔兰犹太人有一个德国姓氏的原因。对整个群体怀有仇恨将会与纳粹对待犹太人的方式相同。犹太人应该比这更好，应该把人看作个体。我不憎恨德国人，否则我会在憎恨养育我父亲的家人。
I disagree. 1945 Germany should have been bombed to the Stone Age. It wasn’t like only the German leadership was responsible . The German people were complicit with the war crimes they committed . What they did couldn’t have been done without full partnership of the people
我不同意。1945年的德国应该被炸到石器时代。不仅仅是德国领导层负有责任，德国人民也参与了他们所犯下的战争罪行。如果没有人民的全力合作，那些事情是无法完成的。
I used to go shooting with an old Jewish guy who fled the Nazis as a child. He drove a Mercedes and I did raise this with him once. He said he avoided German cars until the wartime generation was no longer building them. He had no issue with younger generations so was quite happy to buy car they had made.
I guess it was his way of dealing with things and not a wholly irrational reasoning.
我曾经和一个逃离纳粹的犹太老人一起去射击。他开的是一辆梅赛德斯奔驰，我曾经问过他这个问题。他说他一直避免购买德国车，直到战时一代人不再制造它们。他对年轻一代没有问题，所以很高兴购买他们制造的汽车。我想这是他处理事情的方式，而不是完全不理性的推理。
My father and uncles were all in the Kriegsmarine or Wehrmacht in WW2. I was born in 1947 and in conversations with my parents about the Holocaust they were shocked and ashamed when after the end of the war they learned about death camps and the GENO.... committed. Years later in 1964 after migrating to Australia I met a Jewish girl however, after a brief introduction to her parents I was asked to leave and not return as I was German. Thankfully those days are behind us and the first member of our family now lives in Netanya in Israel married to a Jewish man. We have also supported Jewish charitable causes, purchased Israeli made goods and support Israel’s right to exist as a sovereign nation.
我的父亲和叔叔们都在第二次世界大战中服役于德国海军或国防军。我出生于1947年，在与我的父母谈论大屠杀时，他们在战争结束后得知集中营和种族灭绝罪行时感到震惊和羞愧。多年后的1964年，我移民到澳大利亚后遇到了一个犹太女孩，然而，在与她父母简短见面后，我被要求离开并且不要再回去，因为我是德国人。幸运的是，那些日子已经过去了，我们家族的第一位成员现在住在以色列的内坦亚，嫁给了一个犹太人。我们也支持犹太慈善事业，购买以色列商品，并支持以色列作为一个主权国家存在的权利。
I know older Israelis who were alive during the Holocaust who do. But I can say categorically that the vast majority of younger Israelis do not. Germany has been a good friend to Israel for decades, and many Israelis go to Berlin for study or to live for a while.
我认识一些在大屠杀期间还活着的以色列人确实会。但我可以明确地说，绝大多数年轻以色列人并不会。德国几十年来一直是以色列的好朋友，许多以色列人去柏林学习或生活一段时间。
It’s a wide spectrum, imo.
There are still Israelis alive, not all of them old age pensioners, who would not own a German-made vehicle, nor visit Germany.
There are still Israelis alive, not all of them old age pensioners, who abhor Wagner being played in Israel.
And there are many, lots of Israelis, some more knowledgeable than others, who are mostly ‘at peace’ with today’s Germany and most German people.
这是一个广泛的范围，依我看。 仍然有以色列人活着，不都是老年养老金领取者，他们不会拥有德国制造的汽车，也不会访问德国。 仍然有以色列人活着，不都是老年养老金领取者，他们憎恶在以色列播放瓦格纳的行为。 还有许多以色列人，一些比其他人更有知识，他们大多数对今天的德国和大多数德国人都“和平相处”。
As a German living in Israel I can say some do, but the majority does not.
I came to the country because I LOVE LOVE Israeli culture, food, music, everything. When Israelis know you love their country and you are open-minded to talk to Israelis, study Hebrew, learn about Judaism and let them know that you are interested in a friendship, Israelis are the first people to invite you to their home and yes, also to Shabbat diners or take you with to the Synagogue.
Well, to be honest, Israelis are one of the kindest people, very direct, they dont like when you feel ashamed about yourself, dont hide behind someone you are not, be yourself. The people in Israel will notice when you are not yourself and that is way worse than “being German”. I came to Israel and felt ashamed to be German, but Israelis taught be to be shamelessly myself.
作为居住在以色列的德国人，我可以说有些人会，但大多数人不会。 我来到这个国家是因为我热爱以色列的文化、食物、音乐等一切。当以色列人知道你热爱他们的国家，你乐意与以色列人交谈，学习希伯来语，了解犹太教，并让他们知道你对建立友谊感兴趣时，以色列人是第一个邀请你来家里的人，甚至邀请你参加安息日晚餐或带你去犹太教堂。说实话，以色列人是最善良的人，非常直接，他们不喜欢你感到羞耻，不要隐藏自己，做自己。以色列人会注意到当你不是真实的自己时，这比“德国人”更糟糕。我来到以色列感到羞耻是因为我是德国人，但以色列人教会我毫不羞耻地做自己
当然，我来以色列的时候就知道，并非每个人都会喜欢我，也不是每个人都能原谅德国人，有些人受到了如此严重的创伤，他们永远也不会和德国人交谈，我完全可以理解。大屠杀的恐怖如此悲剧，我仍然无法理解，人们怎么可能对其他人做出这样的事情。我的文化的丑陋一直在困扰着我，这让我更加意识到，与受到伤害的人和文化进行交流是彼此和解的最好方式，相互给予帮助。
真正的生活在那里，自2002年以来我与一个以色列人结婚。我现在也正在转变成犹太教。我建议每个德国人去以色列亲自了解。生活从来不是非黑即白，有些人会憎恨你，有些人不会。只要做自己，并对以色列文化表示尊重，你就不会遇到任何问题。
It’s complicated, but mostly Israelis have a positive view of modern German people. Germany as a country has been very supportive of Israel, both politically and materially - being a main weapon development partner (the Merkava MBT is mostly built in Germany), paying massive amounts of reparations for the country and also paying pensions for surviving Jews who worked in Nazi occupied Europe (as slave labor!). Kind of crazy that they kept such meticulous records of their slave laborers they were able to do that, I would imagine that is the only time in history that happened. German engineering is also widely celebrated as high quality, and it is quite a marketing tool to have a “Made in Germany” sticker.
这很复杂，但大多数以色列人对现代德国人持积极态度。作为一个国家，德国对以色列在政治和物质上都非常支持，是主要的武器开发伙伴（梅卡瓦主战坦克主要在德国制造），为该国支付了巨额赔偿金，还为在纳粹占领欧洲工作的犹太幸存者支付养老金（作为奴隶劳工！）。德国工程技术也被广泛认为是高质量的，拥有“德国制造”标签是一种非常好的营销手段。