印度人如何看待他们的国家与俄罗斯的关系？（下）
What do Indians think about their country''s relationship with Russia?
译文简介
世界秩序将不可避免地发生变化。这并不是因为印度，而是因为俄罗斯的力量在减弱。
正文翻译
What do Indians think about their country's relationship with Russia?
印度人如何看待他们的国家与俄罗斯的关系？
评论翻译
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The world order will change inevitably. It isn't so much because of India but because of Russia's weakening power.
As they become more subservient to China (India's aggressive neighbour), it will become imperative for India to make friends within NATO and the Australia, Japan, US, South Korea grouping.
As a side-effect, I hope it forces encourages further democratic institutional reforms within India.
世界秩序将不可避免地发生变化。这并不是因为印度，而是因为俄罗斯的力量在减弱。
随着他们对中国（印度咄咄逼人的邻国）变得更加顺从，印度必须在北约和澳大利亚、日本、美国、韩国集团中交朋友。
作为一个副作用，我希望它能鼓励印度内部进一步的民主体制改革。
If India HAD to choose right now, it should choose Russia.
1 Russia is our old friend.
2 China is also with Russia. In case of ww, not a good thing to have a very close enemy like Pakistan and Russia.
3. Don't trust western countries. They have long History of betrayals. Ask Middle East countries, Poland, Vietnam, etc.
"It is so easy to be an enemy of the United States, but so difficult to be a friend," Nguyen Van Thieu, former leader of the South Vietnamese side, once commented.
如果印度现在必须选择，它应该选择俄罗斯。
1.俄罗斯是我们的老朋友。
2.中国也与俄罗斯站在一起。在世界大战的情况下，和巴基斯坦以及俄罗斯这样非常邻近的人敌对并不是一件好事。
3.不要相信西方国家。他们有长期的背叛历史。问问中东国家，波兰，越南等。
“与美国为敌很容易，与美国做朋友却很难，”南越前领导人阮文绍曾评价道。
Don't trust anyone. Russia/USSR was never our friend. We were just a pawn on their superpower chessboard to oppose USA.
Russian military hardware is showing its weakness in combat. USA fights wars every few years, their gear may be more expensive but clearly it's effective. If/when we have to fight China, we cannot have a significant technology gap to overcome. Our only counter to tech is numbers, which China also has.
Be a friend to the largest economy the world has ever seen, or to an oil and gas behemoth that will sell you raw materials but will never buy your products or services in enough quantity.
USA is democracy, with growing Indian diaspora. If we are smart we start soft-power influence them domestically like Israel has. Opposing Israel is almost political suicide even for junior Congressmen or fresh Senators, if we play our cards right similar could be done with Indian diaspora.
TBH, it will never come to ultimatum. But if it did it would be an actually moronic idea to back a country that is losing/stalemate against a neighbour 1/5th of its size.
1. 不要相信任何人。俄罗斯/苏联从来不是我们的朋友。我们只是他们超级大国棋盘上用来反对美国的一颗棋子。
2. 俄罗斯的军事硬件在战斗中显示出了弱点。美国每隔几年就会打仗，他们的装备可能更昂贵，但显然是有效的。如果/当我们不得不与中国作战时，我们无法克服重大的技术差距。我们对技术的唯一回应是数量，而中国也有。
3. 是与世界上最大的经济体做朋友，还是与向你出售原材料但永远不会购买足够数量的产品或服务的石油和天然气巨头做朋友？
4. 美国是民主国家，有越来越多的印度侨民。如果我们聪明的话，我们就可以像以色列那样在其国内用软实力影响他们。反对以色列几乎是政治自杀，即使是初级国会议员或新任参议员也是如此，如果我们打好牌，印度侨民也可以这样做。
说实话，永远不会有所谓的最后通牒。但如果真的如此，支持一个正在输掉/跟只有其1/5大小的邻国陷入僵局的国家将是一个非常愚蠢的想法。
Russia is our old friend.
Russia and Ukraine are both fragments of the USSR which is our "old friend". Why does Russia inherit more of this friendship?
Also, geopolitics is not about friendship. India is right in being non-aligned, but should not actively support Russia in this war.
“俄罗斯是我们的老朋友。”
俄罗斯和乌克兰都是苏联的碎片，而苏联是我们的“老朋友”。为什么俄罗斯继承了更多的友谊？
另外，地缘政治不是关于友谊的。印度不结盟是对的，但不应该在这场战争中积极支持俄罗斯。
Russia and Ukraine are both fragments of the USSR which is our "old friend". Why does Russia inherit more of this friendship?
That's like asking why does India inherit more of Colonial India's legacy than Pakistan or Bangladesh.
Russia is the defacto successor state of the USSR. That's not even debatable.
is right in being non-aligned, but should not actively support Russia in this war.
We don't. India has abstained on all UN resolutions against Russia in this war.
“俄罗斯和乌克兰都是苏联的碎片，而苏联是我们的“老朋友”。为什么俄罗斯继承了更多的友谊？”
这就像问为什么印度比巴基斯坦或孟加拉国继承了更多印度殖民时期的遗产。
俄罗斯是苏联的事实上的继承国。这一点完全没有争议。
“在不结盟方面是正确的，但不应该在这场战争中积极支持俄罗斯。”
我们没有（积极支持俄罗斯）。印度在这场战争中对所有针对俄罗斯的联合国决议都投了弃权票。
Russia has inherited everything from USSR. Their UN seat, nukes, debt. Makes sense for them to inherit the alliances as well
Pakistan and Bangladesh were a part of colonial India as well, why shouldn't they get the same credit as India does?
俄罗斯继承了苏联的一切。他们的联合国席位、核弹、债务。他们继承了友谊也是合理的。
巴基斯坦和孟加拉国也是印度殖民地的一部分，为什么他们不能像印度那样获得同样的荣誉？
What credit does India get? Other nations are not so emotional as to consider the existence of "friendship" between nation states, particularly after their very definition changes.
Geo-politics is about strategy, and about recognizing the morality of current situations independent of the past. Ukraine was invaded by Russia, and going by all trends, Russia is going to pay a heavy cost for this.
India would be wise not to pay a cost along with them.
印度有什么荣誉？其他国家不会如此情绪化地考虑民族国家之间“友谊”的存在，尤其是在其定义发生变化之后。
地缘政治是关于战略的，也是关于认识到独立于过去的当前局势的道德性。乌克兰被俄罗斯入侵，从各种趋势来看，俄罗斯将为此付出沉重的代价。
印度不与他们一起付出代价是明智的。
India is considered the birthplace of several religions, the golden bird of the past, one of the ancient civilizations, etc. Mohenjo Daro actually exists in Pakistan and yet is considered a part of ancient 'Indian' civilization at times. Pretty much all achievements pre-colonial era are considered to be Indian now.
Ukraine issue is not something that popped out of the air mah dude. Russians didn't just wake up and decide to invade Ukraine. Their were plenty of 'logical' ways to avoid this and no one could be less bothered to prevent this war.
印度被认为是多个宗教的发源地，是过去的梦想之地，是古代文明之一，等等。摩亨佐达罗实际上存在于巴基斯坦，但有时却被认为是古代“印度”文明的一部分。几乎所有殖民时代前的成就现在都被认为是印度的。
乌克兰问题不是凭空冒出来的，老兄。俄罗斯人不是一觉醒来然后决定入侵乌克兰的。他们有很多“合乎逻辑”的方法来避免这种情况，真的可以的话没有人会不想去阻止这场战争。
Also, it was never about morality. Geopolitics is all about who won. As of right now, whatever US wants is decided to be the moral way and anything that questions their power is immoral. Russia is among the very few oil producers US has no control over. A Russia vs West scenario had been building up for long enough, just that people ignored it because US didn't want people to see it.
另外老兄，如果印度完全与俄罗斯结盟，你怎么看？你真的认为西方愚蠢到让这种事情发生？“强大”的美国减少了对印度的批评是有原因的。他们非常清楚，一个与印度结盟的俄罗斯基本上会把他们的影响力从亚洲大陆上踢开。
另外，这从来不是道德问题。地缘政治的关键在于谁赢了。眼下，美国想要什么就将其定义为道德的，任何质疑他们这么做的都被打成了不道德的。俄罗斯是美国无法控制的极少数石油生产国之一。俄罗斯和西方对峙的局面已经积累了很长时间，只是人们忽略了它，因为美国不想让人们看到它。
Moreover, if you become too independent of the past, it is sure to come back to destroy you. Time is depicted to be a wheel for a reason. Also history is a very important subject.
Anyways, if you would like to counter me on this argument, I am all ears and I would be happy to initiate a healthy debate.
现在，印度已经做出了一个任何有自己意愿的理智国家都会做出的决定。它知道战略是成功的关键，并采取了任何热爱和平的外交国家都会采取的立场。作为世界上最大的民主国家，这个国家已经确保其意识形态符合自己的利益，同时也不会助长战争。
此外，如果你过于独立于过去，它肯定会回来摧毁你。时间被描绘成一个轮子是有原因的。同时，历史也是一门非常重要的学科。
总之，如果你想就这个论点反驳我，我洗耳恭听，我很乐意发起一场健康的辩论。
Russia protected India when the world superpowers sent their carriers against us in 1971. That will not be forgotten.
1971年，当世界超级大国派遣航母对付我们时，俄罗斯保护了印度。这一点将不会被遗忘。
dont forget 7th fleet was armed with nuclear weapons , they werent shy to use it i, they every much wanted to make a statement out of india by bombing like japan .
不要忘了第七舰队配备了核武器，他们并不羞于使用它，他们每个人都想通过像对日本一样的轰炸来表达对印度的不满。
USSR saved India from disappearing from the world map ngl. Also don't forget they used their VETO to help us become a nuclear armed state.
苏联拯救了印度，使其免于从世界地图上消失。也不要忘了他们用他们的否决权来帮助我们成为一个核武国家。
To be honest, India don't have any real friends, India was always alone, USSR supported India coz USA supported Pakistan.
说实话，印度没有任何真正的朋友，印度一直是孤独的，苏联支持印度，只是因为美国支持巴基斯坦。
....If an ultimatium was given and India HAD to choose, do you think it would side with the likes of Russia and China et al or with what are commonly referred to as the western powers?
Given that US and its allies have time and again been on the side of genocide, including arming the Pakistan Army as it launched war against India or when millions of Bangladeshi people were being massacred by said army, it would be borderline insane to side with the so-called western powers. Though, politicians are well capable of achieving that feat.
“....如果下了最后通牒，印度必须做出选择，你认为它会站在俄罗斯和中国等国一边，还是站在通常所说的西方大国一边？”
鉴于美国及其盟友一次又一次地站在种族灭绝的一边，包括在巴基斯坦军队对印度发动战争时为其提供武器，或者当数百万孟加拉国人民被上述军队屠杀时，站在所谓的西方大国一边将是近乎疯狂的。虽然，政治家们很有能力实现这一壮举。
Given that Russia aided India for decades, through thick and thin, it would be an obligation to protect Russian people should it come to that.
It would be unlikely for China to ever be considered a friendly state, unless they renounce their support for the apartheid regime of Pakistan, and make amends. Then, there would be hope for a bilateral accord of friendship.
Until then, stay neutral.
我们不要忘记，伊拉克、阿富汗、叙利亚、利比亚、也门等地的大规模屠杀是美国霸权主义行动的现行例子。而且，如果西摩-赫什的话是可信的，现在欧洲的穷人之所以在寒冷中受苦，是因为北溪管道被美国和挪威在国际恐怖主义行为中炸毁，以从乌克兰战争中获利。
鉴于俄罗斯几十年来对印度的援助，历尽艰辛，如果到了那个时候，保护俄罗斯人民将是一项义务。
中国不可能被视为友好国家，除非他们放弃对巴基斯坦种族隔离政权的支持，并作出补偿。然后，才有希望达成双边友好协议。
在那之前，请保持中立。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
Look at BRICS and ask why was it formed? And why is it still running?
Whatever happens in Ukraine, many of the reasons for why BRICS was formed/exists will remain.
看看金砖国家，自问一下它为什么会形成？以及为什么它还在运行？
无论乌克兰发生了什么，导致金砖国家成立/存在的许多原因都依然存在。
I think India's stance is inevitable. We're still heavily reliant on Russian weaponry (though that's reducing). While in recent years we've tried to pivot away to buying from the west, switching completely is going take money, time and training. Considering that the economy (global and national) is still recovering from covid, things are going to be even slower. Until that switch happens, this tightrope walk is going to continue.
I believe that realistic western observers and diplomats understand that as well.
There is a moral grandstanding from a number of western observers on this issue though which IMO is entirely self serving and unwarranted.
我认为印度的表态是不可避免的。我们仍然严重依赖俄罗斯的武器装备（尽管这正在减少）。虽然近年来我们试图转向从西方购买，但完全转换需要资金、时间和培训。考虑到经济（全球和本国）仍在从经济危机中恢复，事情将变得更加缓慢。在这种转变发生之前，这种走钢丝的做法将继续下去。
我相信，现实的西方观察家和外交官们也明白这一点。
不过，在这个问题上，一些西方观察家在道德上大放厥词，我认为这完全是自私自利和没有根据的。
Need to learn something from Pakistan maybe on this aspect given that it is possibly the only country that has weapons systems from 4 places.
American, European, Chinese and Soviet (through Ukraine).
Like it wouldn't even surprize me if they bought (tried) Indian Arms if India ever became a major seller.
鉴于巴基斯坦可能是唯一一个拥有来自四个地方的武器系统的国家，在这方面也许需要向巴基斯坦学习一些东西。
美国、欧洲、中国和苏维埃（通过乌克兰）。
如果印度成为主要卖家，他们购买（尝试）印度武器，我甚至不会感到惊讶。
We're going in that direction anyway. We have Soviet/Russian, and also French, British and US.
We're all also going in the Pakistan direction on other things where I wish we didn't, but that's a different story
反正我们正往这个方向走。我们有苏联/俄罗斯的武器系统，也有法国、英国和美国的。
在其他事情上，我们也都在朝着巴基斯坦的方向发展，我希望我们别这样，但这是另一个故事。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
its actually quite stupid to buy weapons from too many suppliers because it increases the overhead cost of maintaining different weapon systems with different spare parts. Its already difficult for India. We need to choose western weapons as they are of better quality
从太多的供应商那里购买武器实际上是非常愚蠢的，因为它增加了维护不同武器系统和不同备件的间接成本。这对印度来说已经很困难了。我们需要选择西方的武器，因为它们的质量更好。
One word. Kissinger. That thug along with Nixon is responsible for much of the shameful past of American immoral interventions in Latin America and rest of the world. Nixon and Kissinger pivoted US policy towards China, and India then very poor was expendable. During that NAM movement took hold for decades. India formed a bond with Soviet unx, Iran, Iraq, and many leftist countries. When India stole American supplied spent nuclear fuel to enrich It and make nuclear bombs U.S. applied sanctions. Russians Shaun came to rescue India. Their policy was love any country that the west makes an out cast of.
一个词：基辛格。这个暴徒和尼克松一起，要对美国在拉丁美洲和世界其他地区大部分不道德的干预行为的可耻的过去负责。尼克松和基辛格将美国的政策转向中国，而当时非常贫穷的印度是可以牺牲的。在此期间，不结盟运动持续了数十年。印度与苏联、伊朗、伊拉克和许多左翼国家结下了不解之缘。当印度偷了美国提供的废核燃料来进行浓缩并制造核弹时，美国实施了制裁。俄罗斯人肖恩来营救了印度。他们的政策是爱护任何被西方抛弃的国家。
今天的印度已经不再遵循尼赫鲁时代的社会主义了。它现在是一个大得多的经济体，不打算偏袒任何一方。印度虽然按人均GDP计算仍然很穷，但按人口计算，它的经济规模非常大，而且还有十年的增长期。它将保持专注，避免翻车。因此，虽然印度人可能会指责乌克兰人，但在内心深处他们确实同情被杀害的乌克兰平民。但基于之前政策的惯性我们还是会与俄罗斯站在一起。如果共和党人赢得总统职位，美国很快就会放弃乌克兰。但克里姆林宫的政策不会改变。
展望未来，大国形势正在迅速变化。美国的债务正在爆炸性增长。美国正在迅速老化。由于政治原因，合法移民配额自1990年代以来没有改变。美国人还没有意识到它的统治正在结束。中国正在成为主导力量，中国拥有俄罗斯。最终，美国将需要印度和欧洲来维持其软实力地位。印度也无法在与中国发生战争时向俄罗斯求助。局势会让美国和印度站在同一阵线上。但现在肯定不会。
The concept of Soft Power is exaggerated and hyped too much.
However whatever it is, Russia has it in India. Even grandma's have positive or non-negative outlook about Russia even when they know nothing about the context of topic Russia would be involved.
This cuts across political & idealogical divide in society as well.
And the reason is simple and ties into your hypothetical question.
软实力的概念被夸大了，而且被夸大得太多了。
然而，不管它是什么，俄罗斯在印度确实拥有它（软实力）。即使是老奶奶们对俄罗斯也有着积极或至少不消极的看法，虽然她们对俄罗斯涉及的话题背景一无所知。
这跨越了社会中的政治和意识形态的鸿沟。
原因很简单，与你假设的问题有关。
Respect is also why China-US relations have tanked. West/US Fundamentally Do Not respect China and Chinese people. Everything that is happening in US-China dynamic is a high abstraction layer arising from that base reality.
This pestering is what forced India to enter the India-Soviet Friendship treaty. India didn't want to do that but it had little space to breathe so had to.
俄罗斯/苏联从没有强迫印度做出选择。美国/西方则一直在纠缠印度，好像它还是一个殖民地。苏联/俄国人把印度当作一个成年的、成熟的国家。尊重的意义是无法在这里简单描述的。
尊重也是中美关系恶化的原因。西方/美国从根本上不尊重中国和中国人民。在美中关系中发生的一切，都是从这个基本现实中产生的高度抽象层。
这种纠缠是迫使印度加入印苏友好条约的原因。印度并不想这样做，但它没有什么喘息的空间，所以不得不这样做。
West is done. Historic aberration has ended like all aberrations do. Reversion to mean has already begun.
Asia is where action has always been and still is.
如果西方试图做它一直在做的事情，那还会发生类似的情况，因为它是病态的，西方会再次这样做。印度将再次拒绝它，要么保持中立（超级困难和自我伤害），要么选择俄罗斯-中国集团，因为那是未来。
西方已经结束了。像所有偏差一样，历史偏差已经结束。均值回归已经开始。
亚洲一直是发源地，现在也是。
Russia/Soviets didn't force India to choose. US/West was always pestering India like it was still a colony. Soviet/Russians treated India as an adult and mature State. Relevance of Respect is something that can not be described in brief comment here.
This! Very much! Not asking for any military bases. No sanctions. Siding with our stance in UN. Nothing on our nuclear tests. Providing lots of tech. And not lecturing us.
These are very important details that stop India-Russia relationships from going sour.
When they do wrong, we stay away. But India will not sanction or ban them. We live in Asian continent. We need good allies.
Oh btw, our first astronaut in space was sent by USSR! Our future "vyomonauts" for the ambitious "gaganyan" space mission are currently being trained in Russia.
“俄罗斯/苏联并没有强迫印度做出选择。美国/西方一直在纠缠印度，好像它还是一个殖民地。苏联/俄国人把印度当作一个成熟的国家。尊重的意义是无法在这里简单描述的。”
加一! 非常赞同! 不要求任何军事基地。没有制裁。在联合国站在我们的立场上。对我们的核试验没有任何要求。提供大量技术。而不是教训我们。
这些都是非常重要的细节，可以阻止印度和俄罗斯的关系变坏。
当他们做错事时，我们会远离。但印度不会制裁或禁止他们。我们生活在亚洲大陆。我们需要好的盟友。
哦，对了，我们在太空中的第一位宇航员是由苏联派来的！我们未来的为了雄心勃勃的“gaganyan”太空任务的宇航员，目前正在俄罗斯接受培训。
Most Indians would have a positive outlook. The third world looked at the Soviet unx through a postcolonial lens. Communism meant equality, freedom from colonizers etc. They did not experience what Eastern Europe did. I have been to these countries and seen the KGB museums and prisons, the exhibits on forced deportation, demographic changes, labor camps are ghastly. I understand why Warsaw pact nations joined NATO. However, would some average small town Indian understand that? Would you expect an US or EU citizen to sympathize or understand the baggage of the colonial past and poverty faced by Africa or Asia?
多数印度人（对俄罗斯）都会有积极的看法。第三世界会通过后殖民的眼光看待苏联。共产主义意味着平等，从殖民者手中获得自由等等。他们没有经历过东欧的经历。我去过这些国家，看过克格勃的博物馆和监狱，关于强制驱逐、人口变化、劳改营的展品令人毛骨悚然。我理解为什么华约国家都加入了北约。但是，一些普通的小镇印度人会理解吗？你会期望美国或欧盟公民同情或理解非洲或亚洲所面临的殖民历史和贫困的包袱吗？
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以气候变化和碳排放为例，大家都知道这种以消费为基础的生活方式和无休止的季度增长是不可持续的。虽然富裕国家的人们可能会同情这里的穷人和可怜的饥民，但他们不会为了让印度/非洲的人们也可以过上西方人那种资源密集型生活方式而剧烈改变自己的生活方式。同样，正常的印度人不会想要战争和死亡，也会同情乌克兰，希望死亡和破坏结束，但他们可能不会为那么远的人做出自我牺牲。
India has great person to person relation with the west. Ask anyone and they would love to move to US, UK, Australia, Canada or Western Europe. People love English language movies, music, TV shows, they watch/support sport leagues and teams. English language and culture is aspirational. Conservatives in India cry western culture is destroying traditions. No one says Russian culture is spoiling the kids.
他们仍然会把俄罗斯视为在联合国为印度使用否决权、帮助建立重工业、在美国支持巴基斯坦时支持军队的国家。俄罗斯的帮助也是没有附加条件的，而且被认为是更加一致和可靠的。
印度与西方有着良好的人际关系。问任何一个人，他们都愿意搬到美国、英国、澳大利亚、加拿大或西欧。人们喜欢英语电影、音乐、电视节目，他们观看/支持体育联盟和球队。英语语言和文化令人向往。印度的保守派正在大声疾呼称西方文化正在破坏传统。没有人说俄罗斯文化糟蹋了孩子们。
然而，在地缘政治的情况下，政府与西方的关系并不总是最好的，它们被视为对印度要求苛刻且不平等看待印度。一个例子是印度曾经从伊朗和委内瑞拉购买石油，这些石油很便宜，但在美国制裁之后，就买不到了。由于中国在巴基斯坦建设港口，印度也在伊朗开发港口和走廊，但由于伊朗受到制裁，工作进展缓慢，伊朗就威胁要让中国参与该项目。中国凭借其经济影响力猛然介入。所以说对西方有利的事情不一定对印度有利。