为什么印度不像中国那样对Su-35和阵风战斗机进行逆向工程，并利用技术转让在印度制造更便宜的阵风战斗机复制品？KB：要逆向工程一架Su-35或者Rafale几乎是不可能的！

Why does India not reverse engineer Su-35 and Rafale and use tech transfer to make cheaper copies of Rafale in India like China does?

2024-02-02 驿路遛马 16745 79 92 收藏纠错&举报

译文简介

当你想要逆向工程一架战斗机时，你并不是在逆向工程一架飞机。你是在逆向工程制造这片涡轮叶片的铸造厂。你是在逆向工程涉及其中的材料科学。你是在逆向工程制造这些零件的铣床。你是在逆向工程制造出异国情调的超纯金属合金的冶炼厂。你是在逆向工程飞行航空电子学中的软件，装配飞机的制造过程，以及在那些冶炼厂和铣床上工作的熟练劳动力。

正文翻译

评论翻译

Kanthaswamy Balasubramaniam
This Reverse Engineering Business is HIGHLY EXAGGERATED

这种逆向工程的说法被严重夸大了。

Its one thing to reverse engineer a Tubelight or a Toy Helicopter.

逆向工程一支荧光灯或者一架玩具直升机是一回事。

Its next to impossible to Reverse Engineer a Su-35 or a Rafale. In fact it would require far more talent to reverse engineer these specs than to learn the concepts and do the entire thing from scratch.

要逆向工程一架Su-35或者Rafale几乎是不可能的。事实上，逆向工程这些规格需要的才华远远超过从头学习概念并从零开始完成整个项目。

Maybe the Design can be copied but there are too many things in an aircraft and its just impossible to split it open and reverse engineer.

也许设计可以被复制，但飞机里有太多的东西，拆开并逆向工程几乎是不可能的。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

Its the same as taking a Coca Cola Drink- reverse engineering the chemicals and percentage and developing Boca Cola. It would be easier to use your own mix of chemicals and improvise till you get a good taste.

这就像拿着一瓶可乐，逆向工程其中的化学成分和比例，然后制造出“Boca Cola”一样。事实上，使用自己的化学混合物并进行改良直至获得好的口感会更容易。

Even on Discovery - Many Experts refute this Reverse Engineering and one Designer of Lockheed Martin - a Top Aircraft Company says Its Impossible to reverse engineer a Fighter. It would cost you more effort and you would need to be far more skilled than to be able to create your own fighter.

即使在Discovery频道上 - 许多专家都反驳了逆向工程的说法，洛克希德·马丁公司的一位设计师 - 一家顶级飞机公司的设计师说逆向工程一架战斗机是不可能的。这需要更多的努力和比创造自己的战斗机还需要更高的技能水平。

If it was that easy everyone would be doing it. I mean the Israelis are equally talented so they can simply make their own F-22 Raptor. Singapore could make its own F-18. We could make our own Ferraris.

如果那么容易，每个人都会这样做。我的意思是，以色列人同样富有才华，所以他们可以制造自己的F-22猛禽。新加坡可以制造自己的F-18。我们也能制造自己的法拉利。

The bottom line is Reverse Engineering is not so easy and is literally impossible for more advanced designs like Engines or Airfrxs or Wingtips or Control Guidance Systems.

归根结底，逆向工程并不那么容易，对于像引擎、机身、机翼或者控制引导系统这样更先进的设计来说，逆向工程几乎是不可能的。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

I think China just likes the world to think they reverse engineer when in reality i think they send students, learn the fundamentals, try, try and try and finally succeed.

我认为中国只是希望世界认为他们在进行逆向工程，而实际上我认为他们是派遣学生，学习基础知识，尝试，不断尝试，最终成功。

Sure people say the Chinese J-20 looks same as the Raptor etc etc but frankly there are not too many Aerodynamic designs in the world. All Airplanes look vaguely similar to each other.

当然，有人说中国的J-20看起来和猛禽等相似，但坦白说，世界上的空气动力学设计并不是很多。所有的飞机在外观上都有些相似。

One Simple thing - It requires 75000 Parameters to design a Wing for a Fighter. 75,000 Parameters. So can you imagine reverse engineering a Wing????

一个简单的事实 - 设计一架战斗机的机翼需要75000个参数。75000个参数。那么你能想象逆向工程一对机翼吗？

Even an Architect who copies a design has to get the entire schematics to do the structural engineering. Just give the Architect the design of a building and he simply cannot redesign the building unless he has an unlimited budget. For instance a Brunei Sheikh who wanted a Replica of the White House found his bill would be $ 8.25 Billion which is far more than the White House is valued today

即使是模仿设计的建筑师，也必须获得整个结构图以进行结构工程设计。只是给建筑师一座建筑的设计，并且他不能重新设计这座建筑，除非他有无限的预算。例如，一位想要建造白宫复制品的文莱谢赫发现，他的账单将达到82.5亿美元，远远超过了今天白宫的估值。

Ajoy Roy
Reverse engineering is a complicated affair. Yes you can copy the shape and internals. While that is very easily done with simple obxts - toys, clothes and some appliances, there are a host of other issues involved when you attempt to copy advanced and complicated obxts.

逆向工程是一项复杂的事务。是的，你可以复制形状和内部结构。虽然在简单的物体上，如玩具、衣服和一些电器中，这样做是非常容易的，但在尝试复制先进和复杂的物体时涉及到许多其他问题。

Advanced or state of art machinery uses state of art materials. You can copy the shape, but what about materials. For that you need a whole infrastructure and design capability.

先进或先进技术的机械使用了先进技术的材料。你可以复制形状，但材料呢？为此，你需要完整的基础设施和设计能力。

Advanced machinery required advanced manufacturing. That involves both machine tools and assembly procedures.
Both the above require your own expertise that comes with R&D and practice, and that takes a lot of effort (both monitory and personnel) as well as time. This is some thing no amount of copying will give you.

先进的机械需要先进的制造技术。这涉及到机床和装配程序。以上两者都需要研发和实践带来的专业知识，而这需要大量的努力（包括资金和人员），以及时间。这是无法通过简单复制获得的。

For example
a) India use Russian tanks. The treads are imported from Russia. Why? Because as yet India has not been able to manufacture steel of that particular quality. Indian tank treads last less than half that of Russian treads.

例如
a) 印度使用俄罗斯坦克。履带是从俄罗斯进口的。为什么？因为印度至今还没有能够制造出那种特定质量的钢铁。印度坦克履带的寿命不到俄罗斯坦克履带的一半。

b) Jet engines (and power turbines) use turbine blades. These are now a days made of special ceramic/steel composite and require advanced manufacturing techniques. Very few companies have mastered the design and manufacture of turbine blades. Even Chinese who are past masters at copying still buy jet engines, and so do Indians.

b) 喷气发动机（和动力涡轮机）使用涡轮叶片。这些叶片现在通常由特殊的陶瓷/钢复合材料制成，需要先进的制造技术。很少有公司掌握了涡轮叶片的设计和制造技术。即使是擅长复制的中国企业，也仍然购买喷气发动机，印度也是如此。

So yes we can reverse engineer fighter aircraft, but only when we can manufacture critical components to that standard on our own, but then you will not need to reverse engineer, just design and build your own.

所以是的，我们可以逆向工程战斗机，但只有当我们能够自行制造符合标准的关键组件时。但那时你将不需要逆向工程，只需设计和建造自己的。

Franklin Veaux
There’s this idea that if you can take some mechanical thing apart and see how all the parts work, you can build a new one.

有这样一个观念，如果你能拆解某个机械物体并看到所有零件是如何工作的，你就能建造一个新的。

Nope. It doesn’t work that way.

不，事实并非如此。

This:

这个

is a nickel superalloy turbine blade. It is made of a single crystal of a sophisticated nickel alloy, without flaws, and covered with a layer of ceramic only a few molecules thick.

是一片镍基高温合金涡轮叶片。它由一块精密的镍合金单晶制成，没有瑕疵，并覆盖有一层只有几个分子厚的陶瓷。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处

Okay, so you have this in your hand. Now what?

好的，那么你手里有这个了。现在怎么办？

Do you know how to make a part from a single crystal of metal? Do you know how to deposit the coating on it? Do you know how to do this without the tiniest flaw or inclusion?

你知道如何从金属的单晶中制造零件吗？你知道如何在上面涂覆涂层吗？你知道如何在没有最微小缺陷或夹杂的情况下完成这个过程吗？

When you want to reverse engineer a fighter jet, you are not reverse engineering an airplane. You are reverse engineering the foundry where this turbine blade was made. You are reverse engineering the materials science that went into it. You are reverse engineering the milling machines that made the parts. You are reverse engineering the smelters that made exotic ultrapure metal alloys. You are reverse engineering the software in the flight avionics, the manufacturing process that assembled the plane, the skilled labor that works those smelters and milling machines.

当你想要逆向工程一架战斗机时，你并不是在逆向工程一架飞机。你是在逆向工程制造这片涡轮叶片的铸造厂。你是在逆向工程涉及其中的材料科学。你是在逆向工程制造这些零件的铣床。你是在逆向工程制造出异国情调的超纯金属合金的冶炼厂。你是在逆向工程飞行航空电子学中的软件，装配飞机的制造过程，以及在那些冶炼厂和铣床上工作的熟练劳动力。

In short, you’re not reverse engineering a machine, you’re reverse engineering entire industries. And you’re doing it without seeing the industries, only the obxt they make.

简而言之，你不是在逆向工程一台机器，你是在逆向工程整个产业。而且你是在没有看到这些产业，只看到它们制造的物体的情况下进行的。

Fighter planes are not made from off-the-shelf parts. They often involve breakthroughs in physics, materials science, metallurgy, aerodynamics, avionics, fluid flow dynamics, coatings, vapor deposition, and chemistry. Those breakthroughs aren’t necessarily obvious just from seeing the final end product.

战斗机不是用现成零件组装而成的。它们通常涉及到物理学、材料科学、冶金学、空气动力学、航空电子学、流体动力学、涂层、蒸发沉积和化学等方面的突破。这些突破并不一定从看到最终成品就能明显地看出来。

Start with the turbine blade. You look at it. You X-Ray it. You sample a chip and examine it under an electron microscope. You know it’s made from just one flawless crystal. How? How was it made?

以涡轮叶片为例。你看着它。你用X光照射它。你取样一块芯片，并在电子显微镜下检查它。你知道它是由一个完美无瑕的晶体制成的。怎么制造的？是如何制造的？

印度中国 Su-35 阵风战斗机 技术 印度制造

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