尽管俄罗斯人是西方的白人同胞，为什么还是厌恶他们？（下）
Why does the West hate Russia even though Russians are their white brothers?
译文简介
这不是恨，这是钱的问题。一切都和钱有关。即使你回到罗马时代，也是为了钱。
正文翻译
Why does the West hate Russia even though Russians are their white brothers?
尽管俄罗斯人是西方的白人同胞，为什么还是厌恶他们？（下）
评论翻译
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The West doesn’t hate Russia. Russia has tens of trillions of dollars of resources.
To move the needle, The US and the EU need to acquire something big.
For instance, even if the US takes over Panama, it makes no difference to the US budget. Whatever Panama provides the US won’t even be enough to round up in the US budget.
So there are only a few nations that are big enough to plunder. Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, and maybe some of the rich Middle Eastern states that has oil and gas.
Oh and the EU is ripe for plunder by the US. That’s it. So it’s not hate. It’s money. It’s always been about money. Even if you go back to the Roman times, it was about money.
西方并不恨俄罗斯。俄罗斯拥有数万亿美元的资源。
为了改变现状，美国和欧盟需要收购一些大公司。例如，即使美国接管了巴拿马，对美国的预算也没有任何影响。无论巴拿马向美国提供什么，都不足以填补美国的预算。
所以只有少数几个国家大到可以进行掠夺。俄罗斯、中国、沙特阿拉伯，也许还有一些富有的中东国家，它们拥有石油和天然气。
哦，对了，美国掠夺欧盟的时机已经成熟。就是这样。所以这不是恨，这是钱的问题。一切都和钱有关。即使你回到罗马时代，也是为了钱。
”Being white works against Russians because you can’t counter anti-Russian hate speech by calling it hate speech since it’s targeted against white people. According to Americans, white people can’t be the target of hate speech, because reasons“
True. On online fora, I happened to hear anti-Russian racist rants they would be considered politically incorrect if applied against any non-White nationality. Including, for instance, claiming that “Russians are genetically driven to hate Jews and anyone who doesn’t share their narrow worldview”.
Just replace “Russians” with “Arabs” (most of which are actually “White”, but are normally not considered such), “Chinese” or “Indians” and this lovely person would probably be forced out of his job.
Moreover, I noticed there is a rather widespread attitude among Americans: if you don’t like us, we’ll hate you. Many of them sincerely believe they represent the Good Guys, while whoever opposed them is intrinsically evil. This lack of understanding of other cultures and viewpoints helps to explain not only their failures in foreign policy, but also the RAV misrepresentation of America’s enemy in cinema.
“事实上，作为白人对俄罗斯人不利，因为你不能通过称之为仇恨言论来抨击反俄仇恨言论，因为它是针对白人的。根据美国人的说法，白人不能成为仇恨言论的目标，因为有原因。”
没错。在网上论坛，我碰巧听到反俄种族主义咆哮，如果针对任何非白人国籍的人，他们会被认为是政治不正确的。例如，包括声称“俄罗斯人从基因上决定仇恨犹太人和任何与他们狭隘世界观不同的人”。只要把“俄罗斯人”换成“阿拉伯人”(其中大部分实际上是“白人”，但通常不被认为是白人)、“中国人”或“印度人”，这个可爱的人可能就会被迫离职。
此外，我注意到美国人有一种相当普遍的态度：如果你不喜欢我们，我们就会恨你。他们中的许多人真诚地认为他们代表的是好人，而反对他们的人本质上是邪恶的。这种对其他文化和观点的缺乏理解，不仅有助于解释他们在外交政策上的失败，也有助于解释RAV在电影中对美国敌人的误传。
Replacing it with “Chinese” is OK. The Western rules for racism include a convenient carve out for Russians and Chinese. It’s rather convenient that those are the two main rivals of Western power.
把它换成“中国人”没问题。西方的种族主义规则为俄罗斯人和中国人提供了“便利”。这是西方大国的两个主要对手，这是相当方便的。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
“Russia is the only nation in Europe with the potential to challenge American hegemony"
LOL Seriously? A nation with the GDP of Spain?
Might be that they are “unloved" because they are an imperialist genocidal state with a sick ideology? No, no…it must be Hollywood
“俄罗斯是欧洲唯一有潜力挑战美国霸权的国家。”
哈哈哈，认真的?一个GDP和西班牙一样的国家?
也许他们“不被爱”是因为他们是一个有着病态意识形态的帝国主义种族灭绝国家?不，不，一定是好莱坞。
You made a good point.
After all, who can ignore Spain’s vast nuclear arsenal?
你说得对。
毕竟，谁能忽视西班牙庞大的核武库呢?
Tell me then, why does NATO still exist?
The Soviet unx is gone. If Russia is not considered a threat then NATO should have been disbanded a long time ago. Instead, it keeps expanding toward Russia’s borders.
那告诉我，北约为什么还存在?
苏联已经不复存在。如果俄罗斯不被视为威胁，那么北约早就应该解散了。相反，它不断向俄罗斯边境扩张。
Lol this again. If only I earn a dollar everytime someone brings up the old trite comparison of Spain's GDP to Russia's.
One would be absolutely reasonable to start asking why and how did a mere 1 trillion economy is surviving so well after nearly a year of being subjected to all sorts of sanctions, some even tout it as nuclear type of sanctions.
On the other hand, those ones dishing out these sanctions are mostly suffering in record inflation, and economic and social challenges.
Russia should had ran out of missiles and ammunition by March 2022 if we go by the same sources disparaging Russia's economy to the size of Spain, yet every week we are hearing hundreds of missiles strikes across Ukraine…hmmm what gives?
哈哈，又来了。要是每次有人拿西班牙和俄罗斯的GDP做老生常谈的比较，我就能赚一美元就好了。
人们完全有理由开始问，为什么一个只有1万亿美元的经济体在遭受各种制裁近一年之后还能这么好地生存下来，有些人甚至把它吹捧为核武器级别的制裁。
另一方面，那些实施制裁的国家大多面临着创纪录的通货膨胀和经济社会挑战。
俄罗斯的导弹和弹药应该在2022年3月耗尽，如果我们根据同样的消息来源，贬低俄罗斯的经济规模相当于西班牙，但每周我们都听到数百枚导弹袭击乌克兰……嗯，这是怎么回事?
BASF already voted with their feet in moving one of their largest factory to China, citing unsustainable conditions in Germany.
So maybe, just maybe when SHTF, hard commodities like food energy water are what keep human lives moving and in that, Russia have those in abundance and highly self sufficient, and that alone makes them a formidable power.
或者也许，只是也许。我们中的许多人，包括过去的我自己，都被西方主流媒体所欺骗，认为GDP是虚假的，尤其是西方发达经济体主要是由服务业和不断变化的数字支撑的。以德国为例，我们许多人认为德国的繁荣是因为她的创新和制造业实力。然而，这场战争严重暴露了她的弱点，她如此依赖廉价的俄罗斯能源，以保持其运营成本的竞争力。
巴斯夫(BASF)已经投票决定将其最大的工厂之一迁往中国，理由是德国的环境不可持续。
所以也许，只是也许，当SHTF，像食物、能源和水这样的硬商品是维持人类生活的必需品时，俄罗斯拥有丰富的、高度自给自足的商品，这就使他们成为一个强大的大国。
Are you seriously saying that in Europe we need Hollywood movies to dislike Russians? That we distrust them because of how they are portrayed in American movies?
你真的在说欧洲需要好莱坞电影才会讨厌俄罗斯人吗?我们不信任他们是因为他们在美国电影中的形象?
You’re what, German?
What beef does your country have with the Russians? Why would your countrymen have to hate the Russians?
你是德国人?
你们国家和俄罗斯人有什么过节?为什么你的同胞要恨俄国人?
According to popular Western racial theories, Russians are not often considered to be white. This is largely due to the pseudoscientific explanations that attribute this to the supposed fact that Russians are a variety of "Asian hordes", often assumed to be of Mongol or other related descent. When they refer to "Mongolian origin" it connotes a lower status than themselves.
As for Russia, this coloristic racial terminology is completely foreign to traditional Russian culture. In Russia, there is no concept of a brotherhood based on skin color. Today these ideas are known in Russia, but they are still extremely counter-traditional.
This idea of coloristic classification originated in Western Europe primarily as a means to justify the exploitation and oppression of colonized peoples. It was used to rationalize treating people differently based on their perceived race. While some individuals in the West may be attempting to challenge these racial theories, their approach is often misguided and it is uncommon for it to lead to an improvement in their perceptions of Russians.
根据西方流行的种族理论，俄罗斯人通常不被认为是白人。这在很大程度上是由于伪科学的解释，他们认为俄罗斯人是各种各样的“亚洲部落”，通常被认为是蒙古或其他相关的后裔。当他们提到“蒙古血统”时，这意味着地位比他们自己低。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
至于俄罗斯，这种带有色彩的种族术语与俄罗斯传统文化完全格格不入。在俄罗斯，没有基于肤色的兄弟情谊的概念。如今，这些思想在俄罗斯广为人知，但它们仍然是极端反传统的。
这种肤色分类的想法起源于西欧，主要是作为一种为剥削和压迫殖民地人民辩护的手段。它被用来根据人们所感知的种族来合理地对待他们。虽然西方的一些人可能试图挑战这些种族理论，但他们的做法往往是错误的，而且很少会改善他们对俄罗斯人的看法。
Some guys on the left just have bad haircuts.
图片左边的人只是发型不太好看。
That’s not even remotely true—all the guys on the left would be viewed as White in the United States and Western Europe. The divide between Russia and the West is a political one, not a racial one. People in Western Europe don’t like Russians because of the actions of the government of Russia. For what it’s worth, people in Western Europe also often look down on people from the United States because of the actions of the United States’ government (and United States’ tourists).
这根本不是事实。
所有左边的人在美国和西欧都被视为白人。俄罗斯和西方之间的分歧是政治上的，而不是种族上的。因为俄罗斯的所作所为，西欧人不喜欢俄罗斯人。
不管怎样，西欧人也经常因为美国政府(和美国游客)的行为而看不起美国人。
You said that all of the guys on the left would be considered White in Western Europe, well, I suppose you aren't aware of the hate crimes targeted towards Slavs in UK.
你说左边的所有人在西欧都被认为是白人，好吧，我想你不知道英国针对斯拉夫人的仇恨犯罪。
If this was really a hate crime, it was not about Slavs generally but about the big Polish community in the UK and fear/ hate of the particular groups in the UK from changing of culture, environment, losing jobs, and so on… this happens always after bigger migrations - look at the history in the US when bigger numbers of Italians/ Irish/ Jews/ … were coming and the present communities felt threatened and were losing their influence…
如果这真的是仇恨犯罪，那么它不是关于斯拉夫人的，而是关于英国庞大的波兰社区，以及对英国特定群体的恐惧/仇恨，因为文化、环境、失业等等的改变……
这种情况总是发生在更大规模的移民之后——看看美国的历史，当时大量的意大利人/爱尔兰人/犹太人……涌入美国，当下社区感到威胁，正在失去影响力……
The guys on the right side look like potential candidates for ISIS leadership. All they need is dark thick long beard. They can replace the Baghdadi fella.
右边的人看起来像是ISIS领导人的潜在候选人。他们只需要又黑又长的胡子。他们可以取代巴格达迪。
Well, with the eyes of a Western European, the photos of the Left Group look as if they were all taken in the penitentiary and drank too much alcohol. (no joke!)
好吧，以西欧人的眼光来看，左边那群人的照片看起来就像他们都是在监狱里拍的，喝了太多酒。(没开玩笑！)
Exactly! Strange choice to illustrate Russians with these mugshots. I have seen a lot of them and based on my experience I can not but agree with your observation. The sextion definitely doesn't represents a trustable cross section of the modern Russian society.
完全正确！用这些面部照片来展示俄罗斯人，奇怪的选择。
我见过很多这样的人，根据我的经验，我不得不同意你的看法。这个选择绝对不能代表现代俄罗斯社会的一个值得信任的横截面。
By the slavs are a lot of faces that looks like in western europian locals. By the way the face of Putin is more friendly then the face of Trump biden and Ursula. And Zelensky looks like galustyan an Armenian comic. Have peace we White are looking good and have the same elementary needs.
斯拉夫人有很多脸看起来像西欧当地人。在比利时，有个跟普京长得很像的人，也是本地人。顺便说一下，普京的脸比特朗普、拜登和厄休拉的脸更友好。泽连斯基看起来像亚美尼亚喜剧演员。
There is certainly something very characteristic for recent Russian culture in your post: feelings of victimhood and self-pity
在你的文章中，确实有一些最近俄罗斯文化的特征:受害者的感觉和自怜。
Not really. Western racial theories depict Belorussians as pure Slavs separate from other Russian ethnic groups, to exploit the theory similarly as in Ukraine, and often portrayed as distinct and unconnected from Russians.
不是的。西方的种族理论将白俄罗斯人描述为与其他俄罗斯民族分离的纯粹斯拉夫人，这与乌克兰的理论相似，而且经常被描述为与俄罗斯人截然不同，没有联系。
Dumbest meme ever. Some guys on the right look part black or worse than the “Slavs” on the right while the Slavs are just defined as being bald, having bad haircuts or looking criminal which I guess makes them “non-White”.
史上最蠢的表情包。右边的一些人看起来部分是黑人，或者比左边的“斯拉夫人”更糟糕，而斯拉夫人只是被定义为秃顶，发型糟糕或看起来像罪犯，我猜这让他们成为“非白人”。
It's even a meme genre actually:
实际上，这甚至是一种表情包类型:
Achilles Monomaxos
American usually just wear hats (baseball hats), most of them dont style their hair. Left would be europe
美国人通常只戴帽子(棒球帽)，大多数人不做发型。左边是欧洲。
« According to popular Western racial theories, Russians are not often considered to be white. »
I think you’re mixing up the centuries. That kind of thinking have been out of fashion for almost 100 years.
“根据西方流行的种族理论，俄罗斯人通常不被认为是白人”
我觉得你把年代弄混了。这种想法已经过时将近100年了。
Notreally: https://pdxscholar.library.pdx.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1128&context=socwork_fac
A century ago, the use of American racial terminology was not yet prent.
不是真的，链接略
一个世纪以前，美国种族术语的使用还不普遍。
Neither is it now, which is clear if you read the introduction or the executive summary of the report you have lixed to.
现在也不普遍，如果你阅读了你链接到的报告的介绍或执行摘要，这一点就很清楚了。
What about you?
It is a little unusual to consider the Slavic community as a community of color, for conventionally the community is considered White, and in all databases reviewed for this research, the community is included within the White community. So why this variation? The Slavic community has arrived in this part of the USA facing similar forms of discrimination and exclusion as did the Polish, Irish and Italians many generations ago. These communities struggled with language, employment, education and social exclusion. In much the same way, the Slavic community faces these barriers to parity and to equity. As a result, the Coalition of Communities of Color has formally recognized the Slavic community as a community of color.
In reality, these ideas are far more prent than this polite public report implies. As you can imagine, in the United States, things are not discussed as delicately in everyday life, especially when it comes to Russians. I am not familiar with the current situation in France, but you could let me know if there is any research on this topic.
你有读吗？
“将斯拉夫社区视为有色人种社区有点不寻常，因为传统上这个社区被认为是白人，在本研究回顾的所有数据库中，这个社区都被包括在白人社区中。那么为什么会出现这种变化呢?斯拉夫社区来到美国的这一地区，面临着与许多代以前的波兰人、爱尔兰人和意大利人类似的歧视和排斥。这些社区在语言、就业、教育和社会排斥方面苦苦挣扎。同样，斯拉夫社区也面临着平等方面的障碍。因此，有色社区联盟正式承认斯拉夫社区是一个有色社区。”
事实上，这些想法比这份礼貌的公开报告所暗示的要普遍得多。你可以想象，在美国，人们在日常生活中不会那么小心翼翼地讨论事情，尤其是涉及到俄罗斯人时。我不太了解法国的现状，如果有这方面的研究可以告诉我。
It is a little unusual to consider the Slavic community as a community of color
An organisation in the state of Oregon has recognized slavs as community of color. Could as well have been Orion… Your’re making a hen of a feather.
I’m no scholar and I know nothing of any such notions in research in France or my home country Sweden. But if it was “popular” to see Slavs or Russians as non-white I should have at least heard about it.
“把斯拉夫社区看作是一个有色人种社区有点不寻常”
俄勒冈州的一个组织承认斯拉夫人是有色人种。奥瑞恩也可能是如此……你真是小题大做了。
我不是学者，在法国和我的祖国瑞典的研究中，我对这样的概念一无所知。但如果将斯拉夫人或俄罗斯人视为非白种人是“流行的”，我至少应该听说过。
Well, my experience with Western Europeans shows me that their ideas about us are a little unusual, especially now. And they are largely determined by the United States today.
我与西欧人相处的经历告诉我，他们对我们的看法有点不同寻常，尤其是现在。如今，他们在很大程度上由美国决定。
Like what? That Belarusians dominate synchronized swimming and have a love for potatoes (something we Swedes share)?
The Russian reputation will take decades to repaire after the war is over. And for good reasons. Some people here on Quora gets carry away in the safety behind their keyboards and writes a lot of crap about orcs and stuff. That does not really reflect the view of the western population.
Care to elaborate a bit?
比如说？白俄罗斯人是花样游泳的霸主，他们喜欢吃土豆(这是我们瑞典人共有的)?
战争结束后，俄罗斯的声誉需要几十年才能恢复。这是有原因的。Quora上的一些人在键盘后的安全中忘乎所以，写了很多关于半兽人之类的废话。这并不能真正反映西方人的观点。
你愿意具体说说吗？
Well, everything just goes to this specific idea that you are involved in some world elite (North American political mainstream), whose recognition everyone else will be looking for.
This is still very much more pathological than jokes about potatoes.
好吧，一切都只是为了这个特定的想法：你加入了一些世界精英(北美政治主流)（的社会里），其他人都在寻找他们的认可。
这比关于土豆的笑话更病态。
原创翻译：龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.cn 转载请注明出处
I personally reject colorized race in favor of more individualistic approaches to localized ancestral forms of race, surrounded by perception of nature vs nurture behavior with a preference to nature explanation and the what jobs, morals, skills, and preferences in life they will do in likelihood of race, than what their climatic environmental induced phenotypes adapt them into the conditioning which is a side affect of race rather than a cause. What does a person from Afghanistan have in common with a person from Morocco outside of skincolor?
I won’t even say racial colorism is western. The Spaniards and Italians don’t use this.
我个人反对以肤色区分人种，支持更个人主义的方法来研究本地化的祖先种族形式。围绕着对自然与后天行为的感知，偏好于自然解释，以及它们在种族可能性中会起着什么作用——工作、道德、技能和生活中的偏好。而不是为适应气候环境而诱导的肤色变化，这是种族的一个副体现而不是原因。一个来自阿富汗的人和一个来自摩洛哥的人除了肤色有什么共同之处?
我甚至不会说基于肤色的种族歧视是西方的，因为西班牙人和意大利人不这么说。
This tends to just be Germanic or Germanic influenced peoples usage.
otherwise we could say medi Arabs were racist based on color as they treated Dravidians and Sub-Saharans worst than they treated light olive Adnanite Arabs who were in positions higher than dark brown Qahtanite Arabs.
But we don’t say that as it’s really pioneered though not the first done by Germanic northwest Europeans.
Though rare, less than 10%. I’ve met Persians, Turks, Arabs, Jews, and Berbers who were as light or lighter than me. As coloring features is a geographic frequency not a permanent racial attribute.
罗曼民族和凯尔特民族不这么说。这往往只是日耳曼语或受日耳曼语影响的人们才会说的。
否则，我们可以说中世纪的阿拉伯人是基于肤色的种族主义者，因为他们对待德拉威人和撒哈拉以南地区的人比他们对待浅橄榄色的阿德纳阿拉伯人更糟糕，后者的地位高于深棕色的卡塔阿拉伯人。但我们不能这么说，尽管他们确实是（基于肤色区分种族的）先驱者，西北边的日耳曼欧洲人不是第一个这么做的。
虽然很少见，不到10%。我见过波斯人、土耳其人、阿拉伯人、犹太人和柏柏尔人，他们（的肤色）和我一样浅，甚至比我还浅，因为肤色特征是地理因素导致的，而不是永久的种族属性。
To me as Asian, Slavs or Americans are the same.
对我来说，作为亚洲人，斯拉夫人和美国人都是一样的。
Yes, I understand that you may not share the same view, but Western perspectives on Slavic people can often be quite unusual or misguided. I wanted to bring attention to a specific issue that may not be widely known or understood by others around the world.
是的，我知道你们可能不同意我的观点，但西方对斯拉夫人的看法往往是不寻常的或被误导的。我想引起人们对一个具体问题的关注，这个问题可能不被世界各地的其他人广泛了解或理解。