为什么欧洲和美国不能阻止非法移民?（二）

Joshua Christos
As an European who emigrated to USA in 1990s, back when USA was obxtively THE best country in the world to emigrate to (trust me, from 1991 up to about 2006 USA really was an awesome place to live) I can answer that questions pretty well.
Now, a lot of other people mentioned the quality of life that in the USA it actually decreased a lot from 2006 to 2016, while in Europe it increased in the same period of time, especially in the former Soviet satellites that are now part of EU.
The major factor is that American immigration system is insane. There is no other way to say it.
there is in fact no way to legally immigrate to USA outside of: visa lottery, marrying a US citizen, being a person of extraordinary ability (like Albert Einstein, or... Justin Beiber), or a member of the lucky 1.5% of the H1B visa holders who get certified by Department of Labor as indispensable to American science or industry. There is no other legal way to come to America and stay permanently.
Now, let's say it you are one of the "lucky" holders of a Green Card. Now, this is where the real "fun" starts. You see, American immigration system is predicated on a core idea, written into law, that every person coming to USA is a criminal, and they have to prove otherwise: at the consular office and at the border.

作为一个在20世纪90年代移民到美国的欧洲人，当时美国客观上是世界上最适合移民的国家(相信我，从1991年到2006年，美国真的是一个很棒的居住地)，我可以很好地回答这个问题。
现在，很多其他人提到了生活质量，从2006年到2016年，美国的生活质量实际上下降了很多，而在欧洲，生活质量在同一时期有所提高，尤其是现在属于欧盟的前苏联卫星国。
主要因素是美国的移民制度是疯狂的。没有其他方式可以这么说。
事实上，除了签证抽签、与美国公民结婚、成为一个有非凡能力的人(比如阿尔伯特·爱因斯坦，或者贾斯汀·比伯)之外，没有办法合法移民到美国。或者是被劳工部认证为美国科学或工业不可或缺的H1B签证持有者中1.5%的幸运儿，没有其他合法途径来美国并永久居留。
现在，让我们假设你是绿卡的“幸运”持有者之一。现在，真正的“乐趣”开始了。你看，美国的移民制度是建立在一个核心理念的基础上的，这个核心理念被写进了法律，那就是每个来到美国的人都是罪犯，他们必须在领事馆和边境证明自己不是罪犯。

So what happens when you are a Green Card holder? Your family is marked as the "super-villains" - potential illegal immigrants to USA. Even if your mother or sister or brother had a US tourist visa before, when you were an ordinary schmuck on H1B, now they will be stopped at the border as potential illegal immigrants and questioned. Does not matter if you are from Norway, France or Poland. It is the law.
Your wife? Cannot come and visit AT ALL. You can only apply for a Green Card for her and than wait 4 years. Yes, USA thinks that Norwegians are so desperate to get into USA and stay illegally that your wife's tourist visa becomes automatically invalid when you get a Green Card and you cannot see her until she gets a Green Card (or if you have a kind of a job that lets you telecommute from Europe - you get to see her a few times a year if you fly there).
That does not even touch on the subject that a Green Card holder can be kept in indefinite detention without a trial, can be deported for ANY felony, event 4th degree (were you speeding in Virginia by going 65MPH in a 45MPH Interstate construction zone that was not there? tough luck), or he can be even deported and lose all livelihood for filing a government form incorrectly (any government form, one guy got deported for checking a wrong box on a DL application).
Now, if you are from Iraq, that may seem like minor inconveniences compared to war.

那么当你是绿卡持有者时会发生什么呢?你的家人被标记为“超级恶棍”——潜在的非法移民。即使你的母亲或姐妹或兄弟以前有过美国旅游签证，当你是一个持有H1B签证的普通傻瓜时，现在他们会在边境被视为潜在的非法移民而被拦截并受到质疑。不管你来自挪威、法国还是波兰都是如此，这是法律。
你的妻子？根本不能来美国。你只能为她申请绿卡，然后再等4年。是的，美国认为挪威人是如此渴望进入美国并非法居留，以至于当你获得绿卡时，你妻子的旅游签证自动失效，直到她获得绿卡你才能见到她(或者如果你有一份允许你从欧洲远程办公的工作——如果你飞到那里，你每年可以见到她几次)。
这甚至没有涉及绿卡持有者可以在未经审判的情况下被无限期拘留，可以因任何重罪、甚至是四级事件被驱逐出境的问题（你在弗吉尼亚州以65英里每小时的速度在45英里每小时的州际建筑区里超速，真不走运），或者，他甚至可能因为提交错误的政府表格而被驱逐出境，失去所有的生计(任何政府表格，一个人因为在DL申请上勾选了错误的框而被驱逐出境)。
现在，如果你来自伊拉克，与战争相比，这似乎是一个小小的不便。

C Hjorth
As a 19 years old woman born in Scandinavia and now living in England, I'm sorry to say you could not convince me to move permanently to USA.
I realize things are different here than there, and I'm not trying to criticize it, nor is it meant as an insult, it's a comment on why I'm simply staying where I am. It is more about what I've already got, which keeps me here.
I get free healthcare. I don't need to pay for health insurance, it's already done through taxes. These are high, but I believe they're worth it. I'm never in between insurances, and I never have to worry when I'm paying for medicine. As someone who's chronically ill with asthma, that means a lot to me.
Free education (I get paid to go to school). This has obvious benefits, and are again paid by the very high taxes. Arguably it may remove the sense of “competition” but I again believe it allows everyone an opportunity.
Guns aren't a common thing (I realize that's how it is certain places in American but the thought of so many citizens owning guns makes me uncomfortable.) This is simply because I'm not used to it, and I think it would take me long to do so - I still flinch when they take out guns in the airport, despite knowing its for protection.

作为一名出生于斯堪的纳维亚半岛、现居英国的19岁女性，我很抱歉地说，你是无法说服我永久移居美国的。
我意识到这里和那里的情况是不同的，我并不是要批评它，也不是要侮辱它，我只是在评论我为什么要呆在这里。更重要的是我已经拥有的东西，让我留在这里。
我有免费医疗。我不需要支付医疗保险，已经通过税收支付了。虽然价格很高，但我相信物有所值。我从来没有买过保险，也从来不用为要付医药费而担忧。作为一个患有慢性哮喘的人，这对我来说意义重大。
免费教育（我上学是有报酬的）。这有明显的好处，而且还是由非常高的税收来支付。可以说，这可能会消除“竞争”感，但我再次相信，这让每个人都有机会。
枪支并不常见(我知道美国的某些地方就是这样，但一想到这么多公民拥有枪支，我就感到不舒服。)这只是因为我不习惯，而且我认为我需要很长时间才能习惯——当他们在机场拿出枪时，我仍然会退缩，尽管我知道这是为了保护自己。

Work benefits by law (6 weeks paid vacation, 1 year paid maternity leave). You can get it in USA yes, but here I'm guaranteed it no matter what. This is again a part of our culture, everyone is “paying for the neighbor” - and most I know are happy to do so, and proud of it.
Easy to travel between countries (lots of different cultures right around the corner). This is true for America as well I assume with the different states, but right now I love travelling around Europe - and so this is an important factor.
The culture. Having lived in a different country than my native for 2 years, I've come to appreciate my own even more so, and honestly I would miss it a lot if I moved somewhere else, further away. The very dark humour, and the lack of PC. The history, the socialism (yes we’ll moan about taxes, but most are bottom line happy to pay), the music festivals etc.
However; I'm not saying you can't/can get all these things in USA and feel at home, but for a young woman - on my way to university - just getting started in life, USA holds very few opportunities for me I can't find right here. I would love to visit, but I doubt I would leave Europe any time soon.

法定工作福利(6周带薪假期，1年带薪产假)。是的，你在美国也可以拥有此福利，但在这里我保证无论如何都能得到。这又是我们文化的一部分，每个人都在“为邻居买单”——我认识的大多数人都很乐意这样做，并为此感到自豪。
很容易在国家之间旅行(很多不同的文化就在拐角处)。我想对于美国的不同州来说也是如此，但现在我喜欢在欧洲旅行——所以这是一个重要的因素。
文化，在不同的国家生活了两年之后，我开始更加欣赏我自己的国家，老实说，如果我搬到别的地方，更远的地方，我会非常想念它。黑色幽默，缺乏电脑。历史，社会主义（是的，我们会抱怨税收，但大多数人都很乐意缴纳税费），音乐节等等。
然而我并不是说你不能，或者可以在美国得到所有这些东西，并有宾至如归的感觉，但对于一个刚刚开始生活的年轻女性来说，美国给我的机会很少，我在这里是找不到机会的。我很想去看看，但我怀疑我是不会很快离开欧洲的。

Edit: Thank you everyone for your interest in my answer, unfortunately I'm in an exam period and therefore won't be able to answer every comment.
So to answer some of them.
I'm sure there are many different ways of living, and none may be make right than the other, I've simply stated my preferences and why I'm staying where I am. I'm aware you can get a lot for the above if you work hard, and that competition is healthy. I just take pride in our social security and our principle of paying for our neighbor. This system isn't flawless though, some people take advantage of it and decide that “working isn't for them”. Don't get me wrong, we have plenty of problems here as well, I'm not trying to paint a perfect picture.
Some has commented that Europe receive a lot of free protection from America. I simply and honestly don't know enough about the situation to comment or argue anything valid for and against. Also, bottomline is that it's not something I'm controlling or condoning.
Lastly, I love my country(ies). I'm likely to be biased towards the systems in place here. it of course plays a big role in my judgement. It doesn't mean I believe USA is a bad place, I just simply don't have any reason to move.
Someone commented something I think is very true for my situation: People mostly move when they experience hardship, I'm not; and therefore I'm content with where I am.

编辑：感谢大家对我的回答感兴趣，不幸的是，我正处于考试期，因此无法就每一条评论进行回复。
因此，回答其中一些问题吧。
我相信有很多不同的生活方式，没有一种比另一种更合适，我只是陈述了我的偏好以及我为什么留在这里。我知道，如果你努力工作，上面提到的许多东西你都可以拥有，而且竞争是健康的。我只是为我们的社会保障和为邻居买单的原则感到骄傲。然而，这个系统并非完美无瑕，有些人利用这一点，认为“工作不适合他们”。不要误解我的意思，我们这里也有很多问题，我并不是想描绘一幅完美的画面。
一些人评论说，欧洲从美国那里得到了很多免费的保护。老实说，我不是很了解这方面的情况，无法给予评论或就任何支持和反对的事情进行争论。 而且，最重要的是，这不是我要控制或宽恕的事情。
最后，我爱我的国家。我可能对这里的体制有偏见。它在我的判断中当然起着重要作用。这并不意味着我认为美国是一个糟糕的地方，我只是没有任何理由搬家而已。
有人说了一些我认为非常符合我的情况的话:人们在遇到困难时大多会搬家，我还没有遇到困难;所以我对我现在的处境很满意。

Katja Kaila
I’m answering from the perspective of Western Europe which I know best.
Please note that my intention is not to criticize the United States in particular. However, answering this question informatively requires listing some reasons why Europeans might not feel tempted to immigrate there.
People migrate because of getting married with someone from another country, getting a tempting job offer, or wanting to study in a good university abroad.
Europeans still do immigrate to the United States for these reasons. It’s a huge country that offers many possibilities if you are lucky.
In 2015, 695 Finns immigrated to the United States, which makes it the third most popular target country for emigrating Finns after Sweden (2363) and the UK (991).
Germany, Spain, Denmark, Estonia and Norway weren’t far behind.
In the same year, 1,619 Americans immigrated to Finland (and 72 were denied the residence permit.
That means the direction of the migration flow was from the USA to Finland, not the other way around.

我是从我最了解的西欧的角度来回答的。
请注意，我无意特别的批评美国。然而，要非正式地回答这个问题，就需要列出欧洲人可能不想移民到那里的一些原因。
人们移民是因为与另一个国家的人结婚，得到一份诱人的工作，或者想在国外读一所好大学。
欧洲人仍然因为这些原因移民到美国。这是一个幅员辽阔的国家，如果你幸运的话，它会提供很多可能性。
2015年，695名芬兰人移民到美国，这使其成为继瑞典（2363人）和英国（991人）之后第三大最受芬兰人欢迎的移民目标国家。
德国、西班牙、丹麦、爱沙尼亚和挪威紧随其后。
同年，1619名美国人移民到芬兰(其中72人被拒绝获得居留许可)。
这意味着移民流动的方向是从美国到芬兰，而不是相反。

In addition to the aforementioned reasons, people also migrate if they don’t have very good prospects in their own country. It can be because of war, persecution, extreme weather conditions (floods or drought), lack of safety, or unemployment, for example.
When a country suffers from factors like this, also people who marry a foreigner tend to choose the country of the spouse, rather than their own country.
Europe doesn’t have such large scale problems at the moment that would force people to emigrate.
They don’t have to leave, and if they still opt for leaving, it’s almost always for other reasons than escaping some problems in their own countries.
Europe has many advantages that the USA doesn’t offer at the moment:
good workers’ rights which result in long paid holidays and protection against being fired

除了上述原因外，如果人们在自己的国家没有很好的前景，他们也会移民。例如，这可能是因为战争、迫害、极端天气条件（洪水或干旱）、缺乏安全或失业。
当一个国家受到这种因素的影响时，与外国人结婚的人往往会选择配偶的国家，而不是自己的国家。
欧洲目前还没有出现迫使人们移民的大规模问题。
他们不必离开，如果他们仍然选择离开，几乎总是出于其他原因，而不是为了逃避自己国家的一些问题。
欧洲有许多美国目前没有的优势：
良好的工人权利，这导致了带薪长假和免受解雇的保障

universal healthcare
free or cheap education
paid parental leaves and social benefits for families
affordable daycare
good public transport
reasonable gun control
low crime rates
high social mobility
good gender equality
truly representative multi-party democracy
an overall good safety net in different life situations
Many European countries also exceed the USA in rankings when it comes to freedom[2] , press freedom[3] , and happiness[4] .

全民医疗
免费或廉价的教育
带薪产假和家庭社会福利
负担得起的日托
良好的公共交通
合理的枪支管制
低犯罪率
高社会流动性
良好的性别平等
真正的代议制多党民主
在不同的生活情况下，一个全面的良好的安全网
在自由、新闻自由和幸福方面，许多欧洲国家的排名也超过了美国。

Most Europeans are conscious of all this and don’t aspire to immigrate to the USA unless they have a specific reason to do so.
Most people already have everything they pursue in their own country here in Europe.
That’s why immigrating to the USA would be for them a step backward, not forward.

大多数欧洲人都意识到了这一切，除非有具体的理由，否则他们不想移民到美国。
在欧洲，大多数人在自己的国家已经拥有了他们所追求的一切。
这就是为什么移民美国对他们来说是一种倒退，而不是前进的原因。

Dan Bradbury
That it’s illegal. That people who break the laws aren’t magically good people just because they’re poor (nor necessarily bad people for breaking the law, but they’re still breaking the law). That every nation and the US has a right and obligation to control its borders. That the US’s immigration system is fucked up is besides the point. Illegal immigrants are here illegally. I believe in a humane policy in how we treat migrants (especially the old, infirm and children), but the US doesn’t owe any people, much less the world, unfettered access to the country.

这是违法的。违法的人并不是因为贫穷就神奇地成为好人（违法的人也不一定是坏人，但他们仍然在违法）。每个国家和美国都有权利和义务控制自己的边界。美国的移民制度一团糟，这不是重点。在这里非法移民是非法的。我相信我们对待移民(尤其是老人、体弱者和儿童)的方式应该是人道的，但美国不欠任何人，更不用说世界了，美国不会让人不受限制地进入这个国家的。

Pascal Morimacil
It’s yet another clear example of capitalism saying one thing, and doing another.
You heard about the ideas of free trade and free markets, right? You know how companies are relocating to places with lower wages, lower labor and environmental protection, and all of that, yeah?
The idea is that if wages are higher in one place than another, then some of the companies will move to where wages are lower, and some of the workers will move to where wages are higher, and then it kind of balances itself out.
That’s the story: Don’t get governments involved in any of that, just let it all happen, it will be for the best for everyone!
But then, what actually happens in practice?
Well in practice, you have laws and borders to prevent this from happening.
Goods and money are allowed to move freely, but people are not.
People are told: If you don't like your job, you can just go find a different, better paying job elsewhere!

这是资本主义说一套做另一套的又一个明显例子。
你听说过自由贸易和自由市场的概念，对吧?你知道公司怎么都搬迁到工资更低、降低劳动成本，环保要求不高地方的，对吧?
这个想法是，如果一个地方的工资比另一个地方高，那么一些公司会搬到工资低的地方，一些工人会搬到工资高的地方，然后它就会自我平衡。
故事就是这样:不要让政府参与其中，让它发生吧，这对每个人而言都是最好的!
但是，在实践中实际发生了什么呢?
在实践中，你有法律和边界来防止这种情况发生。
货物和货币可以自由流动，但人却不能。
人们被告知:如果你不喜欢你的工作，你可以去别的地方找一份薪水更高的工作!

And then, if people actually do that, it becomes: OMG,Government has to intervene!
Imagine that most of the resources in your country are owned by wealthy foreigners and their corporations, and they are buying up everything else, calling it foreign investment.
The relocated some factories to your area, and are polluting the hell out of everything.
They offer you to work in sweatshops for ridiculously low wages.
They bribe your politicians, and often the bribes are even tax deductible.
All the profits go to their country.
Because of the OECD tax policies, the wealthy and corporations pay 0 tax (taxation rights are granted to the country where the investment came from, not where the business is set up and operating)

然后，如果人们真的这么做了，就会变成：天哪，政府必须介入！
想象一下，你国家的大部分资源都被富有的外国人和他们的公司所拥有，他们正在收购其他一切，称之为外国投资。
他们把一些工厂迁到了你们的地区，污染了所有的东西。
他们让你在血汗工厂工作，工资低得离谱。
他们贿赂你们的政客，而且这些贿赂通常是免税的。
所有的利润都归他们的国家所有。
由于经合组织的税收政策，富人和公司无需缴税(征税权授予投资来源国，而不是企业设立和经营的国家)。