东京VS上海
Tokyo VS Shanghai
译文简介
有谁在这两个城市都长期生活/工作过，请谈谈您的经历以及您更喜欢哪个城市？
正文翻译
Tokyo VS Shanghai
东京VS上海
Anyone who lived/worked long term in both cities care to comment on your experience and what you prefer in one city of the other?
I’ve been in SH for nearly 6 years and I’m at a point where I’m comfortable in regards to material needs and have a decent amount in savings.
After a 1 week trip to Tokyo and quite the cultural shock when coming back, I’m wondering if it’s time to thrown in the towel even if it means a possible pay cut and rise in life costs
有谁在这两个城市都长期生活/工作过，请谈谈您的经历以及您更喜欢哪个城市？
我在上海工作将近 6 年了，现在物质生活比较宽裕，也有一定的积蓄。
去东京旅行一周后，回来时受到了相当大的文化冲击，我在想是否是时候放弃（上海）了，即使这意味着可能会减薪和生活成本上升。
I’ve been in SH for nearly 6 years and I’m at a point where I’m comfortable in regards to material needs and have a decent amount in savings.
After a 1 week trip to Tokyo and quite the cultural shock when coming back, I’m wondering if it’s time to thrown in the towel even if it means a possible pay cut and rise in life costs
有谁在这两个城市都长期生活/工作过，请谈谈您的经历以及您更喜欢哪个城市？
我在上海工作将近 6 年了，现在物质生活比较宽裕，也有一定的积蓄。
去东京旅行一周后，回来时受到了相当大的文化冲击，我在想是否是时候放弃（上海）了，即使这意味着可能会减薪和生活成本上升。
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Aren't you the guy who used to rave about Shanghai so much, thinking it's the coolest city in the world? Unless I'm confusing names pretty sure I saw you a lot mocking basically anyone with criticisms.
What changed?
你不就是那个曾经对上海赞不绝口，认为它是世界上最酷的城市的人吗？除非我把名字搞混了，否则我敢肯定我经常看到你嘲笑任何对上海提出批评的人。
怎么变了？
Been living a total of 7 years in SH. For me SH is the better deal.
在上海总共生活了7年。对我来说，上海是更好的选择。
My personal preference would be Tokyo (or Osaka or Kyoto). I may be speaking too much as a tourist but, despite some of the clear problems in Japan (bureaucracy, cash-based transactions, etc) I just like the environment and lifestyle in Japan more. I like the vibe in those places more. It's a little more diverse to me in terms of activities and what you can do. I like Japanese food more than Shanghai style food at the very least (although there are some varieties of Chinese food that really are just incredible).
I think despite its initial appearance of complexity, the Tokyo metro system is better than Shanghai's in comfort and in terms of all the places it goes to. Also beneficial - your Tokyo metro card will work in any other metro system in Japan which is incredible.
The cost of living is higher, sure, but like Shanghai, you can live frugally if you try, I've heard. Ultimately I just would prefer it - that could change if I end up living there though.
我个人更喜欢东京（或者大阪、京都）。作为一名游客，我的看法可能很片面，但尽管日本存在一些明显的问题（官僚主义、使用现金交易等），我还是更喜欢日本的环境和生活方式。我更喜欢那些地方的氛围。在活动和可以做的事情方面，我觉得日本更多样化一些。至少比起上海菜，我更喜欢日本菜（虽然有些中国菜真的很好吃）。
我认为，尽管东京地铁系统最初看起来很复杂，但就舒适度和通往的所有地方而言，它比上海的地铁系统更好。此外，东京地铁卡还可以在日本其他任何地铁系统中使用，这也是非常好的一点。
当然，东京的生活成本较高，但和上海一样，我听说只要努力，也能过上将就的生活。归根结底，我还是更喜欢东京--不过，如果我真的住在了那里，看法可能又会发生变化。
If the people were better China overall would outshine Japan.
Sadly the Japanese are simply better in terms of social aspects such as politeness, modernity, education, societal norms and behavior, etc.
The large majority of Chinese won’t change until the government actually does take action in reforming education and reversing the damage the cultural revolution has imposed upon the people.
如果中国的人民表现得更优秀，那么中国在整体上会好于日本。
遗憾的是，日本人在礼貌、现代性、教育、社会规范和行为等社会方面都更胜一筹。
除非政府真正采取行动改革教育，扭转文化大革命对人民造成的伤害，否则绝大多数中国人是不会改变的。
i felt depressed in Japan: you need to behave very carefully to look like a Japanese
我在日本感到沮丧：你需要非常小心地表现得像个日本人
Oh man, Korea is MUCH worse for this shit. Nearly all human behaviour (except blacking out on the street) is a faux pas. Using your left hand, handing things to people with one hand, eating before the oldest person at the table, having long hair, drinking at your own pace.
唉，韩国在这件事上更糟糕。几乎所有的人类行为（除了在大街上晕倒）都是错误的。使用左手、单手递东西、比同桌最年长的人先吃东西、留长发、按自己的节奏喝酒。
Yeah Korea is fun but it's a lot more homogeneous in terms of how people dress and style themselves.
是的，韩国很有趣，但人们的着装和风格更加同质化。
It seems every winter, the entire under 30 population of Korea has been told which down coat to buy, coupled with everyone having the same haircut (military bullshit). Of course, everyone is absolutely gorgeous due to their insane beauty standards.
似乎每年冬天，韩国所有 30 岁以下的人都会被告知要买哪件羽绒服，再加上每个人都留着同样的发型（跟军队似的）。当然，由于他们疯狂的审美标准，每个人看起来都绝对漂亮。
I had a camper van in Japan. Unreal. They actually take the toilets out of RVs here because you can always access a clean toilet no matter where you are.
Like literally middle of the night. At a random lakeside parking lot. Not a soul for miles. Bathroom with electronic sliding doors, fully clean and toilet paper stocked. WTF.
我在日本有一辆露营车。给人的感觉非常不真实。实际上，这里的人会把厕所从房车上拆下来，因为无论你在哪里，都能找到干净的厕所。
比如大半夜，在一个无名的湖边停车场，方圆几英里都没有人的地方，也有着带电子滑门的盥洗室，里面非常干净，厕纸充足。真是操了。
Almost like when you have a country of cultured, educated and relatively wealthy people, and they don't let tons of of trash into the country, that's what happens. Who would have thought you could keep your country neat with this simple trick?
Sweden could have been like that too. They went down a different route however.
当你拥有一个人们有文化、有教养、相对富裕的国家时，如果他们不让成吨的垃圾进入这个国家，就会发生这样的事情。谁能想到用这么简单的一招就能保持国家的整洁呢？
瑞典也本来也可以这样。不过，他们走了另一条路。
This .. japan is picky about the foreigner they let in and also many do not stay because of the strict work culture. I am honestly surprised I have lasted 10 years here but soon I will head to Shanghai
加一。日本对外国人很挑剔，而且由于严格的工作文化，很多人都不会留下来。老实说，我很惊讶自己能在这里坚持 10 年，但很快我就要去上海了。
I had a colleague who worked in Tokyo, Shanghai then Hong Kong. She was female and it was really tough working in Japan. The patriarchy is quite real. So you may need to account for that. She speaks English, Japanese and Chinese fine.
我有一位同事，先后在东京、上海和香港工作过。她是女性，在日本工作非常艰难。重男轻女的观念非常严重。所以你可能需要考虑到这一点。她的英语、日语和中文都说得很好。
I know that isn’t very related with the questions, but I went to Tokyo, Sapporo, Fukuoka, Osaka and other places, but I have a feeling that Japan is like that hotel 5 stars from the 90’s. You can see that they where super rich, but now, it’s a little old, no renovation, with some abandon look. Sorry, just had this feeling during last week over there.
我知道这和主贴的问题不是很相关，但是我去过东京、札幌、福冈、大阪等地，但我有一种感觉，日本就像90年代的那家5星级酒店。你看得出他们曾经超级有钱，但现在却有点老旧，没有翻新，看起来有点废弃的样子。抱歉，我只是在上周去日本的时候产生了这种感觉。
Things are run down. Japan lives in Showa times.. sadly
一切都在破败。日本生活在昭和时代......可悲可叹
spent a good part of my childhood in Tokyo and have gone back a few times, I have to say I would much prefer Tokyo but I make way, way more money here.
In terms of bureaucracy and getting things done, Tokyo is marginally more difficult. Neither are friendly to foreigners though. Having to go through my friends to order certain things because I don't have the 18 digit ID card in Shanghai is just bs.
Other quality of life things are mostly better in Tokyo. I.E. Food quality/safety vs price, public transit, cleanliness, people in general, hygiene, internet freedom, ease of getting western things, price of luxury goods.
我的童年大部分时间是在东京度过的，也回去过几次，我不得不说我更喜欢东京，但我在这里（上海）赚的钱要多得多。
在官僚主义和办事效率方面，东京更难一点。不过，这两个城市对外国人都不友好。在上海，因为我没有 18 位数的身份证，所以必须通过我的朋友才能订购某些东西，真的很扯。
其他生活质量方面，东京要好得多。例如，食品质量/安全与价格、公共交通、清洁度、人际关系、卫生、网络自由度、购买西方商品的便利性、奢侈品的价格。
Lived in Tokyo for 2 years around 2010, Shanghai for 10 years until 2020, my brother still lives in Tokyo so I visit regularly. Tokyo feels like living in an airport or some kind of medical clinic. Whereas Shanghai feels like living in the wilderness that has been paved over but the chaotic nature of the wild hasn't gone anywhere - I'm talking about the vibe and feeling of the place, not necessarily the experience of living there.
In real terms though when it comes to living - they're both comfortable, safe, and convenient, with Shanghai being much more convenient (probably one of the most convenient places on earth - think Wall-E levels these days). Shanghai is good for making money. Tokyo is good for a more relaxed, family kinda lifestyle. If you're OK jumping through hoops to gain freedom with certain things like internet and visas etc, Shanghai can be great. If you're OK jumping through beaurocratic hoops with everything you have to do to live in a place, Tokyo can be great.
Chinese is easier than Japanese for English speakers so in that way Shanghai is better. Shanghai also has more options when it comes to food. Shanghai is more multicultural too. People speak better English in Shanghai but still not great so doesn't make much of a difference.
Having said all that if I could choose a place to stay it'd be Tokyo but that's just a personal preference.
2010 年左右在东京住了两年，2020 年之前在上海住了 10 年，我哥哥还住在东京，所以我经常去看他。东京给人的感觉就像住在机场或某种医疗诊所里。而上海给人的感觉就像生活在荒野中，虽然已经铺好了道路，但荒野的杂乱无章却丝毫没有消失--我说的是这个地方给人的氛围和感觉，而不是生活在那里的实际体验。
实际上，就生活而言，这两个地方都很舒适、安全、方便，而上海要方便得多（可能是世界上最方便的地方之一--有种《机器人总动员》里的感觉）。上海适合赚钱。东京适合更轻松的家庭式生活方式。如果你愿意为获得互联网和签证等方面的自由而四处奔波，上海会很不错。如果您可以忍受通过繁琐的手续在一个地方生活，那么东京也不错。
对于讲英语的人来说，中文比日语更容易，所以从这个角度来说，上海更好。在饮食方面，上海也有更多的选择。上海也有更多的多元文化。上海人的英语说得更好，但仍然不是很好，所以差别不大。
说了这么多，如果让我选择一个地方，我会选择东京，但这只是我的个人偏好。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
I'm not sure I agree with this point. Japanese is more complex in terms of grammar rules and articles and particles and all that, I would say, but the difference in accessing the languages is substantial because of katakana and hiragana. It's a lot easier to learn more phrases and words and become conversational due to that. Once you learn the katakana / hiragana it's fairly easy to start deciphering stuff and you can even become pretty conversational / somewhat with just those. Chinese you can really only learn through sheer effort and memorization. I think lower levels of Chinese are maybe easier in terms of the basics but becoming an advanced, fluent speaker and reader (more this) of Chinese is extremely difficult.
“中文比日语更容易。”
我不太同意这一点。日语在语法规则、冠词和助词等方面更为复杂，但由于片假名和平假名的存在，两种语言在使用上的差异是巨大的。因此，学习更多的短语和单词以及会话要容易得多。一旦学会了片假名/平假名，就可以很容易地开始破译一些东西，甚至只用这些东西就可以很好地进行会话。中文真的只能通过纯粹的努力和记忆来学习。我认为较低水平的中文在基础知识方面可能更容易，，但要成为一个高级的、流利的中文使用者和阅读者（更多的是这个）是非常困难的。
I'm with you on most but food wise... c'mon. Without a doubt the best food establishments in Asia are in Japan. You name any cuisine and the Japanese do it, and do it better, including Chinese food. I won't forget how I was in Kyoto in a French restaurant and I asked if I could see the chef. They took me to the back and not a single foreigner was there. They had 1 star.
China sure you got a ton of regional foods available, most soso in Shanghai in all fairness, but nothing really outstanding. Not going to argue against eating it but when it comes to food, whatever you want, Japan will win hands down.
我同意你的大部分观点，但美食方面......拜托。毫无疑问，亚洲最好的餐饮场所在日本。你说的任何美食，日本人都会做，而且做得更好，包括中国菜。我不会忘记在京都的一家法国餐厅，我问能不能见见主厨。他们把我带到后面，那里一个外国人都没有。而且他们只有一颗星。
中国当然有很多地方美食，平心而论，上海的食物大多很普通，没有什么真正出色的东西。我不会反对去吃它，但说到吃，无论你想吃什么，日本都会胜出。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Currently in Shanghai, came here from Tokyo. Shanghai is far and away the better place to live, unless you absolutely need/want the following things:
full internet access without a VPN
decent public manners
a car enthusiast scene
buy a property
-Lower levels of air pollution (China overall has gotten MUCH better in this regard over the last 10-15 years)
Cheap, modern public transit; a 21st century payment structure, a digital ecosystem; a top notch international manufacturing logistics network, great and inexpensive public transport; down to earth, friendly people that often speak decent English, and abundant public seating spaces: these are some of the many things that Shanghai has, but Tokyo DOESN’T.
Shanghai is still rough around the edges in comparison yes. But getting literally anything done is a million times easier in Shanghai compared to Tokyo. Try to change/get anything done in Tokyo? Whether banking, online order returns, getting around, renting an apartment, or anything, dealing with these things in Japan is like trying to pull teeth from a skunk. With rabies.
Tokyo’s best days are a solid generation behind it. It’s declining, and even from young people, there’s no push towards change. They’re still living in 1997, and it shows that the Sakoku policy still lives on in the mindset of the Japanese people, and you won’t change that. There’s a reason your average Japanese has worse English ability than the average North Korean.
Tokyo, for me, was absolutely NOT worth the hype. For a week? All you’ll see is the superficial, the good stuff. But to live there? Glad i did it, but never again. The hype has enabled Japan to better hide its deep structural problems from the outsiders than anywhere else. But that’s not saying much, because even in Japan, it’s still easy to find.
So enjoy Japan for what it is: a good tourist destination that is a bit out of date in the way they do things. But enjoy even more going back to where you live
If the itch to move is strong though, have you considered SE Asia or the Mediterranean at all?
目前人在上海，是从东京来到这里的。上海远比其他地方更适合居住，除非你对以下东西完全无法割舍：
1. 无需 VPN 即可完全上网
2. 体面的公共礼仪
3. 汽车爱好者
4. 买房
较低的空气污染水平（在过去的 10-15 年里，中国在这方面的总体情况已大为改善）
廉价、现代化的公共交通；21 世纪的支付体系、数字生态系统；一流的国际制造业物流网络；便捷、廉价的公共交通；朴实、友好、能说流利英语的人们；丰富的公共座椅空间：这些都是上海拥有而东京没有的。
相比之下，上海确实还很粗糙。但与东京相比，在上海做任何事情都要容易得多。试着在东京改变或完成任何事情？无论是银行业务、网上退单、出行、租房还是其他任何事情，在日本处理这些事情就像是在给臭鼬拔牙，而且是得了狂犬病的那种。
东京在最好的时代有一群实干的人在支撑。它正在衰落，即使是年轻人，也没有改变的动力。他们还活在 1997 年，这表明锁国政策在日本人的思想中依然存在，你无法改变这一点。普通日本人的英语能力比普通朝鲜人还差，这是有原因的。
东京，对我来说，绝对不值得大肆吹捧。一个星期？你看到的都是表面的、好的东西。但要住在那里？我很高兴曾这么做过，但再也不会去了。对日本的炒作使日本比其他任何地方都能更好地向外人隐藏其深层次的结构性问题。但这并不能说明什么，因为即使在日本，问题还是很容易被发现。
因此，请尽情享受日本吧：这是一个良好的旅游目的地，但他们做事的方式有点过时了。回到自己生活的地方，会更有乐趣
如果你搬家的欲望真的很强烈，是否考虑过东南亚或地中海地区？
Putuo
OP just wanted to whine and moan and you came and laid down some real knowledge.
楼主只是想抱怨抱怨，而你却来了，并提供了一些有价值的讯息。
原创翻译：龙腾网 https://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Good to hear from people who has really know both places.
But yea, always heard from people who lived in Japan that it's not a happy place to live for work. Maybe if you retire spend a few months there traveling around then it must be nice.
很高兴听到真正了解这两个地方的人的意见。
不过，我总听在日本生活过的人说，在那里工作生活并不快乐。如果你退休后在那里住上几个月，四处旅行，也许那里会很不错。
Former resident
I’ve been told by friends that it is much much much more difficult to make Japanese friends vs Chinese friends - at work, school or just in mutual interest organizations.
朋友们告诉我，在工作、学校或在共同利益组织中结交日本朋友比结交中国朋友要困难得多。
It is hard because most foreigners need to learn Japanese to make friends. I speak Japanese have made friends and connections here but japan is over hyped up. I love it here but ready for China. Salaries are low
很难，因为大多数外国人需要学习日语才能交朋友。我会说日语，在这里结交了朋友和人脉，但日本被过度吹捧了。我喜欢这里，但已经准备好去中国了。这里工资太低。
Public tranportation is excellent in Tokyo and not that expensive tbh
东京的公共交通非常好，而且价格也不是很贵
Would you say it’s better than Shanghai though? I certainly would not.
你觉得它比上海好吗？我当然不会。
Lived in both cities and personally transit feels significantly better in Tokyo but then again it has had several decades on Shanghai in terms development. Shanghai’s pace of improvement is bananas and it is genuinely shocking how fast they can put a line in.
The Kanto region is just a lot easier to get around than Shanghai but throw in affordable taxis and share bikes for the last mile and things start evening out.
I give the edge to Tokyo on transit but not necessarily on mobility.
我在这两个城市都住过，个人感觉东京的交通状况要好得多，但东京的发展比上海快了几十年。上海的发展速度令人惊叹，他们能以非常快的速度铺设一条线路。
关东地区的交通要比上海方便得多，但如果在最后一英里的路程上算上经济实惠的出租车和共享单车，情况就会趋于打平。
在交通方面，我认为东京更胜一筹，但在流动性方面就不一定了。
Tokyo is considered to have better public transport than Shanghai while Shanghai is not massively behind Tokyo
东京被认为比上海拥有更好的公共交通，而上海并不比东京落后多少
But 3X the price. Also their shared bikes aren’t convenient. Shanghai metro plus shared bikes wins for me. Ended up walking A LOT in Tokyo
但价格却是上海的3倍。而且他们的共享单车也不方便。上海地铁加共享单车对我来说是赢家。我在东京走了很多路。